(Topic ID: 98940)

PPS / MMR communication - it's NOT about the coin mechs (or is it?)


By jfh

5 years ago



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There are 700 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 14.
-5
#201 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

One of the things about how this was handled is that no one should have been surprised. It's one thing to surprise customers by including something extra, but to surprise them by taking something away at the 11th hour is totally different.
Somebody messed up and no one took responsibility. It's not like installing coin mechs in coin operated devices is a new concept - whatever you think of the decision, it's not one that should have been made at the last moment.
PPS/CGC could have made this a non-issue with a better initial response or by taking the suggestion of whoever suggested sending mechs/coupons to those that were upset. As far as I can tell, no one who suggested that option got the courtesy of a response. Somebody made a business decision not to do either, which only compounded the issue (e.g. All of the speculation that it was a cost-cutting move or something worse).

its already a non-issue, stop getting your panties in a bunch.

#202 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

sending mechs/coupons to those that were upset

IF . . . according to the naysayers . . . there are only 4 or 5 people on the forum who wanted the coin mechs, then this would have been a very plausible solution. If that was the case, Rick could have easily PM'd us to send him our mailing addresses and he would send out complimentary coin mechs. After all, that cost would be a mere drop in the bucket compared to putting them in every pin. Would have been a perfect PR solution and restored confidence.

Of course, there are a LOT more people disappointed by this than has been publicly revealed, so methinks Rick didn't actually believe what the bashers were saying about how only a handful of people were complaining about this, and didn't want to send out maybe hundreds of mechs!

-4
#203 5 years ago
Quoted from Pintucky:

IF . . . according to the naysayers . . . there are only 4 or 5 people on the forum who wanted the coin mechs, then this would have been a very plausible solution. If that was the case, Rick could have easily PM'd us to send him our mailing addresses and he would send out complimentary coin mechs. After all, that cost would be a mere drop in the bucket compared to putting them in every pin. Would have been a perfect PR solution and restored confidence.
Of course, there are a LOT more people disappointed by this than has been publicly revealed, so methinks Rick didn't actually believe what the bashers were saying about how only a handful of people were complaining about this, and didn't want to send out maybe hundreds of mechs!

If he gives them to one he would have to give to all...the case is closed on this one. He has stated the reason and his solution (deeply discounted mechs). Let it go.

#204 5 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

If he gives them to one he would have to give to all...the case is closed on this one. He has stated the reason and his solution (deeply discounted mechs). Let it go.

He should give them to all since that is what they paid for.
Deeply discounted mechs, LOL!
I will sell you something you already paid for again at a discount.
If you paid with a CC you could easily get the charges reversed, you can't take something out of a product and then tell the customer sorry you are locked in.
Sell someone a house then take out the lighting fixtures while it is in escrow and see if the buyer is "locked in".

11
#205 5 years ago

If nobody wanted the mechs according to rick, just include a coupon for them and see how many actually didn't want them.

#206 5 years ago
Quoted from tracelifter:

He should give them to all since that is what they paid for.
Deeply discounted mechs, LOL!
I will sell you something you already paid for again at a discount.
If you paid with a CC you could easily get the charges reversed, you can't take something out of a product and then tell the customer sorry you are locked in.
Sell someone a house then take out the lighting fixtures while it is in escrow and see if the buyer is "locked in".

Reminds me of the first episode of Green Acres when Mr. Haney stripped the farm house of its furniture after selling it to Mr. Douglas...then selling it back to him

-1
#207 5 years ago
Quoted from tracelifter:

He should give them to all since that is what they paid for.
Deeply discounted mechs, LOL!
I will sell you something you already paid for again at a discount.
If you paid with a CC you could easily get the charges reversed, you can't take something out of a product and then tell the customer sorry you are locked in.
Sell someone a house then take out the lighting fixtures while it is in escrow and see if the buyer is "locked in".

You seem pretty invested in this issue. I assume you are planning on routing your MMRLE.

#208 5 years ago
Quoted from Pintucky:

IF . . . according to the naysayers . . . there are only 4 or 5 people on the forum who wanted the coin mechs, then this would have been a very plausible solution. If that was the case, Rick could have easily PM'd us to send him our mailing addresses and he would send out complimentary coin mechs. After all, that cost would be a mere drop in the bucket compared to putting them in every pin. Would have been a perfect PR solution and restored confidence.

Rick never provided the estimates but indicated the numbers were low, but low probably means <10% or so. Still, it still begs the question of why such an obvious solution wasn't offered if the estimates are/were low. I think you are correct that it would have been the perfect solution from a PR perspective (though more hassle for whoever would have handled fulfillment).

If the numbers really are low, why not do it? If they aren't, why say they are? (Rhetorical questions, since it's unlikely we will ever know)

#209 5 years ago

...Are we STILL not talking about the coin mechs?

#210 5 years ago
Quoted from tracelifter:

If you paid with a CC you could easily get the charges reversed, you can't take something out of a product and then tell the customer sorry you are locked in.

Don't know about the other distributors, but PPS doesn't take credit cards for MMR orders.

#211 5 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

...Are we STILL not talking about the coin mechs?

I think we're now talking about what Mr. Haney is doing with them ...

(Can't you just imagine how Haney would spin this?)

#212 5 years ago

Rick has stated in the past that future PPS titles to be released will be offered to the MMRLE buyers first. Keep your coin mech coupons, I'll take my money/discount off the next title!

#213 5 years ago

The game needs to come with coin mechs. Arcade games that don't have coin mechs are not arcade games. Pins and video games without coin mech are worth significantly less in almost every single instance than their coin operated counterparts. Part of why people like these things is because they are commercial arcade games. I won't buy a pin without working coin mechs because that is part of the experience. Deposits were taken for a fully working commercial pin. To ship without would be fraud.

-1
#214 5 years ago
Quoted from hollywood:

Rick has stated in the past that future PPS titles to be released will be offered to the MMRLE buyers first. Keep your coin mech coupons, I'll take my money/discount off the next title!

Who said anything about a discount? Plonk!

#215 5 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

the case is closed on this one. He has stated the reason and his solution (deeply discounted mechs).

I wonder if it will be these.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/will-this-coin-mech-work-on-wpc-games

#216 5 years ago

Why is it so hard to put a working coin mech in it?

#217 5 years ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

The game needs to come with coin mechs. Arcade games that don't have coin mechs are not arcade games. Pins and video games without coin mech are worth less in every single instance than their coin operated counterparts. Part of why people like these things is because the are commercial arcade games. I won't buy a pin without working coin mechs because that is part of the experience. Deposits were taken for a fully working commercial pin. To ship without would be fraud.

I've bought plenty of pins over the years that were missing mechs...never effected me one bit, nor the resale of them. I do know some people who use quarters in their home arcade though. Eh, what are you gonna do? It's not Armageddon here people.

#218 5 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

I wonder if it will be these.

Good catch, o-din!

I would say you just showed us where the initial idea to NOT put coin mechs in the pins came about! So . . . he was looking for a coin mech source and then decided just a week or so later that these pins didn't need them. Something is rotten in Denmark!!!

#219 5 years ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

Pins and video games without coin mech are worth significantly less in almost every single instance than their coin operated counterparts.

Do you even understand what is not being included?

#220 5 years ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

Why is it so hard to put a working coin mech in it?

Just play this video in reverse for tutorial...

#221 5 years ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

The game needs to come with coin mechs. Arcade games that don't have coin mechs are not arcade games. Pins and video games without coin mech are worth significantly less in almost every single instance than their coin operated counterparts.

Do you know what a coin mech is? It's not missing a coin SLOT or a coin DOOR! If you want to route the game, you pop the mech in. The game is still a coin operated machine and still an arcade game.

One more time kiddies....THIS IS A COIN MECH:

42-3079-100.JPG
#222 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Do you know what a coin mech is? It's not missing a coin SLOT or a coin DOOR! If you want to route the game, you pop the mech in. The game is still a coin operated machine and still an arcade game.
One more time kiddies....THIS IS A COIN MECH:

42-3079-100.JPG 66 KB

Then why don't they include it? Is the software compatible? Is the plug out connector compatible? If it was just your pictured coin mech not included then why when you pay 8 grand for a game a $20 part is not included? Bottom line is why doesn't this overpriced remake have a working coin door?

#223 5 years ago

Interesting that Rick's question starts of with "nothing related to MMR", especially at that point in time, because there would be no reason for anyone to believe the mechs hadn't been spec'ed before then.

Makes me wonder if the reason there are no coin mechs shipping with MMR is more "no one spec'ed them in the BOM until the last minute" - e.g. planning error - and that the "it's too hard" was more "it's more trouble than it's worth to fix it this late in the process" than "it's too hard to get the right mech in the right game". But then again, that begs the question of why not just say that in the first place? Surely the reaction wouldn't have been any worse.

Of course, it could just all be a fascinating coincidence.

#224 5 years ago

Lmao at the BOM. If they sell this pin for 5k they still earn money.

#225 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

Interesting that Rick's question starts of with "nothing related to MMR", especially at that point in time, because there would be no reason for anyone to believe the mechs hadn't been spec'ed before then.
Makes me wonder if the reason there are no coin mechs shipping with MMR is more "no one spec'ed them in the BOM until the last minute" - e.g. planning error - and that the "it's too hard" was more "it's more trouble than it's worth to fix it this late in the process" than "it's too hard to get the right mech in the right game". But then again, that begs the question of why not just say that in the first place? Surely the reaction wouldn't have been any worse.
Of course, it could just all be a fascinating coincidence.

I've been an advocate of yours since day 1; perhaps not as vocal mind you, but playing Devil's advocate to your above post: Wouldn't it now be EASIER to include the coin mechs? I assume all MMRLE's have been paid in full now? They, PPS, now know the address of where every game is to be shipped (USA, CAN, AUS etc), would it not be easy to now order the appropriate mechs and install them? Just curious!

#226 5 years ago
Quoted from Zitt:

My issue isn't about the lack of shipped coin mechs. This was my post which got moderated out in the other thread:
Do I have extra coin mechs; nope. I had to order 1 to complete my Star Trek: Mirror Universe build. The bigger concern I have is... Given he's not SHIPPING with coin mechs... how is the MFG line VERIFYING the coin circuits work?!
Are they going to put "test mechs" in the machine and run quarters thru enough times to verify the circuits and the coindoor work as expected? Would seem paying labor to install mechs... then turn around and uninstall them would be more expensive than including them. Doesn't make a lot of business sense to me. What happens when test coin mechs "Escape" to the buyer?
Or is Rick just "letting that one slide"? IE screw the coin-op portion of the game. If there are issues; it's the buyer's problem?
Either way; he better be testing the co-op functionality as part of is OQA process on significant sample of the production machines... doing otherwise is a dumb move.
I don't have a dog in THIS race... however, if he remakes AFM - I'll be looking long and hard at how he handled this first game to determine if he deserves my next NIB cash.

They don't need coin mechs to test them, just activate the switch that the coin normally activates.

#227 5 years ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

Pins and video games without coin mech are worth significantly less in almost every single instance than their coin operated counterparts.

i'm not sure you understand the discussion. a coin mech is a $20 part that can be installed easily. it is not visible to the end user.

(edit: others already pointed this out, sorry)

#228 5 years ago
Quoted from calvin12:

its already a non-issue, stop getting your panties in a bunch.

It's not a non-issue if you're looking to operate one of the best earning titles of all time.

#229 5 years ago
Quoted from Ed209:

Just play this video in reverse for tutorial...

Thanks for posting this. I knew what consists of a coin mech, just had never taken one out before or adjusted one.
Mike

#230 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

Makes me wonder if the reason there are no coin mechs shipping with MMR is more "no one spec'ed them in the BOM until the last minute"

I think you got it right there. I can not imagine creating such a special project and purposefully leaving this out.

#231 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

Interesting that Rick's question starts of with "nothing related to MMR",

I found it amusing that he didn't seem to know what a coin mech was.

#232 5 years ago

not to beat a dead horse (and not that I have a horse in this race), but I'm not buying the answer that it would be too difficult (logistically) to put in the coin mechs due to different currency types.

the coin size validation type mechs simply use a screwdriver to adjust the mech to accept the proper size coin. (phillips screw in the middle of the mech image that Rarehero provided above).

a simple one-sheet on how to adjust the mech would be sufficient for those wishing to use them. or rick could include a $10 roll of quarters with the machines to international buyers

#233 5 years ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

Then why don't they include it? Is the software compatible? Is the plug out connector compatible? If it was just your pictured coin mech not included then why when you pay 8 grand for a game a $20 part is not included? Bottom line is why doesn't this overpriced remake have a working coin door?

You nailed it! PPS would have to custom-configure the software on each game, depending on which country the game was going to and what type of coin mech was installed. And make sure the voltage is compatible too! Plus, there are those darn metric coin mech connectors for European use that can screw up the wiring compatibility. Heck, I bet the coin door doesn't work without the coin mechs; it'll probably be welded shut from the factory!

#234 5 years ago
Quoted from StevenP:

PPS would have to custom-configure the software on each game, depending on which country the game was going to and what type of coin mech was installed. And make sure the voltage is compatible too! Plus, there are those darn metric coin mech connectors for European use that can screw up the wiring compatibility.

As Stern is doing for every Stern Pro leaving its factory... at roughly half the price!

-1
#235 5 years ago

^ *sigh*

#236 5 years ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

Then why don't they include it? Is the software compatible? Is the plug out connector compatible? If it was just your pictured coin mech not included then why when you pay 8 grand for a game a $20 part is not included? Bottom line is why doesn't this overpriced remake have a working coin door?

You're deflecting. You're super mad about this and you don't even know what a coin mech is or how it functions. It's just the thingie that the coin falls through. You literally pop it in. There are no connectors. It has nothing to do with the plug out connector or software. It's a standard part of a standard Happ coin door. Yes, I understand this is a thread about being pissed about it missing....but for fuck sake, at least understand what you're mad about.

#237 5 years ago
Quoted from RazerX:

It's not a non-issue if you're looking to operate one of the best earning titles of all time.

true, but that's very few people and if you have just a few on location moving the mechs when you rotate a game into location really shouldn't be an issue. You also haven't been repeatedly bitching about it and claiming PPS is lying like some people have been, which is who the comment was aimed at. The original MM came with DBA wiring but no DBA's installed, was that ever a problem? People add those and they cost over $100 to buy used. If they were pulling the whole wiring harness and mounting points it would be a completely different story. Most all of my pins, used of course, had the mechs pulled out and I had o replace them and I don't route my stuff. I just prefer them to bet there. If I was buying MMr I'd get the mechs to have them. If they do a game in the future that I want I'll buy mechs for that one too. If they move to a bally home model plan, where its not capable of using coins, I'd have no interest in the game at all, even if everything else is absolutely identical to the original.

#238 5 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

Call Rick and ask ?
He's posted his phone number and said many times to call.
If I had any questions, I'd email or call him.
LTG : )™

I would, but then only I would know the answers to all these questions. Since I don't think any of the answers should be privileged information I would then be tempted to type in what I have learned so everyone here could know as well. Rick has made it clear in PM he doesn't appreciate me speaking about anything related to his company or product, and I can't say I blame him as I am not a paid spokesperson for PPS or CG. If only someone around here were they could find out these answers and post the results here...

See you at Expo sir. I'm assuming you are still doing LTG Show again this year?

23
#239 5 years ago

This is the first I'm hearing about no coin mechs in MMr.

My first thought is if it's "too hard" to put a coin much in a coin operated machine, what else is "too hard" to do to get this game out the door? Cost cutting, cost savings, bad planning, whatever.

I bought a coin operated pinball machine, if it can't accept coins from the factory, I *will* be getting a refund. I don't want a game that was pushed out the door with stuff not included because it was "too hard".

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

13
#240 5 years ago

It seems the major "counter" argument to this issue is that it's a cheap $20.00 part.

With an $8000 game there has to be enough profit left on the table to pay for your mistakes. Send out the customer a coin mech on YOUR dime. it's not their fault you didn't get your shit lined up before production. Offering to sell them the part (discounted or not), is kinda scummy. The black eye isn't worth it.

Think about it this way:

If people here bought a machine from a flipper, gave him the money, then was told the seller was keeping the coin mechs AND kept your money no matter what.......

.....we would see a rage storm of threads about being "Choggarded".

Think about this while you're at it:

Those HAPP coin mechs linked above are much closer to $30 after shipping and sales tax (then they are to $20). 1500 omitted parts is $90K. Not to mention the money saved in not configuring them for each country during installation. What's the real amount that you're saving the manufacturer?

.....hey, I'm sure he's ok with you giving him a bonus after paying a premium for the game. I wonder how long before mechs are optional on new Stern games. With this kind of money being left uncontested by the customers, you know they've noticed.

#241 5 years ago
Quoted from hollywood:

I've been an advocate of yours since day 1; perhaps not as vocal mind you, but playing Devil's advocate to your above post: Wouldn't it now be EASIER to include the coin mechs? I assume all MMRLE's have been paid in full now? They, PPS, now know the address of where every game is to be shipped (USA, CAN, AUS etc), would it not be easy to now order the appropriate mechs and install them? Just curious!

Not all the games have been paid for in full. Don't know about the other distributors, but final payments on games purchased from PPS aren't due yet.

It certainly takes more coordination to match the proper country mechs to the right game on the line, but does PPS have the shipping addresses of customers that ordered through other distributors? If not, that could be part of the issue. But you would suspect they do, since they are tracking original owner for the warranty.

You actually bring up another solution - if they have the addresses and if it was too hard to match them on the line, just ship the mechs separately using the owners address to determine mech type. That would have been simple (Of course, that would have probably been the most expensive solution of any that has been proposed, assuming that the customer wasn't asked to pay for shipping the mechs)

But I'll go back to this - if PPS estimates show that relatively few would be impacted by not shipping mechs in the game and you assume the majority of games are being shipped in the US, why not just ship them separately to those who ask?

I don't think we are ever going to know the real story and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter. If PPS learns from this and admits (at least internally) that the way this was handled was a PR nightmare and fixes it so something similar doesn't happen down the line, then that's good. But until then, I'm going to be disappointed that folks at PPS and/or CGC think that their customers or potential customers can't handle or shouldn't know the truth.

(I keep seeing people post "Why not just call or write Rick?" - what makes you think that a private answer is going to be different than a public one? Or that you will even get an answer? Rick has been very generous in encouraging anyone with a concern to call or write. But that's a two-edged sword that can just as easily be used to shut an uncomfortable topic down as it can be to provide transparency)

#242 5 years ago

Shipping them seperately is kind of what I've suggested twice now. No fuss solution, as soon as they have the buyer's address just ship it off. Boom, game AND mechs are at your doorstep. Absolutely no hiccups, hassles, or delays in production. The fact that he is saying "Nope what's done is done" and refusing to ship 30 pairs of mechs is just ludicrous to me. And didn't he say we would have 100 machines by now? Where are they?

#243 5 years ago
Quoted from Firebaall:

It seems the major "counter" argument to this issue is that it's a cheap $20.00 part.
With an $8000 game there has to be enough profit left on the table to pay for your mistakes. Send out the customer a coin mech on YOUR dime. it's not their fault you didn't get your shit lined up before production. Offering to sell them the part (discounted or not), is kinda scummy. The black eye isn't worth it.
Think about it this way:
If people here bought a machine from a flipper, gave him the money, then was told the seller was keeping the coin mechs AND kept your money no matter what.......
.....we would see a rage storm of threads about being "Choggarded".
Think about this while you're at it:
Those HAPP coin mechs linked above are much closer to $30 after shipping and sales tax (then they are to $20). 1500 omitted parts is $45K. Not to mention the money saved in not configuring them for each country during installation. What's the real amount that you're saving the manufacturer?
.....hey, I'm sure he's ok with you giving him a bonus after paying a premium for the game. I wonder how long before mechs are optional on new Stern games. With this kind of money being left uncontested by the customers, you know they've noticed.

It's a little hard to complain about the manufacturer being 'cheap' when they're including a $200 shaker motor that the original didn't have plus offering custom trim. Those aren't things that happen when you're trying to 'cheap' out. At least in my opinion.

#244 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

(I keep seeing people post "Why not just call or write Rick?" - what makes you think that a private answer is going to be different than a public one? Or that you will even get an answer? Rick has been very generous in encouraging anyone with a concern to call or write. But that's a two-edged sword that can just as easily be used to shut an uncomfortable topic down as it can be to provide transparency)

The answer is simple - due to prior error/misplanning, at this point it would cost Rick money to do anything other than simply omit the mechs. Rick doesn't want to spend the money to fix this properly, so no mechs in MMR. He obviously doesn't want to say that straight-out, hence the hedging. He knows most games won't be operated and made a calculated decision that the bad PR over this will blow over is worth the $40K or so he's saving.

For everyone who keeps saying Rick is doing the pinball community such a big favor by making this game, let this be your wake-up call. MMR is making Rick (and others) lots of money. WE (or I should say, some of YOU) are doing HIM a favor by buying this remade, profit-filled game instead of a new IMVE or Hobbit or Full Throttle or TWD or a Multimorphic or TBL or any of the other games that are or soon will be available.

#245 5 years ago
Quoted from taylor34:

It's a little hard to complain about the manufacturer being 'cheap' when they're including a $200 shaker motor that the original didn't have plus offering custom trim. Those aren't things that happen when you're trying to 'cheap' out. At least in my opinion.

The original was around 3600 MSRP. This one is 8000. Yea, I think there's room for a shaker. But not a shaker and mechs

#246 5 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

For everyone who keeps saying Rick is doing the pinball community such a big favor by making this game, let this be your wake-up call. MMR is making Rick (and others) lots of money. WE (or I should say, some of YOU) are doing HIM a favor by buying this remade, profit-filled game instead of a new IMVE or Hobbit or Full Throttle or TWD or a Multimorphic or TBL or any of the other games that are or soon will be available.

Just wanted to point out here that IMVE is *also* a "remade, profit-filled game."

-1
#247 5 years ago

Ok! Time to change the Thread Title to" It's ONLY about the missing coin mechs....

#248 5 years ago
Quoted from StevenP:

Just wanted to point out here that IMVE is *also* a "remade, profit-filled game."

Absolutely. But it only cost a lil over half what the MMR costs, and actually includes coin mechs.

IMVE is what we bought after we canceled our MMR.

#249 5 years ago

With this thread- Pinside may have jumped the shark.....

#250 5 years ago
Quoted from taylor34:

It's a little hard to complain about the manufacturer being 'cheap' when they're including a $200 shaker motor that the original didn't have plus offering custom trim. Those aren't things that happen when you're trying to 'cheap' out. At least in my opinion.

"Including" is perhaps a very loosely used term in this equation. I don't pretend to know the exact expenses associated with building a pinball. What I don't think occurred was the same R&D used to make an original game. Sure there are newer components, but design, art, layout was already worked out.
For 8k (10k Canadian), I have a hard time believing all monies were allocated to the overall game. I think for 8k, the things you think are included are actually boughten and paid for.

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