The machine looks fantastic!

As a P-roc developer I wanted to comment on the Betelgeuse review and some other comments that have been made,

The weakness of flippers and vuk, sounds to be like the config file was not adjusted properly for the machine at the show vs potentially what used in the prototype. What I mean by that, is the power transformer in the production game may be different then what they have been using along the way, and the pulse times need to be adjusted. For example, a Williams or Stern game you are typically using a pulse time of 30, but for the transformer I use, it is 18. It would not surprise me if Kevin was originally using what I am using, but for production has gone with something differnet that is easier to source and better suited for production. Again, this just conjecture on my part.

In addition, it is a tricky balance between too weak and too strong and I know I have had to adjust mine on multiple occasions -- to be honest, when the glass is off it often makes it feel like things are too strong, so you tweak them down, then the glass goes on, and you realize your not making the shots, and that they were right before. Regardless, unless the power is way undersized, which I doubt, this is a minor fix. Since the code will be open-sourced, I am assuming you can adjust that yourself to your own liking, but if you crank it up and damage your ramps, and targets, don't go blaming Kevin

I know when I had my game at expo, I saw the game crash two or three times over the three days, which were basically the result of some sequence of events that hit a bug in the code, that in my testing I had not seen, despite playing the game dozens of times (in fact, still trying to track one issue down, since I can't replicate it). I know Kevin and the team are pounding on the game as much as they can, but not shocking to me that there is still a bug or two of that nature. The problem with testing, is you are typically focused on the shots you are supposed to be making for the mode, so that reduces some of the odd sequences that someone who does not know the game will hit when they are just smacking the ball around.

I'm the noob as far as pinball development goes, but I see this exact thing in a lot of the software we write at my job. I always find it funny when a QA person is like "i pushed A, F, D, and the up arrow at the same time, and it crashed" and the response is "Why in the hell would you push that combination?".

^^^^^Funny, that's totally what I was thinkin!^^^^^^

Did you voice your concern to Kevin Brain? If so what did he say?

Yes, I said it was a great game at a CHEAP price! Lol, exactly what I meant! You can't compare BOM of a small company with a Stern game. It's not a fair 1 comparison in my opinion. If someone is PAYING for this game and wants to make that comparison and buys a Stern instead, that's fine with me. But if you expect a very small company with limited resources to surpass Stern with their years of engineering, design and sales experience, then I think your expectations are unfairly too high. I didn't have any issues on my play through save for some slightly weak flippers, which I don't tend to bother with as that is something that can be fixed/adjusted. I understand those who have paid for this game have concerns, but I didn't see any "red flags" on my play through. Of course, everyone needs to play it for themselves.

I haven't really followed this game much, having little interest in the theme originally and being sidetracked with other new games. However, I finally got a chance to check it out and play it a few times at LAX on Fri evening and Sat early afternoon. and can give some impressions from someone who has no dogs in this race at all.

First game went quickly - the outlanes were wide open and no rubber present, and they swallowed all three balls quickly. Second game was the cause of some of the downtime as the left flipper button wound up in my hand after ball one. I was eventually able to reunite it with its owners and moved on.

Saturday I got another go, and this time I kept the ball going vertical and did much better. The shots are pretty easy, especially the "mode start" hole that plays almost exactly like DH's Warehouse shot. The flippers were strong enough to make all shots, including either ramp, although I did experience flipper-collapse once. The rather close-in lock targets in the middle chew up a lot of available shot space, limiting you to the ramps and orbits on the sides. The two side kickers help randomize action and keep things interesting. From a shooting perspective, it seems you want to just nick the lock targets as needed, then work the mode start and ramps/orbits

I got a multiball that had me shoot all shots, then the mode hole for 100M - seemed pretty similar to Shadow or other mid-90s WPCs. One mode (hunt?) had you moving a lit shot with the rear buttons while you attempted to shoot it with the ball, very similar to RFM. Other modes seemed more straightforward. Did not get the no-hold mode so can't comment on it. Couldn't hear the sound very well either. I also have to agree that if there's supposed to be a UV effect in the dark modes, it's not working very well. The blacklights are present and look cool, but very little reaction from the paint. DMD animations were pretty good, basically digitized film clips with text effects over them.

Stuff they need to fix before full production: ball kickout from the skull failed far too often, add reinforcement for where that kickout lands on the ramp, some plunges rattle in the orbit and don't make it to the top (game seemed level and pitched properly otherwise), collapsing flipper was real bad. The game is also missing lots of "little things" like lamp effects... the only lamps that ever light are the ones you need, no real 'celebration' effects. No flasher effects to speak of. Need to allow hurry of bonus count.

Overall, I'd say it's like a less-intense version of Dirty Harry without a 3rd flipper. Has potential but not quite there yet.

I did not speak to Kevin directly about the issues with Predator. He seemed to be pretty aware there were problems and I really wasn't interested in the 'why' aspect of it. I wouldn't want to try to speak for Kevin here on tech issues, anyway. Our conversation was more about our re-themes of Duck Hunt & Ghostbusters, the show itself, classic gaming, our leagues and even tattoos. Regular pinhead stuff.

Brian

Don't want to argue, but $5k is $5k no mater who makes it. In other words, to me this game needs to equal or surpass ST pro or Tron pro for it to be considered 'cheap' at $5k.

On a side note, if the UV paint is supposed to be its killer feature and yet if you can't see it, what good is that? How is that a bargain?

I took some pictures as well but I see some have been posted. The machine looks great and I was really excited to play it. I was 3rd in line. I watched a very sloppy player play 1 ball for like 5 minutes... he started multiball several times. I eventually left after he was on ball 2 forever as well. So it looks like the game is on the easy side I'm not knocking it as I didn't get to play it. I went back to the tournament area and continued to play and when I went back it was off...

I look forward to getting a chance to play it no matter what! Good luck to SkitB

That strikes me as a less than perfect attitude. This a limited boutique game. You generally pay more for that than a mass market product. You don't want to pay for it? Don't. But this is a limited title and one thing you're paying for is exclusivity. Like it or not.

You think WOZ is expensive now, imagine if they had only made 250 of them (insert joke about how that's all they've managed to make). What's JPop charging for his crazy limited games? $10k?

So what is the synopsis after Louisville? The "done" game:

-looks awesome
-has long ball times
-mediocre lighting effects
-won't stay running
-UV doesn't work
-game play, while subjective, is meh
-whyshow and spfxd will like it no matter what

Sounds like calling it done was premature. Next show they have claimed to be at is Texas? Hopefully some improvements over the next few weeks will move it from the done iteration to a done done iteration.

Loren, I'm pretty high up. I think my original number was 154 so production number has to be at least 100. So yes, if you work out the details with Cliffy then you should go for it.

My plan is to have mine at PPM so it would kind of suck to get the game, play it a couple times, and then have it be gone for awhile for Cliffy to make protectors. I'd rather ship it direct to PPM, slap on the protectors and play it right away.

You are trolling but I will still respond. To say I will like it no matter what is both silly and stupid. In case you have not realized I have been a critic of many things on Predator and for the most part those things have been addressed in a very good way up to this point. I am optimistic based on the history of the team making this happen that all other things will be fixed. Why would they stop short at this stage in the game???

I agree that saying "mission complete" was over optimistic from Kevin but no worse than where those words originally became popular from some lost village idiot.

I am looking forward to some steady improvements from show to show and really hope that 1 month from now when it is at MGC I will get to play a "done" version and decide at that point if it is time to add money or pull out.

My dad is the ultimate QA tester. He once called me for help with his work laptop. He said he tried to log in and the screen turned sideways!! WTF....

So after some investigation I finally figured out he hit CTRL-ALT-PgDown (instead of DEL), which was the intel graphics shortcut sequence to rotate the display 90 degrees.

Also, if you need a 10 speed bike to only have 3 usable gears, my dad did that after riding my brother's bike for about a half hour.

lol that's funny - my old man could also crash any computer. I'd get a call "hey I found this registry thing and started deleting stuff I didn't think I needed... now it won't fire up"

Not sure what you mean by that. I'm a fan of the boys and Predator. If the machine sucks, it sucks, if it's great, it's great. I call it like I see it. If I play the game and don't like it, I won't buy it. You'd have to be an ass to think someone will plunk down $5k just for the hell of it......just sayin'

Maybe I'm trolling, if you want to call it that, but only on the jab I took at you and Ted for your unwavering optimism. The rest of my points are valid. A "done" game should not have even one person coming on here and saying that you can't see the UV, period. I'm sure Kevin will have an excuse but honestly it's the main feature of the game and people say they can't see it. How does one defend that? Either the black lights come on and it works or it doesn't, no gray area, cut and dry.

You're 100% correct, it's fair to say most of the the thing being mentioned can be corrected by tweaking the code, the only exception is the UV layer which IMO is a critical compenent of this game but it may just need a stronger black light installed.

Yes, and ALL of this has to be addressed. (and I'm sure it will be)

Bottom line: No UV = Mission failed.

There is no or, if, but about it.

How is the UV the most important feature of this game? My two main concerns are quality of the build and if the gameplay is fun. The T-Rex eating the ball on JP is a feature on that pin but ours has been on a diet and decided not to eat the ball anymore and guess what, the game is not any less fun to play.

The flipper issue concerns me but hopefully that is just a setting tweak. Gameplay reviews have been mixed but of course whether a game is easy or hard can be subjective based on a player's skill level. I know a few have said starting the modes was rather easy and to use JP again, for me starting the CRTs is rather easy (first time through) but actually completing the modes is another thing.

Hopefully these issues get ironed out before the next show but if the exact same problems crop up in Texas then I would start to get worried.

It might not be the most important feature, but it is certainly one of the main selling points. Getting it right is a pretty big deal.

CFTBL without hologram...

I am not saying the UV paint does not exist. I am saying it's invisible ink. That's a pretty big deal. If you need a UV flashlight 2" from the naked playfield to see the UV effect, than in other words it is a failure.

Mission complete video did not show any UV paint effect, show reviewers could not see it. it's not there (in the sense that being able to see it is the main point) edit: this according to people that have played it, I have not seen it in person myself.

Was the UV layer thing part of the original build list? Just curious as it always seemed like an after thought to me.

yes

In the dark modes it was pretty hard to see the ball, so I hope the UV lighting is improved. Everything else I observed can be fixed by tweaking the mechs or software.

The UV thing is fairly big deal since it's something new to the pinball world. yes, VND had it, but it was only for the glowballs. not for different playfield graphics, which is/was a great idea from the get go.

When I got in it was already considered a feature and I'm like 50 ish in the build order, take that for what's worth but to me the UV is pivotal to the game. It is actually THE reason I bought into this project. While black lights are nothing new in pinball the way SkitB is trying to implement the UV component is very innovative to pinball, just as the ramps on TRON LE are. In my opinion, as a consumer with a vested interest, the UV layer has to be right for the game to be considered a successful venture.

Have to agree with you there. Was one of the few things that would make this pin stand out from others. If I got the pin and could not see the UV layer in my dimly lit game room I'd be pretty disappointed. From what others have said it seems like Kevin is aware of the issues and hopefully determined to get the issues ironed out before shipping pins to buyers. I would love to get the pin soon but the most important thing for this project is to get it right before shipping.

Yes, from the beginning the UV has been not only a stated design element, but an important "sell" for the machine. It's genius if they pull it off, and unfortunately a massive disappointment if it fails. This table needs all the cool bells and whistles it can get. I'm wondering if those dinky little LEDs have the guts to pull off the effect. When it pops in demo vids, it's always a big hand held flood.

I'm not even buying a predator, and I think the UV feature is super important. It's one of the innovations that set SkitB apart from a regular game.

Yes I have to agree, the UV is one of selling points and probably the coolest effect which is something no other game has. I feel confident Skit-b will have this issue resolved before shipping.
#34

Not to beat a dead horse but the game is "done" what is there to resolve? Last minute resolutions might be ball traps, I guess code that locks the game up, weak flipper issues and a VUK that can't clear the ball. But, Kevin called it finished "look at what you are getting" and making the UV work would be something I would have thought would have been tried and tested long before making the "done" proclamation. Saying the game is finished from a design stand point and then asking for more money with out the UV working is like saying it's done but never mind that blank spot we plan on putting a pop bumper there later.

Looking at that video again, the UV layer obviously works so it seems it may just be a matter of how much light is hitting it? Seems in that video if you look at the sides where the flood is not direct you can still see the extra layer? Could possibly be an easy fix of getting a few well placed LED black light spots?

I will of course wait to judge till I get to see it in person on MGC, but still seems like a fixable thing.

It could be as simple as things that tested fine at their headquarters didn't under real world conditions. This isn't unusual for any manufacturers, but that being said it's hard to patch hardware after the fact. Whether there are improvements at the next show will tell us a lot.

And yes while the UV is important, and is a feature I would want to work well, I wouldn't think it was someone's main reason for buying the machine, as it was being made out to be.

While I don't share your optimism I do hope you are right and they just need to do a better job with the lighting. While I'm sure I come off as pessimistic I'm really not and I do want the game to succeed. You get MGC and I get TPF a few weeks before it so time will tell....but not much time.

I thought the UV stuff was for dark rooms like in that video. No light. You can't get that at the show, can you? Total darkness?

I am hoping at MGC that I have an opportunity for some lights out play at the after party?

I don't think anyone is going to see UV effects at a show, unless they have it in a light tight booth.

Are they using UV LEDs to light it? Because frankly UV LEDs suck balls. They're really practically useless.

It looked like little blacklight tubes.

I'd buy into that if it was code or some mech that failed and needed to be reworked. But, unless Kevin lives somewhere not on this earth my real world and his are the same. We both have 24 hours in the day and a sun that cycles allowing the use of indoor lighting, just like at the pinball shows. Am I being over critical, probably.

It is the main reason I am buying this machine. Why? Because outside of this innovation into the world of pinball it's just another game with an, at best, average layout compared to other recent offerings in the market.

If this is the case than the effect is worthless. Shows (at least the ones I've gone to, maybe minus Chicago) get just as dark as my home game room with the lights off and all my games on. A sincere question, do you think the ambient light from adjacent machines is going to wash out the effect?

+1000, They are borderline garbage. I actually get better glow results with blue LEDs than UV supers

In other videos the light banks look like a whole bunch of tiny LEDs in the cab. For up close looks, when it really jumps out, it's a handheld fluorescent tube. I don't worry about their video play through not showing the ink, those overly way too bright pure white LEDs would wash out anything as subdues as UV ink. Eye witness reports are the concern.

In the Mission Completed video, the room was pretty much pitch black. The Louisville expo was not. It is possible that the installed blacklights are not strong enough to work when there is ambient lighting. Yes that would be a design flaw, but it would also be a reason they say it's done, but yet it wasn't visible in Louisville.

They are also the only ones to include an achievement system similar to what Xbox and Playstation use. It gives you goals outside of the normal gameplay. This system is what caught my attention and to me is more important than the UV layer as it adds depth to the gameplay.

Lucky for me the UV thingy was never a big deal. AND...I can't believe that a convention floor can get anywhere near as dark as a game room with lights off. (I wanna see the Claw work!)