Medieval Madness
Williams, 1997This topic is closed.
Quoted from jfh:Exactly. So why feed us some BS "answer" rather than just tell us the truth? It certainly can't be proprietary.
I have bought 3 NIB stern machines in the past years (from different distibutors) acdc, tron and metallica. Non of them had a euro coin mech inside. So this is not true.
Quoted from Dirk:I have bought 3 NIB stern machines in the past years (from different distibutors) acdc, tron and Metallica. Non of them had a euro coin mech inside. So this is not true.
Ok. Then why not just do whatever Stern does?
Seriously, take a break man. Obviously the Novus fumes are having an effect on you. Go outside and get some fresh air.
Quoted from Firebaall:I'm curious about this too. Is this a way to skirt UL testing or other commercial regulation? Pretty serious questions pop up when the explanations aren't up to snuff.
If Rick responds to my email, I'll post here, but perhaps this thread had run its' course.
Clearly I did not do a good enough job expressing my frustration that Rick was seemingly playing with us/feigning ignorance when responding to questions or issues he clearly didn't want to address for whatever reason. Given his apparent openness at Expo and through much of the process, I expected more and I know others did as well.
Look back at vid001's list earlier in the thread. Were any of those unreasonable questions? I don't think so. But none every got reasonable answers.
For me, how the whole coin mech issue was handled was just the straw that broke the camel's back. That's all. The idea that I or anyone would cancel an order over missing mechs is just as silly as some of the conspiracy theories. (However, most conspiracy theories start because of lack of information).
I want MMR (and presumably future remakes) to be a success. I think they will be. But I also think those of us willing to spend the kind of money involved deserve a little more latitude from PPS when it comes to information on topics that may not seem relevant or important to them, but are to some of us. I suspect most will apply to MMR and the new platform and will become evident over time. We don't have to like all the answers, but ignoring questions or providing flippant answers or those that strain credulity don't help anything.
I think most people here are intelligent enough to deal with facts and honest open discussions. If anyone has taken my comments as bashing MMR/PPS, I apologize. I can't stand (or understand) all the Stern vs. JJP bashing on Pinside and certainly don't want to add PPS to the mix.
I also know there are a significant number of you that feel the same way I do, but would prefer not to express your opinions publicly. To those that have PMed, sent emails and called, thanks.
OP, I agree with you 100% on this one.
With your collection it is obvious you are a serious pinball enthusiast and wanted to support PPS's introductory remake. With this forum available it is great PPS can offer transparency by having Q & A with it's supporters. If it's not about the coin mech's then it must be this communication transparency and contradictions/changes that bother you. The decision not to include coin mechs could be a red flag to some and might make them wonder what other surprises(negative ones) are in store. The entire process is a rollercoaster and some folks like them and some folks don't. I think you fit in the latter bucket and maybe this ride wasn't for you but you might have no choice but to close your eyes and hang on. As we come back to the coin mech's, yes I think they should of been included but im not manufacturing the pin and im at the mercy of those that are.
Quoted from jfh:Ok. Then why not just do whatever Stern does?
Quoted from smokedog:I guess I will send my distributor an email, and they can ask Rick. I will post the answers here once I receive them.
Well, I'm good!
My distributor is including $1 and $2 coin mechs (same for all of us up north that ordered through them). Yay! Seriously, my distributor rocks .
So, squeaky wheel and all that jazz.
Back to lurking ...
Quoted from Vyzer2:cant wait to get my non coin mech mmr
Me too I have a 5 liter bucket full of coin mech can't wait to snap one in my new MM!
The only thing that seems kind of fishy to me about this is that games will need different power supply configurations for different countries, right? So how is it that they can figure out and track the logistics of that, yet they can't figure out coin mechs? And how does Stern do it today? Couldn't they just, I dunno.. do what they always do?
To be clear I'm not complaining about the decision, but I'm saying that yeah, it doesn't totally make sense to say they couldn't figure out the complexity.
Selling a 'coin operated' game without the ability to accept coins out of the box seems a bit counterintuitive
Ironically when I bought my FGY NIB it from Starburst in Canada. They obviously knew I was from the states..the game had Canadian coin mechs installed. Guess what...they gave me a pair of US coin mechs even though I told them the game was for personal use
Is it possible that no coin mechs were part of the deal for Stern building games? Maybe they think is will help keep some off route and hence not have as negative an impact on future Stern sales???
I know that is silly but businesses sometimes do silly things.
Quoted from Whysnow:Is it possible that no coin mechs were part of the deal for Stern building games? Maybe they think is will help keep some off route and hence not have as negative an impact on future Stern sales???
I know that is silly but businesses sometimes do silly things.
You should take a break from posting. This shit is silly.
Quoted from TaylorVA:You should take a break from posting. This shit is silly.
Lol. Says the guy wearing a wrastlin mask 
There must be a real reason why they are not included. Seems as plausible as any given the circumstances.
I'm always surprised at the fanboy defense on these forums. The fact that the mechs are cheap or few people want them is irrelevant; what is relevant is basic customer service and business practices. Saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it" is a flip way of deflecting a real issue with PPS business approach. Plus with the lockdown of deposits buyers are unable to pull out anyway. Similar to your cable company, just because you might not have any reasonable alternatives doesn't excuse piss poor service.
Quoted from bigduke13:I'm always surprised at the fanboy defense on these forums
So did you order a game?
Quoted from jfh:A mod suggested that a new thread be created to discuss "the MMR coin mech issue", rather than having the discussion continue in the main MMR thread. I wasn't going to do that, but was encouraged to do so after some private discussions.
In thinking about it, I realized that some missed the point that the larger issue isn't about whether or not coin mechs ship with MMR, but rather how PPS handled the issue.
In case anyone doesn't know, here are the facts:
- Shortly after deposits on MMR became non-refundable, Rick announced that MMR would ship without coin mechs.
- This was the first indication that the remake would not ship equipped for a primary function of a commercial pinball machine and one that was obviously present in the original.
- Rick stated the reason for this omission was a logistics issue due to non-domestic orders and implied that it would be difficult for Stern to handle getting the right type of mechs with the right game on the assembly line.
There was a lot of discussion about the missing mechs. Rick stated that that PPS believed that only a small percentage of MMR buyers would be impacted by this decision, since the significant portion of the games produced were going into homes of private collectors who, for the most part, don't use/need coin mechs. I happen to agree with this point, and I know many others do, but using that as a rationalization/justification for not including mechs.
Any good project manager would conclude the same thing I did - that either this was a cost cutting move or the issue of needing different types of mechs by country wasn't appropriately planned for. I think it is the latter, as it doesn't make sense as a cost-cutting move for a number of reasons.
Instead of something like:
"Hey guys, we underestimated what was required to efficiently install the proper coin mechs during the production of MMR, so we believe it's best for the project that machines ship without them. PPS will send a set of coin mechs at no charge to the registered owner of a machine if they would like them. In addition, we would like to offer [something/discount coupon/whatever] to all owners as our thanks for your understanding on what we hope is a minor inconvenience."
What did we get?
- you guys don't understand how hard this is to do
- what's the big deal? Nobody uses mechs anyway
- if you want them, we'll sell them to you cheap (totally ignoring those folks would essentially pay for them twice)
- It wasn't our decision not to include the mechs, it was our contractor's fault.
- feigned ignorance over "missing parts"
- total ignorance of the real issue.
I don't think this is acceptable. I believe, as I know many do, that Rick has done (and plans to do) much for the pinball community and I am quite grateful for his efforts. I was one of the first to place an order for MMR, despite the fact I own a pristine original, as I wanted to show support for MMR and the concept of reproducing classic WMS titles. I want a new AFM, CC, BBB and maybe some others.
There seems to be a disturbing habit when someone questions a PPS decision/move. Many of the replies we get don't acknowledge the issue, but
- repeat the original answer, as if we didn't read or understand it the first time.
- tell us we wouldn't understand the issues involved
- slyly disparage the person asking the question
- totally ignore any constructive criticism or suggestions
- fail to attribute any responsibility to Rick and/or PPS. Everything is someone else's fault.
Let me be perfectly clear - the issue that mechs aren't shipping with the game don't bother me anywhere near the perception I have that Rick is tone deaf to the concerns that have been expressed in the MMR thread (mechs is the latest, but certainly not the first). Yes, I can afford mechs if I want them, but that's not the point - I shouldn't even have to think about having to do so.
Yes, nobody cancelled their order over missing coin mechs (which would have cost them $1k). Would anyone have cancelled before the deposit deadline? I suspect not, but no one had the opportunity.
Most don't care about the missing coin mechs. Fine. What if the game were to ship without legs? Most of us have a spare set or two - no big deal, right? What if it was "too hard" to figure out what power supply needed to be installed in the game?
Doesn't matter - it's not a parts issue. It's a communication and trust issue. I don't want snarky answers from someone who doesn't think I'm intelligent enough to handle the truth. If I mess up, I take responsibility for it. I expect others (including Rick) to do the same.
I say it's not about the mechs - what do you think?
I acknowledge that I haven't read most of this thread. Question. Why are people giving your original post thumbs down? What kind of freaking moron would have a problem with you venting about this? Obviously at last count there were at least six... I just received my IM VE on Thursday and I would be freaking pissed if it was missing the coin mech. I have a grand on an MME; I am undecided on paying the rest of the amount due or cutting my losses; while no coin mech is a deal breaker it is obviously a concern.
Quoted from bigduke13:but I did withdraw very early
lol, of course you did.
Very relevant as folks who buy games vs bitchy non buyers defines what you call fanboys better. Rick has also done a great job communicating on this in the other thread.
Quoted from bigduke13:I'm always surprised at the fanboy defense on these forums. The fact that the mechs are cheap or few people want them is irrelevant; what is relevant is basic customer service and business practices. Saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it" is a flip way of deflecting a real issue with PPS business approach. Plus with the lockdown of deposits buyers are unable to pull out anyway. Similar to your cable company, just because you might not have any reasonable alternatives doesn't excuse piss poor service.
I would agree. People here tend to get fanatical, and blindly rally behind whoever is dangling a new shiny toy in front of them.
The largest issue I see here isn't the exclusion of the part, but the sequence of its announcement.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:lol, of course you did.
Very relevant as folks who buy games vs bitchy non buyers defines what you call fanboys better. Rick has also done a great job communicating on this in the other thread.
Most of the time people who are buyers are more likely to give the company that they preordered from a pass. They need to feel good about their decision to pre-order a game. It's just human nature.
Obviously this isn't always the case, and we have also seen plenty of examples of buyers (current or those who bailed) who have been plenty critical.
No time to waste reading all this...I am buying cause MM is the Best game ever not for 20 $ Coin Mech
But for the Best Voices in a game The Best Toys The best Software The Best Looking !
"We eat you for lunch !" "Rescue the princess, I think she wants you"
Thanks to Rick and PPS !
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:That's really my point . You shell out the bucks you tend to get fanboyish as big duke calls it.
Yep, makes sense.
Assuming they did not change this part of the orig wms design, changing voltage input power is very easy to reconfigure on all of the wpc95 games.
Quoted from BrianMadden:The only thing that seems kind of fishy to me about this is that games will need different power supply configurations for different countries, right? So how is it that they can figure out and track the logistics of that, yet they can't figure out coin mechs? And how does Stern do it today? Couldn't they just, I dunno.. do what they always do?
To be clear I'm not complaining about the decision, but I'm saying that yeah, it doesn't totally make sense to say they couldn't figure out the complexity.
This thread reminds me alot of the Tron LE single slot coin door fiasco that Stern went through, just making the blanket assumption that no one would put one on route.
Makes me wonder how well equipped these MMrs will be to operate, sans the coin mechs.
Wow... I don't post here very often because of all the weirdness in this forum. But, I have to give my opinion on this one. Let's assume PPS made a mistake or isn't the most diplomatic with his responses. PPS has gone out of their way to communicate with the pinball community more than any other pinball company ever has. They contribute to the pinball community more than anyone ever has. Is all that down the toilet now because he made a "mistake"? He's clearly not a rip off. Yet, some of you guys are treating him like the enemy now. I see posts about never doing business with him and banning him from Pinside because he "has 2 accounts"? Seriously? All over $20 coin mechs missing in an $8K machine? Unbelievable.
OP, you seem like a reasonably intelligent person. But, I think you are letting this get to you way more than you should. A lot of that has to do with the PM's you're probably getting to fuel the fire. You're wasting way too much time and energy on this. Get off this forum and go play with your kids or take your wife out to dinner or something. No offense intended. Not trying to start a war with you and have you direct your energy towards me LOL. Just my opinion.
Quoted from Whysnow:Lol. Says the guy wearing a wrastlin mask
There must be a real reason why they are not included. Seems as plausible as any given the circumstances.
Even sillier shit. It's a Power Ranger mask and I'm wearing it to protect my kids from nighloks.
Quoted from rx3:PPS has gone out of their way to communicate with the pinball community more than any other pinball company ever has.
If you are talking about Stern, then yes. But when JJP started the WOZ project, he offered loads of information and set up a private forum for all of us who bought the game. We were constantly in the loop.
Quoted from edwinpblue:Question. Why are people giving your original post thumbs down? What kind of freaking moron would have a problem with you venting about this? Obviously at last count there were at least six...
Good question. I am actually more surprised at the three who thumbs downed my "thread has run it's course" post (#152). But it doesn't matter.
It was never my intent to crucify anyone for a mistake - though part of the issue was not acknowledging that there was one.
I received a note from Rick and his clarification in the main thread this morning shows that he may understand my primary point, at least to some degree (though I'm sure he would have preferred me taking a different approach).
If the end result is that we see more posts like the one from this morning that provide brief explanations on key questions, with enough detail so reasonable people can understand, everyone ends up being more informed, probably less worried and wild ass conspiracy theories get nipped in the bud before they have a chance to go viral.
Quoted from jfh:Good question. I am actually more surprised at the three who thumbs downed my "thread has run it's course" post (#152). But it doesn't matter.
It was never my intent to crucify anyone for a mistake - though part of the issue was not acknowledging that there was one.
I received a note from Rick and his clarification in the main thread this morning shows that he understands my primary point, at least to some degree (though I'm sure he would have preferred me taking a different approach).
If the end result is that we see more posts like the one from this morning that provide brief explanations on key questions, with enough detail so reasonable people can understand, everyone ends up being more informed, probably less worried and wild ass conspiracy theories get nipped in the bud before they have a chance to go viral.
..and they're pretty much the same answers that have been repeated many times about this issue. If you just want more specifics, calling BS, plopping on the tin foil hats and lighting the torches probably isn't the most helpful approach.
Quoted from rx3:Wow... I don't post here very often because of all the weirdness in this forum. But, I have to give my opinion on this one. Let's assume PPS made a mistake or isn't the most diplomatic with his responses. PPS has gone out of their way to communicate with the pinball community more than any other pinball company ever has. They contribute to the pinball community more than anyone ever has. Is all that down the toilet now because he made a "mistake"? He's clearly not a rip off. Yet, some of you guys are treating him like the enemy now. I see posts about never doing business with him and banning him from Pinside because he "has 2 accounts"? Seriously? All over $20 coin mechs missing in an $8K machine? Unbelievable.
OP, you seem like a reasonably intelligent person. But, I think you are letting this get to you way more than you should. A lot of that has to do with the PM's you're probably getting to fuel the fire. You're wasting way too much time and energy on this. Get off this forum and go play with your kids or take your wife out to dinner or something. No offense intended. Not trying to start a war with you and have you direct your energy towards me LOL. Just my opinion.
Amen, brother! My thoughts exactly. Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Quoted from Ed209:..and they're pretty much the same answers that have been repeated many times about this issue.
I disagree. If I had known what Rick posted today about PPS/CGC relationship, I would have never called bullsh*t on a previous response.
Quoted from jfh:I disagree. If I had known what Rick posted today about PPS/CGC relationship, I would have never called bullsh*t on a previous response.
Rick had posted that info earlier but people just called BS and accused him of passing the blame.
Quoted from jfh:Ok. Then why not just do whatever Stern does?
Rick isn't Stern, if he was this would be a licensed movie/band game and have shitty graphics.
Man with all of the grumbling about coin mechs (which I agree with), imagine if there are any serious misgivings with this game. Expectations are sky high and folks are ready to pounce in the event of any and all misgivings. I can't say that I blame the buyers who are plunking down 8K for a pinball machine.
Quoted from ZenTron:If friends or family help you unbox and machine doesnt have coin mechs, how are they suppose to play..?
I wonder if by default the game is in free play? It would be silly to have it start in coin op mode with no way to register a credit. 
Quoted from Pimp77:I wonder if by default the game is in free play? It would be silly to have it start in coin op mode with no way to register a credit.
Just flick the coin switch wire like any other machine.
I have recently purchased a 1947 1015 Wurlitzer Jukebox, when I first bought it some guy molested it and took out the coin mech and grinder, two things absolutely necessary for it to register credits and be truly fully operational, being I wanted the novelty of a FULLY FUNCTIONING COIN OP MACHINE I had invested more then $700 into parts to bring it to that state, my point in this is that there are some people who will want to have their machine fully operational in ALL ASPECTS no matter where it's going and should be entitled to having that when buying NIB, sure this MMR isn't a 1015 Wurlitzer, where originality becomes very fickle and costly, but when the damn thing was new it CAME WITH THESE COMPONENTS, and that's why it's so important to me that ALL my machines be fully functional in regards to coin acception, it is what it is with MMR, I'll buy mechs for it when I get mine, but I can still state how I feel about it, I just feel I shouldn't HAVE to do this, furthermore I don't believe the reason PPS gave to be a "valid" excuse for not having them, not having mechs saves the manufacturer about 12K in parts total in the LE run, Stern to my knowledge put coin mechs in their pros, why is the big bad MMR shy of such a common coin op commodity? I'll not buy my mechs from PPS, I feel that they took $24 worth of parts out of my new machine before I even got my hands on it and if I buy mechs from them I'll just be giving them an extra $24 out of my pocket... Despite all of this though I am still really excited to get my MMRLE! 
Quoted from Gangplank:I have recently purchased a 1947 1015 Wurlitzer Jukebox, when I first bought it some guy molested it and took out the coin mech and grinder, two things absolutely necessary for it to register credits and be truly fully operational, being I wanted the novelty of a FULLY FUNCTIONING COIN OP MACHINE I had invested more then $700 into parts to bring it to that state, my point in this is that there are some people who will want to have their machine fully operational in ALL ASPECTS no matter where it's going and should be entitled to having that when buying NIB, sure this MMR isn't a 1015 Wurlitzer, where originality becomes very fickle and costly, but when the damn thing was new it CAME WITH THESE COMPONENTS, and that's why it's so important to me that ALL my machines be fully functional in regards to coin acception, it is what it is with MMR, I'll buy mechs for it when I get mine, but I can still state how I feel about it, I just feel I shouldn't HAVE to do this, furthermore I don't believe the reason PPS gave to be a "valid" excuse for not having them, not having mechs saves the manufacturer about 12K in parts total in the LE run, Stern to my knowledge put coin mechs in their pros, why is the big bad MMR shy of such a common coin op commodity? I'll not buy my mechs from PPS, I feel that they took $24 worth of parts out of my new machine before I even got my hands on it and if I buy mechs from them I'll just be giving them an extra $24 out of my pocket... Despite all of this though I am still really excited to get my MMRLE!
It may be "only 20 bucks" (don't forget the shipping and tax) as some say but on 1,000 games that is 20K extra in Rick's pocket.
Hey it's only 20K.
Reminds me of the guys that sell you a game then sell the manual to you on Ebay.
Oh that's "extra".
Quoted from tracelifter:It may be "only 20 bucks" (don't forget the shipping and tax) as some say but on 1,000 games that is 20K extra in Rick's pocket.
Hey it's only 20K.
Reminds me of the guys that sell you a game then sell the manual to you on Ebay.
Oh that's "extra".
Yeah I remember Clay saying the manuals came "extra" on Stern LEs. The freaking MANUALS.
One of the things about how this was handled is that no one should have been surprised. It's one thing to surprise customers by including something extra, but to surprise them by taking something away at the 11th hour is totally different.
Somebody messed up and no one took responsibility. It's not like installing coin mechs in coin operated devices is a new concept - whatever you think of the decision, it's not one that should have been made at the last moment.
PPS/CGC could have made this a non-issue with a better initial response or by taking the suggestion of whoever suggested sending mechs/coupons to those that were upset. As far as I can tell, no one who suggested that option got the courtesy of a response. Somebody made a business decision not to do either, which only compounded the issue (e.g. All of the speculation that it was a cost-cutting move or something worse).
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Udenhout
Concord, NC
Vancouver, BC
