Whysnow, you've been in this conversation since the get go. It seems there has been a deluge recently of guys wanting wholesale changes in the game itself. We know that ship has sailed. After the Mgc, and talking to the guys, I think what you see is what you get. I lot of this recent conversation is wasted time. It is what it is. In or out. There are plenty people in line. If your money is better spent else where so be it.

Agreed. Feedback from good players was good, so I assume
- they noticed these targets
- they realized how to deal with them...
- (it might take longer for me but...) I expect to do as well

It is either too early or too late to criticize this element.

- Too late because it is known for years (they were there on the whiteboard pictures I had in 2012), and changing this element is simply not possible at this stage. I understand when people are complaining about plastics or UV - these are fixable issues.
- Too early because we are not giving scores / marks to this game yet. We will be delighted to hear about DreamDR feedback then.

I'm still waiting for a "good hd" video from Kevin for the game and also some answers to previously posted questions.

Just got an email from Kevin asking for payment for production. Looks like it's all systems go for May

If you don't mind my asking, where are you in the production line?

Anyone in the Detroit area have a Predator on order?

Do you consider Windsor the Detroit area? If so…then yes.

Me too, but now even more torn.

UV from all reviews seems to still be an issue and no official word from skitB if this is going to be addressed or "it is what it is" - not working. Kevin?

I have been waiting to hear back too...Ill hope Kevin will pick up the phone later...for me, and maybe not others, this is important.

Kind of a bummer to hear considering no feedback from SkitB on the concerns from recent shows. No final video either.

Only thing I see is having protective shields built in areas where the ball can smash through plastics (ala Bally mid 80s Heavy Metal Meltdown style) What I am referring to is something similar to how the ship is protected in POTC or even just raised jungle toys to try and keep out the ball from other areas. I understand the targets are there for that intended reason of the designer but I am more concerned about wild shots because they are so close to the flippers. Because of the long shots needed to get up the ramps it will create wild shots bouncing because of the strength of the coil needed for the flippers to make it up those ramps. Something needs to be in the empty spots and there are a lot of them.

I've got one in Canton. I'm #33 in production order, but haven't received any requested payment yet. I'm still on the fence to see how all of the issues are worked out - I got a few games on at MPE, but not enough time to make a solid decision either way.

Scott

Will be playing it at Allentown in 2 weeks. Hope to open it up and look around inside too. Will take pictures if I do.

-Jim

Well, i got the email too and last time I saw my build order I was around #80 in production...

I got the email as well. I don't know what my production order number is, but my game number is 154, so it would surprise me if I was near the front. I emailed to ask for clarification.

For economies of scale it would make sense for Skit-B to order parts for all 250 games at once which would likely mean collecting funds from a majority of buyer's prior to production? Or are they only ordering enough to build small batches at a time?

Unfortunately that would be dramatically different than what was the original agreement and likely would not work for many people.

The original argeement is $250 deposit, half of remainder when the game is ready to be produced and the other half when the game is ready for delivery. They have said they will be building in batches of 10-20 games so I can not imagine them asking for money from more than 40-60 people, which would allow them to build the original batch plus the next 2 or 3 batches so they can keep things moving. They also need to demonstrate that they are able to build the production game and get a batch into hands of paid owners relatively quickly if they want to maintain the business model they have been putting forth.

Hopefully they will provide some better clarification and communication SOON. They promised a video prior to MGC and that did not happen so at minimum they should be letting peopel know when they will see a video and a final procution game. Kevein pointed out that there are some changes to the one from MGC so I would assume we can all see those changes and the "real" completed game before actually sending in more $$?

As much as I want to see Skit-B succeed, I have to admit that Kevin asking for final payments from people without the promised video, and the constructive feedback and reasonable questions brought up in this thread being met without any response for 18+ days (not that I'm counting!), is probably more disappointing than what could be assumed at this point to be the nearly complete failure of the UV effect.

Even a complete rejection of criticism along the lines of, "Lighting, plastics and UV are all in their final state, and no changes are going to happen. I don't have time to provide the list with the video previously promised. I think the game is kick ass and that's good enough for me. I hope everyone enjoys their purchase.", would be appreciated because at least we'd know where the project stands.

completely agree

Wow we agree.

A video is not hard to do, the game has been 'done' for two months now for Pete's sake.

I hope you're right, especially if that's how it was written up in the agreement. I just hope they had a strong business and financial plan put into place before they came up with the terms of the agreement. Even if they are only building 10-20 games at a time there are still likely quite a few parts (especially custom parts) that they will need to order all 250 for up front for vs. 20 at a time. Their first 10-20 games will be their most expensive units to produce and likewise they may have to go a bit further down the list to collect more of the half-down payments up front. The best thing for Skit-B to do at this point would be to clearly communicate what their plan is going forward to the group in case it's changed slightly.-and also a really good/high quality gameplay video would do wonders to make buyer's make an informed decision.

I'm sure I'll get ripped to shreds for this, but if they're asking for money for production now, then they OWE us a video. There seems to be many guys that are on the fence and aren't able to play the finished product, myself included. I took time off work to play it at Expo, and we all know what happened there. I just want to see and hear the pin by itself, not drowned out by other pins. I've read all the reviews, now I just want to see it in action.

(Flame suit on)

I would hope so too, but it's actually the last thing I would expect from a couple of pinball enthusiasts embarking on their very first foray into pinball manufacturing.

How can they make educated guestimates on a bunch of things they have no experience with? They initially thought it would only take a few months to get the prototype solid and begin setting up for production, that was two years ago.

At this point I think they should be able to see what their needs are to get the things produced. If the original agreement does not provide enough resources to produce the games, I would suggest they communicate this and provide an alternate arrangement, along with a video of the "finished" game so that we can make an educated decision.

I, for one, want the game to be produced. If that requires making an additional deposit, so be it. I'm even willing to do it with no additional information (ie video) if the deposit is 100% refundable if I am not happy with the finished product, depending on how much the deposit is. This way they can get additional funding to produce the game (and perhaps get a little more time to fix any remaining issues) without feeling forced to proclaim the game finished just to get the money to move forward.

I would expect any changes to the payment plan to cause some people to drop out, but the machine is looking pretty good and with the large number of people on the wait list, I don't think there is much risk to SkitB if they agree to refund any deposits made by those who are not satisfied with the finished game.

Didn't Kevin already post a "Mission Complete" video about 2 months ago of the supposed final version? Has anything changed on the game since then?

At minimum I was told the slot that the 2 center target comes through would be made width appropriate (the current prototype game at MGC the slot was the dimension needed for 2 large rectangular targets and WAY too big for the small circular ones).

I also can only assume that some sort of change is coming for the UV light or ink effect. At minimum some communication to state if it is not changing is appropraite. What is currently on the prototype at MGC was not worthwhile and they would be better off just removing the lights and saving $$$ if that is the end product.

Communication is the real key at this stage.

I want this game, but would be hard pressed to provide ANY more $$$ with the lack of communication and no actual contract for what the finished product will be. I am happy to provide more refundable deposit or even non-refundable payment if the communication is there and I have a contract for what I am getting in return for my money.

Have you looked at that video? Or was it a glow ball display? I forget.

If I recall 80% of the video was in total darkness! I mean just a dark game with glow balls. If I recall, the video did not display one made ramp shot, not one made loop, not even sure if I saw one shot to the hole.

'mission complete' video didn't show anything worth seeing. Plus things have changed since 'mission complete' such as the light tube. Hard to tell if anything else as we never did se any high res pics which I think Kevin said he would do.

He said the 'mission complete' video was quick and dirty since he was trying to get something out quick, but that does not excuse the next 50+ days with no real pics or real video of the game.

Capitalization is being handled in 'blocks' of customers in order to tackle our assembly goal.

This is what Kevin wrote so it is pretty clear in my opinion that just those pinheads have gotten this mail who are in the First batch(es).

I understand that People get excited when it comes to pay a larger sum. I am fully paid btw and though I am Not nervous as I trust Kevin I also wish he would give some final, clear Information.

...On the Fence.......

on the fence.jpg

Me too.

I don't question that capitalization is being handled in blocks of customers, but what wouldn't surprise me is if these early 'blocks' are much larger than originally anticipated to help front some of the up-front costs that come along with starting up a company. The business plan that Skit-B came up with very much fits a JIT production philosophy, but in reality the pinball business is almost always an EOQ model of production which makes more sense when your dealing with a fixed number of games and don't have to pay additional storage costs to house the extra inventory. Ordering things like custom ramps, metal protectors, cabinet decals, cabinet legs, playfields, etc. is assuredly less expensive if you order them in large quantities vs. small batches of 10 or 20. As a result your fixed costs are high before you even start production. They might already have $200-$300K in up front costs right away to pay for the parts, tooling, development costs, warehouse space, etc. before the first game even hits the line. That money has to come from somewhere, and it isn't likely that only 40 payments of $2250 are going to cover it all. My guess is that most of the initial $250 deposits were used in development/R&D costs vs. production costs. That's why it wouldn't surprise me if they had to go 100 deep in partial downpayments just to get these first 10-20 games manufactured. The good news is that after these games are manufactured that the cost per game becomes significantly less as it's smoother sailing from there.

The skitB guys are cool - no question. But as you state, some final communication following MGC is warranted.

No pitch fork carrying here at all - just need a bit more to make the final $$ commit. May sound stupid to some, but the UV was the key element that pushed me over the top to purchase this pin. Yes, theme, gameplay, rules - got it and agree. But I'm shallow and a sucker for a cool UV effect creating a Predator head to appear. It's akin to TOM with no trunk magnet disappearing act. I like my special effects.

That's why communication at this point is appreciated - even if just in the form of an email to owners on the list instead of a message board.

EDIT: I hit send the same time as SkitB posted - see above me. My concern is just the UV treatment at this point. But of importance.

image.gif

Thanks for responding! I really like the two center targets and think they function great as a risk/reward shot as intended. My only gripe was with how wide the playfield cutout was for them, but it sounds like that has been corrected.

Certainly not, but, we have reports on this thread that even in "near dark" it is not showing up enough to be considered even close to prominent, especially the blood trails which are the "functional" part of the effect. In fact, no one at all, aside from Skit-B, has reported the effect as a success.

I would absolutely LOVE a video (which I gave early could be understandably hard to engineer), or reports from customers in a home environment or perhaps at a show after playing cloaked in a draped booth or something, that proves the above moot. Until then, it's hard to categorize something no one has yet seen as a "success".

Just found and re-read the last email announcement and you do state that any and all deposits are 100% refundable for any reason. Thanks for the reminder, I had forgotten.

Great job Kevin looking forward it seeing you at Allentown hopefully.

I had the chance to see it and yes the Predators face is clearly visible in the dark and it's pretty freaking bad ass.

I cannot wait for my machine to arrive!!!!

Thanks again Kevin and crew!

Where did you see this at. Also was it seen from just the lighting from the game, or was an alternate light source used?

Just curious, Art, do you play a role on the production side for this game?

Are the deposit levels still in play?

This was at my house Sunday on their way back to MI. It was from the fluorescent lighting that is in the game. Again it was dark in my garage.........

Not much...I pester Kevin, and got to know him as the 13th customer.....Offered bulbs, but I respect his decision with CT....Steve, at Pinball Refinery and myself have chatted/offered additional lighting options....mine during the process, and Steves more recently....

I am quite confident that Warm whites, and Greens Maybe, would help the plastics and looks, so if I am still in the running, Id make some kits up...It would be the only kit you might see me do, but for Predator Fans, Absolutely
(and affordable)

I spoke with Kevin for 10 seconds earlier, he will be trying the UV PAD this weekend, and I will be shooting some pics
on various games...I like the idea of finding a way to make this a hooded lamp, a tilted acc, under plastics for really any game....Most every game I have has UV affect...Now I am trying to convince a new secret company launching
soon, that is making killer colored Silicone Rubbers, and playfield rings, to try UV reactive. (Wait for this Launch!!)
Silicone, to me is MUCH better then Urethane, and I am hoping Kevin might light Camo Green Rubbers on the game!

Thoughts?

For any game, maybe Glow Plastic protectors...or even maybe game specific decal/overlay in UV reactive.....

Sorry, I am a child of the 60's...Black lights, Lava Lamps, Woodstock...I just like UV....

Thanks Jetzxi. So I'm guessing complete darkness and no other games on? Sorry for so many questions.

I love this idea.

Correct....... I didn't have any other games in the garage at the time to see how it would do while they were on though.

I also have two of those COB UV Panels that I got off ebay last week and forgot to bust them out to see how they would work.

Art, sign me up for one of your kits. I'm staying in on Predator as of right now. Like others, I'd like to see and play more of the final product, but I'm still excited to open this game NIB.
Mike

I'm a child of a child of the 60s and I certify the above ideas as bad ass.

From my perspective, I saw the UV effect in the darkest possible arrangement my game room will ever offer when at the MGC afterparty (no room lights on, all windows covered, and only the lighting of other games on at a distance) and it needs to be altered to be viewable in that arrangement. To be a success for me, I need to be able to see blood trails when in hunt mode in a normal home arcade with the lights off.