Can't say I have played it enough to compare it to LOTR or some of the B/W 90s games. To be hones, there are few games that to me personally are just over the top great games, like LOTR, so it would be hard for any game to be 'as good', so if you only have room for one game, then I would probably take LOTR over just about any other game. I do have to say that I love the books and the movies, so that influences that, but it is a game that has excellent depth, and a really well integrated theme. TSPP is what I consider the deepest game, requiring great in game strategy to really 'beat it', but it is not necessarily the most enjoyable game (the sound can be quite annoying given how long a game takes, the shots don't have a great flow/feel to them).

From the B/W era, STTNG and TZ are my favorites. I think TZ and STTNG, are some of the best examples of that era. It is 20 years since STTNG came out, and I don't think you can say the current Star Trek game looks like it is 20 years more advanced. Says a lot about those 90s games. The graphics on the new Star Trek are underwhelming. If you did not know who made the games, and you saw that and BOP2.0 at expo, you would have assumed that the BOP graphics were from Stern and the Star Trek from a boutique company. I will say that Predator has a little bit of the STTNG feel to me, the game can be fast and has a nice feel when you get into the rhythm of it. Predator has good depth, but I can't say if it is as deep as say TZ or LOTR -- I just don't know it well enough to say.

If you don't like fixing games, then I would give serious consideration to Predator over an aging 90s game, because any game from the 90s is going to have a never ending supply of issues, no matter how well it has been restored or cared for. If you can find an LOTR in a good shape for under $5K, then yeah, I would take that over Predator, but again, that is a killer theme for me.

Thanks Rosh.

That's all I'm asking, I ask an honest question and people jump on me.

You will be able to pick up a LOTR anytime (my favorite pin). But i doubt if you pass on Predator you'll be able to find another come up for sale as easily.

Been through a lot of games Rai and trust me theme matters. If it's not a fave for you just let it go.

Just wondering ... but I know with the Hobbit, you can sell your spot. Is this the same with Predator?

I THINK they said you could now...not sure...

good point, but I think a handful of people are just buying to flip so there will be some still available at the onset at minimum.

I suppose you could attempt to work something backdoor, but the short answer is NO, you can not sell your spot. If you want to jump off the list and already have a deposit down SkitB will refund your deposit and let the next person on the waiting list know there number has been picked. With over 175 on the waiting list already the right thing to do is just get off if you no longer are interested. Plenty of other pinheads ready to get on board and take over your spot.

Rai I think you posted a very valid question. When we don't get a chance to play predator we are gonna ask all the tough questions. They may come off as negative but I think the questions are more constructive. I wouldn't have used lotr as an example instead I would use afm because that is the game that predator strived to be as good as(was from Kevin himself). So my question to anyone that has played predator how did it stack up against afm? I'm talking whole package. I thank all you guys that have played the game and take the time to post your reviews.

Of course there will be flippers. And btw, I'm on the waiting list, but I'm probably too far down that the only way I'll be able to get this is on the secondary market.

I could care less about all this UV predator face crap. I think a handful of guys are making it too much of a focal point; and although if this is important to them personally, I respect that; but...

It's not even a selling point to me personally. All I care about is primarily the dmd rules and animations in conjunction with playing the pin.

I'm looking for a kick ass theme.

I'm looking for a beautiful pin.

I'm looking for professional rule set.

I'm looking for a fast playing Playfield, this is still up in the air until I get to play in person.

Meets most of my requirements. I'm good.

I'm thinking along similar lines Underlord.

I figure if the gameplay stinks, the UV is not going to save it. If the gameplay is great, the UV is not going to hinder it much (and there are probably ways to enhance it if you really want).

I think it's a cool idea, as long as the controls are there, we can have fun with mods. The look of the ramps is great as it is. I can see getting some of that clear UV paint and splashing it on the plastic foliage. Maybe painting the body or bones with red?

Looking forward to Allentown!

Hey Ted, see if you can get us some info.

I hear you're ok with a camera. 8-0

Yes, I'll take some pix and vid at Allentown.

We'll one more review. I'm about number 40 or so in build Que... I got in a bunch of plays at the MGC. The first thing I'll say is, Predator is not a game you walk up to and immediately get into. As a matter of fact in that circumstance it would underwhelm you. I played with other folks who had no idea of the rule set. After a couple games, understanding the hunt mode buttons and letting the sound package come through, you get a feel of what it's going for. This is definitely a game for the home setting. It starts to get the blood pumping after you know the rule set. I would love to play it in a quiet setting. I think that would really help also. It left me wanting to play it again. As far as the UV, we had it in almost complete dark and it was non-existent. Sorry. The first thing being done will be replacing some LEDs. It's the one thing they should address prior to shipping.The gi is way off, way to stark. The flippers felt strong. The shots flowed well, once you found them. The game crashed once in the very beginning. After that I saw no problems and it was in constant rotation. After reading the less than stellar reviews from the last couple shows I guess I had lowered my expectations. After playing it multiple times I can say I was pleasantly surprised. This will be a cool game. But Maybe a better fit in a larger collection?

Is Predator going to California Extreme? If it goes I might head up there....

Yes Kevin listed that in events they plan on attending.

I think CAX is where they intend to unveil game #2

Any word if this will be at PAGG?

This comment from bigduke6 and others that have made similar comments really sums up what most people want out of this or any other game. If it makes you want to hit START again and again, I'd say that is a win.

CaCan we get a update on production?

That's a question only Skitb can answer.

Kev, any ideas yet on starting building of these bad boys?

Rick.
"I'm gonna have me some fun." #190

They be gearin' up for Allentown!

I know it is probably written down somewhere, but I cant find it. Does anyone have the list of upcoming shows that Skit-B/Predator are going to be attending?

You planning on Saturday?

I'm pretty sure that I read no

Yes, Saturday is the only day I'll be going. Let's get a group together.

Predator is significantly inferior to Attack From Mars. But the comparison is really unfair as AFM is widely considered one of the Top 5 DMDs of all time by many pinball collectors.

So, let's compare it to something more contemporary. Let's compare it to recent Sterns.

Predator compares favorably to Stern Avatar. While both have simplified layouts, they both have a solid ruleset that makes gameplay enjoyable. Predator wins this battle due to a better ruleset. While both are fun, Predator has that "pinball crack"personality.

Predator is superior to Stern Transformers. While Transformers may have some more "bling" than Predator, the Predator's fun factor pushes it above Transformers. I think the art package, sound and dots are better on Predator than on Transformers. So coupled with more rules that engage me more, I think Predator is better.

"Dialed In" Stern Avenger is better than Predator. While both require tight shots, the "feel" of shots on Predator & Avenger are similar. Both will punish you for missing shots. This is a close race, but I think Avengers is a better theme for me than Predator.

Predator beats "Old Code" Metallica. I have not put a ton of play on "New Code" Metallica, but from what I hear from people I trust, "New Code" Metallica transforms the game. So I am not going to compare Predator to Metallica until I actually have Predator in my possession and I can put it through a vigorous 2 week testing period.

Now the losing streak.

Iron Man, Tron, ACDC & Star Trek are in a different league. There is no comparison. If Predator was mass produced, and you could easily pick one up later down the road, each of these 4 Sterns would be no brainers to pick up before picking up a Predator. Predator would easily be 5th in this comparison.

However, there are only going to be 250 Predators. That's it. In my brief time at TPF playing it, I really had fun. The game "grabbed" me. It really "grabbed" my nephew.

So I'm willing to stick it out and buy Predator NIB. If I'm wrong, and it turns out that it really was a honeymoon period and it does not have the legs to stick around, I'll sell it. I may get my money back or I may lose a little. I'm 100% confident that I will have 12-24 months to get back 95% of my money if I do decide to sell.

Like any NIB pinball machine, it's a gamble. But I think this gamble is worth taking based on my personal experience playing the game. And if it turns out to be a losing bet, I'll just do what I have always done. I will sell the game and get something else.

Marcus

I think transformers is better than Ironman. Transformers just has a lot more game there, than IM does. IM is great to play once in awhile or a great tournament game because of the shallow ruleset, but in a home environment, i'd take TF any day over IM.

well said Marcus and I mostly agree with your comparisons. Except for the Transformers. I have and LE and still dig it a LOT.
I do have a fairly large collection and it's something different. And I am buying it for MYSELF. Hopefully friends and pinheads will come over and enjoy it too.
I would compare it a little to JM. people have no freaking idea what to do when the ball jumps up to the glove and is waiting for the player to place the ball in the matrix. and the video mode? it still pisses me off and I've owned one for years. I have to kind of explain how to work it to first timers and they really don't have the attention span to figure it out. I can see predator being like that in a sense. First impression not good because you don't know what's going on and HOW to play the game.
It's great for pinheads who this game is intended for though.
I'm still in as long as they don't slip their delivery schedule too much. If this drags out to 2015 I'm not going to be happy.

Thanks for the above posts, I am not trying to put Predator down when I asked if it's worth $5k the same money as LotR or Tron or ST pro.

I want people's opinions, I am not saying Predator sucks. But I like a full feature game not not a full compromise game.

I am sure some will like it, but equally sure some will not, but that goes for all games, I was reading reviews of Tron and LotR which put them as poor to very poor. Doesn't mean I agree with the reviews, but I have an open mind and like to hear what others think about pins.

Thanks

I think people "want" to like the game so badly but there is no way it should be in the same breath as any of those mass produced games.

Again, a lot of people are not looking at the total gameplay that needs to be addressed that will cause issues:

The middle target shots being compared to Dracula. Dracula's are WAYYYYY higher on the playfield. Whether this was made on purpose or not it is similar to having a big brick wall in the playfield and creates for maddening wild shots that can cause the ball to go at weird angles, getting stuck in strange spots, smashing up plastics, etc. I am sure everyone is in love with the "ruleset" but I will always compare it to something like "Bamboozled' on Friends or Weaponlord in the fighting game realm. That is not necessarily welcoming to people.

About the game "grabbing" people, it's a new pinball. Almost ANY NEW PIN NOWADAYS becomes everyone's favorite game of the moment. Heck, we have Transformers now and that is being played more than Tron and AC/DC which are far superior games just because it is new and the theme is good and the music goes with the flow of the game. I understand the "honeymoon" period is there on many games, and we also know Predator will do fine if anyone needs to resell it down the road but again people will go bananas for looks and theme (Wizard of OZ) and when they realize the games may not be as fun, they change their tune. Tron is a lasting game. The people that don't like it, well, you can't please everyone, but the game is spot on and correct to the theme,flow, music, gameplay, etc. Easily the best Stern game ever made. I just don't see how a game played sparingly at shows can somehow be compared to seasoned designers games (even the subpar ones) when it's been played a handful of times.....we just don't know completely but you can tell it's missing a lot, so there is no negative/positive until the finished product has come out. Until then no one has released a "must have" game non Stern as of yet.

I always have a problem with the view that only 'seasoned designers' can create great games (or the belief that any game by designer X is a great). I'm not saying that is what DreamTR is saying per se, but something you hear a lot on pinside.

I'm not saying predator is a great design, but the predisposition that a boutique or limited edition game by a new designer can not have a great design is just flawed. Look at some of the 'legendary' designers. Some of their very first games had designs that were just as good as those being done by the 'seasoned' guys at the time and often better then games they did when seasoned.

Is the playfield design of Predator one of the best ever, of course not. Is it better then the best of the recent Sterns (Tron, ACDC), certainly not. Is it better then some of the previous Sterns, I think so. Is it a design that would do well on location, probably not. Is it a design that will challenge an experienced player who wants to put their skills to the test, yes.

WOZ was done by 'seasoned' designers, and as said above, it looks amazing, has some cool features (both toys and rules), but overall not viewed as a great playing game. I've had plenty of really good players, play my custom game and say for game play they would take it over a WOZ in a heartbeat. No guarantee a seasoned designer will make a great game, and no reason a rookie designer can't.

Each game needs to be evaluated on his own merits, regardless of who designed it or built it. While often in the short term, there is a predisposition to like a game better if you like the designer ("Its Pat Lawlor, I know it is going to be a great, I'm going to pre-order") or theme (as DreamTR talks about), however, I think for the most part, that with time, games are ultimately viewed based on their merits.

I'll agree with DreamTR that you should not draw any absolutes about any game, when you have only played it a few times, but I don't care who designed it. I thought TSPP was crap the first few times I played it, then after I played it enough to understand the game, I came to appreciate want a great game it really was. Does everyone consider it a great game, certainly not. To each his own.

Does everyone who complains about the center targets hate Black Knight / Black Knight 2000? Not preaching, just wondering. I know 2000 isn't everyone's favorite game of all time (it's easily one of mine), but I don't usually hear folks complaining it's unplayable or irreparably broken. When I tick off the list of things that worry me about this purchase, the center targets are a total non-issue.***

http://ci-cdn.23bits.com/46/48/ci-120511141127-960.jpg

http://www.pinballnews.com/shows/expo2013/177.jpg

*** Let me rephrase that. They are a non-issue as an intended game play element. There being only two little round targets in a space designed, both visually and mechanically, to hold two great big square targets... that's annoying. If you'll note in the picture above, the ball's stuck between them (on an older build, perhaps this has been addressed, though I'd prefer the original squares in any case).

Black Knight has a secondary playfield and loops to go around the targets with better distance around them, there is a lot more going on there. The targets would be better suited further up the playfield. I know this was intended but I can intend to make many things, doesn't mean it will work out the best way...

You can add F-14 to that list too....

some things can/likely will change on this game before it is really complete, but removing/moving the 2 center targets is not likely one of those things...

Everyone here hates that game with good reason. =)

I will have to see it in person - I don't mind the placement of the targets but the wide spacing bugs me.

and Robocop

you can always change it yourself

None of these are as prominent or close to the flippers as Predator...everything else has better ways around it.......

I don't mean to be a dick, but don't buy it then if you don't care for it.

I totally get the gripes about inlane covers and LEDs and art etc. It's all fixable kind of stuff, people want it to be the best it can be. But the actual design of the pin was known from the get go. Kevin's a great player, and he came up with his playfield layout vision, including a dangerous shot right smack in the middle. If it's not your style, then pass. Theme is great and all, but you play the game, and if you don't dig doing that, walk. It's not like it's going to change, that's a done deal now.

Some people just want to piss and moan about the things that are not going to change it seems.

Are the center targets a lot closer than TNT targets on AcDc ?

They remind me of the Marilyn targets on taxi but they are drop targets on taxi. I always feel like those targets on taxi are gonna snap because they are so close to the flippers but they never do.

I mean, I can say the same thing for many people that go into people's threads arguing prices. It is perfectly within my right to discuss and debate those targets in the middle and the stuff with the game. It's not out yet. You have the peanut gallery here (not you I am talking about) talking about pissing and moaning when half of this forum goes on tirades about pricing and stuff on all the threads. It's like the pot calling the kettle black here.

If people don't like my opinion, so be it, but it's a valid discussion and I have already stated both sides to Predator good and bad, but a lot of people apparently skim over what I type up and pounce on the negative sides.

As picky as people are about pinballs on these forums, it makes it hilarious when I talk about a gameplay "gripe" and people get ticked off about pricing and nicks in their games, lol

It is the criticism over and over part that makes it easy to gloss over the good points that you post.

People have been harping on the center targets for a little over a year. It just sounds like a broken record, esp when coming form people that have not even played the game.

Well, I have played the game, so that point is moot. I understand what you are saying, but after playing the game you can see it becoming an issue for wild balls as well.

I should have said, people that do not know how the game is intended to be played.

I am just being honest, but until I actually figured out how the designer intended for the game to be played I hated those damn targets. After around 10 consecutive games I began to understand the real way to play the game and the targets work perfectly for what they were intended (don't screw up, play better, plan your shots).

I will say that there is something VERY different when people bag on a mass produced game compared to repeated bagging on a game being built by a small group of guys and they also do not provide any viable constructive criticism.

"Close targets" "Targets too close" "Targets too prominent" just turns in to blah blah blah really quickly after the 300th time in the past year. Pretty sure the targets are there for the long haul so you are beating a dead horse. Do you have a viable solution to what you think is a design flaw?