(Topic ID: 326682)

Power driver board, original vs reproduction

By ravve

1 year ago


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#1 1 year ago

I need a new Power Driver Board for my T2.
I found a used original one, in working condition according to seller. The price tag is however about the same as a brand new non-original board. Which option is best according to you?

The non-original is this one, I am concerned about ghosting that could appear according to the information:

https://pu-parts.com/wpc-power-driver-board-for-bally-williams-a-12697?fbclid=IwAR2VqQwyYP63BU_1u5PrgkZ3sQwjgS7IUiYOmYggiAEc53GvvjbHCCSWZpw

Leaning towards the original one, which also has the benefits that it should be easier to repair when needed, than the new one that has SMD components. Am I thinking right?

#2 1 year ago

I've never heard of "PU Parts" before, but that model of PDB looks like it's PinLed's version.
Yes, it uses SMD, but - I admit, I have one in my TZ, and it's been trouble free since 2009. *knock on wood*

There are other options avaialble - depending on where you are, including Rottendog and DumbAss here on the forum, depending on how quickly you need it.

Can't speak for the website, but it's an EU site, so for that model may wanna check out https://www.pinled.de

#3 1 year ago

Thanks man!
Yes, the one from PU-Parts looks like the one from pinled, and it is the same warning text regarding ghosting. So do you have LEDs in your TZ and in that case, do you experience ghosting?

So your tips is to buy the non-original (new) one?
I was leaning towards the original one, now you got me confused..

#4 1 year ago
Quoted from ravve:

Thanks man!
Yes, the one from PU-Parts looks like the one from pinled, and it is the same warning text regarding ghosting. So do you have LEDs in your TZ and in that case, do you experience ghosting?
So your tips is to buy the non-original (new) one?
I was leaning towards the original one, now you got me confused..

I had ghosting, yes - but I also really dislike how LED's instant on-off, so I have a LedOCD board installed, which took care of both issues.

In your case, I would go with an original, or get yours fixed - unless you are really stuck on getting a new one. (I have no direct experience with anyone else's - I just got DumbAss 's power driver board delivered, so I can't comment on that. However, from the looks and feels of it, THAT would be my high recommendation (over PinLED or Rottendog)..

#5 1 year ago

Thanks man, I think I'll go with the original board then

#6 1 year ago

Just to jump into the water here. I have a WPC 89 powerboard in my Bally Dr Who. It came with a PINLED board that was from 2009. It still works fine. But when I added some LEDs in the PF inserts, I did notice the ghosting. I was recommended to get the LedOCD board, but they were out of stock at the time. I then thought it would be a good idea to have a new spare powerboard, when RottenDog was going out of business. I read all the nightmares with that board, also with ghosting when they worked. I made the mistake of getting a Pinball Basement board, that was advertising it was a direct copy of the original board. Well, the first one did not work. The second one finally arrived months later and had parts falling off it. I sent it off and had it repaired by a tech. It has ghosting too. Then I got a Dumbass board from Victor. It was great and not much ghosting. So if you are set on LEDs, get the LedOCD boards to control the on/off ramp set up and to avoid the ghosting to other lamps.

#7 1 year ago

An OEM board is always preferred to any aftermarket board.
Years of data and fault information have been accumulated for the OEM boards. We know how to repair them.

Some folks might cite "preventive maintenance" but I'm in the "if it ain't broke" camp. I have backup PCBs, but I'll never remove a perfectly working board to futz with it or replace it. A few exceptions: NVRAM or at least moving batteries off the board, Gottlieb System 80B/3 power supply and Classic BallyStern Power/Driver board voltage trim pots (these can fail in ways that allow much higher than design voltage onto power busses. And of course, if someone sends a board to me for repair, I'll bulletproof it to remove the possibility of future issues (cap C2 on a WPC Power/Driver board, for instance...it leaks). No sense in shipping a board more than once.

The very best aftermarket board would be a trace for trace copy of the OEM board, with minimum deviations to accommodate better design (such as replacing bridge rectifiers with gangs of diodes). Aftermarket boards should follow the part naming of the OEM board as close as possible. And of course, an aftermarket board should work...like the OEM board.

PinLED makes a nice board. My only comment on it is that a bunch of logic on the OEM Power/Driver board was replaced by a single CPLD with proprietary PinLED code. If that chip goes, it's back to PinLED for repair.

RottenDog...no comment. We're all up to speed on the issues there.

DumbAss Power/Driver board...made meticulously by a perfectionist with a stellar reputation. I have no hesitancy whatsoever using any DumbAss board in my games or in my client's games.

There are other aftermarket WPC boards out there, but I don't have enough experience with them to fairly comment.

I do like the design decision made by some to use surface mount chips (for ease and speed of manufacturing) with the PCB designed such that if the SM part fails, it can be removed, and replaced in a provided through-hole location. Alltek does this for some boards. Weebly does it for his 6803 MPU, Bally/Stern Lamp Driver and Solenoid Driver boards, and perhaps others. Someone made a WPC MPU with this design but I can't recall who that was.

Gottlieb System 80/A/B aftermarket MPUs are all difficult to work on as none of them mimic the OEM board.

My opinions only. YMMV, of course.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisHiblerPinball
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

PinLED makes a nice board. My only comment on it is that a bunch of logic on the OEM Power/Driver board was replaced by a single CPLD with proprietary PinLED code. If that chip goes, it's back to PinLED for repair.

This is my biggest issue wth PinLED stuff. I'm all for SMD tech, and am waiting for board repros here to catch up. However - using CPLD/FPGAs is a Bad Thing<tm> - UNLESS you release the program/firmware to download, so that if a chip goes bad, the board's not sent off to the junkyard.

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

The very best aftermarket board would be a trace for trace copy of the OEM board

The power trace routing on the wpc power driver board is probably the worst layout I've ever seen on a pinball board. There are a lot of good reasons to do it differently.

I can understand why a person who repairs boards wants tracks to be the same as the original for familiarity. Component designations should match, but linear regulators and bipolar transistors should go away in a lot of cases. Arcade full of linear regulators adds up.

The bally mpu i make goes off in the weeds a bit, but everything i make should be repairable by any tech familiar with the original board. Sometimes I change decoder to have active high out for mosfets and etc, but nothing deviates that much. Just send it back to me anyways if there is a problem.

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Just send it back to me anyways if there is a problem.

That's not a great solution.

I'm not qualified to comment on the specific design aspects. But it's pretty obvious that there should be a path to repair that doesn't require involving you, for a variety of reasons, including that you are a finite resource, with a finite amount of time, and that you are not a commodity, but rather an irreplaceable human being who, like the rest of us, will one day no longer be available.

There are pins approaching a century in age, which are still being maintained in good, operable condition today. If the designers of those pins had taken as their primary means of maintenance the requirement that a failed part simply needed to be sent back to them for repair if anything went wrong, those pins would've been relegated to the junk heap decades ago.

Independent repairability is a must-have design goal for anything even a fraction the complexity of a pinball machine, but definitely for any parts in an actual pinball machine. Especially for new parts, where we now know just how long people will be keeping these machines around.

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from pete_d:

That's not a great solution.
I'm not qualified to comment on the specific design aspects. But it's pretty obvious that there should be a path to repair that doesn't require involving you, for a variety of reasons, including that you are a finite resource, with a finite amount of time, and that you are not a commodity, but rather an irreplaceable human being who, like the rest of us, will one day no longer be available.
There are pins approaching a century in age, which are still being maintained in good, operable condition today. If the designers of those pins had taken as their primary means of maintenance the requirement that a failed part simply needed to be sent back to them for repair if anything went wrong, those pins would've been relegated to the junk heap decades ago.
Independent repairability is a must-have design goal for anything even a fraction the complexity of a pinball machine, but definitely for any parts in an actual pinball machine. Especially for new parts, where we now know just how long people will be keeping these machines around.

The boards i make, in my opinion are just as repairable as the original and in some cases easier to repair. I swap out obsolete logic chips when possible. Chip sockets. Staggered through hole and smt pads for power transistors and chips. Bad transistor, just cut two legs of the smt chip off and there are fresh holes for a through hole part. Don't have to desolder which is the most dangerous part.

They also have a pretty much lifetime warranty. Best of both worlds.

When people buy a new board it means that they likely not trying to repair the originals in the first place, so i don't expect them to be soldering on the replacement. I'd rather people return to me to fix it. Lots of bad soldering happens.

#12 1 year ago
Quoted from barakandl:

The boards i make, in my opinion are just as repairable as the original and in some cases easier to repair.

That's great to hear. There was some comment, not necessarily directed at your boards, above about use of PAL/CPLD/FPGA without documenting those circuits, making them essentially black boxes. That practice can create a situation where only the original manufacturer/designer of the board even has a hope of fixing it.

As long as your suggesting to send the board back to you is just that, and not because there's something on the board only you can repair or replace, that's fantastic. Being willing to service the board is awesome, as long as doing so isn't the only way to keep the board going.

#13 1 year ago

Thanks for all replies!
Now the guy who was selling the OEM board told me that it is the -3 or -4 revision (a-12697-3).
My T2 should have the -1 revision. I think I read somewhere that I can only use -1 and not later, due to fliptronic presence or something like that.

Can anyone confirm that the only revision that will work for me is the a-12697-1?

In that case, I am back to bying an aftermarket model since I can´t find any OEMs in Sweden

From my understandings reading the replies, DumbAss is the one to go with. I suppose it can only be found in the US?

#14 1 year ago

Yes, you need the -1 board with the relay when used in Terminator 2.

The -3 and -4 boards can be stuffed with a few components so that it becomes a -1 verson

flipper (resized).pngflipper (resized).png

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from ravve:

I need a new Power Driver Board for my T2.
I found a used original one, in working condition according to seller. The price tag is however about the same as a brand new non-original board. Which option is best according to you?
The non-original is this one, I am concerned about ghosting that could appear according to the information:
https://pu-parts.com/wpc-power-driver-board-for-bally-williams-a-12697?fbclid=IwAR2VqQwyYP63BU_1u5PrgkZ3sQwjgS7IUiYOmYggiAEc53GvvjbHCCSWZpw
Leaning towards the original one, which also has the benefits that it should be easier to repair when needed, than the new one that has SMD components. Am I thinking right?

I've bought stuff from pu-parts (a shop in Germany) at least 10 different times over the years and always got good parts. I haven't bought a power driver board from them but a wpc cpu board and it has worked great in my fish tales for at least a year now. So the store is 100% legit.

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