(Topic ID: 234735)

Power?

By Nikrox2

5 years ago


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#10 5 years ago

Hi Nikrox2
I have taken Your pictures - I believe "my encircled blue" is the added main power switch. What is "my encircled red" - a burnt relay ? a relay in use ? a switch ? wired to ?
"My encircled green" is the Lock-Relay" - encircled "rosa / pink" is the so-called Kickoff-Switch (a bolt resting on the plywood can be made jumping up so switch in the cabinet opens).

Use a wooden stick and / or wear rubber gloves - plug-in , toggle-on the newly added main power switch - with the wooden stick press the armature on the Lock-Relay - do the lights in the pin turn on ? Does the Lock-Relay stays pulling on its own ? Greetings Rolf

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#29 5 years ago

Hi Nikrox2
in post-22 You write "when I (You) manually hold up the Game-Over-Relay I get the playfield to work" - question: do You You must force ? - fight against the coil on the relay as the relay actually wants to plunge / trip ? --- Try: Unplug the main-power-cord then do the hold up the Game-Over-Relay --- does it stays "up" once You manually have lifted ? I am not sure about this - so I ask. Usually pins want the Game-Over-Relay in state "Game-Over / tripped" when we toggle-on the pin. So in the JPG I put ?11 etc.

In a functioning Double Barrel You have some replays on the replay-counter - You plug-in the main-power-cord, then You press the Replay-Button - "my 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9" happens. Due to closed "my 8, 9" switches: The Lock-Relay should stay pulling (110VAC feeds the transformer - 24VAC is made - feeding through "my 6".
Try: Plug-in the main-power-cord - then (wear rubber gloves or use an wooden stick) press the armature on Lock-Relay - then let go --- question: Does the Lock-Relay stays pulling ? If not: You have one or more faults on "my 6 8 9" switches and / or the wires to these switches.

You force the Game-Over-Relay up - means You force state "relay is latched, pin is in play" - yes, when "in play": We can actuate flipperbats etc. --- when the pin is in Game-Over (relay is plunged / dropped / tripped): Playfield stuff is not operating - all the pins I know have this functionality. Greetings Rolf

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#38 5 years ago

Hi Nikrox2
my posts usually are long (lengthy ?) - so I did my post-29 short. You ask about #2, #6 etc. Here I write the post "long" - I take the same JPG , do not change the numbering but add "A B C ...": If I would have bought the pin - I'd then look up the schematics and say
There is a two-prong cord - on side "A" there is a direct connection to transformer-lug ("F"). Also coils and a motor has connection there (B C D E) --- no switch in this wiring. On the incoming cord on the other side (G) I see connection to the fuse "H" (so this side I call POWER-side) - no original Toggle-Switch (I) - a connection (J) where several wires are connected - several wires lead to "L" but ALL these wirings have one or more open switch(es) - 8 9 5 K - then to M (I call transformer-Power-Side).
When I plug-in the main-power-cord: Nothing happens as "8 9 5 K" all are open - the transformer is not hooked-on yet. I want to start a game by pressing the Replay-Button so I close "green 1" - I have (lets say) 11 Replays on the Replay-Counter - see https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=709&picno=30093 , in the first wagon - this means the "my green 2, Open At Zero RePlay-Stepping-Unit switch" is closed (happens to be open when there are no replays on the counter). The Lock-Relay is not (yet) pulling, the switch on the relay (green 3) is closed --- I press the Replay-Button and the Coin-Relay (green 4) must fire - its armature moves, all its switches actuate - "N" closes and "5" closes - I HAVE connection on the Power-Side to "M". "O" is shown open, the motor is not (yet) running - the "P" lets current flow - I HAVE established Self-Hold-Current power-side for the Coin-Relay (green 4) through "N P J 5 L M" (((on the other side is connection "4 C F" - the Coin-Relay stays pulling for a while.
O.K. - the Coin-Relay stays pulling for a while and the transformer is hooked-on (by closed green 5) - the transformer produces magnetism, produces 6VAC and 24VAC --- on the 5VAC side "green Q" I do not see switches - some lights must light at this time. On the 24VAC side I see a connection on the Lock-Relay (I drew green lines) - the Kickoff Switch (green 6) is drawn closed, is closed - as soon as the transformer is hooked-up - through "my green wiring, closed "green 6": The Lock-Relay-Coil (green 7) must fire, actuate the armature, actuate all its switches - (opens green 3) closes "green 8 and 9": The transformer is definitely hooked up - the Coin-Relay may let go and open "green 5" - the transformer is definitely hooked up through "green 8 and 9" - 6VAC and 24VAC are produced forever - the Lock-Relay stays pulling forever (through green 6).

I plug-in the main power cord - nothing happens as I expected it, I then press the Replay-Button - nothing happens - the Coin-Relay should pull-in but does not - I found the first fault --- I say "I simulate "Coin-Relay pulls-in": I wear rubber gloves / use an wooden stick, I actuate the armature on the Coin-Relay - do I see the lights light up ? - I should see. I let go on the Coin-Relay - it should stay pulling for a while - does it ? The Lock-Relay should pull-in - does it ? If it does not pull-in: I simulate "Lock-Relay pulls-in" by actuating the armature on Lock-Relay and then let go - does the Lock-Relay stays pulling ?

Nikrox2 - the "green 2" is a switch mounted on the Replay-Unit in the Backbox --- a rod mounted on the wheel opens a switch - when there are no replays on the counter. The "green 6": see the first JPG in post-10, encircled rosa / pink: The Kickoff switch - we see it also (better) in the JPG in post-14 - milky white round thing is the holding, above is a switch that must be closed. If We do hammer upwards onto the plywood at this place: A bolt would jump upwards and open the switch for a moment - this would cut the Self-Hold-Current on the Lock-Relay (green 6 opens) - Lock-Relay let go - all switches actuate back means "green 8 and 9" open and cut powerside-connection on the transformer --- pin is "toggled-off" - the pin does originally not have a toggle-switch BUT we can toggle-off by hammering upwards onto the plywood at the place where the Kickoff-Switch is mounted.

Checking a wiring seen in the schematics: Most of the time it is enough to "locate in the pin the coil and/or switch - wire truely soldered-on (gently pull a bit) ? switch clean and proper gapped ?
Danger - 110VAC in the pin - also 24VAC / 6VAC can kill people - always have the main-power- cord unplugged when You work on the pin --- ONLY plug-in when You NEED current for testing - wear rubber gloves for insulation - avoid touching solder-lugs / bare wires.

The written above is the long version of post-29 - You made some progress - may have questions - lets resume on posts 36 / 36. Greetings Rolf

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#46 5 years ago

Hi Nikrox2
Your Replay-Unit, JPG in post-40 looks like my "Shangri La Replay-Unit" - subtracting Replays is turning counterclockwise - step by step. Stepping from "1 Replay" to "0 Replay": The rod "red point" opens one or two switches (rather late pins have 2 switches). Adding credits is stepping clockwise --- an adjustable rod (my blue point) opens the "MAX-Switch" usually set by the operator to 10 or 15 or 20 or 25 Replays that can be stored on the Replay-Unit (the maximum I have ever seen was 37). In Your JPG I see holes drilled to screw-in "blue-point rod" - but I do not see the rod. See in the schematics at position (in the schematics F-10 / F-11): O. at 18 R.P.S.U

See the second JPG - the "green J, green L" - I refer to post-38, JPG - You said You want to find these knots of electrical wires in Your pin --- You will NOT find. See in the second JPG (here) the actual wiring in Your pin may be like "my blue lines, my brown lines" --- electrically the same as in the original schematics - in reality in the pin(s) there is NEVER a fork-off from a running wire - ALWAYS existing solderlugs on switches / coils are used - schematics are drawn abstract / made beautyful, grouped by usage.

In troubleshooting - are You at "when the Replay-Button is pressed: The Coin-Relay does NOT pull-in" ? Does the Coin-Relay stays pulling for a while when You manually press the armature on the Coin-Relay ? We can / may have to use Jumper-Wires to force connection to the Coil on Coin-Relay - BUT: Using here Jumper-Wires means You handle 110VAC-line-current.
What would You like to have an detailled look-at ? Greetings Rolf

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#50 5 years ago

Hi Nikrox2
for all to see - I have taken one of Your pictures and then have turned 180 degrees - the relays in the (Control) Bank.

I always fear to troubleshoot in pins having an "Game-Relay" --- not sure how this works in detail ... Your pin has such an Game-Relay - see the schematics at DEFG-3 /-4: The motor must run, close the make-part of a Make-and-Brake-Switch, Coin-Relay must pull and close a switch, Game-Relay must have its switch "other than shown in the schematics" - the Start-Trip-Relay in the (Control) Bank plunges and (see in the schematics at DEFG-4) makes the Start-Relay to actuate - this then makes "Self-Hold-Circuitry" - Start-Relay stays pulling for the rest of the Score-Motor turn (of 120 degrees).

You write: "2nd coin relay goes off ..." - see DEFG-3 --- the Game-Relay-Switch is in "Unwanted position" - and, grumble: We are on my problem "EXACTLY how does the Game-Relay works ...". Greetings Rolf

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#52 5 years ago

Hi Nikrox2
I am still after the "Start Trip Relay" --- You say in post-51 "closing the two bottom switches on it makes the pin to let You play". HOW MANY switches are in Your pin on this Relay ? I looked over the schematics - I have found four switches - did I find all ? I have put in my snippets (schematics) the colors of wires - can You tell me which switches You do close (((I hope for AA and BB))) ? Greetings Rolf

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#55 5 years ago

Hi Nikrox2
again - it is getting late in Switzerland - it is time for me to go to sleep - tomorrow I will look again in the schematics - for the fifth switch --- when You do the manipulation on the Start-Trip-Relay-Switches: Does the Start-Relay pull-in ? Does the Reset-Relay pull-in ? Does the Ball-Count reset ? Greetings Rolf

#58 5 years ago

Hi Nikrox2
On the Start-Trip-Relay-in-the-Bank-of-Relays You have 3 switches closed and two switches open when the relay is up means resetted. I have found the fifth switch - see the JPG "my orange EE". So in the JPG drawn open are "AA and BB" - I believe these are the switches You manipulate for to "start a game" (?).
Yes, the Start-Trip-Relay must actuate / plunge at a time - see the JPG - encircled green - the motor must run, actuate motor-switch (close) B 1 --- the Coin-Relay must pull and have closed its switch and the Game-Relay must be (I believe it must be) plunged so its switch is other than shown in the JPG: Then the Start-Trip-Relay does / must plunge.
You mechanically make it plunge but then the Score-Motor endlessly runs - questions: Do all THREE switches on the Start-Trip-Relay TRUELY open ? Does the Coin-Relay endlessly pulls ? Does the Start-Relay endlessly pulls ? See in the JPG "my orange EE" - when this switch faulty does not open: The Coin-Relay stays endlessly pulling.
See the Coil with the yellow wrapping paper on the bottom of the JPG in Your post-56 --- the Relay-Bank-Reset-Coil - does it ever fires ? See my JPG, "encircled red" - when the motor runs and throws its switch and the Start-Relay is pulling and the Reset-Relay is not pulling: Relay-Bank does reset.

See the second JPG --- upper left corner we see all the switches that make the Score-Motor to run - the first question always is "Do I (You) see an Relay endlessly pulling ?". On the bottom of the second JPG I show the Score-Motor-Switches - we may have to look at one or two or more. Greetings Rolf

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1 week later
#63 5 years ago

Hi Nikrox2
I had a busy, troubled day. I go to sleep, I will answer to Your posts 60, 61, 62 in about 20 to 24 hours. Greetings Rolf

#68 5 years ago

Hi Nikrox2
today was a nice sunny day in Switzerland, temperature around freezing point.
Sad - Your pin was doing fine but not for long. When there is a pause in a topic I happen to forget --- does post-51 tells about the situation Your in (again) ? Can You manually do activate a relay (Coin-Relay, Start-Relay, Start-Trip-Relay, Reset-Relay, other relay) to get life into the pin ?
I already have said it - I say it again: I always have problems with these old pins having a Game-Relay as I do not understand the function of the Game-Relay.
Almost on top in the JPG in post-58 we see "pushing the R.P.-Button (Replay-Button) makes the Coin-Relay to pull in - what happens when You manually activate the Coin-Relay ? Attention, Danger: Wear rubber gloves - the stuff operates on 110VAC !!! Greetings Rolf

#73 5 years ago

Hi Nikrox2
great, YOU could fix Your pin. Yes, we should play the EM-Pins occasionally --- the "precious Self-Cleaning" only works when we play the pin. May want to read here:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/1965-bowl-a-strike-crazy-at-startup#post-3231326

Hi cologneled
A new topic always is interesting for people who want to help - want to start Your own new topic ?
Greetings Rolf

3 months later
#76 4 years ago

Hi Nikrox2
I am doing +/- fine, some problems here and there - AND I do have the problem "I am not so good in/with old Williams pins having the 'turntable, Gottlieb-like Score-Motor' " --- fellow pinsiders - when You are familiar with these pins: Please participate.

To me - a real problem is "what for is the Game-Relay - how does it function 'along the time-axis' - is it (exactly ?, quite alike ?, not at all ?) as Gottlieb-First-Ball-Relay". Other problems "Start-Trip-Relay and Start-Relay ?", "Outhole-Index-Relay - Outhole-Relay?", "where is the Trough-Switch mounted ?", "what relays are mounted in the Relay-Bank ?" Nikrox2 - is the Trough-Switch like here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2459&picno=46683 , upper right corner - on the way "Outhole to Shooter Alley" ? Do You have papertags in the pin telling what relays are mounted in the Relay-Bank ? what relays sit in the Relay-Bank ?
You write in post-75 " ... hitting the Credit-Button makes the motor to turn slightly ..." - in the ipdb-schematics I see: Your Score-Motor is 90 degrees symmetrical !!! (not 180 degrees like newer Williams / Ballys, not 120 degrees like Gottliebs) - does the motor turns 90 degrees then stops ?
You write in post-75 " ... hitting the Credit-Button ... makes the 2nd-Coin-Relay to actuate ..." - is this a relay in the Relay-Bank ? - is it a normal relay ? - pulling-in ? when the motor stops the relay has quit pulling ?

Does Your Game-Relay sit in the Relay-Bank ? If "Yes": Please two tests - first test having the Game-Relay "resetted" - the second test having the Game-Relay "plunged".
First test - have some credits on the Replay-Counter - please unplug the main power cord - now move the Reset-Arm on the Relay-Bank - the Game-Relay is resetted. Plug-in the main power cord - nothing should happen - then press the Credit Button - does the Coin-Relay pull-in ? (according to the schematics it should pull-in) --- what else happens ?
Second test - have some credits on the Replay-Counter - please unplug the main power cord - now move the Reset-Arm on the Relay-Bank - the Game-Relay is resetted - then manually make the Game-Relay to plunge. Plug-in the main power cord - nothing should happen - then press the Credit Button - does the Coin-Relay pull-in ? (according to the schematics it should pull-in) --- what else happens ? Greetings Rolf

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