(Topic ID: 107295)

Predator seemed like a scam --- but eventually happily resolved!


By JimWilks

5 years ago



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  • Latest reply 5 years ago by pmWolf
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#801 5 years ago

...still no reply from SkitB????

#802 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Yeah, everyone is an attorney on the internet Rob

I am, for real. As are at least two other posters in this thread. Nice try, Magoo.

#803 5 years ago
Quoted from Jared:

The only person here truly having a freak out is you dude.
Here's to hoping this dramatic period is put to pasture and the games are all made and shipped as intended, with Skit-B earning praise in the process and becoming a larger and more well known manufacturer. The guys have been nothing less than awesome to me in person and I know they have a passion for what they do, so I continue to wish them the best.

And yet you took time to post all those wrong FACTs. It looks like Jared/bakushan/epic has it in for skit-b on the forums, but in person he puts on a nice face? WTH is that?

You can't just trash Kevin and Skit-B for a whole paragraph and then type in "wish everyone the best" to make it right. It's still an attack and I cant for the life of me imagine what your agenda is except more attention? Do you want everyone to get their games but hate kevin and skit b afterwards? Or are you wanting a train wreck to report on?

What if Predator is a dream theme? I mean I don't see any other Predator pinball options (insert handheld pic here). This is it if you want a Predator pinball machine. Some people have stayed mad that they did not get in the original 250. I hope that is not you because it would be so petty.

Predator #19 - fully licensed according to Kevin - LMAO

#804 5 years ago

Nope. Looks like Zombie Shar-Pei Arnold. Makes WPT artwork look like high-quality stuff!

#805 5 years ago
Quoted from SunKing:

...still no reply from SkitB????

are you a customer and they aren't responding to personal attempts to contact them or are you expecting them to answer here? If it's the latter, it ain't going to happen, i don't think. If it doesn't, it doesn't imply any wrongdoing. they aren't committed to answering every nimbly bimbly allegation that comes up on the internets.

#806 5 years ago

So where can I learn more about this machine in case I want to buy one (or maybe even an abandoned spot in line)?

#807 5 years ago

This has been the fastest growing thread I have ever seen. Maybe lion man beat it but I stayed away from that ridiculousness. I should have done so here. Everyone claims this is resolved because the buyer got his lousy 250 back, I still don't understand how/why a company does not keep their customer and potential customer base informed. Please don't tell me they are busy building a game. They can not be so busy as to potentially lose future customers. Stating you are too busy to do anything in this life is just an excuse. I say I am too busy all the time and in reality if I really wanted to do something I would make time for it.

#808 5 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

And yet you took time to post all those wrong FACTs.

They weren't wrong. They are 100% correct as far as I saw. What all those facts indicated when added together is up for interpretation, but no line item in that list was incorrect to my knowledge.

#809 5 years ago

In summation & lessons learned:

1. If you invest/decide to buy a pinball machine from a boutique pinball company with "any" deposit down you are taking a risk.

2. Once money is given the (insert name here) boutique company SHOULD be communicating with owners progress & timelines; if not Danger Danger Will Robinson!! Consider getting out unless you plan to stay in for the long ride and roll dice on risk.

3. If you decide you want out, request a refund early per company stated policy. Expect that, while not right, it may take time as they are usually a few person shops. But you should get your money back.

4. Remember risk #1. As small shops gear up for production they order parts with....drum roll....your money. All the deposits are invested in parts to build said machines. If you want out close to this start, you will likely be delayed in your refund. The money is gone/invested. This is not a $10K machine, it's lower priced and thus lower cash reserves left once parts have been paid for - especially since waiting for final payment from most. There simply is little to no money to give back until final payments are made. Number 2 could help explain this if the boutiques subscribed to it.

Thus, new pinball start ups are a risk. You're not buying from Stern with a huge manufacturing company and legacy behind them. We all need to tread carefully before handing our money over in the future.

That's why the model is broken. Great, start ups are offering us choice (finally) and I applaud the nads on these guys. But you need to come in with some capital rather than relying on hobbyists to fund you then turn into David Copperfield with slight of hand changes or disappearing acts. How many small businesses fail each year? Expect the same in pinball. Australia MM will not be the only one once this golden age of pinball story is written. Mark my words.

#810 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Kevin>

That said, you don't have a single game in your pinside collection that I am interested in.

I call bullshit.

#811 5 years ago

Glad to see the OP got his refund. With Skit-B sending out an email to the 250 owner's explaining the situation,
I would hope they include pictures, ..........LOT's of pictures.
(Cab's, boxes of parts, production line, cab's in production, etc..)

#812 5 years ago
Quoted from Mitch:

I'M Game number 157 production number 199. Been reading this post since the beginning. I'm still confident I'm getting my game someday. Even more now that the OP got his refund. If this was a scam why would Kevin give any money back? He sounds like a very busy and overwhelmed new businessmen who's in a little too deep. But that being said he's made a great looking game and I can't wait to get mine. As for the license I don't know anything about it, nobody does but Kevin and even if he did run into a few snags I don't care as long as I get my machine someday. But there is no proof there is any issues with it. Everyone just needs to calm down.

He's making a great looking game with a amazing theme for cheaper then any other company.

I agree with everything you said until the last part I highlighted, he is not making a game cheaper than any other company, I have been playing my IM for the past several months, IM is a great looking game amazing theme and it's as cheap (or cheaper than Predator), it has real functioning toys (Iron Monger, War machine and Whiplash) has magnets which are not found on Predator.

Predator has 2 stand-up targets, and a claw diverter that's all.

#813 5 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

For those keeping track:
THUMBS UP!
Who scored the most thumbs up this past 7 days?
RobT 377
Hwawonyu 251
labnip 249
Aurich 221
Whysnow 200
o-din 184
frolic 180
Rarehero 177
iceman44 173
teekee 164
Whysnow has slipped a little and we have a new leader!

Yes, but you need to qualify for some of those just exactly WHAT their thumb is up....

#814 5 years ago
Quoted from limelime20:

With Skit-B sending out an email to the 250 owner's explaining the situation,

Uh......yeah.....that part hasn't happened yet.

They should do a (separate thread) big giant PUBLIC update right here on Pinside. That's what they should do if they are interested in selling any future projects.

#815 5 years ago

All in all, I believe Predator is not a scam, never was, it's just it's taking a long time (understandably) but in the end I believe there will be 250 very happy owners.

#816 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Yes, but you need to qualify for some of those just exactly WHAT their thumb is up....

#817 5 years ago

There is more to this than just Predator. This ties in to Jpop and the other boutiques. Its why I disagree with the dude earlier about who owes us what.
As a whole we have finally started demanding answers vs just throwing our cash at folks. Skit B, Jpop, Wooly , Dutch etc. The point is we are saying you owe the community updates and answers if you want our business.
Thats the crux of this matter.

#818 5 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I agree with everything you said until the last part I highlighted, he is not making a game cheaper than any other company, I have been playing my IM for the past several months, IM is a great looking game amazing theme and it's as cheap (or cheaper than Predator), it has real functioning toys (Iron Monger, War machine and Whiplash) has magnets which are not found on Predator.
Predator has 2 stand-up targets, and a claw diverter that's all.

Don't forget the hanging body and the skull's

#819 5 years ago

I don't think anyone is going to argue that Kevin is a 'great businessman' and there is no doubt that we have seen a variety of things that indicate he has room for improvement in several areas (communication, possibly bookkeeping, marketing/promotion, etc.), and I suspect that Kevin would agree with that. However, that is a far cry from saying he is 'scam artist' -- although I think for the most part, very few people think that is the case.

Certainly his lack of promoting Predator, even with it being sold out, seems counter productive to building a reputation as a pinball company and I have to think there is some reasoning behind that and it would not surprise me if it is tied to what he can and can not do with the assets from the movie. E.g. he may be able to use the images on the machine, but not on promotional items whether it be key chains, T-shirts, or even on the website. Even having videos of game play, that include footage from the movie, may not be permissible by his license. This was Kevin's first license, so I am sure there were things he did not even think about needing to include.

I also suspect he is juggling too many things right now, between trying to get predator produced, working on the new game, being at expo, etc. While those items require different skills/activities given where they are in the process, there are still only 24 hours in a day, so something is not going to get done, and I'm sure first on that list is spending time on pinside.

I have no skin in the game, since I'm not someone who has put money down. However, I have had a dozen or more conversations with Kevin over the last year since we met when doing a P-roc panel seminar at expo last year. He has given me some help and I've given him some help. He is an incredibly nice guy, and has poured his heart and soul into this project and it has been a great learning opportunity for him and I'm sure he will continue to learn and grow from it and I know he is trying to apply what he has learned to his second machine.

I know he spends very little time on pinside (and email) and certainly does not read much, if anything, that gets posted in these threads, since there is so much negativity and crap to sift through. Myself and others (who have his phone number), when we have seen things that really do require his action/response will let him know and he is usually pretty quick to respond to the issue, but not necessarily to the forum (that was done that regarding this person not getting their refund and that has now been resolved).

I chatted with Kevin at expo and he indicated production was underway and things were moving along, slowly, but moving. One of the reasons I was talking to Kevin at expo was I blew one of my driver boards on my latest custom machine I had at expo, and wanted to know if he had a spare. He is such a nice guy that he actually pulled the board I needed out of sonic to help me out.

Buying a boutique pin from a new company is not for the faint of heart. Those who don’t have skin in the game, should moderate their criticism and vitriol. I do agree that communication, when it occurs (and should occur more often), should go to the whole community.

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#820 5 years ago

Congratulations to everyone!

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#821 5 years ago
Quoted from the_one:

Don't forget the hanging body and the skull's

Don't do anything, just a decoration, like the plastic figurines in IM or LOTR I was talking about Iron Monger raises out of the PF is a bash toy and has magnet action, Whiplash holds the ball has magnet action, War Machine is a kick-back.

As far as I can see the hanging body is just a plastic figurine and the skull is just a decoration to hide the up-kicker. The only thing that interacts with the ball is the claw which is a very cool ball diverter.

#822 5 years ago
Quoted from maddog14:

My definition of prototype includes full cabinet. Everyone knows that has been paying attention that there have been several iterations of the playfield.
So, Are you saying that there are 3-4 full working prototypes?
I am pretty sure that the updated playfields were just plugged in to the same cabinet. Hence ONE prototype with different playfields.
While it is semantics, it still remains that there may only be ONE prototype with full cabinet, head etc.

First, I saw the original and new Predator cabs during my stay out with the Skit-B crew the week before Expo. So we know there isn't just the one.

Second, as someone who dabbles in game design/building with my kids and as a test bed for our hardware, there is zero reason to create a new cabinet for every prototype revision. It is just wasteful and takes of space. Once you have your cabinet design locked down, you are good to go.

In fact, I use my FAST Frame Rails to build outside of the cabinet all together, and then just slip it into the cabinet to make sure it feels right. This is the only picture of it I had on me, but this one I took to a friends pinball party to let people check it out, without the cabinet. My son Henry is my "helping hands" when we get to soldering.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

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Post edited by fastpinball: grammer

10
#823 5 years ago

Epic thread.... and there's a lot of winners here:
1. the OP
2. Whysnots resume for anyfuture "Fearless Boutique Pinball Defender of the Faith" positions that may open up.
3. Smaug
4. MMR coinmech collectors
5. The drunk dude at the Lebowski presentation
5. And Shasta drinkers EVERYWHERE.

12
#824 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

The OP had a freakout?

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I won !!

oh wait... What do I win?
hmm... is this really a good thing?
i need a life...

#825 5 years ago

Debating if 2 or 3 prototype machines is worthless from my point of view.
The Cabinet / Backbox (apart from the decal design and the trims) won't change dramatically.
Red color trims are announced since a long time, decal artwork as well. Here the pinsiders had the most influence, I can remember discussing to reduce the various SkitB logos around ....
It was quite early designed in the shape / size it's right now
So to keep it (pls don't forget it's a non profit project) on the price level which has been agreed (and that's what Kevin did from the first minute compared to other well known manufactures!) I'm personally fine to have just 1 or 2 protos up and running. For me it's important that I see any progress during the development phase, not tons of protos / early versions .... as done by other well known manufactures and a stable price to plan accordingly.

#826 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Yes, but you need to qualify for some of those just exactly WHAT their thumb is up....

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#827 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Fact: You have ZERO powers of observation and your claim that this is the same prototype from the past few years are both completely false and show your complete ignorance on the issue. This further demonstrates your intent is to defame and slander the skit-b company .
Fact: You had better watch what you say when you make false claims that are intended to damage the reputation of a business.

REAL FACT : You need to produce machines to be called a real pinball business company .....example Stern (king of pinballs ) , jjp working on their second and distributed one title already , spooky pinball which came out way later on than skit-b predator ....and they are shipping America's most hunted ...it seems you know these guys very good why don't you tell them to answer everyones doubts insted of sending their representative pinside fan? If some one talks shit about me I'll defend myself , but if they talk about my company I will get as twice as aggressive ....that's my personal opinion on this case .

#828 5 years ago

Guys.... there's been a lot of emotion here.... and some hurt feelings...... and some strong words thrown around.

It's ok.

Let's just remember there's far more here that binds us together then what separates us.

And we should NEVER forget what's truly important here on pinside:

Somewhere, someplace, there's a kid out there with an awesome autographed DE SW pin and we STILL need to FIND HIM!

#829 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Guys.... there's been a lot of emotion here.... and some hurt feelings...... and some strong words thrown around.

I got butthurt just reading the thread

Crap, now I posted in it.......... TRONWOMEN!

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#830 5 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

I got butthurt just reading the thread

this chair is much less painful for me meow

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#831 5 years ago

So...before we start proclaiming this thread finished lets not forget the purple elephant in the corner of the room which is the Arnold situation. Should we start a new thread and lock this one specifically on that point?

This was a miserable thread . . . but would starting a new one be helpful or just re-stir the issues and arguments fresh?

#832 5 years ago

Can you make it a sticky called How not to start a pinball company?

Quoted from TigerLaw:

So...before we start proclaiming this thread finished lets not forget the purple elephant in the corner of the room which is the Arnold situation. Should we start a new thread and lock this one specifically on that point?
This was a miserable thread . . . but would starting a new one be helpful or just re-stir the issues and arguments fresh?

-5
#833 5 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

So...before we start proclaiming this thread finished lets not forget the purple elephant in the corner of the room which is the Arnold situation. Should we start a new thread and lock this one specifically on that point?
This was a miserable thread . . . but would starting a new one be helpful or just re-stir the issues and arguments fresh?

Better yet would be if a moderator did not fan the flames on what appears to be a completely unsubstantiated claim based on wild speculation because people don't see an online presence on SkitB website.

Why is it OK to make up completely preposterous claims but if you then phrase them as questions (regarless of the implications and intent by some to hurt a start up pinball company) it is all OK and even Pinside moderators are jumping in?

I would have no problem if you said the purple elephant is a lack of communication from SkitB online or via email, but when you are attempting to bait a response by continuing to spread factless rumors then that is the definition of trolling.

#834 5 years ago

Anyone who posts a thread with associating a startup with the word SCAM in it is asking for massive blowback. I have to think these start up pinball companies are stretched thin in every way possible, and dependent on their presales and deposits help bring the product to consumers. Allegations, whether direct or implied, i.e. "I'm just asking the question..." can generate fear, and a run on deposits. I can envision how that could cripple a startup...and when the only "fact" is an email disconnect (error, delivery failure, spam blocker, etc.) this sort of an accusation is way out of line IMO.

Just because you think it doesn't mean you need to post it.

If the Wall Street Journal ran a piece suggesting that a new business was a scam it would put that business under. To the pinball world, PINSIDE is the Wall Street Journal, NY Times, CNN, MSNBC, and National Enquirer all in one.

These start ups represent an exciting chapter in pinball's resurgence. I don't believe in the pre-pay model, but I am cheering for every company to make it. Let's try and support these little guys and not throw around false accusations...give them a break.

#835 5 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

This was a miserable thread . . . but would starting a new one be helpful or just re-stir the issues and arguments fresh?

End it and forget it....

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#836 5 years ago

For the record, whysnow and I have a bet about whether he's going to get his predator by end of year.

*I wanted* to bet that the loser has to wear a dress all of Saturday at MGC. whysnow wasn't down, so it turned into a t-shirt with a design of the winner's choosing Saturday MGC, plus dinner. [Within reason; good taste and all that.] I figure that's good enough!

(I have no position on whether or not skit-b & predator is a scam. I'm just making a bet on whether or not whysnow will be playing *his* predator come January 1.)

#837 5 years ago

Sounds fair!

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#838 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Better yet would be if a moderator did not fan the flames on what appears to be a completely unsubstantiated claim based on wild speculation because people don't see an online presence on SkitB website.
Why is it OK to make up completely preposterous claims but if you then phrase them as questions (regarless of the implications and intent by some to hurt a start up pinball company) it is all OK and even Pinside moderators are jumping in?
I would have no problem if you said the purple elephant is a lack of communication from SkitB online or via email, but when you are attempting to bait a response by continuing to spread factless rumors then that is the definition of trolling.

Hilton, relax. The lack of communication doesn't appear to be something that is going to be addressed any time soon. People are going to continue to speculate on the Arnold situation whether you like it or not. Honestly, I'm curious . . .

For whatever it is worth, I was in on Predator for two years - as you know - and I never got my $250 deposit back either. If I wanted to jump all over a start up I would have done so; do not make inferences you do not understand...

#839 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Better yet would be if a moderator did not fan the flames on what appears to be a completely unsubstantiated claim based on wild speculation because people don't see an online presence on SkitB website.
Why is it OK to make up completely preposterous claims but if you then phrase them as questions (regarless of the implications and intent by some to hurt a start up pinball company) it is all OK and even Pinside moderators are jumping in?
I would have no problem if you said the purple elephant is a lack of communication from SkitB online or via email, but when you are attempting to bait a response by continuing to spread factless rumors then that is the definition of trolling.

It isn't "wild" speculation when you look at the facts that have been pointed out repeatedly (including active removal of videos from YouTube and their own website).

Any reasonable person (you are excluded since you have shown your obvious over the top bias on this issue) would look at the facts presented in this thread and start to wonder if there are issues with the Predator license (including Arnold).

That's the question.

Add to that the fact that the maker of Predator, Skit-B, has been painfully silent on this issue, and that is adding more fuel to the fire than any single post made in this entire thread, resulting in the continued speculation.

The fact is, if there is no issue at all with the Predator license, it would be the easiest thing in the world for them to come here and set the record straight.

There is simply no excuse for their failure to do that. None.

#840 5 years ago

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#841 5 years ago

The longer this thread goes on, the more hurt feelings there are.

Short of Skit-B coming in here and saying something, there is no more real purpose to this thread...unless you just love the drama.

There's a point where the argument is just never-ending. People dig their heels in, and nobody wants to actually discuss anything...they just want to beat the other side over the head with their opinion.

For now, I'm locking this one down.

Sorry, folks.
Pete

Edit: I know some of you are upset this is locked, because you were hoping that some "real" information would eventually be posted. (Again, short of Skit-B coming in here, that was never going to happen).

Understand that as soon as Skit-B sends out an email, or decides to post...I am very certain that another thread will be started immediately. Until that point, this thread had nowhere to go other than what we had already seen for the past dozen+ pages.

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