(Topic ID: 122211)

Predator, Paypal & How to start the refund process


By Xerico

4 years ago



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  • 66 posts
  • 37 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by OLDPINGUY
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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There are 66 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 4 years ago
Quoted from PinB:

Since Kevin has ignored my repeated refund requests, I contacted PayPal this morning by phone & informed them of this whole situation that has come to light over the weekend. Even though I was past the 180 days, they made an exception & were able to file complaint cases for my payments, but I still need to wait while they investigate. They said that in cases like this, they tend to make exceptions, so we will see what happens. They sounded like they weren't going to take this lightly.
For any of you that paid via PayPal & want a refund (but are past the 180 days): Log-in to your PayPal account, then click on the "Contact" link, then click on the "Call Us" link. The next page will give you a unique code that you will need to enter when you call PayPal. After you call & enter the unique code, just keep hitting "0" to get through to a representative & explain the situation to them.

EDIT: It looks like the first person I spoke to at PayPal gave me a false sense of hope. After calling PayPal back again & speaking to a different Claims rep, they told me that we would need to go through police, small claims court, or another source outside of PayPal. They did tell me that Skit-B's PayPal account was shut down some time ago due to the amount of complaints stemming from it. That partly explains why we haven't been able to get refunds over the last few months

My advice is to go through your credit card company if at all possible.

If that is not possible, try the approach shown above. looks like the Skit-B account has been frozen by Paypal. So maybe there is a light at the end of this horrible tunnel.

For the record, I went through my credit card company (AMEX).

Marcus

#2 4 years ago
Quoted from Xerico:

For the record, I went through my credit card company (AMEX).

I am all ears (same CC); can you PM me some details? - Will go through Amex France.

#3 4 years ago

I went through the unshipped item dispute with Paypal and had it escalated by paypal. My claim is currently listed as active. I also listed the delivery date as 12/31/14.

#4 4 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

I went through the unshipped item dispute with Paypal and had it escalated by paypal. My claim is currently listed as active. I also listed the delivery date as 12/31/14.

This is what I have done as well. I'm not at all hopeful but it's a shot. If Paypal still has the funds frozen (which they almost certainly were, at least initially), you never know, something might come out of it.

#5 4 years ago

My off pinside friends have also done this as well. I have also encouraged them to file with ic3.gov. Even if the money is returned a crime has still taken place. If someone robs the bank and returns the money the bank was still robbed. Please make it known that the pinball community will never stand for such a thing ever again and it will be met with HARSH prosecution to the fullest extent of our federal law.

If and when he is indicted the money will be seized and re distributed in the order it was received and any and all outstanding amounts left owed will be apart of his restitution for sentencing.

I dont ever want to see this happen to pinball brothers and sisters again. I have nothing to gain only passing on my info and experience with ic3.gov and the white collar division of the fbi and how it works.

Chin up and remember its just about doing the right thing at this point and not who exposed who or anything of that nature. Anyone that needs help with ic3.gov please dont hesitate to contact me and I can help walk you through the process from filing to indictment.

Truly sorry this has happened to all of you some I know and some I dont. The only fingers at this point that need to be pointed are at the culprit.

14
#6 4 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

I am all ears (same CC); can you PM me some details? - Will go through Amex France.

I simply called American Express, selected "fraud" option and spoke to an agent.

The agent could not pull up my statement, but did find the payment to Paypal/Skit-B.

So the payment was noted and an investigation has started.

The agent told me that I would get the funds back temporarily as they investigated.

She assured me that American Express would be my advocate.

I love my American Express.

Marcus

#7 4 years ago

Marcus (Xerico), I had to edit my original post that you quoted, so could you please update it accordingly (I don't want to be responsible for wasting anyone's time) - thanks:

EDIT: It looks like the first person I spoke to at PayPal gave me a false sense of hope. After calling PayPal back again & speaking to a different Claims rep, they told me that we would need to go through police, small claims court, or another source outside of PayPal. They did tell me that Skit-B's PayPal account was shut down some time ago due to the amount of complaints stemming from it. That partly explains why we haven't been able to get refunds over the last few months.

Source: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-official-pinside-skit-b-predator-discussion/page/97#post-2330272

#8 4 years ago
Quoted from Xerico:

The agent told me that I would get the funds back temporarily as they investigated.

Did that happen?

#9 4 years ago

What?

#10 4 years ago

Amex does that. Once they agree to dispute you get the funds. If the disputed charges can be proven to be valid you will owe them . Customer has the upper hand

#11 4 years ago

Interesting information regarding refunds ... Kevin replied to an email stating that refunds would happen in the next days. Stay optimistic, but cautious.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-official-pinside-skit-b-predator-discussion/page/99#post-2330661

Marcus

#12 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Did that happen?

Not yet. I don't expect to see any credit until tomorrow.

Marcus

#13 4 years ago
Quoted from Xerico:

I simply called American Express, selected "fraud" option and spoke to an agent.
The agent could not pull up my statement, but did find the payment to Paypal/Skit-B.
So the payment was noted and an investigation has started.
The agent told me that I would get the funds back temporarily as they investigated.
She assured me that American Express would be my advocate.
I love my American Express.
Marcus

Thanks for the tip.
Will use the same route...

Quoted from Xerico:

Interesting information regarding refunds ... Kevin replied to an email stating that refunds would happen in the next days. Stay optimistic, but cautious.

... in three days. Will know by then if refunds are issued (I finally asked for one - better late than never!!). Won't make a difference anyway with Amex. My last payment was made in May.

#14 4 years ago

We paid the remainder of the balance last March via PayPal but backed with a credit card. It was actually over a year ago so we thought we were out of luck, but others were trying with some success so we called and talked to the dispute center at Chase. Since we paid in advance and weren't expecting the machine until Q4 (if it had started on time then and with our build # being halfway-ish) they put down 12/31/14 as the expected date and opened a chargeback dispute. I'd already paid off the card so there's no "temporary" funds showing or anything at all happening per the website, so I called them and they said it is in process and Kevin has 60 days/2 billing cycles to dispute before they can issue the money back.

So, despite it being over a year, as long as there's no dispute from him, I may get some of my money back. And if he tries to dispute it, there's going to be a big fight. So we paid through PayPal but everything is taking place with the credit card company instead. My advice to anyone in the same situation is to tell them something similar to the above, as we do have the emails showing where production was supposed to start in early/mid 2014 and funds were asked for at the time for sourcing parts. It was a prepayment with a calculatable timeline that will put expected dates more in the range of the chargeback time limits than the date that you actually paid.

#15 4 years ago

Not part of this sad mess, but for the reasons noted above, i always do paypal charges thru a linked credit card (AmEx for me too) and not thru direct bank account withdrawal. No reason not to get the extra layer of protection, for future reference.

#16 4 years ago

Submitted my dispute through Capital One. Told them of the payment in June and the delivery that was supposed to be on December 31st, 2014. They indicated my funds would be placed back in my account while they investigate. They said the vendor has 30 days to respond. If no response in 30 days my dispute is closed and I keep the funds.

Time will tell.

#17 4 years ago
Quoted from Half_Life:

Submitted my dispute through Capital One. Told them of the payment in June and the delivery that was supposed to be on December 31st, 2014. They indicated my funds would be placed back in my account while they investigate. They said the vendor has 30 days to respond. If no response in 30 days my dispute is closed and I keep the funds.
Time will tell.

Great news, I hope you don't mind if I copy your post on the thread keeping track of Credit Card companies that are working with their customers.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/credit-card-companies-that-protect-their-customers#post-2330958

#18 4 years ago
Quoted from Half_Life:

Submitted my dispute through Capital One. Told them of the payment in June and the delivery that was supposed to be on December 31st, 2014. They indicated my funds would be placed back in my account while they investigate. They said the vendor has 30 days to respond. If no response in 30 days my dispute is closed and I keep the funds.
Time will tell.

Hi brother! I sure hope this works out for you.

#19 4 years ago

Please do. Thanks.

#20 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Hi brother! I sure hope this works out for you.

I do as well, my friend. I hope all of us involved get our money back so we may put this behind us. Thanks.

#21 4 years ago
Quoted from Xerico:

I simply called American Express, selected "fraud" option and spoke to an agent.
The agent could not pull up my statement, but did find the payment to Paypal/Skit-B.
So the payment was noted and an investigation has started.
The agent told me that I would get the funds back temporarily as they investigated.
She assured me that American Express would be my advocate.
I love my American Express.
Marcus

Can you please share what you told them?

#22 4 years ago
Quoted from Xerico:

I simply called American Express, selected "fraud" option and spoke to an agent.
The agent could not pull up my statement, but did find the payment to Paypal/Skit-B.
So the payment was noted and an investigation has started.
The agent told me that I would get the funds back temporarily as they investigated.
She assured me that American Express would be my advocate.
I love my American Express.
Marcus

I did the same thing. Amex told me to gather all of my correspondence from skit b and wait until they contact me again if it's necessary. (Which I'm guessing it will be.)

#23 4 years ago
Quoted from Asylum:

Can you please share what you told them?

I will let you know what I told them.

I explained almost exactly what happened. That skit b was a fraud and had promised an undelivered game. Told them that I expected to receive the game in about a year (I paid most of the balance late February ' 14).

They said to wait and hear back. I called last night immediately after reading the pinball news article. I told them the truth and figured I would let the chips fall where they may.

#24 4 years ago
Quoted from StevenP:

i always do paypal charges thru a linked credit card (AmEx for me too) and not thru direct bank account withdrawal. No reason not to get the extra layer of protection, for future reference.

Same here. I hate direct withdraws from my bank, just too much risk. I'm glad to hear that you guys did not wire transfer or do a withdraw from checking. That will save you in this case.

#25 4 years ago

Sadly I just have my PP linked to my bank account (lesson learned there). I rang them today and told me in no uncertain terms that I cannot make a claim past 180 days.

#26 4 years ago
Quoted from Asylum:

Can you please share what you told them?

Sure.

I told them that I wanted to dispute a charge.

The agent asked for the details of the specific charge.

I gave her the date and amount. She found it.

Then she opened up the investigation.

She never asked me how, what or why. She just took my information and then opened the dispute.
She told me American Express was going to fight for me. Amex would be my advocate. She also told me that I would get my funds back on a temporary basis. Once Amex found in my favor, I would get it permanently.

I thanked her and hung up.

About 5 minutes later, I got an email telling me that Amex was investigating the issue and that I should have a temporary credit soon.

That's where I stand now.

Marcus

#27 4 years ago

Hi Marcus. Where does Amex get the money from to refund you? If it's still in PayPal can they get it from there?

#29 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Hi Marcus. Where does Amex get the money from to refund you? If it's still in PayPal can they get it from there?

Its insured I bet - and most card members have fraud protection. This is where it really gets ugly for Kevin. They will go after him for the monies.

From the Amex web site under the security center it states - "Remember when you use your American express card, you are not liable for fraudulent purchases".

#30 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Hi Marcus. Where does Amex get the money from to refund you? If it's still in PayPal can they get it from there?

If Amex finds in my favor, this is what will happen.

American Express will issue a credit against my account. That money is mine and any further fighting is between Amex and the processor (Paypal).

American Express will go to Paypal and get the money from Paypal. Paypal processed the payment. So as far as American Express is concerned, Paypal will get the notification and the American Express charge back. At this point, the money owed by Paypal belongs to American Express.

In the American Express vs Paypal battle, American Express (or any other credit card company) will win. American will use the "fraud" card. At this point, two corporations may do battle over it. But in the end, American Express will get their money. Any further fighting for this money/charge is between Paypal and its customer (Kevin/Skit-B)

Paypal will then go the account in question, and get any and all funds from the account holder. Paypal is going to make sure that they get paid. So if there is money in the account, Paypal is going to take it for themselves. At this point, my deposit is now Paypal's issue.

If there is no money, Paypal will threaten, coerce and/or use any legal tool possible to get paid by Kevin. And at this point, the buyer should not care. The buyer got back the deposit made and is now whole.

This process is not instant. So if Kevin is able to return all paypal payments before the credit card companies complete their own investigation, then Paypal can win the charge back request and provide the proof of refund.

But the longer he waits, the less that will be in Kevin's Paypal fund to cover Paypal refunds.

So Kevin really needs to get those refunds out as soon as possible.

Marcus

#31 4 years ago
Quoted from Asylum:

Its insured I bet - and most card members have fraud protection.

...you ARE saying frog protection...

#32 4 years ago
Quoted from Xerico:

If Amex finds in my favor, this is what will happen.

I just checked with a friend. He said you are right on!

#33 4 years ago

Well said Marcus - thank you for the details.

#34 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

...you ARE saying frog protection...

Normally I get you 100% Ted - but this one is over my head...

Ok - never mind... I get it now... forgot about the frog/fraud tv commercial...

But this is still true here----> Maybe because I am still extremely pissed off about getting jacked around on this for so long - my brain is not working right.

#35 4 years ago
Quoted from Asylum:

Normally I get you 100% Ted - but this one is over my head...
Maybe because I am still extremely pissed off about getting jacked around on this for so long - my brain is not working right.

-2
#36 4 years ago

Unless things have changed, going around Paypal to your credit card company is a violation of their terms of service. So, you will probably lose your Paypal account. If you don't care, then fine. Just a piece of information...

Jaz

Quoted from Xerico:

If Amex finds in my favor, this is what will happen.
American Express will issue a credit against my account. That money is mine and any further fighting is between Amex and the processor (Paypal).
American Express will go to Paypal and get the money from Paypal. Paypal processed the payment. So as far as American Express is concerned, Paypal will get the notification and the American Express charge back. At this point, the money owed by Paypal belongs to American Express.
In the American Express vs Paypal battle, American Express (or any other credit card company) will win. American will use the "fraud" card. At this point, two corporations may do battle over it. But in the end, American Express will get their money. Any further fighting for this money/charge is between Paypal and its customer (Kevin/Skit-B)
Paypal will then go the account in question, and get any and all funds from the account holder. Paypal is going to make sure that they get paid. So if there is money in the account, Paypal is going to take it for themselves. At this point, my deposit is now Paypal's issue.
If there is no money, Paypal will threaten, coerce and/or use any legal tool possible to get paid by Kevin. And at this point, the buyer should not care. The buyer got back the deposit made and is now whole.
This process is not instant. So if Kevin is able to return all paypal payments before the credit card companies complete their own investigation, then Paypal can win the charge back request and provide the proof of refund.
But the longer he waits, the less that will be in Kevin's Paypal fund to cover Paypal refunds.
So Kevin really needs to get those refunds out as soon as possible.
Marcus

#37 4 years ago
Quoted from Jazman:

Unless things have changed, going around Paypal to your credit card company is a violation of their terms of service. So, you will probably lose your Paypal account. If you don't care, then fine. Just a piece of information...
Jaz

Things must have changed. They state in their policies you can do a CC chargeback but you cannot open both a Paypal dispute and a CC chargeback (the CC company will do the Paypal dispute for you)

#38 4 years ago
Quoted from Asylum:

From the Amex web site under the security center it states - "Remember when you use your American express card, you are not liable for fraudulent purchases".

correct me if i'm wrong but i think when they refer to "fraudulent purchase" they mean someone stole/compromsed your card and ordered a pinball machine (or the like). not a legimate payment made by you to a vendor where essentially a business deal went sour.

as an aside, PayPal has failed me in the past - i opened a dispute for an eBay transaction ($50) and they came back and said the merchant had NOTHING left in their PayPal account. they weren't going to refund me when they had no chance of recovery themselves - i was shit out of luck. granted, this was before PayPal placed holds on seller's funds.

in any event i agree that everyone's best course of action is to go through their CC issuer - PayPal will do everything to avoid paying you, especially if the merchant (Kevin) has nothing left in his PayPal account.

-2
#39 4 years ago
Quoted from DevilsTuner:

My off pinside friends have also done this as well. I have also encouraged them to file with ic3.gov. Even if the money is returned a crime has still taken place. If someone robs the bank and returns the money the bank was still robbed. Please make it known that the pinball community will never stand for such a thing ever again and it will be met with HARSH prosecution to the fullest extent of our federal law.
If and when he is indicted the money will be seized and re distributed in the order it was received and any and all outstanding amounts left owed will be apart of his restitution for sentencing.
I dont ever want to see this happen to pinball brothers and sisters again. I have nothing to gain only passing on my info and experience with ic3.gov and the white collar division of the fbi and how it works.
Chin up and remember its just about doing the right thing at this point and not who exposed who or anything of that nature. Anyone that needs help with ic3.gov please dont hesitate to contact me and I can help walk you through the process from filing to indictment.
Truly sorry this has happened to all of you some I know and some I dont. The only fingers at this point that need to be pointed are at the culprit.

You are a lunatic that I hope I never have an opportunity to do business with.

#40 4 years ago
Quoted from Code_Blue:

You are a lunatic that I hope I never have an opportunity to do business with.

that might be a little harsh. you don't think a crime has been committed? a vendor willingly took deposits/preorders/sales on something he had no rights to make or distribute. maybe it was naivety on Skit-B's part, but some might call it FRAUD plain and simple.

#41 4 years ago

Paypal and my bank can not do anything for me, my last payment was made to Kevin on February 23 of 2014. The money is long gone.

#42 4 years ago

I have been on the phone with my bank and paypal all day. I hope everyone else can get a charge back I'm afraid I'm pretty much f@#ked.

#43 4 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

Paypal and my bank can not do anything for me, my last payment was made to Kevin on February 23 of 2014. The money is long gone.

It's a good thing I didn't preorder one then, because I would go and take a week off and personally find him.

#44 4 years ago
Quoted from Fast-Ed:

It's a good thing I didn't preorder one then, because I would go and take a week off and personally find him.

...and do what? End up in jail for the rest of your life...

#46 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

...and do what? End up in jail for the rest of your life...

No just pay an assault fine, wouldn't be the first one I've ever had to pay. You would not beleive how much better you would feel.

#47 4 years ago
Quoted from Fast-Ed:

No just pay an assault fine, wouldn't be the first one I've ever had to pay. You would not beleive how much better you would feel.

Hehe. I've paid that. Twice.

#48 4 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

Hehe. I've paid that. Twice.

Bet you felt better didn't you?

#49 4 years ago

For future reference Amex is the best credit card company from a standpoint of taking of care of it's customers. It's good to hear some people are having success.

#50 4 years ago
Quoted from Xerico:

Paypal will then go the account in question, and get any and all funds from the account holder. Paypal is going to make sure that they get paid. So if there is money in the account, Paypal is going to take it for themselves. At this point, my deposit is now Paypal's issue.

For the love of gawd people... do this... but MAKE SURE YOU HAVE DRAINED YOUR FUNDS FROM any personal PAYPAL accounts and DE-LINKed your bank account from paypal.

Don't think for a moment that paypal will take these dollars lightly - they will use ANY inmoral path(s) available to screw you the consumer. There are many a story were paypal took $$$ from personal accounts of the creditcard owner after a charge back. IE they got a chargeback from credit card co A... and trace it down to paypal account b... and took money from that account and/or linked bank account. YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS with paypal... they use any and all means to collect any money they loose. It's not a FDIC insured bank... infact not a bank at all. I don't even think they are listed as a financial institution.

At best expect your Personal Paypal account to be frozen (even if you didn't use it for the Predator order)... any funds you'll probably never get back.

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