(Topic ID: 98940)

PPS / MMR communication - it's NOT about the coin mechs (or is it?)


By jfh

5 years ago



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#251 5 years ago
Quoted from littlecammi:

I don't trust anyone who already has an original MM and ordered an MMrLE anyway (especially if they say they are intending to keep both). And who buys a duplicate just "to show support" anyway?

I've done this with things that don't cost $8000 dollars. I suppose its a matter of perspective. If I was a multimillionaire, I might have bought 3 to show support.

As it stands I am not, and decided not to get any because my wallet can't handle even 1 at the moment.

#252 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

Not all the games have been paid for in full. Don't know about the other distributors, but final payments on games purchased from PPS aren't due yet.
It certainly takes more coordination to match the proper country mechs to the right game on the line, but does PPS have the shipping addresses of customers that ordered through other distributors? If not, that could be part of the issue. But you would suspect they do, since they are tracking original owner for the warranty.
You actually bring up another solution - if they have the addresses and if it was too hard to match them on the line, just ship the mechs separately using the owners address to determine mech type. That would have been simple (Of course, that would have probably been the most expensive solution of any that has been proposed, assuming that the customer wasn't asked to pay for shipping the mechs)
But I'll go back to this - if PPS estimates show that relatively few would be impacted by not shipping mechs in the game and you assume the majority of games are being shipped in the US, why not just ship them separately to those who ask?
I don't think we are ever going to know the real story and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter. If PPS learns from this and admits (at least internally) that the way this was handled was a PR nightmare and fixes it so something similar doesn't happen down the line, then that's good. But until then, I'm going to be disappointed that folks at PPS and/or CGC think that their customers or potential customers can't handle or shouldn't know the truth.
(I keep seeing people post "Why not just call or write Rick?" - what makes you think that a private answer is going to be different than a public one? Or that you will even get an answer? Rick has been very generous in encouraging anyone with a concern to call or write. But that's a two-edged sword that can just as easily be used to shut an uncomfortable topic down as it can be to provide transparency)

Dude! Even if you flip burgers for a living, the amount of time you've spent chastising from your high horse about the coin mechs (or not about the coin mechs?) could have bought you several new coin mechs!

11
#253 5 years ago
Quoted from taylor34:

It's a little hard to complain about the manufacturer being 'cheap' when they're including a $200 shaker motor that the original didn't have plus offering custom trim. Those aren't things that happen when you're trying to 'cheap' out. At least in my opinion.

Step back and think.

The price of this pin is at the level of optioned out machines. They are on price point of machines like Woz, and Stern LEs. $200 dollar shaker motor? Custom Trim? And a donkey balancing on a circus ball too please!

.........8K is a premium price. The machine should be a premium item. They should be sending out mechs to each and every customer on their dime.

#254 5 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

MMR is making Rick (and others) TONS of money.

You got that right.

From what I understand, after the machines are built at stern they are going to Chicago coin for final inspection and packaging. I don't understand why these things cant be included in the accessory box or coin box at Chicago coin right before packaging?

I hope we don't find out the wiring isn't there and that is the real reason.

#255 5 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Absolutely. But it only cost a lil over half what the MMR costs, and actually includes coin mechs. IMVE is what we bought after we canceled our MMR.

I think the point is it's hard to complain about a remake sapping all the money for new, innovative games from the market when you take the cash you would have spent on one remake and spend it on ... another remake. Of course you saved $3k+ going with IMVE, but unless you spend that on another NIB, non-remake title (as opposed to beer and burgers as most of us probably would) you're not supporting the development of new title any more than the people buying MMR.

-1
#256 5 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

but unless you spend that on another NIB, non-remake title (as opposed to beer and burgers as most of us probably would) you're not supporting the development of new title any more than the people buying MMR.

I agree in part, but IMVE is much different than MMR. Biggest being that IMVE is still Stern's current system. All they had to do to tool up the VE run was add a couple tiny boards to the lamp matrix to smooth out the LEDs they now use instead of incandescents, and tweak the software for these LEDs (and add one for Monger). Other than that it's about the same tech as Mustang. There's precedent as well... Stern ran TSPP and LOTR for multiple years. IMVE isn't much different than that last late LOTR (non-LE) run.

MMR is a whole lot more time/effort/money being spent on a 17 year old game.

#257 5 years ago

somewhere is a far far land......Teekee is laughing uncontrollably at this thread.

#258 5 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

I think the point is it's hard to complain about a remake sapping all the money for new, innovative games from the market when you take the cash you would have spent on one remake and spend it on ... another remake. Of course you saved $3k+ going with IMVE, but unless you spend that on another NIB, non-remake title (as opposed to beer and burgers as most of us probably would) you're not supporting the development of new title any more than the people buying MMR.

An interesting point. I think in the current marketplace any game built by the same company that designed it would just be considered a re-run game, or maybe re-issued. Even if it does contain a different level of trim and detail than previous runs. When a game is being run by a different company than what originally designed it, and the design of the current run is substantially different I would think would qualify as a re-make.

Not that either is necessarily bad. Our goal should be a pinball machine in every home.

#259 5 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

For everyone who keeps saying Rick is doing the pinball community such a big favor by making this game, let this be your wake-up call. MMR is making Rick (and others) lots of money.

MM was making hoarders/restorers/flippers a lot of money. Rick did do the community a favor by allowing us to get a brand new MM for less than $10k. It is what it is.

Quoted from metallik:

WE (or I should say, some of YOU) are doing HIM a favor by buying this remade, profit-filled game

Every pinball machine is made in hopes of making profit. That is business and not unique to Rick. There's no non-profit pinball company as far as I know….at least not by design.

Quoted from metallik:

instead of a new IMVE or Hobbit or Full Throttle or TWD or a Multimorphic or TBL or any of the other games that are or soon will be available.

Once again, for some reason the burden of other game sales are all on MMr. Yet in the same sentence you bring up IMve - is IMve getting blamed for taking sales away from other games? Of course not. MMr's existence has no bearing on other game sales. If MMr didn't exist, someone might buy a $20k MM and then not buy something else. If someone wants MM, they'll get MM. If they want something else, they'll buy something else. The way we are in this hobby, we're likely to buy a few.

#260 5 years ago

Just ordered 2 coin mechs from pinball life.

I'm ready for my MMr now........LOL

#261 5 years ago
Quoted from blue95:

They don't need coin mechs to test them, just activate the switch that the coin normally activates.

Activating the switch doesn't prove the coin door isnt bent - nor some mechanical issue that prevents the coin op portion to work. A finger != a coin.

-3
#262 5 years ago

I am still offering the OP an icecream cone (with chocolate ice cream) if it will make him happy

12
#263 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Do you know what a coin mech is? THIS IS A COIN MECH:

This is a coin mech on drugs.

CMOD.jpg

#264 5 years ago
Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

Dude! Even if you flip burgers for a living, the amount of time you've spent chastising from your high horse about the coin mechs (or not about the coin mechs?) could have bought you several new coin mechs!

I was in tech for my career and pretty much been retired since I was 49, so, while I appreciate your concern about my time and the well being of my horse, unless I need a few hundred thousand coin mechs I'll be just fine.

#265 5 years ago
Quoted from PopBumperPete:

I am still offering the OP an icecream cone (with chocolate ice cream) if it will make him happy

I'm a vanilla guy, but thanks for the offer.

-17
#266 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

I'm a vanilla guy, but thanks for the offer.

You know most pinsiders are laughing AT you, don't you?

#267 5 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Ok! Time to change the Thread Title to" It's ONLY about the missing coin mechs....

I fixed the thread title for you.

18
#268 5 years ago
Quoted from PopBumperPete:

You know most pinsiders are laughing AT you, don't you?

They can laugh at anything they want. Anyone that believes PPS handled this issue well (either communication or the mechs themselves) is perfectly free to drain this thread.

There are people (like me) who believe PPS handled this poorly and would like to avoid seeing anything similar from happening in the future.

There are others that are genuinely upset that coin mechs aren't coming on a premium priced game.

Those are the folks I hope to see in this thread. If it provides amusement to others, that's fine by me.

#269 5 years ago

I think the OP is certainly in his right to bitch about the issue. Similar thing happened with the TronLE single slot door. You don't see Stern LEs ship without full doors any more because of it. I would be interested to know where one goes to get the mech discount. Most people that want them will want them before the game arrives.

Edited to please the most annoying grammar cop on pinside.

#270 5 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

I think the OP is certainly in his right to bitch about the issue. Similar thing happened with the TronLE single slot door. Don't see Stern LEs ship without full doors any more in lieu of it. I would be interested to know where one goes to get the mech discount. Most people that want them will want them before the game arrives.

I don't think "in lieu of" means what you think it means....

-4
#271 5 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

I think the OP is certainly in his right to bitch about the issue. Similar thing happened with the TronLE single slot door. Don't see Stern LEs ship without full doors any more in lieu of it. I would be interested to know where one goes to get the mech discount. Most people that want them will want them before the game arrives.

Yes, the OP has a right to feel cheated
But after 3 days crying, either cancel your MM order or buy a coin mech

#272 5 years ago
Quoted from PopBumperPete:

You know most pinsiders are laughing AT you, don't you?

I'm not laughing at the OP. Exactly the opposite. I actually respect anyone for standing up for what they believe is right.

Personally, I wouldn't waste my time on this but I understand why someone would.

#273 5 years ago

Just curious but for those few of you who actually route games, what % of the money comes in via the BDA as opposed to the coin slots?

#274 5 years ago
Quoted from calvin12:

Just curious but for those few of you who actually route games, what % of the money comes in via the BDA as opposed to the coin slots?

70% quarters 30% bills IME

#275 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

70% quarters 30% bills IME

Wow, I find that split to be surprising. What places do you have machines, bars (adult clients) or bowling alley/arcade (family clientele)? I know from most people when asked about DBV have said they make considerably more money with a DBV installed than without, so I assumed split would lean at least 50% paper since games are at least 50 cents and usually have deals for even dollars over the coin price.

#276 5 years ago
Quoted from taylor34:

It's a little hard to complain about the manufacturer being 'cheap' when they're including a $200 shaker motor that the original didn't have plus offering custom trim. Those aren't things that happen when you're trying to 'cheap' out. At least in my opinion.

The original didn't cost $8k either so the comparison in terms of the coin mechs not being there is meaningless

#277 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

The original didn't cost $8k either so the comparison in terms of the coin mechs not being there is meaningless

In 2013 the original in "brand new" condition (restored) cost $12-20k. Coin mechs schmoin schmecks.

#278 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

In 2013 the original in "brand new" condition (restored) cost $12-20k. Coin mechs schmoin schmecks.

Did they have coin mechs?

#279 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Did they have coin mechs?

Maybe, maybe not. They're not on route so who cares.

#280 5 years ago
Quoted from PopBumperPete:

Yes, the OP has a right to feel cheated
But after 3 days crying, either cancel your MM order or buy a coin mech

you are not keeping up.

our deposits were frozen. If we cancel our orders with JJP, we lose our deposit.

what item is the last item we won't stand for? What is next?

1,000 coin mechs, at $20 bucks each, is $20K revenue.

Here is another solution. Lower the price by the price of the mechs, plus worldwide shipping.
Wait, that would cost PPS/Chicago-coin money. Where is the money going they are not spending?

#281 5 years ago
Quoted from scott_freeman:

Where is the money going they are not spending?

Easy. Rick's bank account.

#282 5 years ago
Quoted from scott_freeman:

you are not keeping up.
our deposits were frozen. If we cancel our orders with JJP, we lose our deposit.
what item is the last item we won't stand for? What is next?
1,000 coin mechs, at $20 bucks each, is $20K revenue.
Here is another solution. Lower the price by the price of the mechs, plus worldwide shipping.
Wait, that would cost PPS/Chicago-coin money. Where is the money going they are not spending?

Did you contact Jack?

Seriously, if anyone is THAT pissed off about this….demand a refund and say you paid for a game with coin mechs & it's not cool that this was announced so late in the process. I bet if you called Jack and complained about this he would in fact refund your money including the deposit or send you some coin mechs to make you happy.

Has anyone called and complained yet? Please share your stories. If your'e just complaining about it in internet land, it's likely that nothing will be done to satisfy you.

-1
#283 5 years ago
Quoted from calvin12:

Wow, I find that split to be surprising. What places do you have machines, bars (adult clients) or bowling alley/arcade (family clientele)? I know from most people when asked about DBV have said they make considerably more money with a DBV installed than without, so I assumed split would lean at least 50% paper since games are at least 50 cents and usually have deals for even dollars over the coin price.

bar with mixed client age (bars in WI allow kids when "supervised") but most are pinheads with the occasional family.

There is a change machine on site. 2 of the 4 games there have BDVs, 2 do not.

I think many people just enjoy using coins? I know I do for some reason...

#284 5 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

For everyone who keeps saying Rick is doing the pinball community such a big favor by making this game, let this be your wake-up call. MMR is making Rick (and others) lots of money.

Newsflash: All businesses are out to make money. That's how it works. If you don't make a profit, you will be out of business. MMR isn't a bag of rice we are sending out to starving kids in other countries.

#285 5 years ago
Quoted from PopBumperPete:

Yes, the OP has a right to feel cheated
But after 3 days crying, either cancel your MM order or buy a coin mech

You need to read my original post again. I never said I felt cheated and I have plenty of coin mechs.

#286 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Maybe, maybe not. They're not on route so who cares.

Then why make the comparison to begin with?

Also it's disingenuous to say that those restored $20k MM's may not have had coin mechs.

#287 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Did you contact Jack?
Seriously, if anyone is THAT pissed off about this….demand a refund and say you paid for a game with coin mechs & it's not cool that this was announced so late in the process.

1) you're missing the point - no one should have to be a squeaky wheel because PPS screwed up.

2) I don't think it was ever stated that MMR would come with coin mechs, so technically no one ordered a game that came with them. Everyone just assumed that since MMR was billed as a functional equivalent of MM, that the remake would come with the functionality to accept coins. AFAIK, all the other MMR changes (trim choices, LEDs, plywood bottom) are cosmetic, not functional.

#288 5 years ago
Quoted from scott_freeman:

you are not keeping up.
our deposits were frozen. If we cancel our orders with JJP, we lose our deposit.
what item is the last item we won't stand for? What is next?
1,000 coin mechs, at $20 bucks each, is $20K revenue.
Here is another solution. Lower the price by the price of the mechs, plus worldwide shipping.
Wait, that would cost PPS/Chicago-coin money. Where is the money going they are not spending?

Actually....closer to $30.

Also.... x2 per machine.

That's $90,000.00

You guys just tipped PPS a nice sports car.

#289 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

1) you're missing the point - no one should have to be a squeaky wheel because PPS screwed up.

Look, it is what it is - game isn't shipping with coin mechs. They figured no one would care since most buyers are putting it in their house. If you've purchased the game and are truly upset by it… call the person you bought it from. I'd be highly surprised if they didn't offer you a full refund or complimentary mechs if you chose to stick with the purchase.

I'm waiting to hear someone say "I called Jack/Rick and expressed my feelings on this issue & they told me "sorry, no deposit refund & please give me your credit card number to purchase some mechs".

Quoted from jfh:

2) I don't think it was ever stated that MMR would come with coin mechs, so technically no one ordered a game that came with them. Everyone just assumed that since MMR was billed as a functional equivalent of MM, that the remake would come with the functionality to accept coins. AFAIK, all the other MMR changes (trim choices, LEDs, plywood bottom) are cosmetic, not functional.

It still has the functionality to accept coins. It's statements like this that are confusing people into thinking it's some kind of home-only game without coin slots.

#290 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

It still has the functionality to accept coins. It's statements like this that are confusing people into thinking it's some kind of home-only game without coin slots.

Anybody spending $8k on a game knows the difference between the ability to drop a coin through a slot and doing nothing as opposed to registering a credit.

The idea that people don't know what a coin mech is is a bit of a stretch for me.

#291 5 years ago
Quoted from Firebaall:

Actually....closer to $30.
Also.... x2 per machine.
That's $90,000.00
You guys just tipped PPS a nice sports car.

No, we just got taken for a ride ...

#292 5 years ago
Quoted from taylor34:

It's a little hard to complain about the manufacturer being 'cheap' when they're including a $200 shaker motor that the original didn't have plus offering custom trim. Those aren't things that happen when you're trying to 'cheap' out. At least in my opinion.

Not sure if you are aware but the original machines also did not cost $8,000

#293 5 years ago

Actually - I have a friend who bought an MMr... and requested a refund BEFORE the freeze.
Apparently some Disti's are requiring that your "build slot" be filled by another BEFORE they refund your cash.
Maybe Jack is better - but I'm guessing not.

-1
#294 5 years ago
Quoted from loren3233:

Not sure if you are aware but the original machines also did not cost $8,000

Again - a year ago they cost 12k-20k. What the original cost in the 90's is irrelevant.

Quoted from jfh:

Anybody spending $8k on a game knows the difference between the ability to drop a coin through a slot and doing nothing as opposed to registering a credit.
The idea that people don't know what a coin mech is is a bit of a stretch for me.

There are a lot of people collecting games that don't know the ins and outs and all the terms. So, when you say something like it doesn't have the functionality to accept coins - people are taking that literally. It's been demonstrated that people reading these threads are already confused about it and think that MMr became a home-only game without coin slots.

Quoted from Firebaall:

Actually....closer to $30.

Also.... x2 per machine.

That's $90,000.00

You guys just tipped PPS a nice sports car.

Aye, you guys obsessing over Rick's bank account. It's reached the point of tackiness. When people were pissed about Tron LE's single coin slot, I don't remember anyone talking about what Gary was going to do with his newfound fortune.

Why do I keep replying to these threads….while I personally don't care about the mechs, this is Rick's mess….I'll let him deal with it….but seriously, if you guys are going to endlessly cry about this - PLEASE - call whoever you bought it from and demand a refund. Just get out and be done with it. You just won't be happy with this game.

#295 5 years ago
Quoted from loren3233:

Not sure if you are aware but the original machines also did not cost $8,000

It's also not 1997. Sheesh, lol. Gas isn't a dollar anymore either. I didn't make any reference to any price in my original post, all I said was that by adding the shaker motor it didn't appear he was trying to completely cut all corners to save money...what sense would that make? "Yes, in order to make a lot more money we're going to add a $200 shaker motor and cut $20 worth of coin mechs". Why are people trying to read more into my post than that? If I'm trying to cut corners I put pegs instead of slide rails like stern did on IM. That's all I said.

11
#296 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Why do I keep replying to these threads….while I personally don't care about the mechs, this is Rick's mess….I'll let him deal with it….but seriously, if you guys are going to endlessly cry about this - PLEASE - call whoever you bought it from and demand a refund. Just get out and be done with it. You just won't be happy with this game.

You keep saying this, but it is missing the point.

Why is it wrong to voice concerns over the missing coin mechs, whether it means you actually want a refund or not or even if you haven't even purchased the pin? It's like the WoZ threads where owners say you can't have an opinion on WoZ or JJP if you haven't bought the pin.

The fact is, this is an issue to many people, even if it isn't an issue to you. And even if you don't care because you never plan on putting a coin through the slot anyway, there are still reasons to have at least some concern.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to sell an $8k coin operated pinball machine without the ability to accept coins out of the box. Is this indicative of "cheapening out"? Why did it take them so long to figure out that the coin mechs weren't going to be included? Too difficult to implement? Why tell buyers about this after the refund period had expired?

If coin mechs aren't included, why include a coin box? Seems pretty easy to justify not including a coin box if you aren't going to include coin mechs. Etc.

Again, these are just concerns. Whether they rise to the level of "I want my money back" is doubtful for most, I would think. But that doesn't mean that questions and concerns about this issue shouldn't be discussed.

Edit: I missed Borygard's post quoted by Pintucky below. He said it more succinctly.

10
#297 5 years ago
Quoted from Borygard:

This is the first I'm hearing about no coin mechs in MMr.

My first thought is if it's "too hard" to put a coin much in a coin operated machine, what else is "too hard" to do to get this game out the door? Cost cutting, cost savings, bad planning, whatever.

I bought a coin operated pinball machine, if it can't accept coins from the factory, I *will* be getting a refund. I don't want a game that was pushed out the door with stuff not included because it was "too hard".

Man, I'm glad you weighed in on this, Rob. When an expert like you believes the coin mechs should have come with the pin, then that validates MY arguments I've been making. Don't know if I told you, but I bought one of these. I have been pissed over the 'principle' of the matter of leaving them out and we have to buy our own. I paid 8 thousand big bucks for a coin operated machine, and Rick and his blind 'followers' have done a lot of taunting over how cheesy we are who want them to come in the game. Like WE are the idiots asking for too much! I've heard the $20 spiel of how "cheap and easy it is to buy one yourself if you want it so bad", until I'm sick of it. When you pay big money for a pin like that, you shouldn't have to shell out more money just to have it operate like a genuine coin operated machine!

I'm THRILLED to see you 'on my side' in this . . . or, at least having the same viewpoint.

I've got to go now. I'm trying to wire up a 24" diameter hot air balloon to my WOZ pin that will rise to the top of my 25 foot ceiling when the ball kills out all the lights on the balloon on the PF. I decided to hook this up to my abandoned 2nd knocker still inside the cabinet and powering it through the primary knocker, plus wired to the 'Start' Button to make the big Hot Air balloon launch. I drilled a hole in the left side of my cabinet and hooked a coat hanger to the knocker lugs hoping this will power the big balloon to rise to the ceiling traveling a catgut string that is invisible. I'll let you know if I blow any fuses or transistors. But I think this will work!!!
Mike
Mike

#298 5 years ago
Quoted from Firebaall:

I wonder how long before mechs are optional on new Stern games. With this kind of money being left uncontested by the customers, you know they've noticed.

That's been my fear. When Stern and PPS see that we, the buyers, will just roll over and not contest this, then they will take this liberty and soon there will be more trimming off here and there. That's what I wish the 'opposition' on this thread would take into consideration.

#299 5 years ago
Quoted from PopBumperPete:

You know most pinsiders are laughing AT you, don't you?

Those laughing are known as lemmings.

#300 5 years ago
Quoted from taylor34:

It's a little hard to complain about the manufacturer being 'cheap' when they're including a $200 shaker motor that the original didn't have plus offering custom trim. Those aren't things that happen when you're trying to 'cheap' out. At least in my opinion.

Have to disagree. Not when you are shelling out $8,000 for an LE pin that is SUPPOSED to have all these add-ons. You are letting him off too easy. While he might be doing all us MM lovers a 'favor' by reproducing them, he is in this to make a profit, and there appears there's plenty of room to add in a standard coin mech.

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