(Topic ID: 98940)

PPS / MMR communication - it's NOT about the coin mechs (or is it?)


By jfh

5 years ago



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-3
#301 5 years ago

So, after all is said and done, what's the point of this thread? Are we all supposed to be inspired to cancel our orders? Are we all supposed to feel and admit we were ripped off? Are we supposed to form a mob and demand coin mechs?

You seem to not care for how Rick presents himself, and this was some sort of final straw, but if he's been one thing he's been consistent.

He's answered most questions, skipped some, and invited anyone who wants to call his cell.

You say this is a communication / trust issue. So, why are you a customer? I don't mean this as trolly or condescending, there is no tone of voice on Pinside, I'm curious why you still want to buy this machine at this time. Rules or not, I know a couple people who have successfully bailed after the coin mech issues blew up (not because of coin mechs) so I'm confident you could have, but you didn't.

The most powerful voice you have is your wallet, if you really want to make a statement, demand a refund. That is the very best way to show PPS how you really feel. My guess, because I don't know for sure, is that you could probably get one. If you bought from JJP, he's worked with a couple people to get refunds. I can PM you the details if you'd like.

Quoted from jfh:

A mod suggested that a new thread be created to discuss "the MMR coin mech issue", rather than having the discussion continue in the main MMR thread. I wasn't going to do that, but was encouraged to do so after some private discussions.

In thinking about it, I realized that some missed the point that the larger issue isn't about whether or not coin mechs ship with MMR, but rather how PPS handled the issue.

In case anyone doesn't know, here are the facts:

- Shortly after deposits on MMR became non-refundable, Rick announced that MMR would ship without coin mechs.
- This was the first indication that the remake would not ship equipped for a primary function of a commercial pinball machine and one that was obviously present in the original.
- Rick stated the reason for this omission was a logistics issue due to non-domestic orders and implied that it would be difficult for Stern to handle getting the right type of mechs with the right game on the assembly line.

There was a lot of discussion about the missing mechs. Rick stated that that PPS believed that only a small percentage of MMR buyers would be impacted by this decision, since the significant portion of the games produced were going into homes of private collectors who, for the most part, don't use/need coin mechs. I happen to agree with this point, and I know many others do, but using that as a rationalization/justification for not including mechs.

Any good project manager would conclude the same thing I did - that either this was a cost cutting move or the issue of needing different types of mechs by country wasn't appropriately planned for. I think it is the latter, as it doesn't make sense as a cost-cutting move for a number of reasons.

Instead of something like:

"Hey guys, we underestimated what was required to efficiently install the proper coin mechs during the production of MMR, so we believe it's best for the project that machines ship without them. PPS will send a set of coin mechs at no charge to the registered owner of a machine if they would like them. In addition, we would like to offer [something/discount coupon/whatever] to all owners as our thanks for your understanding on what we hope is a minor inconvenience."

What did we get?

- you guys don't understand how hard this is to do
- what's the big deal? Nobody uses mechs anyway
- if you want them, we'll sell them to you cheap (totally ignoring those folks would essentially pay for them twice)
- It wasn't our decision not to include the mechs, it was our contractor's fault.
- feigned ignorance over "missing parts"
- total ignorance of the real issue.

I don't think this is acceptable. I believe, as I know many do, that Rick has done (and plans to do) much for the pinball community and I am quite grateful for his efforts. I was one of the first to place an order for MMR, despite the fact I own a pristine original, as I wanted to show support for MMR and the concept of reproducing classic WMS titles. I want a new AFM, CC, BBB and maybe some others.

There seems to be a disturbing habit when someone questions a PPS decision/move. Many of the replies we get don't acknowledge the issue, but
- repeat the original answer, as if we didn't read or understand it the first time.
- tell us we wouldn't understand the issues involved
- slyly disparage the person asking the question
- totally ignore any constructive criticism or suggestions
- fail to attribute any responsibility to Rick and/or PPS. Everything is someone else's fault.

Let me be perfectly clear - the issue that mechs aren't shipping with the game don't bother me anywhere near the perception I have that Rick is tone deaf to the concerns that have been expressed in the MMR thread (mechs is the latest, but certainly not the first). Yes, I can afford mechs if I want them, but that's not the point - I shouldn't even have to think about having to do so.

Yes, nobody cancelled their order over missing coin mechs (which would have cost them $1k). Would anyone have cancelled before the deposit deadline? I suspect not, but no one had the opportunity.

Most don't care about the missing coin mechs. Fine. What if the game were to ship without legs? Most of us have a spare set or two - no big deal, right? What if it was "too hard" to figure out what power supply needed to be installed in the game?

Doesn't matter - it's not a parts issue. It's a communication and trust issue. I don't want snarky answers from someone who doesn't think I'm intelligent enough to handle the truth. If I mess up, I take responsibility for it. I expect others (including Rick) to do the same.

I say it's not about the mechs - what do you think?

#302 5 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

So, after all is said and done, what's the point of this thread? Are we all supposed to be inspired to cancel our orders? Are we all supposed to feel and admit we were ripped off? Are we supposed to form a mob and demand coin mechs?

Good lord.

If the OP hasn't cancelled his order for MMr, why in the world would you interpret his thread as being an attempt to get others to cancel their orders?

"Form a mob"?

Hyperbole much?

#303 5 years ago

So, answer the question then. He's really mad, he's down on the project, he doesn't trust Rick or care for his communication. Why buy? That's all I was asking.

Quoted from RobT:

Good lord.

If the OP hasn't cancelled his order for MMr, why in the world would you interpret his thread as being an attempt to get you to cancel your orders?

Form a mob?

Hyperbole much?

#304 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I bet if you called Jack and complained about this he would in fact . . . [and] send you some coin mechs to make you happy.

I actually am planning on getting in touch with Jack and asking him to throw in the coin mech(s). He'll either tell me he will be glad to do it, or tell me with what little profit margin he has on the pin, he can't possibly do it. And I'll just have to live with that. It is not HIS obligation to do this though. It belongs with PPS.

#305 5 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

So, answer the question then. He's really mad, he's down on the project, he doesn't trust Rick or care for his communication. Why buy? That's all I was asking.

No, that's not "all you were asking".

You made a bunch of other comments about convincing people to cancel their orders, forming a mob, etc. Remember?

-2
#306 5 years ago

Comments usually end in periods, questions end with question marks. I was genuinely wondering, those were the best ideas I had.

I made no comments about that at all.

Quoted from RobT:

No, that's not "all you were asking".

You made a bunch of other comments about convincing people to cancel their orders, forming a mob, etc. Remember?

Quoted from jalpert:

Are we all supposed to be inspired to cancel our orders? Are we all supposed to feel and admit we were ripped off? Are we supposed to form a mob and demand coin mechs?

#307 5 years ago

"I know the pinball and coin mechs can co-exist peacefully."
-mof

#308 5 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

Comments usually end in periods, questions end with question marks. I was genuinely wondering, those were the best ideas I had.
I made no comments about that at all.

Wow.

11
#309 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Again, these are just concerns. Whether they rise to the level of "I want my money back" is doubtful for most, I would think. But that doesn't mean that questions and concerns about this issue shouldn't be discussed.

Exacty Rob. I don't want my money back. I want the pin. If I get screwed out of two coin mechs, then I'll just have to grin and bear it because I don't want to back out on owning one of these. BUT . . . I do have the right to call their hand on playing such a dirty trick on us buyers. Announcing this cut AFTER the freeze was not kosher. And even if they did it before the freeze, I'd still stay 'in', but I'd be contesting this with every fiber of my being.

There is a very simple conclusion to reach in this fiasco, and that is: IT IS JUST NOT RIGHT! It really puts a bad taste in my mouth with someone who could pull such a stunt. I paid for the damned things and I shouldn't have to pay again!!! And it will certainly be "buyer beware" if or when I consider buying a future pin from them. I'll learn from my own naivete. On the next pin, I will request a complete itemized sheet on everything that is coming on the new pin so I can assess what is being cut and have it in writing!!! A 'contract' of sorts, so they are bound to what they said we are getting. That's been a problem all along. We knew very little of their plans on what shortcuts they would be taking. We took them at face value to receive a fully functional coin operated machine, and that didn't happen.

#310 5 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

So, after all is said and done, what's the point of this thread? Are we all supposed to be inspired to cancel our orders? Are we all supposed to feel and admit we were ripped off? Are we supposed to form a mob and demand coin mechs?

jalpert . . . you make some good points. The only reason I continue to whip this horse is in hoping Rick reads this and sees how we feel we have been violated. The 'protesters' are growing. Surely, he sees this. I hope he clues in on how much PR damage this has caused and what it is doing to his image and that of PPS.

As a businessman, if I saw this much clamoring from my customer base, I'd be closely examining my own conscience, for I certainly would not feel very good if I saw so much negative feedback from something I did to my 'trusting' customers. That's our only hope: Reinforcing to him how much we didn't like this and how unfair it was. We might not change his mind on this one, but maybe in the future he will be more forthright in spelling out what to expect when we buy a pin.

The only way you can change things is to voice your opinion and hope it is seen/heard. If that was to happen to me in my business, I'd have to cave in and do something to regain my customer's respect. And I'd probably eat the cost of something equivalent to this coin mech fiasco to continue to have the faith of my customers. I'd want them to think highly of me FIRST, and THEN continue buying from me. Sometimes honor is more important than money.

I don't want to cancel my order. I want the pin. I just have to live with the outcome.

#311 5 years ago

FYI . . . to answer some concerns voiced on here, this was posted on the PPS site:

More MMR FAQ 7/25/14 …

Q: Does MMR come with a printed manual?
A: Yes

Q: Will there be available printed schematics?
A: Yes

Q: Will the game include wing bolt nuts for securing the head on location?
A: Yes

Q: Will there be a 110 service outlet for soldering or lights?
A: Yes, same as original

Q: How will the game be updated?
A: Customer will boot off Mirco SD card. System will automatically update onboard flash. Updates will be available on the web to load onto SD card.

Q: Does the coin door have a high power lockout?
A: Yes, this is a UL/CE requirement

Q: Original had helpful scrolling text in the test menu when you hit the start button, telling fuse type and number, connector locations, etc – will MMR?
A: It will display original information. We will add a document explaining how to translate this from original system to the MMR system.

Q: Will test reports (credit dot) still work as it does on original MM?
A: Yes

Q: How are boards below the play field protected against debris?
A: Driver boards are backed by Formex (modern replacement for fishpaper, power supply PCB is located in the metal case in the front right of the cabinet with on/off switch fuse, etc.

#312 5 years ago
Quoted from Pintucky:

available printed schematics

Sounds like an option you pay extra for. Like available ABS brakes. lol.

#313 5 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

So, after all is said and done, what's the point of this thread? Are we all supposed to be inspired to cancel our orders? Are we all supposed to feel and admit we were ripped off? Are we supposed to form a mob and demand coin mechs?

I think I was pretty clear about the point of the thread in my OP and it was more about how Rick/PPS handled the issue, rather than the issue of mechs not shipping itself.

I wanted to see what others thought to see if I was alone and to see if the PPS estimates that only a tiny fraction of the customers cared. Clearly what we see from this thread is that people do think it was handled poorly by PPS and that PPS may have also underestimated the number of people who were bothered by either issue.

I had hoped to see a response from PPS admitting what everyone now knows which is that this was also handled poorly. I really wanted to see PPS say "we'll make it right by sending mechs to those who are really upset by our announcement they won't be installed on the game". That wasn't my suggestion, but that of a number of other people. An incredibly logical and simple solution if you believe the PPS estimates are correct.

What really got me was why such a logical solution was totally ignored (i.e. Not responded to) by Rick in both the threads and private messages when he responded to ideas that were a lot less logical. There had to be a reason, but it is now abundantly evident we will never get the real story on mech-gate because that would require Rick to answer questions he clearly wants to ignore.

I've also said that I think MMR is/will be a great product. I want it to succeed because I want to own likely future titles.

Not liking how someone chooses which questions to answer is a far cry from "wow, you must really hate this product - why would you ever want one" (which seems to be a conclusion a lot of people have jumped to in my case).

Was I trying to incite people to cancel their orders? Of course not. I'm pretty sure there isn't even a hint of that suggestion in any of my posts. (I wouldn't cancel an order where I would forfeit $1K because I was t getting $50 in parts. I've walked away from deals before on principle, but it seems that would be cutting off your nose to spite your face)

Are people supposed to feel/admit being ripped off? Of course not, though I totally understand that some do.

All I want people to do is to not give PPS (or anyone else) a free pass when they do something that so many people see as wrong on one level (poor communication with their customers) or another (taking something away, whatever it is, at the 11th hour after locking deposits) or even worse (maybe Rick wasn't being honest when he said he posted as soon as he knew there was an issue).

People got really upset over WOZ delays, over the Tron coin door, over Stern games coming out with beta level code. It sure seems like JJP and Stern are working to see that those are historical issues, not perpetual ones. Did most people impacted by any of those cancel their orders? No, though WOZ may have pushed the envelope.

No reason PPS/CGC should be any different.

#314 5 years ago

I think they should have coin mech's, imo....

#315 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

You keep saying this, but it is missing the point.
Why is it wrong to voice concerns over the missing coin mechs

You're missing my point.

It's not wrong to voice concerns over the missing coin mechs.

-It's wrong to come up with conspiracies like "what ELSE will be missing!?"
-It's wrong to infer the game is incapable of taking coins as though it's a Zizzle or Costco Stern
-It's wrong to keep bitching here if you haven't called Rick or your distributor to vent to the people who need to hear it.
-It's wrong to keep pretend-peeping into Rick's bank account as though he's a dastardly villain rolling in coin-mech cash.

Even though I don't personally care, it will agree that it was a bonehead move and backlash should have been expected. It would have been better for Rick to offer them for those who wanted them or needed them (operators). That way, everyone's happy. If the international mechs would have slowed down production, this keeps production speedy & lets people who need mechs get mechs.

#316 5 years ago

I have no horse in the race, but I wanted to make one point that I haven't heard made yet.

1. This "incident" at its core, is about not meeting customer expectations, and the lack of an agreeable outcome to all customers in the face of that. I won't say more about that, since it's been well-addressed already.

Some of the responders in this thread have really puzzled me. Some have said, "I don't care about coin mechs..." I'd like to address those people with my point:

If I were going to own an MMR, I wouldn't be able to predict at least three things:

1. Can I be 100% sure I'll never choose to trade or sell it?
2. If I choose to sell or trade, can I predict if my next buyer will care about coin mechs?
3. What will I do, if I choose to route the game for a short or long while?

Bottom line is, I shouldn't be asking those questions when I buy a pinball machine.

In short, it's easy for me to say right now, "Yeah, I don't care about silly coin mechs (in the immediate short term.)"

I question whether you can predict with 100% certainty whether you'll for sure hold the pin for the next 30 years in your home, and never wish at some point that you had mechs in there... How can you be so sure you won't care at some point?

I'm sorry that we are examining asking these questions... It seems like a situation that can be still be remedied.
-mof

#317 5 years ago
Quoted from mof:

I have no horse in the race, but I wanted to make one point that I haven't heard made yet.
1. This "incident" at its core, is about not meeting customer expectations, and the lack of an agreeable outcome to all customers in the face of that. I won't say more about that, since it's been well-addressed already.
Some of the responders in this thread have really puzzled me. Some have said, "I don't care about coin mechs..." I'd like to address those people with my point:
If I were going to own an MMR, I wouldn't be able to predict at least three things:
1. Can I be 100% sure I'll never choose to trade or sell it?
2. If I choose to sell or trade, can I predict if my next buyer will care about coin mechs?
3. What will I do, if I choose to route the game for a short or long while?
Bottom line is, I shouldn't be asking those questions when I buy a pinball machine.
In short, it's easy for me to say right now, "Yeah, I don't care about silly coin mechs (in the immediate short term.)"
I question whether you can predict with 100% certainty whether you'll for sure hold the pin for the next 30 years in your home, and never wish at some point that you had mechs in there... How can you be so sure you won't care at some point?
I'm sorry that we are examining asking these questions... It seems like a situation that can be still be remedied.
-mof

We're not talking about something that's missing and irreplaceable. This is comparable to a Stern Pro that comes pre-drilled for a shaker but doesn't include the shaker. If you want the shaker, you CAN put it in. Likewise - you CAN put the coin mech in. The coin door hasn't been redesigned to never function with a coin mech. We're talking about a standard Happ coin door. A mech is a part that pops in and out easily.

Once again, I think most people do not know what a coin mech is!!!!

#318 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

We're not talking about something that's missing and irreplaceable.

You would defend this problem if the game came missing everything inside as long as you get yours and can play it. Like the coin box, the manual, the goody bag, etc...... You don't need any of those things to play. All these items should come with this machine. Period.

#319 5 years ago

Seems any disappointment can be avoided by only buying a game once you see it and play it... but that wouldn't be any fun!

#320 5 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

You would defend this problem if the game came missing everything inside as long as you get yours and can play it. Like the coin box, the manual, the goody bag, etc...... You don't need any of those things to play. All these items should come with this machine. Period.

Whatevs.

I'm not defending the problem. However, the reaction to it is so entirely overblown out of proportion and filled with misinformation. The reaction has become worse than the "problem".

#321 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

The reaction has become worse than the "problem".

Just wait until you have to buy a special wiring harness to make your shaker work.

-3
#322 5 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

Just wait until you have to buy a special wiring harness to make your shaker work.

There you go, proving my point. Misinformation. Libelous conspiracy theory BS. It's a shitty thing to do. Worse than missing coin mechs, IMO.

#323 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Misinformation.

It was only a comparison. What is important to some, may not be to others. But you would be pissed wouldn't you?

-1
#324 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

I think we will never get the real story on mech-gate because...

It's all in your head.

14
#325 5 years ago

meme.jpg

#326 5 years ago
Quoted from Pintucky:

The only reason I continue to whip this horse is in hoping Rick reads this and sees how we feel we have been violated. The 'protesters' are growing. Surely, he sees this. I hope he clues in on how much PR damage this has caused and what it is doing to his image and that of PPS.

It does. I have no horse in that race, no interest in MMr, but genuine interest in seeing some rare games remade. I will think twice before preordering anything. Saving $20 on a $8k?? Geez...

#327 5 years ago

Sorry . . . this didn't come out the way I thought it would. You'll have to read between the lines. I have responded to each of your concerns. Thanks, Mike

Quoted from Rarehero:

It's not wrong to voice concerns over the missing coin mechs.

I haven't agree with your postings much at all, avoided talking with you, but SOME of what you say here warrants comments:

-It's wrong to come up with conspiracies like "what ELSE will be missing!?"

Well. . . we had this one totally unexpected thing thrown at us. Why not something else? I actually thought of this as an impending problem of more surprises. I think it is a legitimate concern.

-It's wrong to infer the game is incapable of taking coins as though it's a Zizzle or Costco Stern

You are correct here. A few folks thought this meant no coin door. Hopefully, once one gets the coin mechs installed the pin will function correctly.

-It's wrong to keep bitching here if you haven't called Rick or your distributor to vent to the people who need to hear it.

Partially right. I am going to call my distributor. I have continued my rants on here in hopes that Rick sees them, plus the many more that are joining in on this thread expressing their outrage about it, and he starts 'thinking', and maybe comes up with a solution to appease the angry villagers. Momentum IS growing with the coin mech supporters posting on here. Surely, he will see it.

-It's wrong to keep pretend-peeping into Rick's bank account as though he's a dastardly villain rolling in coin-mech cash.

Well . .. this is a reasonably large amount of savings he is making. I'm not concerned with his bank account. But one has to wonder what was the real motive behind this. Was it truly an assembly line problem? Or, just an easy way to move the profit numbers up on the old ledger sheet.

Even though I don't personally care, it will agree that it was a bonehead move and backlash should have been expected. It would have been better for Rick to offer them for those who wanted them or needed them (operators). That way, everyone's happy. If the international mechs would have slowed down production, this keeps production speedy & lets people who need mechs get mechs.

The best thing you've said! Exactly the way I feel! A wrong move and an apparent easy one to resolve.

#328 5 years ago
Quoted from mof:

I have no horse in the race, but I wanted to make one point that I haven't heard made yet.
1. This "incident" at its core, is about not meeting customer expectations, and the lack of an agreeable outcome to all customers in the face of that. I won't say more about that, since it's been well-addressed already.
Some of the responders in this thread have really puzzled me. Some have said, "I don't care about coin mechs..." I'd like to address those people with my point:
If I were going to own an MMR, I wouldn't be able to predict at least three things:
1. Can I be 100% sure I'll never choose to trade or sell it?
2. If I choose to sell or trade, can I predict if my next buyer will care about coin mechs?
3. What will I do, if I choose to route the game for a short or long while?
Bottom line is, I shouldn't be asking those questions when I buy a pinball machine.
In short, it's easy for me to say right now, "Yeah, I don't care about silly coin mechs (in the immediate short term.)"
I question whether you can predict with 100% certainty whether you'll for sure hold the pin for the next 30 years in your home, and never wish at some point that you had mechs in there... How can you be so sure you won't care at some point?
I'm sorry that we are examining asking these questions... It seems like a situation that can be still be remedied.
-mof

Do you understand what a coin mech even is?

#329 5 years ago
Quoted from tracelifter:

This is a coin mech on drugs.

CMOD.jpg 136 KB

Or, a brain on a coin mech.

#330 5 years ago

Were coin mechs promised in the beginning..?

I forget..

cmb03.jpg
#331 5 years ago
Quoted from Pintucky:

...I've got to go now. I'm trying to wire up a 24" diameter hot air balloon to my WOZ pin that will rise to the top of my 25 foot ceiling when the ball kills out all the lights on the balloon on the PF. I decided to hook this up to my abandoned 2nd knocker still inside the cabinet and powering it through the primary knocker, plus wired to the 'Start' Button to make the big Hot Air balloon launch. I drilled a hole in the left side of my cabinet and hooked a coat hanger to the knocker lugs hoping this will power the big balloon to rise to the ceiling traveling a catgut string that is invisible. I'll let you know if I blow any fuses or transistors. But I think this will work!!!
Mike

Nice!!!

I'd recommend adding a remote skylight that opens on your ceiling that the balloon can go through. That way the neighbors know when you're playing. Connect the skylight to the Witch mech, and have it open and close when the Witch goes up and down.

I have a sawzall you can borrow.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#332 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

There you go, proving my point. Misinformation. Libelous conspiracy theory BS. It's a shitty thing to do. Worse than missing coin mechs, IMO.

It is more of a logical extension of what has transpired...

people easily should question>>>hmmm.... company opts to not included a part and gives a less than stellar response about why (which is apparently not satisfactory to current or potential future customers) so the next logical question is "What else will they cut costs on and will there be more surprises?"

That is how people can easily come up with questions like>>>
No wiring harness for the "bonus" shaker?

It is far from libelous or conspiracy theory. People can legally discuss and question all sorts of issues and you inferring it is against the law is the silliest thing in this thread (and that is saying alot because I have said some silly shit).

#333 5 years ago
Quoted from Borygard:

Nice!!!
I'd recommend adding a remote skylight that opens on your ceiling that the balloon can go through. That way the neighbors know when you're playing. Connect the skylight to the Witch mech, and have it open and close when the Witch goes up and down.
I have a sawzall you can borrow.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

Watch out Mike your house might take off and drift away before I get there Saturday!

#334 5 years ago

All this coin mech Talk

As we don't use qtr coin mech's in Australia, we remove them from every new game that comes here.

I have a box full of them, if someone wants to pay the freight they can have them and distribute them to people who want, need or can't afford them?

#335 5 years ago
Quoted from Zitt:

Activating the switch doesn't prove the coin door isnt bent - nor some mechanical issue that prevents the coin op portion to work. A finger != a coin.

If the coin door closes and the paint isn't damaged, it isn't bent. Most people siting machines would have plenty of mechs for whatever currency their country uses ready to go and if they can't afford to buy one, can they really afford high-end amusement machines?

#336 5 years ago

That's cool. Personally, if I lost trust in PPS I would bail, but I think they've done a great job so far. I really do understand where you're coming from, the mechs should be included.

In terms of JJP and not shipping games or Stern shipping incomplete games, I don't think this is that. Without having the game, or having a shell of a game code wise, you are either not playing the game at all (I know, obvious) or your gamplay is severly limited or affected. With the coin mechs, you can throw $20 at it and make it go away.

I have a feeling that if you ask any Stern owner with incomplete code, or any JJP owner who is still waiting for their game, if they could pay $20 to make their problem go away, they would pay it in a hearbeat.

Quoted from jfh:

I think I was pretty clear about the point of the thread in my OP and it was more about how Rick/PPS handled the issue, rather than the issue of mechs not shipping itself.
I wanted to see what others thought to see if I was alone and to see if the PPS estimates that only a tiny fraction of the customers cared. Clearly what we see from this thread is that people do think it was handled poorly by PPS and that PPS may have also underestimated the number of people who were bothered by either issue.
I had hoped to see a response from PPS admitting what everyone now knows which is that this was also handled poorly. I really wanted to see PPS say "we'll make it right by sending mechs to those who are really upset by our announcement they won't be installed on the game". That wasn't my suggestion, but that of a number of other people. An incredibly logical and simple solution if you believe the PPS estimates are correct.
What really got me was why such a logical solution was totally ignored (i.e. Not responded to) by Rick in both the threads and private messages when he responded to ideas that were a lot less logical. There had to be a reason, but it is now abundantly evident we will never get the real story on mech-gate because that would require Rick to answer questions he clearly wants to ignore.
I've also said that I think MMR is/will be a great product. I want it to succeed because I want to own likely future titles.
Not liking how someone chooses which questions to answer is a far cry from "wow, you must really hate this product - why would you ever want one" (which seems to be a conclusion a lot of people have jumped to in my case).
Was I trying to incite people to cancel their orders? Of course not. I'm pretty sure there isn't even a hint of that suggestion in any of my posts. (I wouldn't cancel an order where I would forfeit $1K because I was t getting $50 in parts. I've walked away from deals before on principle, but it seems that would be cutting off your nose to spite your face)
Are people supposed to feel/admit being ripped off? Of course not, though I totally understand that some do.
All I want people to do is to not give PPS (or anyone else) a free pass when they do something that so many people see as wrong on one level (poor communication with their customers) or another (taking something away, whatever it is, at the 11th hour after locking deposits) or even worse (maybe Rick wasn't being honest when he said he posted as soon as he knew there was an issue).
People got really upset over WOZ delays, over the Tron coin door, over Stern games coming out with beta level code. It sure seems like JJP and Stern are working to see that those are historical issues, not perpetual ones. Did most people impacted by any of those cancel their orders? No, though WOZ may have pushed the envelope.
No reason PPS/CGC should be any different.

#337 5 years ago

Throwing a tantrum won't get you guys your coin mechs. Stop whining and buy one if you need one.

#338 5 years ago

JFH, Instead of promoting speculation and conspiracy theories with this topic, you should call Rick and talk directly to him. He has been very open with communication during this project, he has been here in this forum all the way answering questions and even published his phone number for people to give him a call in case you need to talk to him. That is the best way to find out if you can solve what is a big problem for you (and others)....

#340 5 years ago

Hold on a sec Pezpunk the man opened a thread instead of posting on the main PPS thread to be able to gripe about it.

#341 5 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

Throwing a tantrum won't get you guys your coin mechs. Stop whining and buy one if you need one.

On the flip side, treating customers poorly and failing to address percieved issues will not win you more business or more future customers. It becomes an esp slippery slope when you have opened the door for more questions.

-1
#342 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

This is comparable to a Stern Pro that comes pre-drilled for a shaker but doesn't include the shaker. If you want the shaker, you CAN put it in. Likewise - you CAN put the coin mech in. The coin door hasn't been redesigned to never function with a coin mech. We're talking about a standard Happ coin door. A mech is a part that pops in and out easily.

C'mon Greg, you're not that stupid.

A shaker is an accessory. A coin mech is an integral part of the machine.

Every commercial pinball machine manufactured in quantity for the past century or so has shipped with a device to take coins. The one exception I know of is Gene's BBB run, and he was bleeding cash towards the end.

#343 5 years ago

It was until about 2007. Ever since, I think you can argue that it isn't.

Quoted from metallik:

A coin mech is an integral part of the machine.

#344 5 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

It was until about 2007. Ever since, I think you can argue that it isn't.

??? How the heck does one add credits to a location game w/o a coin mech?

DBVs sure aren't the norm from the factory, but it would be cool if they were.

#345 5 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

It was until about 2007. Ever since, I think you can argue that it isn't.

"coin mech" = "money-taking device"

Out of the box, MMR cannot earn on location. It's balls are cut off.

#346 5 years ago
Quoted from Pintucky:

FYI . . . to answer some concerns voiced on here, this was posted on the PPS site:
More MMR FAQ 7/25/14 …

Hey, they used my list as a basis for answering questions! Bonus points for anyone that noticed what was omitted, but it was nice to see published answers to a lot of these questions...

-1
#347 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

We're not talking about something that's missing and irreplaceable. This is comparable to a Stern Pro that comes pre-drilled for a shaker but doesn't include the shaker. If you want the shaker, you CAN put it in. Likewise - you CAN put the coin mech in.

What if the game didn't come with dragon wings? Or the translight? Or bolts for the legs? Or legs?

None of those are irreplaceable either.

It would only be comparable to the Stern Pro if the MMR flyer said "ready for coin mechs (not included)"

#348 5 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

Stop whining and buy one if you need one.

Or do what I did and just bail on this wishy washy project. If they won't give you your money back, we'll get RobT involved.

#349 5 years ago

They don't. The pinball market has shifted to a much larger percentage of home buyers, that was the point. Coin mechs are not an integral part of the machine since the majority of the games are not going to operators. Per Rick, most games are going to the home market.

It didn't used to be this way, but times have changed.

Quoted from Whysnow:

??? How the heck does one add credits to a location game w/o a coin mech?

DBVs sure aren't the norm from the factory, but it would be cool if they were.

Quoted from jalpert:

It was until about 2007. Ever since, I think you can argue that it isn't.

#350 5 years ago

Op,
you are right. This issue, in this thread is about trust.

I was never informed in advance, when the deposit would be frozen.
I was never 'given notice'

JJP has my e-mail, my phone number, and my order number.

Quoted from PPS:

Refund Policy for LE's was:
- Deposit is refundable before WMS Approval (moving us into production) on the game - this was stated to be expected by end of the year, hopefully sooner - production wants/needs to know 'firm' orders to know how many to produce. We will give notice that this happened and then I expect we expect to have any cancellations within a small number of days which we will specify.

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