(Topic ID: 286786)

Precious Metals? Gold, Silver, Prospecting and Collecting.


By phil-lee

33 days ago



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  • 133 posts
  • 23 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 hours ago by phil-lee
  • Topic is favorited by 9 Pinsiders

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#101 17 days ago

After seeing how many dollars are being printed the last couple of months (and always, really) I started stacking silver rounds to store what I have (NOT to invest for a return as precious metals aren't an investment). I have a few sovereign mint coins from various countries so far, whatever I can find as close to the spot price per ounce as possible. I'm brand new to this and have already familiarized myself with several methods to verify my coins and junk silver like the ping test, ice cube test, and neodymium magnet test. It's like a treasure hunt!

Watch videos from Silver Dragons and others on YouTube. This one excellently sums up why you should buy (trade your dollars for) silver:

#102 17 days ago
Quoted from Jaeg:

This is super interesting to me. I'm curious how difficult is it to get proper permits and permissions needed such as water usage and what if anything do you have to do once a spot is mined out? Do you have to replant, grade in holes etc?

There are different levels of permits. The exploration permits are easy buy really low volume and just for testing. 60-120 days depending on state. You have to post a bond. A full mining permit can take 18 months-4 years. Full permits are broke down by disturbed acreage. You have to post a bond for everything. In certain counties you have to get a special use permit. This can be hard. Every large scale permit has public input at the state and county level. You have to go in front of the zoning committee and then county commissioners for approval. If commissioners vote you down you are stopped. You can appeal to district court. After you get a special use and state reclamation permit you have 30 days to post the bond. Your permit shows your mining plan. You have to reclaim constantly and replant grass or trees. Then you need a air emissions permit. It is a calculation and usually 12-18 months. Depending how close to the River you may need a army Corp of engineers permit. Water rights you need industrial or mining rights. You can buy or lease the water. Depending on the state you have to do engineering and get approval for your substitute water augmentation plan. 6-12 months. You may never get the permit and be stuck with fees. You can run all permits at the same time but have to have local approval prior to getting a state reclamation permit. I have been successful but have also had ones that politics required me to withdrawal or certain things that we could not comply with based on location to structures or neighbors. If you comply with the laws they use to not be able to deny you. That game has changed in recent years, as many are anti mining. This will cause the rise in construction materials to continue. Hope that helps.

#103 17 days ago
Quoted from Onwallst:

There are different levels of permits. The exploration permits are easy buy really low volume and just for testing. 60-120 days depending on state. You have to post a bond. A full mining permit can take 18 months-4 years. Full permits are broke down by disturbed acreage. You have to post a bond for everything. In certain counties you have to get a special use permit. This can be hard. Every large scale permit has public input at the state and county level. You have to go in front of the zoning committee and then county commissioners for approval. If commissioners vote you down you are stopped. You can appeal to district court. After you get a special use and state reclamation permit you have 30 days to post the bond. Your permit shows your mining plan. You have to reclaim constantly and replant grass or trees. Then you need a air emissions permit. It is a calculation and usually 12-18 months. Depending how close to the River you may need a army Corp of engineers permit. Water rights you need industrial or mining rights. You can buy or lease the water. Depending on the state you have to do engineering and get approval for your substitute water augmentation plan. 6-12 months. You may never get the permit and be stuck with fees. You can run all permits at the same time but have to have local approval prior to getting a state reclamation permit. I have been successful but have also had ones that politics required me to withdrawal or certain things that we could not comply with based on location to structures or neighbors. If you comply with the laws they use to not be able to deny you. That game has changed in recent years, as many are anti mining. This will cause the rise in construction materials to continue. Hope that helps.

Thanks for the detailed response. I suspected it was a complex and costly process that likely will only get worse.
You might have touched on this but what minerals or metals do you get other than gold. And if silver is a biproduct, what ratio is average of gold to silver. For example do you get 10 ounces of gold to 1 ounce of silver.

#104 17 days ago

Remember that simply Panning a potential Sight will tell the tale as to whether deposits exist.
Hone your Panning techniques and don't be afraid to dig down a little.
Look for Native Creeks that have been flowing since the beginning versus Man Made offshoots.
Go to the lowest point if you can. Dig deveral samples from the center of the Creek and to the sides.
Dig in curves of the Creek, move a few rocks.
Above all, have fun!

#105 17 days ago
Quoted from Jaeg:

Thanks for the detailed response. I suspected it was a complex and costly process that likely will only get worse.
You might have touched on this but what minerals or metals do you get other than gold. And if silver is a biproduct, what ratio is average of gold to silver. For example do you get 10 ounces of gold to 1 ounce of silver.

It depends on the location. Anything I do in Colorado we get aggregate. Alluvial granite rock is really hard. I crush it and sell it by rail or trucks. It is made in different sizes for strength known as road spec. It is put in concrete or asphalt and mixed with lower grade aggregate make road material. Round material won’t “bind” like mine does. I also get silica material used in the semiconductor industry. Silver is a by product. Anywhere between 10 to 30 percent of volume Troy ounce depends on location and source.

In Alaska there is no by products. Cost of operations is usually three to four times higher. You do run 24/7 there but shorter season. You bring in supply’s and material on a ice road in the winter.

It is true it all begins with a pan. I prospect constantly. I use a pan and a gold cube. Next I will “pot hole”, this is where I use a hoe and dig, pan and gold cube slowly all the way to first layer bedrock and I will usually go through bed rock to the next layer. That is the true test. That is usually were I find what the old timers missed. Gold bearing pay dirt is in layers. You have to know what layers to watch and mine. Big boulders are great! It is a natural gold pan. Glacier ancient dams are good also. Never trust outside reports or drill logs. Pot holing only way to really understand. There are many ancient rivers that don’t show above the surface.

#106 16 days ago
Quoted from Coindork:

Look up what the Hunt brothers did in the 80s.

When I was growing up back in the 70s my uncle would slip me a silver dollar every time I saw him. They were beat up circulated silver dollars that he had hoarded when he found out that they were no longer going to use silver in coins after 1964. By the time I was a senior in high school I had about 20 of them. I heard about the Hunt Brothers and the price of silver being up around $40 an ounce. I called around and went down to a place in Philadelphia that was buying silver for a pretty good price. I remember walking out of there with a huge roll of money. I didn't tell my parents, and I brought that roll of money with me to college the next year.

#107 16 days ago

https://www.novoresources.com/
Interesting video on large aussie gold field .

#108 14 days ago

The "Green" initiatives will rely heavily on copper and silver remaining affordable as well as obtainable. There is a lot of pressure right now for purchases of physical silver from "mom and pop" investors.
Pure speculation, I would not be surprised to see initiatives from the Feds to label these resources as Critical.
Much like key assets were labeled necessary during WW2 thus removing them from the Market along with the inherent speculation that leads to shortages.
I do not see Gold facing the same restrictions unless former buyers of Silver turn to the yellow stuff(which they will).
The Government turning to electric Fleet vehicles, massive increase in charging stations along with already astronomic production of wind turbines, solar cells and battery production will require a massive amount of copper and silver.
For it to be implemented successfully these resources must remain affordable.
Faith in precious metals threatens the same in fiat currencies (the dollar).

#109 13 days ago

For interest sake and further to being a key asset to technology, gold unlike silver and copper, does not oxidize (react, tarnish or corrode) and therefor it is critical to vital applications in the high tech, space, communications, medical, industrial and military fields. To expand a little on this topic, here are a few slides from a 2014 local talk I gave (various sources: World Gold Council, Goldcorp presentation 2014).

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#110 13 days ago

Excellent Presentation! Always loved good Powerpoints.
May be my imagination but some switch points on EM look gold, or gold plated.
I like all the Noble metals, Silicon and Manganese Bronze boat parts, Copper isn't too shabby either.

#111 11 days ago

I hold PM for Mad Max scenarios. In this scenario power is down or sparse, Internet access a precious luxury. Barter with something of value thats Universally recognized.
However security has always been a sticking point with precious metals.
Where the gold is, who has it are liabilities. "That guy just paid with a 2 gram bar, bet he has more"
Old timers buried it in yards, lowered jars of it into outhouses tied by a string under the seat, stashed it in chimneys and under stairwells.
My Friend owned an undocumented Civil War field Hospital (basically a really nice house in Souther Virginia).
They metal detected it and found stashes of coins and odd keepsakes in a predictable half circle in the back. Wounded patients couldn't go far but feared being ripped off while under the knife.
If crooks know you have a safe they throw a rusted 25 in your face to open it. Going around Town paying for things with PM when everybody else is struggling can go 2 ways, slipping tips for good will and some semblance of security or everybody watching and waiting to rob you.
Bottom line? If you are stacking for a grid down future keep your dealing with a few key Players, fuel, food, hardware.

#112 11 days ago

So where do you hold PM?
There is no perfect place. Home in a pinball machine coin tray? Slow them down a couple of hours.
A Bank safety deposit box? Safest, until the Bank locks its doors due to a run or other circumstance prevents access (Federal intervention, audit or internal limitations imposed by the Branch.)
Hidden? Backyard vault, mattress, vehicle? You must share the location with loved ones, opening them to repercussions.
Vehicles are open to random searches, the LE can seize cash and assets through forfeiture laws.
In the 1800's (and earlier) people sewed valuables inside their coat, or garment.
Home safe? Gun safe or any safe? A liability if anyone knows about it.
If you have precious metals keep it to yourself. This thread was a mistake in a way. Not a time to toot your horn when so many criminals roam.
Thanks for everyones input, good to meet a Miner, shipwreck aficionado and a professional coin Dealer.
As well as the Grey Men, everyday collectors you couldn't pick out from a crowd.
Embrace the Grey Man Concept.

#113 11 days ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

A Bank safety deposit box? Safest, until the Bank locks its doors due to a run or other circumstance prevents access (Federal intervention, audit or internal limitations imposed by the Branch.)

This is the only reasonable answer frankly. I don’t know anyone who keeps them at their house. I had a friend keep a large amount in a ski locker he owned, not a terrible place either but many of the same risks as a bank safety deposit box.

#114 9 days ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

This is the only reasonable answer frankly. I don’t know anyone who keeps them at their house. I had a friend keep a large amount in a ski locker he owned, not a terrible place either but many of the same risks as a bank safety deposit box.

I agree, bank safety deposit box is best and even better in the right country, Switzerland comes to mind. There are good reasons why banks and sovereigns hold and store vast amounts of PMs in vaults...safety, collateral, diversification, protection from (and allowing) fiat debasement etc. I don't buy the argument that there isn't enough gold to go back to the sanity of a gold standard...it's at what price! Back in 2010, $7,500 an oz. would have been needed to back paper fiat but now it seems that amount of increase is needed per month! Can't have that so, demonize it and print away but meanwhile, central banks hoard it and store it? Typical do as I say, not as I do.

In the Mad Max scenario (overhyped in IMO), unless you are dirt poor with nothing, thieves will be after anything anyways (incidentally, much like now), like booze, cigarettes, drugs, food, water, transportation, slaves etc. and PMs are just part of the list (like today). Gold and silver have always been desirable as part of a system, any system.

Personally, I like quality gold producing companies, their stocks and dividends. Let them worry about the risks of holding physical. It is one of (maybe the only) stock or other (fantasy) sector that is not nose bleed overvalued and pumped full of bs and hot air. Right now quality gold producers are making massive profits and increasing their dividends at a fairly good pace. My favourite KL (Kirkland Lake) even pays a US$ denominated dividend to its Canadian listed KL holders. Extra bonus!

#115 9 days ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

This is the only reasonable answer frankly. I don’t know anyone who keeps them at their house. I had a friend keep a large amount in a ski locker he owned, not a terrible place either but many of the same risks as a bank safety deposit box.

In the 90s we had a client that was buying 1000oz silver bars. He would paint them completely white and put them in his back yard as bricks around a planter box.
Sounds crazy, but no one knew what they were or even looked at them twice.

#116 9 days ago

I am beginning to feel that pinball machines are an actual hedge on par with precious metals.
They have a set price that remains solid even during periods of wild pricing.
The consistency of same or higher pricing during the last 14 Months has been remarkable, it would be interesting to see a chart detailing this period.
A desirable shopped EM has reached commodity status. An unlisted, unregulated untracked commodity.
So has the usual player-status or better fully working Bally SS machine.
Bottom line certain pinball machines can be an excellent hedge equal to gold and silver for wealth preservation.
Of course this can change at any moment.

Quoted from Coindork:

In the 90s we had a client that was buying 1000oz silver bars. He would paint them completely white and put them in his back yard as bricks around a planter box.
Sounds crazy, but no one knew what they were or even looked at them twice.

Wasn't there a true story of a Guy with a gold toilet?
In plain sight.

#117 8 days ago

While silver has been quietly creeping up to 29 spot an oz Gold jumps 30 to back over 1800.
Hard head stackers have not been swayed by ridiculous premiums over spot and continue buying what they can find.
I am curious what will happen if the Market corrects for a few days.

#118 8 days ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

I am curious what will happen if the Market corrects for a few days.

I remember back on black Monday, October 19, 1987 when the stock market swanned. It was more than a market dive though, as headlines show on a Toronto Globe and Mail newspaper I saved from Tuesday, the next day. Record breaking and tense geopolitical events were taking place.

Gold and gold stocks initially got a solid lift. However, after a tense week, on the following Monday, gold and gold stocks opened higher and then took a beating. This is much in line with standard procedure today by the PPT (Plunge Protection Team or officially known as the President's Working Group on Financial Markets), that is, they physically and psychologically manipulate the broader and PM markets.

They let a kneejerk PM rise take place and then crushed sentiment immediately after. Incidentally, the PPT were formed a few months after the 1987 crash on March 18, 1988. I expect more of the 'same old' today but given time, it did not stop gold then or will not now, from its inevitable rise.

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#119 8 days ago

I am glad you recognize the PPT, many do not.
No matter how skillful the days come when they cannot manipulate and all chaos takes over for awhile.
I could care less if silver goes to 30, or 50.
When it hits 100 (and it will) then my ears perk up.

#120 7 days ago

The younger Crowd enjoys quick results, hence their preference for Crypto Vs physical metals.
The older Crowd goes by the adage "Good things come to those who wait".
The few Royal Families and Monarchs left in the World hold gold.
Many Countries have went through the repatriation process to return reserves held in foreign vaults.
JP Morgan is famous for its bullion holdings, many others less famous hold more.
There is a good reason for this.

#121 6 days ago

An important point.

Gold is a vital high tech metal because of its unique properties as a superior electrical conductor that does not corrode or tarnish (unlike copper or silver). So for important, reliable and quick electrical connections that cannot fail gold is used in communication devices, computer networks, cell phones, ABS brakes, air bags, car keys, lab and medical equipment, smoke detectors, pacemakers, satellite dishes, TVs, jet engines, fuel cells, military devices and other applications.

Interesting that in that regard cryptos require gold, however gold does not require cryptos.

Quite ironic that the vast and growing amount of electrical use and connections required for the digital and crypto worlds requires an ever increasing amount of gold! I can embrace that fact and it essentially means that high tech and cryptos are dependent on gold.

Over a ten year average, 2008 - 2017, the technology sector used an average of 9% or 384 tonnes (~12.3 million troy ounces) of annual gold supply. (source: World Gold Council)

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#122 6 days ago
Quoted from ManyQuarters:

An important point.
Gold is a vital high tech metal because of its unique properties as a superior electrical conductor that does not corrode or tarnish (unlike copper or silver). So for important, reliable and quick electrical connections that cannot fail gold is used in communication devices, computer networks, cell phones, ABS brakes, air bags, car keys, lab and medical equipment, smoke detectors, pacemakers, satellite dishes, TVs, jet engines, fuel cells, military devices and other applications.
Interesting that in that regard cryptos require gold, however gold does not require cryptos.
Quite ironic that the vast and growing amount of electrical use and connections required for the digital and crypto worlds requires an ever increasing amount of gold! I can embrace that fact and it essentially means that high tech and cryptos are dependent on gold.
Over a ten year average, 2008 - 2017, the technology sector used an average of 9% or 384 tonnes (~12.3 million troy ounces) of annual gold supply. (source: World Gold Council)[quoted image]

Do you have a Chart that shows how much is thrown in landfills/ not recycled?
The chemical process to recover these metals can be gnarly but there are a couple of state of the art large scale facilities that make it look easy.

#123 5 days ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

Do you have a Chart that shows how much is thrown in landfills/ not recycled?
The chemical process to recover these metals can be gnarly but there are a couple of state of the art large scale facilities that make it look easy.

From the slide a few comments above that states that 1 billion cell phones are manufactured each year and only 10 % are recycled (2014 data), I will extrapolate and say this is roughly true for most PM's in related tech / consumer goods, so 90% of 384 tonnes = 345.6 tonnes not recycled annually. I would also guess that virtually all satellite / military applications are close to 0 % recycled for obvious reasons.

Another interesting point from my previous comment is that the 384 tonnes or 12.3 million troy ounces of gold used annually in the technology sector is greater than the top two gold producing companies annual gold production combined, Newmont (195.7 tonnes) and Barrick (170 tonnes). Essentially, technology applications of gold require the equivalent of the top two gold producers output every year. These companies and all the gold producers struggle to replace ounces mined every year. The trend is clear behind a backdrop of diminishing large gold discoveries, that is, the producing companies are increasingly replacing lost ounces by swallowing up other gold producers, for example: Newmont buying Goldcorp in 2019.

Here is another chart from the World Gold Council that shows world gold trading patterns from global exchange markets. It is truly a staggering amount of 'gold' that is traded on average every day, 2,692.2 tonnes or $US 112.2 BILLION. That, PER DAY, is almost equivalent to annual world gold mine production. This exposes the rampant paper gold ponzi trade, mainly taking place in London and New York, and why the price of gold is manipulated. Imagine TSHTF if even a small amount was (strategically) called in and actually removed for physical possession? This IMHO shows how extremely rare and important physical gold is and the utter fragility the fake paper gold market hopes to balance on.

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#124 5 days ago

There are those who envision one day the landfills being dug up to reclaim metals.
Thanks for the insight, a throwaway economy doesn't last forever.

#125 5 days ago

Locked in a good price on 2 gram gold bar and 1 ounce Krugerrand. Krugerrands were hot 20 years ago, not sure why they fell out of favor but always wanted one.
Now we will see what kind of delay is involved with shipping.

#126 5 days ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

Locked in a good price on 2 gram gold bar and 1 ounce Krugerrand. Krugerrands were hot 20 years ago, not sure why they fell out of favor but always wanted one.
Now we will see what kind of delay is involved with shipping.

During apartheid the importation of Krugerrands was illegal due to U.S. sanctions on South Africa.
It’s lifted now, so they are easier to get.

#127 4 days ago
Quoted from Coindork:

During apartheid the importation of Krugerrands was illegal due to U.S. sanctions on South Africa.
It’s lifted now, so they are easier to get.

That makes sense. Do you know if the purity for the gold and silver Kruger is the same as the American Eagle?

#128 4 days ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

That makes sense. Do you know if the purity for the gold and silver Kruger is the same as the American Eagle?

So basically all of the bullion coins like this are 1oz of gold. Doesn’t matter if it krugerrands, maple leafs, eagles etc.
I.E. the gold content is the same.
The refining methods are a little different depending on where they are minted.
A good example is the Canadian maple leaf, which prides itself on being the worlds most pure gold coin. The Canadian use electrolytic refining to get all the other trace metals out on a molecular level. The do this like 3 time to get the gold extremely pure.
It’s still one ounce of gold. It may weigh slightly less because all the other metals have been refined out of it, but it more pure at 99.999% and weighs 31.10gms.
A krugerrand is 91.67% pure and weighs 34gms. Same actual amount of gold in both, just one is refined purer than the other. Gold eagles are the same at 91.67% or 22k.

#129 4 days ago

You know your Business, thanks! My first ounce was a Maple Leaf, the owner of the Company gave all the employees one. This was around 1980, seems it had shot up but was rapidly dropping.
Once you get your first gold coin you are hooked for life.

#130 4 days ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

There are those who envision one day the landfills being dug up to reclaim metals.
Thanks for the insight, a throwaway economy doesn't last forever.

I know it probably won’t happen in my lifetime, but I like to envision future man mining the asteroid belt between Jupiter and Mars. There’s a lot of raw material and metal just floating around out there.
Many iron/nickel asteroids contain a lot of other metals in their alloy. Some contain precious metal and other rare earth elements in the mix.
It’s interesting to think about.

#131 4 days ago
Quoted from Coindork:

I know it probably won’t happen in my lifetime, but I like to envision future man mining the asteroid belt between Jupiter and Mars. There’s a lot of raw material and metal just floating around out there.
Many iron/nickel asteroids contain a lot of other metals in their alloy. Some contain precious metal and other rare earth elements in the mix.
It’s interesting to think about.

We have had some close calls in the past few years, it is possible one may deliver the goods directly to a neighborhood close by.
Looks like higher ten-year yields have led to a stronger dollar, tanking gold prices. Or something is "Broken" in the system as the talking finance heads keep saying.
Any other analysis/guesses?

#132 2 days ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

Looks like higher ten-year yields have led to a stronger dollar, tanking gold prices. Or something is "Broken" in the system as the talking finance heads keep saying.
Any other analysis/guesses?

I don't worry too much about the talking heads or other distractions, the trend is more than clear. For timing things I keep it simple and just keep an eye on the seasonal gold chart.

Gold vs. fiat (resized).jpgSeasonal gold (resized).png
#133 10 hours ago

Older people who may have been poor at one time in their life appreciate precious metals.
These Folks were angry when they took silver out of currency in 63. There were as many
rumors and conspiracies back then about this one act as there are today concerning Fed and Bank manipulation.
It didn't help that a few years later Nixon dropped the Gold standard and rendered gold possession illegal.
This fueled a Generation that eagerly purchased silver coins directly from the US Mint when it the option became available.
All of my Uncles, poor dirt and hog farmers suddenly waiting at the mail box for their silver shipments. Soon, they all had Uncirculated in sealed plastic bags, usually with some Emblem denoting what it was on the other side.
This fit neatly in a bank-envelope usually dark blue.
Kids began to receive them as stocking stuffers, we all became aware of "Real money" Versus the other kind.
I read a comment the other day, " Old Men with their silver and guns won't survive whats coming."
You need to understand where they are coming from.

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