(Topic ID: 98940)

PPS / MMR communication - it's NOT about the coin mechs (or is it?)


By jfh

5 years ago



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  • Latest reply 5 years ago by TigerLaw
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#51 5 years ago
Quoted from PopBumperPete:

It is not as if Gary Stern and Jersey Jack have ever said the wrong thing

Correct, and there are 800,000 posts aboot it here

#52 5 years ago
Quoted from kmoore88:

It's not just PPS. It seems to be a prerequisite to be a curmudgeon if you want to run a pinball parts business.

lol. It's like the which came first, the chicken or egg debate. Do you start out as a curmudgeon or do you become a curmudgeon after all the inevitable griping happens over something or other.

#53 5 years ago

Exactly.

Try selling pinball parts to people like us for a couple of decades and see what kind of mood you are in.

#54 5 years ago

Does anyone else find it ironic that some of the more prolific posters in the other thread calling for a C&D on this topic are over here still posting on this topic?

#55 5 years ago

Its not about the missing mechs Its about not renaming it MMHE. Home edition

#56 5 years ago
Quoted from danisme:

lol. It's like the which came first, the chicken or egg debate. Do you start out as a curmudgeon or do you become a curmudgeon after all the inevitable griping happens over something or other.

I'm waiting for Clint to get into the pinball biz.

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#57 5 years ago

But then we couldn't complain about it over and over and over and over again on Pinside!

Quoted from LTG:

Call Rick and ask ?

He's posted his phone number and said many times to call.

If I had any questions, I'd email or call him.

LTG : )™

#58 5 years ago
Quoted from Sly_Old_Devil:

Does anyone else find it ironic that some of the more prolific posters in the other thread calling for a C&D on this topic are over here still posting on this topic?</blockquote

Folks said please keep the thread on updates about updates and start a new thread for this discussion. Now someone did. Thats irony?

#59 5 years ago

I like how you worded that, very cute.

Thought I was being more specific than that but let me make it a tad clearer, some people were saying please updates only (can't remeber too many pleases though tbh) those people are not here posting in this thread. Some people were using the word trolling and stop this subject is closed and silly (or words to that effect) some of those are posting here which is what I find ironic. Better?

I also enjoyed the hundreds of pages of trim "updates" from Rick but I am very much a freedom of speech and opinion advocate. Just so you know my stance on MMr as well, I am all for it and couldn't give a sh*t about the coin mechs personally but I happen to agree that there was a better way to handle it for everyone and not just for the folks that say please and thank you etc such as your good self

#60 5 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Are there other specific instances where you think Rick/PPS mishandled communication with his customers? Maybe some examples would make more clear why you view this as a trend.

viper001 actually put together a pretty good list later in the thread and summed it up better than I did -

Quoted from viper001:

Rick has answered a ton of questions related to the 3 trim choices and other subjects that he either likes talking about, or else makes his product look good. He is careful to avoid answering anything outside of that.

And when Rick avoids a topic, he seems to use one of the approaches I mention in the OP to avoid discussing (or sometimes even acknowledging) topics that don't fit his talking points.

To answer your question directly - The other issue where I believe communication was mishandled (and really the only one that was a significant issue for me) was the warranty/ownership/transfer issue. That bothered me for a number of reasons, but mainly because Rick went out of his way to disparage me and others for commenting on the issue. I was in the third row at the Expo announcement session - I heard every word, every question and every answer. I even asked Rick point-blank follow up questions about the warranty until I was confident I understood the policy. Months later, the response was I must have misunderstood or heard something wrong. Rather than an honest acknowledgement of "hey - we thought it some more, changed the policy, here's why", I (and others) were simply dismissed as ignorant loons that didn't know what they were talking about.

A number if years ago I moved from a product development lab to field marketing support as a Systems Engineer. Less than a week in, I was giving a presentation on an upcoming product to a room full of mid-level executives and one of them asked me a question that raised an interesting issue. "I don't know, but I'll find out and get back with you." All of a sudden, there was dead silence in the room and I wasn't sure what had happened. After a few beats, I asked "was anything wrong?". Smiles broke through and someone spoke up - "No, not at all. It's just that no one from [company] has ever been that honest with us before. There's always some sort of marketing double talk answer".

My honesty (or naïveté) paid huge dividends for me. One of the customer execs took to me and I became his diving rod of sorts. In the long run, my company sold more than we otherwise would have, but we also didn't make certain sales because the exec trusted me to give him an honest assessment without having to worry if I was just trying to sell him something for the sake of making a quota. And I even had an $11M competitive win back on one project in the strength of "if Jim says he's confident this is the best option for us, that's enough for me" which is probably the most gratifying praise I ever received in my career.

I'm sure I could have avoided the original issue by deflecting it or coming up with some clever sounding technobabble, but it clearly would have cost me in the long run.

So far, Rick doesn't see the benefit to PPS of not fearing the uncomfortable questions and taking them head on.

#61 5 years ago

Need a 'Storm in a teacup' .gif

#62 5 years ago

Ya'll pinball people seem to eager to write checks and put a non existent pin on layaway. I may or may not buy an MMR, ill wait till they are released and get feedback first. All this buy & pay now and not have anything till who knows when seems to be accepted by a lot of folks here.

-1
#63 5 years ago
Quoted from Ed209:

You should add a poll to see how many people care about the lack of coin mechs vs those that don't. I'd be curious to know.

The number of people who care about the lack of coin mechs is irrelevant and having a better idea of that number doesn't do anything to advance the cause of getting transparent info from PPS on issues that may not be of concern to them, but are to some of their customers.

#64 5 years ago

If I buy you an ice cream cone, will that make you happy?

#65 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

The number of people who care about the lack of coin mechs is irrelevant and having a better idea of that number doesn't do anything to advance the cause of getting transparent info from PPS on issues that may not be of concern to them, but are to some of their customers.

I think the best question is why would a customer give a company an interest free non refundable deposit on a product when they don't even know what the details of the product are.

#66 5 years ago
Quoted from ZenTron:

I think the best question is why would a customer give a company an interest free non refundable deposit on a product when they don't even know what the details of the product are.

It's a MM. Pretty sure people know what a MM is, and when you have someone like Roger Sharpe say that the game plays like the original it tells most people all they want to know.

I edited my post to correct the spelling of Mr. Sharpe's last name.

#67 5 years ago
Quoted from PopBumperPete:

If I buy you an ice cream cone, will that make you happy?

Would it come with ice cream? Or just the cone?

Now a days, you can't be too sure.

#68 5 years ago

You guys need to settle down. Rick could have pulled a Stern from the beginning and told us nothing. Instead he updates us, answers questions, and offers up his cell number if the above isn't enough. Grow up everyone. Rick is going above and beyond in his communication. Some people just love to find negatives in any situation and/or stir the pot. I am sitting back and looking forward to my MMr.

#69 5 years ago
Quoted from Sly_Old_Devil:

but I happen to agree that there was a better way to handle it for everyone and not just for the folks that say please and thank you etc such as your good self

Quoted from Hwawonyu:

I agree with the Op that Ricks mistake was dealing with this after the deposit period. But I have had to tell customers things that suck so I get it. At this point I hope its his one slip and focusing on moving games will make up for it.

Too hard to read page one eh ; )

#70 5 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

It's a MM. Pretty sure people know what a MM is, and when you have someone like Roger Sharp say that the game plays like the original it tells most people all they want to know.

Seriously?

You don't think Roger Sharp is biased? You think he'd really come out and say that MMr doesn't play like the original?

-1
#71 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

- Shortly after deposits on MMR became non-refundable, Rick announced that MMR would ship without coin mechs.

I guarantee you, if this issue is just too much to handle and such a bait-n-switch, I bet you anything that you could get a full refund + deposit. Have you asked? Just get a refund…be done with it.

#72 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

To answer your question directly - The other issue where I believe communication was mishandled (and really the only one that was a significant issue for me) was the warranty/ownership/transfer issue. That bothered me for a number of reasons, but mainly because Rick went out of his way to disparage me and others for commenting on the issue. I was in the third row at the Expo announcement session - I heard every word, every question and every answer. I even asked Rick point-blank follow up questions about the warranty until I was confident I understood the policy. Months later, the response was I must have misunderstood or heard something wrong. Rather than an honest acknowledgement of "hey - we thought it some more, changed the policy, here's why", I (and others) were simply dismissed as ignorant loons that didn't know what they were talking about.

Sorry, should have remembered, I think you and I had some back and forth about the warranty in another thread a few months back. I don't think I was convinced that PPS had actually changed its warranty policy, but do recall that you felt pretty pasionate about it. Again, it seems to me that the smart business move on PPS's end would be to stop posting on the boards at all and just focus on making games, but Rick's posts do give us all something to talk about.

#73 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

You don't think Roger Sharp is biased? You think he'd really come out and say that MMr doesn't play like the original?

No, he was working for Williams at that time. And game play had to meet his approval, for Williams. No skin off his hind parts if he didn't okay it and Planetary and Chicago Gaming had to start over. He got paid the same either way. And I suspect he wanted to protect his employers interests, not someone else's.

LTG : )™

#74 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Seriously?
You don't think Roger Sharp is biased? You think he'd really come out and say that MMr doesn't play like the original?

I wonder if Roger coined up the game he tested?

#75 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I guarantee you, if this issue is just too much to handle and such a bait-n-switch, I bet you anything that you could get a full refund + deposit. Have you asked? Just get a refund…be done with it.

I bet you are right. He'd be happy to make a refund or two.

But what if 30 people thought it was enough of an issue to want a refund? 50? 100? At some point PPS is going to rely on their non-refundable deposit date having passed and deny a refund of the deposit.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say whether the OP could get a refund or not really isn't the point.

#76 5 years ago

Stop looking , found them .. lasvegas.craigslist.org link

#77 5 years ago

#firstworldproblems

-1
#78 5 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

No, he was working for Williams at that time. And game play had to meet his approval, for Williams. No skin off his hind parts if he didn't okay it and Planetary and Chicago Gaming had to start over. He got paid the same either way. And I suspect he wanted to protect his employers interests, not someone else's.
LTG : )™

And what do you think would happen if he said "no, this is no good, it doesn't play enough like the original, I won't sign off on this"?

#79 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

And what do you think would happen if he said "no, this is no good, it doesn't play enough like the original, I won't sign off on this"?

PPS would go back and fix it to meet his approval?

#80 5 years ago
Quoted from Ed_in_Texas:

#firstworldproblems

All pinball topics are first world problems-

#81 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

And what do you think would happen if he said "no, this is no good, it doesn't play enough like the original, I won't sign off on this"?

That would be up to PPS and CGC. Stop and quit. Or move on and make what ever changes necessary to get Williams approval.

LTG : )™

-3
#82 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Seriously?

You don't think Roger Sharp is biased? You think he'd really come out and say that MMr doesn't play like the original?

Roger is a player. And his last name is spelled Sharpe. When you make comments like this, it makes me think you don't know your pinball history. If you knew anything at all about Roger, you wouldn't question his judgement. He's not a shill for anyone and has never been one in the past.

Go ahead and bitch about missing coin mechs, but don't be talking shit about Roger. Him and Tim Arnold are the closest things to untouchables that this hobby has.

#83 5 years ago

Tim catches plenty of shit, so why not Roger?

When you have a huge influx of people into a hobby, it's only natural people aren't gonna know or respect its history.

#84 5 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

Roger is a player. And his last name is spelled Sharpe. When you make comments like this, it makes me think you don't know your pinball history. If you knew anything at all about Roger, you wouldn't question his judgement. He's not a shill for anyone and has never been one in the past.
Go ahead and bitch about missing coin mechs, but don't be talking shit about Roger. Him and Tim Arnold are the closest things to untouchables that this hobby has.

Oh stop.

I didn't say anything negative about him at all. I'm talking "shit" about Roger? Seriously?

Untouchable? Good lord!

#85 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

I bet you are right. He'd be happy to make a refund or two.
But what if 30 people thought it was enough of an issue to want a refund? 50? 100? At some point PPS is going to rely on their non-refundable deposit date having passed and deny a refund of the deposit.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say whether the OP could get a refund or not really isn't the point.

If it really spiraled that far out of control - I bet he'd start offering coin mechs to fend off refunds lol…but that's why I said in the other thread - if this is truly a deal breaker for you - call Rick.

#86 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I guarantee you, if this issue is just too much to handle and such a bait-n-switch, I bet you anything that you could get a full refund + deposit. Have you asked? Just get a refund…be done with it.

It's not about the mechs.

Bait-and-switch? That's really pushing it.

What would getting a full refund accomplish? As I've previously stated, I want to see PPS succeed. I want to see other remakes made. I want to buy other titles from PPS. I just would prefer to buy them from someone who is willing to step up and admit mistakes when warranted and not seemingly take every criticism or suggestion as a hostile attack.

If Rick changes nothing about the way he communicates, I doubt it will impact my future buying decisions. But it will change about how I look at the company.

#87 5 years ago

Good lord. How do you even enjoy pinball at all if silliness like this gets you so angry?

#88 5 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Too hard to read page one eh ; )

I think the sentence makes sense. I do see your point and I didn't mean to label you specifically as a please and thank you person or push you under the everyone moniker (as in them and us) in the great coin mech comms debate.

As for the actual thread points being debated I am afraid that we are going to have to agree to agree on this one.

#89 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

It's not about the mechs.
Bait-and-switch? That's really pushing it.
What would getting a full refund accomplish? As I've previously stated, I want to see PPS succeed. I want to see other remakes made. I want to buy other titles from PPS. I just would prefer to buy them from someone who is willing to step up and admit mistakes when warranted and not seemingly take every criticism or suggestion as a hostile attack.
If Rick changes nothing about the way he communicates, I doubt it will impact my future buying decisions. But it will change about how I look at the company.

*sigh*

THEY'RE F*CKING COIN MECHS! lol

Rick communicates WAAAAAAAY more with more relevant information than almost any of the other pin manufacturers. Sure, he's a little dry & matter of fact…maybe a hair defensive….but all things considered, he's kept us all in the loop & listened to our criticism of castle movement, trim, etc.

Sure, when I heard the mechs wouldn't be included…my first reaction was "really?" …but it doesn't affect my life at the end of the day, it's such a minor thing. Compared to my NIB games that HAVE come with coin mechs but had a billion other problems…the last thing I'm worrying about are coin mechs.

#90 5 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

If you knew anything at all about Roger, you wouldn't question his judgement. He's not a shill for anyone and has never been one in the past.

I'll go one step further - That there was a condition from WMS that Roger had to sign off that the remake played like the original is what sold me on the idea of the PPS platform. If Roger said the game played like the original, that was going to be good enough for me, so the decision to put a fully refundable $1k down was easy. I doubt I would have been in day 1 without the "Roger approval" being in play.

#91 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Rick communicates WAAAAAAAY more with more relevant information than almost any of the other pin manufacturers.

You have to admit that's a pretty low bar in comparison though ...

What about the issues on vid's list? It's one thing to talk about all the good/easy stuff. It's how you handle the other stuff that shows what you are made of. (And here Rick is not much different from Stern or JJP).

Quoted from Rarehero:

…the last thing I'm worrying about are coin mechs.

Ditto. But the how the coin mech issue was handled makes me wonder if we have any other negative surprises in store. If someone dances around an easy subject or can't give you a straight answer to a direct question, it's just human nature to have a little less trust the next time. I really think that's a key takeaway here.

Folks that keep posting that it's silly to be talking about coin mechs are either:
(a) doing exactly what Rick wants them to do - dismiss this whole thing as crazy talk sour grapes about a $20 part rather than question why Rick won't talk about anything in a straightforward manner if the topic is seen as being a threat to his agenda.

and/or

(b) too dense to realize this isn't about coin mechs, in which case maybe Rick is right - some on Pinside aren't smart enough to handle the truth ...

#92 5 years ago

Roger Sharpe's opinion of the game is now moot since hundreds of people have played the same prototypes at shows, and all the reviews were the same. I don't get why this is even brought up?

#93 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

Ditto. But the how the coin mech issue was handled makes me wonder if we have any other negative surprises in store.

It's childish to make that leap. He gave an answer about the coin mechs. Whether you like the answer or not, that's up to you. How does that have any bearing on the rest of the game? When the game was played at TPF, everyone said that it looked and played just like a MM. I've talked to people who've seen the final playfields and have said that they're immaculate. What else do you think is going to be "taken out by surprise"? You think it's going to show up without dragons or trolls? BYO Flipper Bats? I mean…seriously…once again….THEY'RE MOTHER F'ING COIN MECHS.

#94 5 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Roger Sharpe's opinion of the game is now moot since hundreds of people have played the same prototypes at shows, and all the reviews were the same. I don't get why this is even brought up?

I agree. And virtually all of the reviews have been positive. People that I know and trust have played the protos and had very good things to say, some of whom have a very critical eye. Hopefully the production ones will play the same, and there won't be any (other) negative surprises.

#95 5 years ago

I think people are stuck on having to pay for them. Its one thing to say "hey guys, it'd make my job easier so no coin mechs installed, but here are coupons to redeem later for coin mechs of your choice." This would be the fair option.

As it sits, "if you want them, just buy them and pay for shipping and you can have them if you want them so badly." Isn't really fair and almost rude to not charge at cost and give free shipping if you have to charge at all.

The margins on this pin is probably pretty decent, but I guess if rick wants the extra 1500 mechs X $5 savings, then go ahead.

#97 5 years ago

Those people that committed to buy these machines for an eight thousand dollar vote of confidence deserve better than this.

PPS should not be locking anybody's deposit, while they are nickel and diming parts off the machine. IMO, this is the same thing as outright theft.

#98 5 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

Rick has answered a ton of questions related to the 3 trim choices and other subjects that he either likes talking about, or else makes his product look good. He is careful to avoid answering anything outside of that. And he has certainly seen the questions because he will answer in those threads while being careful to address those issues. Here is a list off the top of my head, I may have missed some (and I will admit some of these may have been answered and I missed it):
1) Does it come with a printed manual?
2) Will there be available printed schematics as WPC had?
3) Will there be a goodie bag?
4) If 3 is yes, will it contain spare plastics?
5) If 3 is yes, will it contain those wing bolt things for securing the head on location?
6) 110 service outlet for soldering irons or lights?
7) How do software updates happen, are they going to be downloadable or will something have to be purchased to accomplish this?
Does opening the coin door have a high power lockout for safety?
9) Original had helpful scrolling text in the Test menu when you hit the Start button, telling fuse type and number, connector locations, etc? Will this OS?
10) Original had a dedicated power supply for the flipper coils, does this one?
11) WPC can compensate for a broken EOS switch, can this one?
12) Will test reports (credit dot) still work the same way?
13) Original could not be programmed to take a single coin for 1 credit, which some found to be a nuisance. Can this one?
14) Since all driver boards and power supplies are below the level of the playfield, are there going to be covers to protect against falling stuff (pinball dust, screws, etc)?
What did I miss?

A little late for someone spending $8k to be asking these questions. No?

#99 5 years ago
Quoted from lordloss:

I think people are stuck on having to pay for them. Its one thing to say "hey guys, it'd make my job easier so no coin mechs installed, but here are coupons to redeem later for coin mechs of your choice." This would be the fair option.
As it sits, "if you want them, just buy them and pay for shipping and you can have them if you want them so badly." Isn't really fair and almost rude to not charge at cost and give free shipping if you have to charge at all.
The margins on this pin is probably pretty decent, but I guess if rick wants the extra 1500 mechs X $5 savings, then go ahead.

Have.
They.
Called.
Rick?

#100 5 years ago

So MMR as delivered is not intended for commercial operation... Likely a legal loophole PPS is skirting???

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