(Topic ID: 242867)

PoTC - Who has playfield cracking & wear around sling posts?


By harryhoudini

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 2,984 posts
  • 217 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 days ago by MarZ_78
  • Topic is favorited by 63 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“What kind of issues are you seeing?”

  • I have visible dimples but no chipping 45 votes
    22%
  • I can see chipping but haven't done anything yet 67 votes
    33%
  • I can see chipping and installed mylar, washer and/or larger star post 30 votes
    15%
  • My playfield looks fine (but I haven't removed the star posts) 31 votes
    15%
  • I removed the star posts and my playfield looks fine 15 votes
    7%
  • My game had clear washers installed from the factory 15 votes
    7%

(Multiple choice - 203 votes by 191 Pinsiders)

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Topic index (key posts)

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Post #306 Sling Post Remediation Efforts #1 Posted by harryhoudini (1 year ago)

Post #307 Sling Post Remediation Efforts #2 Posted by harryhoudini (1 year ago)

Post #432 Washer and Starpost Solution Posted by harryhoudini (1 year ago)


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#142 1 year ago

I saw someone mention placing two mylar circles down on each post. I might consider that tonight.

#178 1 year ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Ok, here are some pics. Let me say, these are preliminary, gotta wait for the phone to charge so I can use the flash. I can surely see the puckering of the clear around the posts with the arrows. I felt it with my finger, it is a very distinct lip. The one metal post that looks like it has a chip, I think has a chip. I am not 100% sure. One of my metal posts by the right outlane has a metal washer under it, not sure if that was added at the factory or not. The T/E lane separator has sort of washers built in and I can see those puckering (phone died). I want to remove one of the other clear narrow posts and see how dug in they are compared to the slings. [quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Definitely a t-nut.

Rats, my friend has my 1" hole punch from Hobby Lobby in her car. I'll have to hold off for mylar madness for another day.

Time for beer.

#239 1 year ago
Quoted from FryDaddy:

Well it is happening to my CE also.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Holy smokes...

Didn't you just get this the other week? How many plays do you have on it?

#276 1 year ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I am trying a few things
1 - I am trying double star posts, where the sling channel is lower than the single star post. See the comparison the pinballlife folks helpfully provided.
2 - If I still get escaped sling kickers, I will then remove the washers and do the mylar discs. For now I’d like to keep them, as I feel the padding is a positive thing.
[quoted image]

What washers are you currently using? I know the gummy ones from amazon are a no go.

I'm guessing these are the double star posts you picked up?

https://www.pinballlife.com/plastic-translucent-double-star-posts-1-116-tall.html

#278 1 year ago
Quoted from zaphX:

The gummy ones from Amazon.

I thought those were eating at the single star posts?

I think I might try the lowe's ones posted up above.

#330 1 year ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

My god, some of you have a lot of spare time on your hands.

I don't know that discounting someone's concerns is entirely fair. For an "average" person this is a monstrous purchase. So exploring every option available to protect it, for years of use and ownership, seems a pretty good use of time to me.

This is all upfront usage of time. It's not like anyone in this thread has been day after day compelled by this issue for years and years on end. Ideally, years from now, just regular maintenance exists solely.

#362 1 year ago
Quoted from 3pinballs:

Yeah that exactly what I'm going to do when I get my NIB game

I thought maybe he was joking....

#390 1 year ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

But... black!
And what am I going to do with 100 of them!?
AND not prime!
Aw damn, too thick I think... amazon.com link »
Here, less than a gross of them: amazon.com link »
Fine, make all you want! amazon.com link »

Do you feel rubber will be more absorbent, and less reactive chemically?

#417 1 year ago
Quoted from cheshirefilms:

Don't be foolish. This is clearly a design defect. I waited and haven't suffered cracking or chipping but after 100-150 plays I saw the clearcoat further ripple. No more wait and see from this boy. Protect now, or cry later.

I'm kinda of the same mindset, being in the same position as yourself. What steps will you be taking?

I've got tools to cut mylar circles with. Not sure how much further I should go past that currently.

#444 1 year ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

FWIW I had some sling escapes;
I initially tried slightly smaller white rubber rings; if anything this made things like airballs worse.
Then I tried dialing down the sling power more, and more; still getting some extreme sling action rarely (e.g. during multiballs). Eventually I have switched both slings back to the titan rubbers the game shipped with.
This plus low sling power seems okay for now! I have not noticed the slings being wimpy.

What setting did you end up dialing it down to? Figure I'd do that as well.

#464 1 year ago
Quoted from CollinT:

Just checked the JJPOTC at Boxcar in Raleigh, it’s #183 LE. It’s got the same issue.
Disclaimer: I do not own this machine and just want to help with other people’s issues
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Oh man. That's a Collector's Edition....

I wonder why they'd place that on route. I've heard Sunshine does the same thing.

#474 1 year ago
Quoted from Psw757:

I’m happy to report that the star posts with the Lowe’s neoprene washer works fine with very and I mean very minor leaf switch adjustment.
Doesn’t look bad either, went with 2 teal and 1 amber on each side and don’t see how these washers could dig in.[quoted image][quoted image]

Very nice work! Do keep us in the loop as to how things hold up with these installed. I think I'll get to my own tomorrow.

Did you put mylar down at all in addition?

#495 1 year ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

I'm gonna throw this out there... I wonder if mylar under the neoprene washers might be a good idea. I wonder if the neoprene is soft enough that repeated shock from the sling arm and ball will give some vibration and make the star posts and washers move every so slightly that it will scuff or ruff up the playfield under the washers. I have yet to install, so just spitballing but maybe someone else can chime in. I'm just worried about anyone having long term effects (wider area on the playfield) from these fixes. I guess the TNA folks might know more on this, if anyone has pulled them up after having them for some time.

vireland what are your thoughts here, neoprene washers, star posts and mylar or no mylar?

#511 1 year ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

I think they aren't quite symmetrical (obviously one side has the "arch" of the connector piece, but I think one side is longer) so I arranged them to be closer to the top where the ball drops and hits. I didn't stick them down yet, so I could flip them.

No need to really stick the slot protectors. I always go n rather than u, directionwise.

Does anyone have updates on their post situation? Going to replace mine with the Lowe's washers and single star posts I already have. Not sure if I should make mylar circles first also.

#514 1 year ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

There's a dedicated thread, most people seem to be doing the neoprene washers.

Wait....there's another NEW thread?!?!?!??

#516 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

I think he forgot he was in THE thread lol

Hahahaha!!

That's what I was thinking too, but then I bit and searched for this new elusive thread. HH is the master of POTC creation.

#524 1 year ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

I'm hearing rumors that JJP is talking about this topic, internally, presently.

Would you be able to make another poll, regarding what solutions/fixes people are undertaking?

Like nekkid, mylar, lexan washer and star post, all three, etc?

#527 1 year ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Argh can’t we let this topic rest? The solutions are well documented at this point.

Quoted from harryhoudini:

Yeah, I agree with zaphx. It seems like the overall, agreed upon solution is a neoprene washer under star posts. Option to use double star posts to lower the rubber if you want. Option to put mylar under the neoprene washer if you want. That's about it.
I think we have room to wait and see what JJP says and to watch other posts in our games to see how those continue to wear.
*There are key posts in this topic as well.

But it's discussion...within...a dedicated thread about this subject.

This forum is pretty spastic in jumping from potential issue to issue, and we're literally not even a week into this thread. So in my mind, we have no long or even short term data for what's working for people and what isn't. That won't occur for months, at least, down the road.

As someone that is still waiting to decide mylar or no mylar, or even if star posts will create a larger footprint of pressure into the clearcoat, I am curious as to what choices people have/are making, and if there have been effects as a result. Case in point, when I initially placed starposts with what was, at the time, the chosen solution, I noticed depressions within three hours of installation. So with that in mind, I am curious about current results from users, and for me personally, not repeating what happened prior.

I think that's a rational and fair mindset to maintain.

#529 1 year ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

I don't *think* I can create another poll within a topic with a poll already. It has the option to close the poll, but I assume that just stops entries but won't let me create another. If someone wants to make a post in this topic with combined info of solutions and who is doing what and such it could be made a key post.

I don't think that would be possible either, and I dare not suggest or start another thread on this.

My 1" paper punch from Hobby Lobby had an uneven cutting blade, and created really sloppy circles with tethered edges. So now I have to order a hole punch to replace that. I'm really exhausted by all of these precautionary issues to deal with.

#539 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

Outside of this post issue, what precautionary issues are you talking about? To date, I have done nothing to my machine including anything about the posts, and aside from a little chipping by the posts, it still looks new after 1200 plays. I wax about every 500 plays and change balls every 1000 plays. And even that's probably overkill...

Basically what Harry, down below, (As opposed to Harry Down Below, haha!) stated.

I guess what I never understand, is it's pretty clear there are two camps regarding this game, the "This isn't routed, and most wear will be minimal and take years to accrue, so I'm doing basic maintenance, and that's all." And the other being, "I'm taking every precaution upfront to protect this game within reason, for long term sustainability, and would rather take that hit now, than later."

We all seem to know which crowd one another is in, but I often feel the prior crowd incessantly comes into these threads, one or two now started specifically to avoid these issues, to tell the later mindset folk, that they are going way overboard in their efforts.

We get it guys. We. Get. It.

If anything, read along with bemusement, our anxiety laden hells we've created for ourselves, and in turn, ten years from now, we'll shake our canes at you, telling you how ya shoulda listened....

Quoted from harryhoudini:

Here's what I recall:
Protector wire sleeve on the BP wiring harness needs to be done, it sounds like. The VUK to the BP needs mylar where the ball drops. Cliffys are almost a requirement (tortuga hole gets beat to shit). The other star and narrow posts probably are going to need something done, I've yet to remove one but from my pics it seems like they are already causing issues. T-nut in map hole needs to be removed and cut (and a bunch of other crap has to be removed to get to this). Might need to add the narrow post under the playfield near the subway ramp (mine is missing it). Turn VUK power down and/or protect right opto from being bashed by the ball.

Yeah, the t-nut was an iffy one for me, but I went in and it took less time than I'd feared. My balls will be more contented and less scraped for the foreseeable future.

#542 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

I didn't post randomly out of nowhere, I was responding to your post:

But.....I read you often jumping into POTC threads to denounce people's concerns, and stress how you've had little issues with your game, the one you've had from late last year. I read those sentiments I swear a few times a week. That's great for you, but other people have issues or are stressed about issues that might be occurring down the road for them or with other owner's games. If people want to fret about that, that's on them (and we've made explicit efforts to divide that from the main thread) but I don't see any reason to go out of your way, and often, to downplay or negate their perspectives, as I know I don't leap at others that feel reassured, "oooooh, you'll regret it, I know you will!" Why on earth would I be so demonstrative to devalue someone's confidence or their fears?

It...is...exhausting, but it's a complex game, and I'm not placing blame anywhere for that. Though I definitely don't feel great seeing post rippling around the slings, and in every routed game I've seen (I think three, if not four) there have been cracks and chips around those very same slings, on a game not even a year available. So yes, a couple of years from now, or less, I might experience the same, and buying another playfield for a grand, isn't a viable solution for something that shouldn't be occurring this soon.

15
#557 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

So you're allowed to post about your issues as many times as you want, but I'm not allowed to post about my lack of issues?
I post this because newcomers or others who haven't been following get this idea that JJ POTC is some massively problem ridden shit show of a pin that is unreliable and has nothing but a ton of issues. The reality is the opposite. From launch through recent weeks, that never crossed anyone's minds. People posted issues - IF they found any, as just like any complex machine, sporadic issues crop up and if someone gets the pin they might have a similar issue and the info was consolidated by zaphx so people could find the answer in case they had a repeat problem that someone else had a solution for.
Fast forward to today, and because of a handful of people beating a dead horse, posting the same things over and over, and in some cases even trying to seemingly manufacture more people having issues than actually are, there is this notion that JJPOTC is a problem ridden pin and the sky is falling.

You're allowed to post whatever and wherever you wish. But I...am...saying you go out of your way, weekly, to inform people that feel they have issues, that their concerns are invalid. That's a crap attitude to take, not just once, but frequently.

Your stance isn't accurate. I haven't told you not to state anything at all. What I am saying is how you vocalize your lack of issues is purposefully worded in a way that's diminishing to others. You actively go out of your way to tell people that feel they have issues, that those issues have no validity. That would be akin to me saying, "oh, of course you've had problems all along" every time you state you haven't. (And from what I recall reading...you do have sling damage, bit it just doesn't bother you.) Why on earth would I go out of my way, to actively tell you your own words are hollow?

It's funny you mention zaphX as half of my bookmarked posts from before buying the game, were by him. Four months back, he littered that thread daily with half a dozen issues he was experiencing. I didn't post then, and tell him not to be concerned. I've messaged him multiple times thanking him for the problem solving he underwent to every owner's potential benefit. So how are these current issues being raised, any less valuable in being heard, weighed, and problem solved?

Regarding potential owners, as I stated above, I read the terror storm of posts from multiple owners for months prior to buying, and I STILL did. Were you concerned for me as a buyer then? Should I not speak out if I get my new game, and can't even lower the playfield properly? Isn't that something I should ask about on here, and speak directly with JJP about? Man, if you're so concerned with my quality or lack of quality control issues regarding my game, maybe you could alleviate some of my anxiety in coming and working the overtime I've undertaken to afford this game? Otherwise, please allow me to vocalize my concerns, sans feeling anxious about your approval, or anyone else's for that matter.

#560 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

To be clear, you're quoting my reply in a conversation that has nothing to do with the post chipping issue, but then talking about the post chipping issue?
The post chipping issue is clearly a real issue affecting many people to one extent or another, caused by what appears to be shoddy posts that were over-tightened during install.

The post chipping issue...is...what I've been discussing dealing with presently, and ideally lastly. That's what my initial post was about up above, asking for what solutions people are choosing.

#562 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

Now you're just putting words into my mouth in an effort to strawman. You're taking things said far too personally. But now we're getting off topic and I'm not going to feed into this kind of "debate".

You told me my concerns are invalid. That's how this "discussion" started.

Me, I'm just trying to resolve this sling issue before it gets potentially worse.

#568 1 year ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

So as an Aussie I have to ask do you guys mean rooted? (As in a proper root?)
Or is what you’re saying fitting in one of these definitions:
1. defeat and cause to retreat in disorder.
"in a matter of minutes the attackers were routed"
2. cut a groove, or any pattern not extending to the edges, in (a wooden or metal surface).
"you routed each plank all along its length"
3. DIALECT
(of an animal) turn up ground with its snout in search of food.
rummage about.
4. NORTH AMERICAN
find or retrieve.
"as I routed out the lantern, the telephone jangled"
force (someone) from a place.
"Simon routed him from the stables"
Just want to clarify if something weird is happening to all your machines.

See, this is what I’m talking about!!! You should all just stop it! I mean talk about machine abuse.

Hmm. None of the above? I guess more akin to on route, on a route. As in someone who services multiple machines in several businesses. From what I know anyway.

Ball abuse, is always a thing to be avoided. That is for certain.

#590 1 year ago
Quoted from zaphX:

All I wanted to do with that guide was to help people find their fixes quickly so they could enjoy this stellar game...and hopefully reduce repeat posts by pulling together the list in one place.
I do worry that it gives an unfair impression to people that you're going to see ALL the problems on the list, even though many of them are definitely one-offs.
So yeah, maybe in the end it was a bad idea. Hopefully it helped a few people and/or averted a few support calls.

Not in the least. It's just the state of home owner use, and modern pinball. There are issues that will arise, and in turn, there are certainly not games that will incur any or all of these issues.

Compiling them only helped. Like I mentioned, I read this thread, and of the game's potential issues, and still bought, and discovered just one or two of them, with one of my own being unique.

That's life. Well, pinball life, and home ownership.

#624 1 year ago
Quoted from Lermods:

If you put metal 1" washers on the two sling posts without the screw, that will raise the plastic enough so you won't need to worry about the screw touching the plastic. Mine don't touch that screw.[quoted image]

So which screw are we trying to avoid the sling plastic touching? I'm still hazy on this...

#632 1 year ago
Quoted from CUJO:

Oh, Collectors Edition...my bad

It's cool.

#634 1 year ago
Quoted from CUJO:

Actually not up on Pirates enough to know that the LE and CE use different playfields.

You could use either, it's just that only CE buyers were able to buy CE playfields.

#639 1 year ago
Quoted from gliebig:

I'm still waiting to read a useful post from you.

He's not even a fun or clever troll.

Keep trying though!

#645 1 year ago
Quoted from JY64:

If your trying for clever you really do need to keep trying lol

Not trying for clever, just trying to swat an incessant gnat.

#657 1 year ago

Is anyone concerned about how the neoprene Lowe's washers might react with the starposts?

Are you guys putting mylar under also?

#659 1 year ago
Quoted from zaphX:

The posts are like 70 cents. Buy spares. Worry less.

I just meant if there's a chemical reaction, like what occurred with the gummy one's from amazon.

The black do look kinda nice.

#676 1 year ago

To anyone that's placed the Lowe's neoprene washers, have they noticed any depressions from them in the clearcoat?

#680 1 year ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Forks shouldn't move at all when plunged. Prop the playfield hooks as already documented. Easy fix.

Or just loosen the three screws for the shooter assembly and shift it within the cabinet as needed. Easiest fix I've had so far!

#682 1 year ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Yeah sometimes doing that still doesn't give you enough clearance though.

One or both should work for him. Should....

#687 1 year ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Well, shit. Ok, I guess different rubbers next.
I got some translucent “perfect play” ones from I think Pinball Life.[quoted image]

Hammer time....again?!?!?

#691 1 year ago

He mentioned he doesn't have access to rubber washers.

Send him some HH!

#695 1 year ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Man these slings and posts are getting a ton of attention
Getting a CE and is there a consensus on what to do right out of the box with washers/sling posts?

I thought I read you lost the preorder at Pinballstar? How'd you snag one of these badboys?

People seem to feel neoprene washer, double star. I'll be using a circle of mylar too.

#697 1 year ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Done.

Don't use metal washers or anything hard, it will indent the playfield.
Send me your address in a PM. I'll see how much it is to send you an envelope with rubber washers.

You the man Harry! (Didn't mean to toss you into the fire like that.)

You seem a pretty community oriented guy. Good on ya!

#759 1 year ago
Quoted from Zora:

I just received my POTC last Thursday. Thanks to all of you who reported the sling post issues, so I was prepared well. My POTC has the small plastics under the Posts and soem minor dent in the clearcoat, but not a chip. The dent in my opinion is due (beside the fact the the clear possibly is not dry enough) to the fact that the hole in the plastic washer is too big so that the post can move on the washer and thus is not fixed.
I documented my protection actions in the following pictures. There are 2 ations: first is substitution of the pastic washers by (self cut) own ones and second fxing the whole goup of the 3 posts by an additional protection plastic (which takes away the pressure to the ground fix by the sling rubber, which is the best protection in my opinion).
The four pictures of the removed post shows the addition of the self cut plastic washer (with a narrow hole to fit exactly to the post metall). The seize was restricted to the holes in my playfield protector; without such protector I would have used bigger plastics. Next step was to add smooth rubber below the plastic, which is available in each colour and thus fits to each section of the playfield. After installing the post you can hardly see that anything was adjusted.
For the plastic cover fix I used the so called convolux protection plastics I purchased, which already has the 2 holes and drilled a third hole for the posts not fixed in the normal cover plastic (the very right and very left ones). But basically you can use every clear plastic for this purpose. Integrating the third post in the fix is the relevant step top do. After this the yellow protection plastic absorbs the slingshot pressure so that the ground fix of the posts should more or less get no pressure at all. The single posts do not move at all and the whole group of posts is very stabil.
The last picture shows the final look. I used two colours (brown and blue) for the smooth rubbers, which are hardly noticable. The drilled third hole in the yellow plastic is hidden by the cover plastic anyway. Now I am very satisfied with the result.
Possibly an alternative to the big black starposts with the thick black rubber below. Personally I do not like that look.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

I think is a pretty compelling solution also! How's it working out for you so far?

Did you get the yellow plastics from somewhere specific, and what materials did you use for your blue washers?

#779 1 year ago
Quoted from cheshirefilms:

Best of luck mate.
On my front, today, I removed the starposts, put back in the stock ones with the JJP washers.
Novus took out the indentations in the clear from the rubbers, which really wasn't much on my game.
Interestingly, a lot of the bloated clear around the post areas seemed to calm down from 60 or so games of even pressure from the washers and starposts.
As before, I'm one of the lucky ones (so far) that tried this switch before chipping actually occured
Anyways, Im not a science guy, but as I've seen it on my own game it's not just about sling escapes. Which was rare with the Titans on my double posts (1 in 60 plays-ish).
It's also about the airballs, which frankly the power of the sling hammer would probably have to be greatly reduced below the JJP lower limit given the diameter changes of the starposts. Same can be said probably for the sling escapes, too.
So while I do hold that the double starposts is the best fix for chipped clear games, I do now see that it's a qualified fix till a much lower sling power option is introduced, plus maybe some of the other mechs may need adjusting in the region, as the poster above has described.
Hopefully JJP will advise for the most affected- those whose games chipped before the poly washers were installed, but also be good to hear any updates for the rest of us.
[quoted image]

Soooooo....you're not entirely back to factory? What led you down that way, and you said you noticed washer indentations? That's why I've been reluctant in going that route.

You feel just a lower power setting would be the ultimate solution?

I kinda think the space around the posts, seems the largest issue for vibration reasons. As such I kind of think Zora has a sound idea with the smaller internal washers.

Quoted from Zora:

I just noticed that Mezel Mods has the plastic protector KIT in orange.

I actually had bought their clear one's, and they were incredibly thick. So much so I couldn't get the black spacers back in, and even on the slings, the nuts were barely able to be installed.

#800 1 year ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Well it's no secret Ghostbusters is a complete mess.
POTC was crafted with love.

After love creates....a mess is left behind.

Sadly, I've always found Ghostbusters to be one of Stern's more memorable recent games. It's had crazy issues, no doubt.

#811 1 year ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

Seriously, these would fix it:
https://www.titanpinball.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=52
[quoted image]
Put the standard posts in the clear or colour of your choice and it solves the problem!!!!

Are these the 1/2" post sleeves?

Would the tapered ones work as well or better? They seem like they are a combo of that and a washer.

#813 1 year ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Yeah, those are the 1/2". Same used on WOZ. Wonder if the tapered ones would look more odd.

At this point, odd < safe with this wacky game.

Did the 1/2" work well with Woz?

Have you ever tried the tapered?

#867 12 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Again no issues implied I think it sucks that such a great game would have so many flaws in the simple basic levels such as a Playfield. I understand your frustration and in no way was I poking that you didn’t have an issue. I simply shake my head at this point since one issue is overcome and sadly a new one arrives. No hate friend or fun just pointing out why I refrain from looking as I suspect there may be more. Best game ever does not meant lacking in frustration.

Just reading over the past day of posts in this thread currently.

I think it's more the dismissive tone I feel you often take, present, and then make a point over and over again to chime in on each and every time these issues are presented, as if you haven't stated your lesser level of anxiety and concern over these issues.

It's cool you feel the way you do. Most of us would prefer the option of less anxiety, and more play, but clearly people think and feel differently, and what's the point of constantly telling people that feel worried, not to worry?

This is always a great arena to discuss and share viewpoints, differing and agreeable, and I always welcome contrary perspectives. Just at a point...once those are echoed multiple times, they may do more damage than good.

Just my viewpoint. Neither right nor wrong. And I do appreciate and value your perspectives and what you bring to the threads. You seem a well meaning, informed, and valuable person to have around.

#870 12 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Tell my Wife that! lol

Haha!

I've always wondered, is she on the board? And what aspects do each of you do, re regarding mod design and creation?

#875 12 months ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

I compressed the rubber under the double star posts to almost paper thin. I am still using the titans. Have not had one hammer escape and a lot less air balls. I have not probably put in as many games as you. But it was a real problem with the singles. My playfield is compressed like anything underneath, but it’s out of sight!
Good luck!
Are your slings on 16?

So washers compressed/made circles underneath them? Not sure if impressions or flakes are worse.

#878 12 months ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

Does it matter if it leaves an impression under the post? If it’s not tight it’s going to be susceptible to movement from the slings. It’s rubber, so there are no hard edges cutting into the clearcoat.

I meant, like an impression the size of a washer, which is significant. Right now I'm just at ripple stage. And we could argue if it's cracked, does it matter if it's under a starpost.

Ideally no impression or cracking > impression > cracking. I'd say.

#907 12 months ago
Quoted from mtp78:

I received my post repair kit from JJP yesterday, single grove star post and one little and big plastic washer. No instructions yet

Oooh. Can we see?

#910 12 months ago
Quoted from Psw757:

Unreal....this is not exactly what I was told.
I wonder what happened to the soft washer?
Bigger hard Plastic washer under star post will leave a crater.

Hmm. So if this ends up being the case, stick with the Lowe's neoprene washers?

#916 12 months ago

This issue is certainly....sumthin. Not sure as an owner, if I'm more amused, bemused or feeling used! The controversy and the legend of this game....CONTINUES!!!

#958 11 months ago

Thanks to everyone that posted this info. I was waiting on some contact after sending an email the other day.

We all just need to focus on resolving this issue as best we can as owners. The downvotes don't help anyone on either side. We are all frustrated with these issues.

#971 11 months ago
Quoted from ronaldvg:

Sorry but I do not call anybody insain, no need for that. My opinion is just that a pinball machine will never stay in pristine condition. That is not possible. That is why playfields are being reproduced for a lot of old and new games. Every hole, every shooterlane, every point on which the ball falls repeatedly WILL get damaged. That is a fact of life. Otherwise Cliffy would be out of business very soon. And it will be visible. Again: if you think that is not normal than you are in the wrong hobby.
edit: just wanted to add that also where the ball does not physically touches stress can occur of all the things going on on the playfield, just like I pointed out in an earlier post.

Quoted from Psw757:

If we were talking 20 years down the road I may agree.
Many of the owners are experiencing shortly after taking out of box.
That is what is not normal.

I have around 100 plays on mine, have taken every precaution to care for and protect my game, yet still I see the start of ripples.

A routed game 20 years down the road, yes, entirely understandable.

A new home user game, no, this doesn't make sense, and doesn't instill confidence in future purchases.

But.....

That said, JJP has gotten back to my form from last night, and my kit is being sent out. That's great customer service. Even better would be not having to deal with this issue in the first place.

But...we are where we are, and steps are being taken on their front, and that is a definite positive.

#985 11 months ago
Quoted from KingPinGames:

Did you order your game directly from jjp? Just curious as I have not been able get the kits yet.

No. Through Automated. I used the support form to submit my case Friday night. Got a reply early Saturday morning from Steve!

#987 11 months ago

You're welcome.

Any news on when you're getting some Wonka candy action in?

#1164 11 months ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

From the Beatles thread:
[quoted image]
From the TNA thread:
[quoted image]

Jesus christ..

#1172 11 months ago


Quoted from harryhoudini:I have playfield cracks and wear around more than just the slings. This is getting a bit out of hand.
You nay sayers still ok with this?
Looks like to me that someone sanded down this post. I may be wrong, it may have the look for some other reason, but it feels like it and looks like it.
So now what?
Btw, I was tempted to put star posts at the front of the chapter select but I loathe changing games from their original. So I used some black nylon washers just larger than the depression in the playfield. My hopes is that it actually pushes the clear back down flat. I really have no other choice at this point except star posts and rubber washers all around.
And let's not mention the map hole bracket.
Yay, my playfield is falling apart.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

What in the...?!?!?!?

#1178 11 months ago
Quoted from kcZ:

Do you play your game at all?

He seems pretty busy unfuckering his game. I'd imagine he'd like to play, more than repair.

#1230 11 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

There is a piece of protection that does go inside the map hole. It wraps around the backside, held on by the scoop. I still don't think the ball hits the t-nut (the geometry doesn't seem to make sense) and the cliffy probably provides a bit more protection as it sticks away from the back of the hole a small amount.

I'd still trim that tnut.

#1252 11 months ago
Quoted from Soulrider911:

Started the rear down, so far chipping is only in 2 spots that I have found. But more important Che k out how pitted the balls aw and here is why, they have been hitting the exposed t-nut in the map hole. This is getting dremmelled down[quoted image]

I was going to say, that's what I noticed immediately in your photo. Two of my five balls had one or two nicks on them, before I trimmed that tnut. Not nearly that bad.... Those look like actual cannon balls!

1 week later
#1279 11 months ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

You think that is bad? What about this?[quoted image]

What game is that......?

#1281 11 months ago

Ooooh. Okay, thought so! Was worried it was Wonka.

That's awful. I'm really sorry man. And the artwork on that game is so vibrant!

#1289 11 months ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Appears to be getting worse and ain’t pretty under even the ones that are not as bad as slings[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

God that's horrible.... I appreciate the update. I wonder what the best protective measure would be?

This is why I'm paranoid about installing star posts. I fear doing so only could increase the damage area, and wonder if a neoprene washer helps alleviate that or worsen.

#1292 11 months ago
Quoted from Soulrider911:

I would bet a very similar result... soft clearcoat is well... soft, and this is the result of cranking down hardware on clear that is not hard.

Yeah, I'm at the point of, if there's pressure, this will occur. So is spreading more pressure, well across a wider radius, a good thing?

1 week later
#1323 11 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Ugh. Discovered when replacing pop bumpers.
I posted this thread after hearing from more Mirco owners with issues: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/have-you-had-any-issues-with-mirco-playfield-quality-[quoted image]

Jesus christ.... So a massive divot AND a ripple around the radius????

Quoted from paynemic:

I’ll get a pic tomorrow. Thanks. I’m using original posts with smaller diameter washers. Maybe that’s the problem. I went barely past wobble.

Yeah, definitely use single or double star posts.

#1364 10 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

In the apron area, try pressing a finger nail into it. I'd be shocked if it didnt indent. If it does you have basically the same exact clear job. If that machine is a keep for you then I'd send it off to get a professional clear coat job. Please post the finger nail results.

I'd like to see this also.

And for me, if I'd want to use this as a replacement, I wouldn't expose it directly to sun. That's just me though.

#1371 10 months ago
Quoted from 3pinballs:

Will a play field cure under glass or does it have to have the glass off. Mine is February build and just got it 1 month ago has some slight dimpling around posts and has neoprene under posts after 5 plays and only 20 plays on it ...I know 20 plays been super busy

Mine was February as well, had 95 plays as of a few weeks ago. I still had issues.

Quoted from Soulrider911:

Proof is in the pudding, brand new playfield,epic fail on the fingernail test...
To contrast that test, I walked over and did the same test on a Kruzman cleared creature playfield... nothing.[quoted image]

Fuck...

16
#1426 10 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

The notion that JJP is "getting away with shit" as if they engineered this intentionally and are scheming to ruin your experience is what I take issue with.
If you have empathy and see the other side of the issue you will see that they are doing what they can to do right by their customers.

What have they done for me? It's been two weeks now, and no calls about my issue, which was an actual tear of the playfield.

So if I stop contacting them, what becomes of my issue? It doesn't exist for them any longer....meanwhile my game is still damaged, and that directly affects how I feel towards JJP as a company, and also possible resale value.

This game is NOT a toy. A toy is disposable. This is a highly engineered, hand crafted piece of mechanically tuned equipment. A piece of equipment that ideally needs to operate in high condition for years on end, not have issues under 100 plays that affect the very surface of it's most significant contact points.

I've read pinside months before posting, and I've often heard people refer to the playfield as the heart of a pinball machine. Well, I suggest JJP and Mirco see a cardiologist, and course correct issues for their CONSUMERS that are NOT an anomaly or simply a nick on a car.

I'm glad you're happy with your purchases Derek, I really am. You're a pleasant and bright person, and I appreciate your insights and views, but for me, I purchased this "toy" by working overtime multiple days a week, and often layoff days. Buying this game was a substantial life change for me, that affects me seeing people less than I normally would, and ironically even giving me less time to play pinball. That....was my choice, but that choice/my money, as well as everyone's, should be respected as much as I respect JJP and their engineering efforts. At this point, this level of respect does not feel reciprocal, as I have been ignored, not valued.

So not a pitchfork raised, a customer highly disappointed.

#1443 10 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

FYI, Jack replied with a positive note. Waiting to hear more.

I hope it mentioned grabbing milk on the way home, or that he congratulated you on an excellent report card!

On a serious note, I hope this issue is handled more upfront, acknowledging the issues openly and transparently that have occurred, and with gestures to improve the current feelings of customers affected by these issues in a way that feels respectful, not vexing or insulting.

1 week later
#1518 10 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Is email inherently confident? There was no confidence implied or expressed, but I feel sort of bad pasting my conversation verbatim. Needless to say, nothing of any real material interest to the discussion here was said. If it ends up being fruitful I'll post both sides of the conversation but I want to wait and see if anything comes from my reply. JJP is being given a lot of softballs to hit out of the park here, lets see if they take a swing.

I'd say it is, unless given explicit intent by either party to share/divulge exchanges. Forums are different, though private messages the same as a personal letter.

I'd say you can definitely share facets/a summary of progress towards your goal.

I'm just feeling overall, that with Wonka their current step forward, and Pirates not presently being on the line, this might be a dead issue/bad memory for JJP, and anyone that's had notable playfield issues, has had their replacement offer made at $550 plus shipping.

To me, given the individual case, that doesn't feel acceptable.

#1520 10 months ago
Quoted from TomT:

There are probably more than just a few potential Wonka buyers on the fence waiting to see how they handle this and future Wonka playfield issues.

I know I'm one of them!

#1522 10 months ago
Quoted from Psw757:

Wonka wasn’t for me but I told those guys if they don’t fix this they won’t see another purchase from me ever.
The issue compounds itself when you start losing repeat customers.
Replacement PF’s will potentially only be a minor loss depending on how many future orders they lose.
It’s not like they have to replace every PF built.

For me, consider. There's always that impulse urge with a new table. I wouldn't rule it out for myself, but I'd still want to buy their first three game first.

So yes, before I consider that, I need resolution here. If I don't get that, well....I really don't need to own these games. Some degree of my own self respect is better for me than unresolved issues with a manufacturer that doesn't respect my loyalty/money/time/passion.

#1528 10 months ago
Quoted from Psw757:

He lies the problem...
Several of us have physically spoken to either Jack or Frank and they claim this isn’t a widespread issue and is rather isolated so to speak.
If this is the case replacing PF’s certainly puts nothing at risk.
If mirco is partly at fault here there should be shared responsibility in correcting this.
I don’t like the lack of transparency and lack of action with what is going on.
Speaks volumes about JJP in my opinion.

And by several of us, I'm really guessing under 10.

I'd like to buy three more JJP games in the next year and a half. I can only do so in good conscience, if I feel valued as a customer, my money and time respected. No differently than any transaction or exchange in life.

10
#1559 10 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

- The existing offer for a discounted playfield is a reasonable compromise

For me personally, this doesn't feel reasonable, solution wise.

Let's guess that these playfields cost JJP $400-500. If damage has occurred with normal use, well under a year of use, that definitely feels like an issue that should be covered under warranty. That's what a warranty exists for.

At the very least, with signs of ripples/chips around any posts, the cost for JJP should be halved. As in the customer pays $200-250, and receives free shipping. If that was the initial option, and expressed clearly, say via a twitter feed, facebook post, email newsletter, notifying all owners of said issue, and how customers could repair damage via a claim, then I feel many would be far less irked.

For damages past chipping or ripples, a replacement playfield, unpopulated, could be offered.

Quoted from zaphX:

And that is exactly why I'm against torches and pitchforks for JJP. They got caught in this like everyone did, and they are at least providing a workaround and replacement program.

I think the issue is a lack of transparency on this issue to begin with, customers having to notify JJP after many months of this occurring, and then no contact directly from JJP to their customers in attempts to resolve this issue.

With minor parts, JJP is very responsive. With this issue, unless you make consecutive calls, and emails, nothing is changing on the customer's end, and that's incredibly disheartening and disappointing as a current, and wishing to be future customer.

I think that's pretty rationally expressed, no?

#1570 10 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

The narrow posts with the sharp edge caused the defective playfield to chip and crack around those specific posts while other posts mainly pool up the clear because they are not sharp.

I'd have to think no matter what posts they use, massive amounts of vibration and force from playing, combined with this soft clear, are creating this issue on any and every point of impact on this playfield.

#1573 10 months ago
Quoted from Psw757:

That is my post pictured there and believe it or not, they were all like that except 1 single post.
The Wonka I played was less than two weeks old and just about every single post star or skinny was sunken into the clear with varying degrees of rippling.

Ugh....

I do wonder where things will be in months, IF Wonka has the same issues.

At that point, JJP would very much need to publicly address this, as then you'd have Pirates, Wonka, and future title owners concerned.

If this is solely a Pirates issue, I don't think much movement past what's been offered, will occur.

#1579 10 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Here's an album I put together of only my machine to share with Jack.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/CVuJheFjQJhTMD5A9
These two are my favorite. But check out the album, sort of like a "greatest hits" of crap I had to fix. But sure, I should buy another playfield
[quoted image][quoted image]

Sad to say, I bet this is why Wonka is a shadow of Pirates. Cruddy QC aside, the complexity of one game is classic JJP, the other Stern Pro....Plus.

Absolutely awful issues here.

#1583 10 months ago
Quoted from VillaThrills:

Just wanted to thank Harry for going down the rabbit hole with JJP. As I shared with him, I went down the same path he did. Original owner, registered the day I got it, reported issues within 30 days, cracking at both slings on a new $9500 game back in October/November of last year. All of the staff saw the pics. Jack himself told me that is just pinball and offered nothing. I offered to buy a new playfield at cost and was turned down. Hate to say it but I will not buy new again. Between JJP quality issues and Stern code, it just doesn’t make sense to jump in. Glad others will, more power to you and I truly wish you luck.

Jesus.....

And they never resolved any of this, since?

What's the point of buying a nearly 10K machine to have so many issues corrupting it???

#1588 10 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

No ties. I'm just empathetic. They are a growing business, and setbacks like this can be catastrophic.
If the playfield was sanding off everywhere, I'd be more upset. So far it's localized to the posts which can be hidden from view, so I'm ok with it. Not thrilled mind you, obviously all we want solid playfields, but I can deal.
I honestly believe the folks at JJP want to do right by their customers and want them to be happy.
I do believe their playfield offer is a reasonable one, but we disagree on that point and that's fine.
I also think you catch more flies with honey than with legal threats (which immediately shut any company down and put them into defense mode.)

I don't agree, feel that legal action will resolve this issue or course correct it.

I do feel me not buying another game of theirs though, will.

I can do that, far easier than the $9500 I had to earn to buy this game.

To my knowledge, this isn't the start up company it once was, in some capacity. Jack is now the Founder, the Owner is Leonard Abess.

https://www.pinballnews.com/news/jerseyjack8.html

He's no slouch, and neither are his two partner investors.

He's also been kind to his employees, when he needn't be.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-13/this-banker-emerged-from-the-collapse-a-billionaire-hero

I do feel though, that as people that are not employees, but customers, asking simply to be made whole, which translates to possibly a $400 loss per affected customer, is a very, very reasonable think to ask for.

I don't feel anyone at JJP should suffer for my benefit or gain, but I do feel that me buying a high level leisure/gratuitous purchase/toy, should not find me in such a quandary months into ownership.

This process should be fun, not painful.

#1594 10 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I guess the impedance mismatch here is that I am ok "meeting them halfway" because I want them to keep making great pinball machines. Not everyone in the thread is. I do respect your opinions and emotions on the issue.
I strongly suspect the $550 playfield offer is cost. If they were to give those free, to all 1000 buyers, that is a $550k loss.
I'm sure we all agree what a great game POTC is, otherwise everyone would be dumping them and moving on.
Do you want to make the best pinball game made in the last decade a complete financial failure for them?

Do we want to have the best pinball game in the last decade be torn apart at every post within the next five years?

We all know, not even close to 1000 people have had an issue to the degree some have. Let's say it's 100 games. At 100 games, even at $550 equals $55000. If even just 6 out of those 100 buyers, refuse to buy another JJP game due to this significant issue, then they've already lost.....

Lost sales>>>>>>>not even dozens of playfields.

#1598 10 months ago
Quoted from Psw757:

Ideally a free replacement would be nice however I’m getting tired of talking with them about this, been 3+ months of nothing so just trying to find some middle ground.
Believe me, I’m not happy and won’t buy anything from them in the future. Done.

Well, as it stands, then two out of those six customers.

I told both Jack and Mike from Automated in February that I was serious about buying the first four games, and would change my lifestyle to do so. I got calls back from them very quickly. Now.......not so much.

So right there, that's 3 tables from me, and possibly one from Psw757

Where's the gain here for JJP?

I know for me, that's a gain of $25-27,000 back in my account over the next two years.

#1601 10 months ago
Quoted from Psw757:

So....you really must feel sorry for JJP I guess, very high level of empathy to do such a thing.

I think the empathy pool needs to be focused here, with fellow users.

Ultimately, does money in our bank accounts, and feeling more comfort than pain from pleasure bound purchases, matter less?

I'm guessing no investors, owners, etc, are fretting as much about their pins and lifestyles, as much as we do on a daily basis.

That's not to say pitchforks should be raised, but without customers, these companies don't exist. So yes, the idea of wanting these pinball manufacturers to continue onward is a very lovely idea, but so is them doing so hand in hand along with us, valuing their customers' issues, rather than ignoring/turning a blind eye to them.

This has not been proactive on their part, and I don't feel good about that.

#1613 10 months ago
Quoted from EaglePin:

I haven't posted my experience with chipping yet but I think with the activity today it might be useful to share so people can form opinions based on more information. In fact, before all the activity in the thread today I had a conversation with someone at work telling them about my chipping issue, and in that conversation I mentioned to the person that there had been a lot of activity on Pinside about the playfield cracking issue in the past month or so but I prefer to keep my interactions with JJP private to give them a chance to work through it and respond to me. Also in that conversation I said I understand my issue is out of the warranty period so I know they don't have an obligation to do anything about it, however ALL I EVER ASKED FROM THEM FROM THE BEGINNING WAS THE QUESTION "WHAT DO THEY RECOMMEND DOING TO LAY THE CHIP DOWN AND MINIMIZE THE CHANCE OF IT SPREADING SO I CAN RESUME PLAYING MY MACHINE?" I don't think that's an unreasonable ask. I just want to take their recommended approach to the chip and then get back to playing my machine.
It wasn’t until my 2nd follow-up call in 4 weeks of no responses that they did anything, and that was to reach out to the playfield manufacturer for ideas. I have been very patient with them to give them time to provide even just minimal assistance with this straightforward question, but it just has not happened. IT'S BEEN 6 WEEKS NOW SINCE MY FIRST PHONE CONVERSATION WITH THEM AND THEY'VE HAD NO RESPONSE TO WHAT I THINK SHOULD BE A QUESTION THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO ANSWER - "WHAT DO YOU RECOMMEND DOING TO LAY THE CHIP DOWN SO I CAN GET BACK TO PLAYING MY MACHINE?" People on Pinside might have ideas about what to do, but I want advice from JJP since it's their business and their product.
Seeing the activity in the forum today has made me rethink my patience, so here goes:
Bottom line is that I do realize the terms of the warranty are against me. While I understand and accept that fact I'm still very, very disappointed that it's been over 6 weeks with no response to my question. I understand how they handle my and other people's issues are business decisions and they're free to make their choices. I also understand that their choices influence my future purchases (and there will be future purchases), so I'll be making a different choice when it comes to which manufacturer I buy the next machine from.
For me that's what it really comes down to is choices made by both sides and how each side feels about the choices made by the other. I'm not happy they've chosen to not provide a response to a very straightforward question on my issue. I'm not happy that the foundation of the game (the playfield) had an issue within well less than a year of ownership. I gritted my teeth and bought the replacement playfield in case this chip eventually gets worse or some other issues pop up, and I'm not happy they chose to have me pay shipping for the replacement playfield. The impression I've formed through my conversations with them is that it sounded to me like JJP is just outsourcing the playfield with nobody on JJP staff who has enough of an understanding of the playfield painting process or chemistry to know how that playfield is made or what could cause issues with the art and clear coat lifting, let alone having ideas on how to lay a chip back down. My impression is their staff is just more focused on the mechanical and electronic aspects of the games and they just blindly rely on their playfield supplier. My impressions may be incorrect, but it's what I've been left with after 6 weeks of nothing but a few mostly empty phone conversations.
It’s a shame really because the game itself is really so amazing with fun shots and features. But right now I have no confidence JJP can provide good service or make sure the foundations of their games (the playfields) are built to last one year, let alone several years, so I don’t imagine I’ll be interested in picking up another one of their games for many years. Again, they can choose to operate and provide service however they see fit, and I can choose to base my future purchases on how I feel about that.
Everyone's entitled to their own opinions but my opinion is that my machine should not have this type chip on the playfield inside of a year and, since it does, JJP should be able to give advice in less than 6 weeks on how to lay it down so I can move on to continue playing pinball. I also think it's interesting that the other machine I own is a used STTNG (originally from 1994) I purchased at the same time as my JJPPOTC and the STTNG playfied is excellent with no restorations that I'm aware of outside regular cleaning and waxing. For a machine that apparently has a bit of a reputation about maintenance issues, my STTNG has been better than my NIB JJPPOTC.
Again, I only post this to relay my experience so others can make their own decisions and form their own opinions about JJP's handling of a playfield issue even when the only thing JJP is being asked for is some advice.
Here's the timeline of my contact with JJP on this:
1) In late May I did a cleaning on my machine and discovered a chip with the art and clear coat lifting near the base of the movable post in front of the "I" lane. I had never moved the post and nothing except a pinball had touched it since it was delivered.
2) I'm the original owner of my machine. When my game was delivered in December I read the warranty terms and I registered my machine within 5 days of purchase. The game has been home use only. I understand the game is out of the warranty period but I contacted them because I thought they could provide help by offering a suggestion as to how best to lay the chip down to prevent future spreading and continue playing.
3) On finding the chip I immediately stopped playing the machine. After a couple weeks I got around to sending an e-mail to JJP with pictures of the chip. My e-mail said only the following: "I’ve seen that a fix kit is being issued for chipping issues at the sling posts on POTC. On my machine I have a chip lifting up at the base of the movable post near the “I” lane, even though I have never moved the post. Will the kit being issued also work on this “I” lane post? Also, can you recommend the best way to repair the chip and prevent further lifting? Should I glue it down or put Mylar over it (or do you recommend something else be done)? Attached are pictures of the chip. I’d really appreciate any advice you can give me."
4) Out of concern my e-mail might not be received, I called. Good thing I did because it turned out my e-mail had gone to their spam folder and was unseen. The phone conversation was mostly just gathering facts about the problem and there wasn't any real course of action laid out at the end of it, so I gave it a few days.
5) Three days later I called again just to get a better idea of what the course of action was going to be to resolve my question which, again, was essentially "What would someone at JJP do to lay down the chip and try to prevent further spreading if their machine had this issue?" I was told they'd check with people involved with production and they'd get back to me. Meanwhile I'd read on Pinside that a replacement playfield could be purchased, so, although I wished I didn't think it was a good idea, I asked to purchase one in case a patch for this chip didn't hold well and/or other issues popped up in the future. I paid their asking price plus shipping. I explained I still would like an answer to my question about how best to lay the chip down, but that I'm getting the replacement playfield in the event things get worse down the road or new issues pop up.
6) Two weeks later I hadn't heard anything, so I called to follow up. I had to explain my issue again, and then was told they hadn't heard anything from the people in the production area. Then I was asked what I expect to get out of this call. I said I understand is it's a 30-day warranty and I'm outside that, but what I'd like is just an answer to the question "What would someone at JJP do to lay down the chip and try to prevent further spreading if their machine had this issue?" I was told that yes, I definitely deserve a response to that question and they'll work to get one.
7) Another two weeks later I hadn't heard a peep, so I called again. I was put through exactly the same conversation as two weeks prior, even including the "Nobody in production has responded" and "What do you expect to get out of this call?" comments. I said again I understand my machine is out of warranty and JJP has no obligation to do anything, but I'd really appreciate it if someone could be my advocate on the question of "What would someone at JJP do to lay the chip down and try to prevent further spreading?" Again I was told I deserve an answer to my question and was told they might have to reach out to the manufacturer for advice on it, and they said give it a day and they'll get back to me. At the end of the next day I received an e-mail that they had reached out to the manufacturer.
5 days later I received an e-mail saying the manufacturer is on holiday. It's now been another 5 days since then and 6 weeks total since my first phone call with no answer to the question, "What should I do to lay the chip down and try to prevent future spreading of it?"[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Jesus christ....

This is worthy of it's own thread.

Sounds very akin to my experience.

Frank, who has always been very patient and pleasant to speak with, regarding repairing my tear, that that wasn't his speciality. I understood.

Weeks later, no followup call from anyone at JJP that COULD actually help me repair my tear.

So, we make games, but can't give advice repairing them, or actually help give you resources with no cost for you, to repair them. Excellent....

So now we're at....at least...three Pirates owners not buying past, current or future pins.

#1638 10 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Do you recall off hand what you dialed them down to? Mine seem ok but every little bit can't hurt as a precaution. Thanks.

I ended up dropping mine to the lowest possible. Not sure if that's 12 or lower. I figure if post impact and stress is part of the issue, why not lower it completely. It's not like the hammer is *poofing* the sling gently.

#1647 10 months ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

I think he's reading the Jurassic Park 2 thread. I heard they're renaming it "A dark night for JJP..."

I was thinking that earlier, how this could cut into Wonka sales.

Can't believe I'm saying this, but the art looks more fun, layout more intriguing, and theme more effectively used than Wonka.

#1653 10 months ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

You're saying this in a POTC thread?

Stern and JJP are closer than we thought with those two games.

#1654 10 months ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

Not so sure about that, Wonka has the main actors from the movie in the artwork, clips from the movie on the LCD and callouts from the film. At this early stage the rumours are that Stern's Jurassic Park will not use any clips from the film and, from the pics we have seen, only one of the actors in the movie appears in the artwork.

I guess I mean as in the spirit of the theme. I feel like there is certainly audio, character visuals, and some callouts, but the execution of Wonka, for me, doesn't feel as structured, joyful, or playful as it could have been.

We will see....!

#1657 10 months ago
Quoted from EaglePin:

It stinks you had to go through that, and it stinks that issues with quality well beyond tweaks &amp; fixes seem to have happened across different games and different years. It seems like the level of issues on the new machines goes beyond what a customer should really have to expect, and for the cost of these machines I don't think it's unreasonable to expect at least a little bit better build going out the door. I'm new to pinball ownership and I understand that these are machines and things will break or need adjusting, and that some tweaks, adjustments, &amp; fixes might be needed on a new game. I get it. I have a ton of dimpling on my playfield and I've had to make tweaks, adjustments, and fixes to my POTC like everyone else. I've accepted it all, dealt with it, and continued playing. But when my playfield chips like this I think it's reasonable to expect the manufacturer to be able to offer advice on how to lay the chip down and minimize the risk of it spreading.
It now really seems to me like the company has a built-in tolerance &amp; culture for shipping products without really trying to tighten up the quality issues, trusting that the "it's pinball" mentality will prevail and customers will tolerate it because they like the games. From a story like yours and now with the POTC playfield issue it seems they talk a good game about quality &amp; support but unless it's just a minor issue they can address at little cost they're going to hide behind their very limited warranty term... except in my case where remarkably they've had 6 weeks where all they had to do was just respond with some advice which wouldn't have even cost them $1, yet they've still been unable to deliver any response. They're also charging shipping on the replacement playfields. Whatever someone thinks about whether or not the price of their replacement playfield offer is reasonable, I'd hope a vast majority of people would think the company should at least pick up the shipping cost on it. But they chose not to and that, along with their lack of response to my issue, leaves an impression with me.
Again, I went into my purchase with full knowledge about the warranty period &amp; terms and they can choose to make whatever business decisions they want about how they respond to my issue and others. After this 6 weeks of silence I'll be making a different choice on the manufacturer of the next game I buy. And I'll say again my biggest surprise out of this is my impression that they don't seem to have anyone on staff who could answer a straightforward question about how to address a chip on the playfield. It's the foundation of their game and I'm guessing in general it's usually a lot more costly &amp; time consuming to fix a playfield than a mechanical or electrical issue, yet they don't seem to have any information about it. Whatever other quality issues may go out the door on a new machine, I'd expected that a pinball machine manufacturer would have good working knowledge about playfields but that doesn't seem to be the case here. Otherwise I think I would have received a response by now.

They sorely need a public affairs person. Someone to represent them via media tweets, emails subscribers, moderator of their own forum, and deliver statements regarding issues like this.

There is zero transparency with these issues. They come out via customer complaints, and then are somewhat acknowledged in almost a hidden way by JJP.

Their public relations and service components are very, very poor, considering how stellar their products are designed. They excel at design, have fumbles in production, and then entirely have barely any reliable or reassuring customer relations department. Frank, Steve and LTG are always fantastic and kind, but these are technical agents. JJP needs media and consumer based representation on a level they currently don't have in place.

#1661 10 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Jen has been listed as their PR person in several places.

Exactly my point.

She was very kind, polite, and courteous when my friend and I stopped in a year ago, but she can only handle so much, and maybe not a direct relative is better in that role. An expanded role, to complement what she does. One that could monitor forums like this actively, play a part in threads, create company based and game based threads, and also deal directly and aggressively with customer issues.

This is not effective presently. And for an internationally shipped product that is entirely a gratuitous home user focused product, this needs to be drastically improved. I wouldn't accept this degree of haphazard correspondence from any other manufacturer producing goods over $100.

#1663 10 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Last I checked which is rare JJP Did have a customer forum that Jen had setup. Not sure how a customer joins as I never found the need but curious if anyone here tried to communicate via the portal they already had designed specifically for their products and customers. Again I could be wrong but I believe that might be a better window to speak through. I know if I had a corporation an enthusiast forum is the last place I would field complaints. Might see if this option is open?

You are correct in that! It's an email joined, google based forum, from what I've seen of it. I'll get emails every day or so from users with issues, discussing them. Feels less structured than here, and also the lack of outside pinball enthusiasts being able to chime in, makes me feel that an outside lens isn't wanted. For me that feels like behavior and viewpoints might be a bit curtailed or stunted from users, on account of it being more private.

I think every manufacturer should be posting official threads on Pinside, for every game.

This would make direct consumer relations transparent, immediate, and reflective that these companies care with a direct hands on approach.

Popping into threads occassionally, isn't enough to satisfy and quell these issues. API does a pretty effective job on the forums, but every company still needs massive improvement. One person, could effectively manage such a position per company. Community management could be very, very easily handled.

#1668 10 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

I’m sorry but this really doesn’t make sense?? A percentage of you Want direct contact and communication with JJP personnel but you won’t join a group Purposely created to share your thoughts because it lacks Enthusiasts? You don’t need a room full of cheer leaders you Need the ear of the company! They created that very place?! Venting anger about why they are not listening or coming to our playground to be bullied seems fruitless to be honest. Yes API did this a Lot in the beginning as a start up with one game but they had to! You may have also noticed they Rarely do so any longer and Always refer you to communicate Directly to them for support. That is smart business!! Airing dirty laundry in a permanent open public forum is business suicide! Not telling you or others what to do but if you Believe you are not being fairly treated Go to the place they provided to communicate your concerns! Asking them to come fight in a forum parking lot is Never going to happen. I promise.

Umm. Err.... Uuuuuh.

Yanno, I've talked directly to just about everyone involved at JJP besides Jen, oddly enough.

Jack.
Frank.
Steve.
Lloyd.
Butch.
Eric.
Pat.
Shannon
And actually Jen in person too.

For a fairly small company, I've met maybe most of the folks in it, excluding Leonard and his assistant. (Probably the two people I need MOST to speak with.)

To varying degrees, I've spoken directly to the top six of those people, regarding issues I've had from day one, or weeks/months later.

If I can't make headway, and wish upon a star, to have issues fixed, exactly how can that occur then Dave?

Since I bought this game, I wake up and wonder if the situations with it will improve. Daily. I doubt the folks at JJP are feeling as concerned about my daily mood as I am, but I don't affect their daily lives.

But I should just suck it up, I guess.

That forum is less effective than this one, trust me.

That said, if I just suck it up, and acknowledge that pinball is even at delivery, inherently broke, than do you know what I'm going to do.....about pinball?

Not. Buy. Another.

I need pinball less than pinball needs me. But pinball does need me, and other satisfied buyers, rather than endless sycophants (By this I mean anyone, which seems like most owners, that tolerate this crap.) that accept issues that god forbid, they wouldn't from an auto manufacturer. Which, aside these games, no other major purchase I've made in my life, even comes close.

#1669 10 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Clearly this thread has proven We are the only ones reading.

If we've talked to them in person, via email or a phone call. They know.

Difference is, do they care?

I'd say no, if offering at cost plus shipping, is their best resolution to this playfield issue.

And if that is accurate. Again, that is okay. My money can go elsewhere.

#1675 10 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Ok I guess I give? I simply asked if either of you Tried to use Their forum and you say “it’s less effective then this one” yet you Never Tried it! I do trade shows for a living. I meet Thousands of people and clients at each event. Do you know how many I remember that evening? None! You tried email and voicemails and it clearly didn’t work. I suggested another Viable option to help but that won’t ever work because you Assume it won’t work? I too have met every person in that factory and all were absolutely wonderful (except LTG! Lol) and guess what, I will bet not one of them remember me as I one of 10000 hands they shook that year. Nuff said, just wanted to Try and help. Time to call #LTG and see how Prada is doing.

This has minimal engagement on the google forum, and less active users.

Screenshot_20190723-221103_Chrome (resized).jpgScreenshot_20190723-221157_Chrome (resized).jpgScreenshot_20190723-221202_Chrome (resized).jpg
#1679 10 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Ok I guess I give? I simply asked if either of you Tried to use Their forum and you say “it’s less effective then this one” yet you Never Tried it! I do trade shows for a living. I meet Thousands of people and clients at each event. Do you know how many I remember that evening? None! You tried email and voicemails and it clearly didn’t work. I suggested another Viable option to help but that won’t ever work because you Assume it won’t work? I too have met every person in that factory and all were absolutely wonderful (except LTG! Lol) and guess what, I will bet not one of them remember me as I one of 10000 hands they shook that year. Nuff said, just wanted to Try and help. Time to call #LTG and see how Prada is doing.

Either you want work with JJP directly, or should get it. At least we can engage with you frequently on here Dave.

I remember reading, yearsssss ago, Jack used to post on here.

#1683 10 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Funny you say that after posting your links to there forum. I counted Several company replies even from Jack himself! Want to know how many replies are in this thread from JJP? 0

Yes, one. About warranties. Two by Frank, one by Ted Estes.

Not volumes by any means.

This man Jack. And this other man....Frank. yes, their names........sound familiar. Because I've written to, and called them directly.

They know.

My issue is NOT in them not being aware. It's in them NOT caring.

#1689 10 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Not necessarily nor will I hate on something because someone else doesn’t enjoy it. Don’t believe in following only gets you to the back of the horse. I was however Trying to suggest another means to communicate which was determined a fail yet nobody tried it? I would do this for any company or individual but you can’t make anyone drink as they say. Guess we can just wait till Jack and Gary Stern decide to just go to the forum to work out complaints. Any day now...

Who's hating on any of these products??? We've spent nearly ten grand on at least one of their games. Man, I'd LOVE someone to hate me in such a fashion.....

From what seems to be public knowledge Gary and Jack aren't even the owners of either company any longer.

Lemme talk to Leonard Abess Jr. I've heard he's very relatable from articles I've read. He could help, maybe...?

#1691 10 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Guess we can just wait till Jack and Gary Stern decide to just go to the forum to work out complaints. Any day now...

I mentioned, Jack used to post on here, early on in the WoZ days. I'd wager when he needed direct support while building the brand.

Now, not so much. He's got bigger fish to fry I guess. I know he's traveling a shit ton internationally and domestically to promote Wonka.

Talking on here directly with customers that have issues is great promotion too!

#1697 10 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Yeah he was definitely the Ron Popeal of sales back then. Last I heard though he wasn’t the company decision maker any longer mostly the name and spokesmen for sales? Curious for you, did you ever reach out to you distributor? The ones I work with (granted I don’t beat them with every concern) helped me instantly with resolutions and taking care of the red tape along with always keeping me updated on any purchased game change or update. Just hope you gave all resources a try. Some work, some don’t at times.

Giving you my personal dirty details in a PM when I get home here from work.......and have a beer.

Quoted from zaphX:

I’m a JJP zealot for trying to get people to put down the pitchforks and use some logic, heh. OK. So be it.
Another pinball friend emailed me today and said I’ll never win over the pinside lynch mob. He’s right.
This thread is the equivalent of a political rally, bunch of people shouting loudly without using their heads.

Nah, it's not that Derek. It's just wanting to be made whole. 10K toy with defects, doesn't make people happy. Not when hands are sat on, calls never returned, emails not replied to.

But.....if I wanted to buy another game!

Quoted from solarvalue:

Some of you guys are new here, so I'll excuse you. If you had any idea how JJP, Stern and Spooky employees were treated when they were on here you would understand why they no longer contribute. Believe me, it has nothing to with being too busy.

I am newer here, and I do recall some messages that weren't amiable towards Jack. But I can only speak for myself, and how I ideally try to relate with others, directly or indirectly. But being here, being at shows, all of that is necessary, and that's part of a public brand and business. Not everything is ideal. I know that now as a pinhead.

#1718 10 months ago
Quoted from Soulrider911:

Quite the debate going on here, I have to side with harryhoudini and eaglepin on this one

It's not even about sides. It's about companies, one's very proud of being American made, caring about and extending any and every effort possible to make their customers feel valued, whole, and wishing them to be continued customers.

I have no ill will towards anyone debating a different viewpoint. I just don't understand what it gains anyone, as high paying customers, to do so.

We all clearly adore JJP games. That's not the issue. The issue is how JJP has rectified/not rectified damage to their product via very normal use.

Let's remember the very first Pirates still wasn't even sold at this point a year ago.

We're all in this together. Love of JJP, and....disappointment.

#1748 10 months ago

Just woke up after a night post work of reading and posting about this for hours, then drinking beer to relax the worries away for a bit....

25 replies.

Time to bury my head back into the pillow more before my alarm.

#1752 10 months ago

Thought about the situation a bit, and here's what I feel would be fair to all parties involved.

In an attempt to be transparent, JJP acknowledges and addresses whatever the issues might have been publicly, whether it's employee training, poor end line quality control checks, Mirco sending either low level or poorly manufactured playfields, or a combination of all of the above.

At that point customers within one year of ownership, present photos of damage, and within those photos, price points for a new playfield are determined.

Let's say three tiers.

Tier 1: Beginning of/definable ripples on any posts of apparatus on the playfield.

$300, and shipped for free.

Tier 2: Chipped areas around posts or any apparatus on the playfield.

$200, and shipped for free.

Tier 3: Ripples, chips, tears, damage past and including tier 1.

$0, and shipped for free.

Assuming $550 is the baseline of cost for JJP, if not even a bit lower, and the customer would already be responsible for swapping the playfield entirely, I feel this tier structure would be more than fair to JJP.

None of us with damage, wish JJP ill will, financial loss, or any other damage. We also don't want damage to our own games within such a brief period of ownership, and I feel a transparent statement, and offer, would do a great deal of goodwill for all involved.

Thoughts?

#1756 10 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I am, I have, and honestly I apologize to everyone on the thread.
These machines do represent substantial investments for all of us.
The chipping is real, and it sucks for everyone involved (including the manufacturers.)
I was able to get over it since mine was hideable with star posts, but others might not be so lucky if their damage is worse.
My initial goal with my protests was to try and encourage a spirit of compromise. I'm sorry that I've strayed from that.
I do hope the issues are resolved in a way that bring everyone peace and enjoyment with their machines.

You know what's really sad Derek?

I read this, and thought..."man, if only Jack came out and stated something akin to this. That would feel really good!"

I think for one day (entirely joking here) you should change your username to Jersey Jacques or Florida Leonardo, just to give us all some peaceful delusion and closure.

I don't feel anyone wants to be a villain here, either to damaged owners or JJP. We can all agree on that.

I do feel, it's unreasonable to ask damaged customers to pay for damage we weren't at fault for. It's akin for a warranty issue coming up for a car, and we get a repair bill along with it.

This is frustrating for us all. You've had many issues as well, and I understand you feeling like it's behind you, feels better closure wise, than battling on a forum, or with JJP on some level. That's fair, and I can only speak for myself, but these arguments and situations with this game, aren't fun for me either.

I have no answers. JJP does. And if they choose to not come forward with answers I feel are acceptable, then my only answer for myself, is to divorce myself from future ownership in the brand.

#1767 10 months ago
Quoted from cosmokramer:

So, you mean just make sure you pop off a piece of art before you make the claim....
Free replacement!

Well...I'm trying to think of ideas. Not my business, just my purchase. And ideally JJP would be having this discussion openly, guiding our frustrations down an easier, and less vexing path for all.

Also, the art seems to fly off by itself at times. Trust me, I know.

And really, no one is going to make a bundle with false claims, and reselling on the pinball black market. I think we all just want to feel whole, and not buggered.

#1774 10 months ago
Quoted from Reznnate:

Angry customers should deal with &lt;insert pin company here&gt; directly. You may be disappointed with the outcome, but it's the best approach.
Mentioning lawyers will cause non-constructive behavior from any company. Their lawyers guide them to say nothing and disengage.
Rallying community tiki torches is somewhere in the middle, but I still suggest direct engagements since individual machines and circumstances (environment, shipping, use) vary.
Expecting a &lt;$50 fix-kit seems reasonable. Expecting any pinball-sized company to absorb (up-to 1000's of) populated playfields is not reasonable. Particularly for cosmetic chips or dents or dimples, it's REALLY irritating, but it's just not reasonable.

Any of us that are outspoken, have spoken quite a bit directly with JJP. The $550 offer is the end result of that.

So.....what next?

#1777 10 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Certified letters going out Friday. Sign up if you haven't.

I still have to give it a reread, and talk to Frank, then come to a conclusion. My first offday is Friday...

I was specifically curious as to what
Reznnate would suggest.

For me, I'm just considering the more important, impactful decision I can make, to cease being a customer.

#1780 10 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

I don't know WHY anyone would be against signing a letter that says we're unhappy with the situation and would like a better result. I think it's important that company ownership know the issue and since we are unclear if Jack is truly a decision maker it only makes sense to try and reach out to the people who may be. At least the people who stand to profit from our unfortunate situation.
Companies are not in business to impress customers. They are in business to make money for their investors. If you do not impress your investors they don't support you and give you money. As savvy business owner makes profit for their investors the best way they know how. This choice is the best way JJP knows how to make the most profit. Our concern is not with their profit necessarily, it is with our fair shake at a situation where we have been wronged. JJP needs to realize they stand to make more profit in the long run if customers are satisfied with their service.
The plant will grow the direction the sun shines. If the sun changes position, the plant does too. If we can shine the light in a different direction JJP will need to grow in that direction. As a community and patrons we can only show our intent by inviting the company to grow in that direction. If we do not change the direction of the sun then the plant will have no reason to change direction. If profits aren't potentially compromised due to potentially lower sales and upset customers what will affect the plant?
What backlash will JJP be able to provide if you sign a letter with only vaguely strong wording? Will you not get a special deal that the rest of us won't? Maybe. Will you be blackballed from JJP? Seriously? There is no way for them to stop us. You can find a way to order parts. You can get a game from someone else. JJP has no hold over you except the thin veil of retribution and complete collapse. Shit, go buy a playfield and sign the letter. Best of everything. If they prevent you from getting a playfield that speaks HUGE volumes, but they won't.

I agree with most of this in theory.

Above all though, I don't want to feel like a dumb street whore.

If I don't get treated, valued the way I feel I should be treated and valued. I'm gone.

If I have to go to such measures, just to be heard, valued, recognized, why on earth do I even want to consider a future connection with a company like that?

I shouldn't have to force change. I feel I am here though.

So for me, I feel more like being the catalyst of change, that equals change. I can put 4 quarters of change in a game here and there, versus 38,000.....quarters all up front.

Maybe I put 4 in, and don't give a god damn shit about a post, a chip, a bad flipper. Never did as a teen, (though those issues don't seem as prominent on older games) but I do now.

Maybe home ownership is the issue.

#4atatime

(Twitter is so retarded.)

#1781 10 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

In complete transparency I have ordered a playfield. I can't justify not doing this with fear there may be no other offer and playfields run out, offer changes, redacted, etc. Not suggesting anyone do anything, not suggesting I don't believe we are due something more appropriate to the situation but I continue to support JJP. I have placed order after order with them, my card is on file, they charge it without me doing anything. Shannan knows me. I just spent TWICE the price of a part that is not their part, another manufacturer unrelated to pinball makes it, I bought that part to simply swap and come to find out there is proprietary information/code that JJP won't share to make this screen work. So? I sent back the screen and ordered from JJP. I ordered a replacement for my broken Maelstrom ramp. I ordered a set of decals and plastics. I ordered a 2nd opto so I could replace both when one was broken by the VUK issue.
I'm transparent.

Well that's.......................weird.

#1783 10 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Why? Jack said no. As far as we know that is the official stance from the company, why would that change?
I don't believe it's right, I don't want to stop my efforts but I also fit the requirements for the replacement and if I don't take this offer there may be no other offer. I don't believe this should show any complacency with their response and I would think ANY rational person would believe that should JJP change their stance that anyone who paid for a playfield and fit the requirements to receive it would be compensated in the exact same manner any other affected owner was. Am I wrong?
I mean, I just bought the 3 WOZ playfields for $500 to fix my chipped and broken playfields. What are my other options? Sure as fack can't easily repair POTC playfields and what's to say if JJP runs out (didn't we know they were going to produce 1500 games but only had parts for 1000?)? Will they make more to meet the demand? I think this is something that could be questionable.
Will the number of people who redeem this offer indicate how many are actually having issues? It's a thought.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/CVuJheFjQJhTMD5A9

If he said no, then don't pay for their mistakes.

I won't.

#1784 10 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Why? Jack said no. As far as we know that is the official stance from the company, why would that change?

Et tu, Harry....?

I thought the letter was supposed to change it.

You buying a playfield effectively gives consent to playfield damage being acceptable. It also neuters your letter.

Every man for yourselves boys....time to jump ship, ready the torpedos, then ride the torpedoes out, and away from the Black Pearl. AOOOOOOOGA! AOOOOOOOOOGAAAH!

#1786 10 months ago

Listen Harry, and listen good! You go back to that dame, I mean Jack....I mean hugging that pristine new playfield o' yours, with your flimsy letters an threats, and well....it's suicide, ya seeeeee!

(Seriously, this thread is retarded.)

#1788 10 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

What's my benefit for standing on a pedestal and taking the blows?

Guess they don't call you Harry Houdini fer nuthin'! Quite the trick....

Houdini...did...stand on pedestals, and died from that...blow...to the stomach days later!

This whole situation has me from tears and anguish, to laughter and jaw drops. Crazy shit!

houdini (resized).jpg
#1790 10 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Well, technically he died because a Princeton student who was a boxer hit him in the stomach (a feat he was able to defend against by tightening his abdomen) when he was not ready for the blow. It happened in his dressing room after a show. He ended up with appendicitis but did not take it seriously and continued to do shows until his appendix ruptured on stage days later. He was born 26 years before the turn of the century and died 26 years after the turn, 26+26 = 52, the number of cards in a deck. He also died on Halloween. He was clear in that he would do anything to contact Bess, his wife, should he ever die to prove that paranormal or spiritual contact from the dead was possible, a thing he was a proponent against and exposed many frauds. In essence, he championed that cause of preventing unsuspecting citizens from being ripped off by charlatans. Except, he got press from his stance and became famous and did more shows.
Do you see anything befitting of this thread in that story?

Oh, I know how he died. I. Was. That. Student!!! *dun dun daaaaaah*

Anything befitting of this thread in that story...? Hmm, I guess I don't actually. As that Harry, didn't pay the fake mediums, just so he could expose them, and be in cahoots/benefit.

Cahoots I say! Well, I wrote it. I'm not nutty enough to actually speak my text as I write it.

Oh well. Such is life, and the afterlife.

#1793 10 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Sigh. Because somehow I owe something to everyone here and have to take some stance to make you happy? Don't bash me and not even step up to sign the letter. How do I get the part of my life back that I spent trying to help every owner who has this issue and issues in the past with JJP? Did you want to send me a few bucks to cover the 5 certified letters I am sending? The MOST support that seems to be common here, aside from being a keyboard warrior, is to sign the letter. It's tough to stick your neck out there, kudos to those people who care enough.

You could afford 171 certified letters, give or take, at the going rate of $3.50......if you hadn't bought a playfield.

I am the ultimate tough guy *flexes in 1920's bathing suit and twirls moosestache* I decided I shouldn't pay to get something replaced, if it's broke.

I'm tired of this game. I'm converting this shitbox into a boat, grabbing an oar, and hitting the high seas, like any respectable pirate would. If any ah' yer scurvy dogs wants to sink my Dauntless, Pearl, whatshavesya, I'll be sailing up alongside ya, and shootin' my wee Pearl cannon right upside your maelstrom ramp. Prepare the sacred pirate oils, cause....that's gonna hurt!!! AAAARR....GH!

(Imagine that, a bit boxier, full of dimples, and ripples, and you'll get the idea, ya will!)

12554935005040980208 (resized).jpg
#1794 10 months ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Get off the cross please.
We can afford 5k+ toys &amp; a little bit of foldin monies; no one said we were Certified Letter rich!

He has to take Yelobird off the cross first though....

#1804 10 months ago

"Jane & Leonard Albess Foundation" harryhoudini that "l" needs removed.

"We strongly request that you make public and announce any further decisions made in this matter so the wider ownership of this machine are notified and able to also receive the same remediation active community participants obtain.

Should you fail to respond to us in a timely manner we are prepared to take further action to share the continued issues we have had with this game and JJP’s non-response with a wider audience. You can direct your response to potcowners@gmail.com or directly post in the JJP sub-forum on pinside."

Feels way too threatening for my tastes. I don't see how they can interpret the "tone" specifically here, maybe other parts as well, as either intending direct harm towards their brand, or the threat that if conditions aren't met, there will be a larger swathe of widespread discussion past a pinside thread that could equate to legal action or libel.

I really don't know what they might assume or what the final intent might be from this letter.

I guess if I want peace, i.e. continued business with JJP, this is not the road I wish to take. Unless I do, I also don't like the "Some have indicated they would not be comfortable doing this and so their support is uncounted here, but know there are many more." as I don't wish to be inferred of supporting this statement. I'd rather my discussions regarding serious deliberation of my specific issue, as in it's outcome, directly be with JJP.

As I've said several times, if I'm not satisfied with those attempts, I just don't need another of their products. One will be more than enough, for me, sadly.

I don't feel any of this situation will change at all. At this point, voting with my dollars, feels the only way change might occur.

#1807 10 months ago
Quoted from EaglePin:

... and on the back of the t-shirt it could say
Just
Junky
Playfields
And there could be a picture of my I-lane post chip on both the front and back.

I think you're a nice and thoughtful person, from the brief interactions we've had, and how you've discussed your points here.

I'd rather hear about you directly speaking to any and every representative of JJP if you saw them at a convention, and tell them how vexing and disappointing this experience has been for you. You seem a sincere and caring person, and I feel that approach would better suit how you've expressed yourself here, as well as transfer your message in a way more likely to be heard and weighed, than dismissed and ignored.

#1809 10 months ago
Quoted from EaglePin:

Agreed. That was just venting and not something I'd actually do.

Venting is good. We've all done a lot of it here, and it's helped some, I hope.

I do recommend heading to a show sometime, and trying to have a chat. For what it's worth.

#1810 10 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

I'll make changes if you want to sign the letter. Otherwise, those who have chosen to sign can suggest whatever they want and I'll incorporate their sentiments. I think the threat to "share information" couldn't be weaker. Should I tell them instead that we'll call them naughty names?
What's JJP going to do? Not sell you a game? Can you not get a game any other way? Can you not have someone else order parts for you if in some weird world they ban you from getting parts? WHAT DOES JJP HOLD OVER YOUR HEAD?! WE ARE THEIR CUSTOMERS, THEIR BUSINESS DEPENDS ON OUR INTEREST IN THEIR PRODUCTS AND BELIEF IN THEIR CUSTOMER SUPPORT. I don't know how clear I could be. What kind of tip toe bullshiz are you trying to do here?
The "L" was removed in the private version I have with owner names/addresses. Thanks for noticing.

Well, I read your post on the drive home from work, and mulled over my thoughts.

I guess for me, Jersey Jack Pinball has been a bit of a fantasy for me, since I first saw the Wizard of Oz and Dialed In, a year and a half ago in person.

Seeing those games, the wonders that they are, helped distract me from my current situation in life. Most of my friends for decades moved onward with families. Women and dating, never bore the fruit/s I'd hoped it would. Career choices never panned out the way I'd like them to have grown. Belief systems, whether religious or ethical, became obsolete and weighed down by life experience. Media, has felt retread, not refreshed, and ultimately repetitive. Family has gotten older, passed on, and even my two cats are becoming senior in age.

Fantasy was necessary. And Jersey Jack Pinball seemed to represent a sidestep from all those saddening aspects of life, in a way that felt magical, fresh, and called back to younger years where pinball thrived, was inventive, and playful.

This past year though, has seen the curtains of that fantasy fall ever downward. The Wizard exposed. The clouds a bit grayer where sun once shined.

From reading seriously on this game for months prior, then ownership, the reality of Jersey Jack Pinball, of pinball in general, has left me feeling more saddened than reality removed.

I feel at this point, personally I have three options in moving forward with my game, my Jersey Jack Pinball experience.

First, acceptance. Realizing and accepting the damage already done, and most likely more to come, and coming to just feel that's the way things will be with this game, or any other future game I'd fathom purchasing from them.

Another option is more contact, more frustration, more telephone calls and emails to JJP and Automated, and fighting more for what I feel I deserve as a customer, and most likely not getting that recognition.

Lastly, would be signing this letter. And for me, I feel that would be the final cutting stroke of this bond. A severance from buyer to manufacturer. A final cut, a line drawn, a flag waved, a cannon fired. There would be no going back for me, in my mind. The bond of good faith, from buyer to seller, seller to buyer, unabated, would be gone forever onward.

So that is where I'm at. Every avenue feels as if the dream of Jersey Jack Pinball is near death. The fantasy, now made reality. The distraction from the pain and rigors of my daily world, now a bit more inescapable than they were a year prior.

That, is why I am reluctant to sign.

I know the dream has been wounded, and is fading ever so quickly, but for me, signing a letter in this manner, one calculated and clinical versus from my own mind and heart, would only serve to severe a tie that I'm not quite ready to have die. Not just yet.

I do feel it will, but I'd rather have that death of fantasy, come directly from my own mouth, my own words, my own intent.

I do appreciate your efforts in all of this, and I do wish you the outcome you so desire, but for me, I must forge my own path, have my own fantasy come to it's end by my own voice.

#1818 10 months ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

Man, you made me all teary. I hate that. Going to go give my 2 cats a big hug. All the best with it Wes, I think you’re a good person.
Don’t mind Harry, he’s just getting fed up and a bit overwhelmed. He is a good person too.

You're a decent heart on your sleeve kinda guy gumnut. You're passionate, forthright, and open about in how you present yourself. I can genuinely appreciate that.

I have no hard feelings towards anyone here. Everyone is their own person, and I can find value in that, whether I agree or disagree with their thoughts or views. Ideally anyway.

You should definitely hug your cats, or leave em' do cat things, whichever makes them and you happy. Cats are the best, though mine I feel mock me as I go off to work, and they sleep....more!

If you ever make it to the States, I wanna by you a beer, or whatever suits your fancy.

Quoted from Reznnate:

Don't allow a little playfield wear to destroy your fantasty... JJP pins are a beacon of light among $25k diamond Beatle games...

That is a very, very valid point. I guess I just feel, as much as JJP might have failed me, I feel I've failed them in being cross, speaking my mind in unflattering ways and such. Like not only have they failed my dream, but I betrayed it in turn.

Humans. We suck a good bit.

#1849 10 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if all this was due to rushing things into production without enough cure time.
I remember seeing a Stern factory video with racks of playfields stored flat, waiting for their cure date.

There always seems to be a rush in pinball now. Which is weird, given it had a solid decade of being dormant, sans major competition.

#1852 10 months ago
Quoted from VillaThrills:

Well, now my star post are bubbling. Time for some neoprene. Will probably grab the official ones.

Ugh. Bottom posts? How many plays?

I'm considering getting double stars and neoprene for the other slings too. I don't want to buy another playfield.

I am at the point of a divorce, more so than digging deeper.

#1855 10 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

What I used:
https://www.pinballlife.com/plastic-translucent-double-star-posts-1-116-tall.html
amazon.com link »
You will have to adjust the leaf holders for the sling switches slightly after doing this, as they won't be reponsive after the switch.
This hid the problem and put it out of my mind. I hope it does for you as well.

Did you use these for the BP slings underneath and the starmap too, or just the lower slings?

I did the lower two. Just figure I'd rather buy for the other slings if necessary. I don't want to have to pay of a mistake not my own.

Thanks for the input Derek!

#1876 10 months ago
Quoted from ccbiggsoo7:

played one tonight at the local bar. sure enough, chipping around every post! [quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Woof!

Quoted from zaphX:

Can you guys keep politics out of our pinball fun?
I come here to escape that stuff.

I'm at the point where I want to find a new location to escape pinball discussions!

This site gets so fucking intense most days, which is weird, but I guess sadly even an escapist based hobby will bring out the same conversation styles, personalities, arguments, and treatment of one another the same as any other walk of human life.

Time for me to go find Hobbiton or wherever Mole People live!

5e08590953c6ddae00a793f9620c7ee9 (resized).jpg
#1890 10 months ago
Quoted from DougPiranha:

Realize that the little posts on the lanes and all around the playfield need washers too. I used metric SS washers and rubber washers from Lowes.

Are you replacing every post with washers underneath?

#1895 10 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I couldn't agree more....the icing on the cake is that they are actually charging customers for new play fields...what an insult. At a minimum they should provide a replacement for free since the work involved in a play field swap is egregious....my experience with JJP is they are great with minor stuff, but are not so great when it comes to cabinet and play field issues (I had problems with one of my NIB cabinets).

I don't feel a line should be drawn by them. The ENTIRE set of components is their product, not just washers, screws, wireforms, etc. If a part of that product is faulty, replace it, and do so without a customer have to jump through hoops, worry about the situation, or worst of all PAY.

#1912 10 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I don’t think it had to do with profitability. I’m sure that was thought out well in advance of production.
My theory is simple. People pulled orders due to the mech nerfs. Parts orders were reduced accordingly. The game hit the street and surprise! It’s fantastic even with the changes. Suddenly everyone wants one but the parts orders require lead time and minimum quantities so the ship has sailed. So to speak.
That’s my take anyway. Not based on anything but speculation.

From what I heard, I believe through an interview with Jack, they initially wanted parts for 1500 games, for some reason could only acquire 1000 sets.

#1923 10 months ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

I don't even know what "quality" means or how you rate it...are you referring to the weight of the machine?
My JJP machine was littered with problems from design, mechs, clearcoat, and assembly. That's all I can say aboot them became that's what I have encountered personally.
But yeah man...that DI of mine is like, heavy as shit. Strong like bull!

I don't know either....

Clearly there's a nearly complete PC build in JJP games, as opposed to the near Raspberry Pi like hardware in Stern games. Definitely profit there for Stern, but as well as adding weight to the head, I have no idea why they'd have that extra computing power.

Seems like JJP has better sound quality/speaker system as well.

But yes, with all the issues I've had, how much can I praise a more complex, more structurally sound game when price is higher, as well as the fear of cost to damage ratio being higher.

I'm somewhat floating towards a Pro, as a result of feeling like a $5500 investment, and it being a potential shitbox, if far less mentally taxing, than a potential $9500 shitbox.

#1924 10 months ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

Mechanism to remove lock down bar.

My lockdown bar and reciever were so fuckered on my JJP Pirates, that it took me three hours to have the thing seat properly. And then the damn yellow lockdown bar wouldn't snap into place. I adjusted the entire receiver, as well as the lockdown bar armature, and it started locking fully. Then for whatever reason, it started not locking again.

The rgb lights, and lack of rgb GI, definitely pale on Sterns compared to JJP. And Sterns translites on the lower two models seem like junk plastic and ink.

#1933 10 months ago
Quoted from twenty84:

There was a recent thread here with a very minor and purely cosmetic issue on a BKSR pro playfield that wasn't even visible from the players position that Stern agreed to a populated playfield replacement. I personally know several people that were given playfield swaps by Stern for playfield issues that I would consider more minor that many of the issues I've seen in this thread.
I have a Beatles that's fine and can say the same for the one on route locally. I know there is a pinside user that has posted pics of a Beatles playfield with similar issues several times. My guess is Stern will replace it but I do not know any details of that situation, if they didn't replace it I would be surprised and that would be unacceptable to me. If some Beatles owners are having playfield issues that are not being addressed I hope they will start a separate thread. It seems to be brought up in this thread periodically as if to point out that some Stern games have this issue so it should be acceptable to the community. I don't think we should accept these kind of playfield issues on any new game regardless of who made it.

Oh? So that playfield with the wood splinter down in the gutter, got a fill swap???

Wow! That's pretty awesome actually! I remember following that thread months back, never saw the outcome.

#1971 10 months ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

Clear is denting where post were tight but i didnt c any chipping? As long as playfield dont start chipping apart is the clear bunching up around some post a huge deal? I have/had alot of pins that have slight clear bunching up but that was the extent .... now if it starts chipping apart that's another story.

Bunching is the first step in this process. Chipping often follows.

Quoted from cosmokramer:

On location today...
Wonka LE with displacing clear....
[quoted image]
Pirates with displacing clear and chipped up saucer...
[quoted image][quoted image]
But what really got my attention is the playfield looked like it was sliced up with a razor blade....hard to photograph but you can see a bit of it in Jacks face...the dirt has settled in making it more noticable...[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

That's absolutely awful.

Thank you for taking and posting photos. It's pretty essential to note these issues, so they can be corrected for present and future games.

I'm starting to finally really enjoy Wonka, but no way am I walking back into this fire with all of these continued and repeated issues.

Quoted from statsdoc:

If I had to guess, that slicing on the playfield is coming from chipped balls, which are probably caused by the t-nut in the map hole. I seriously doubt that operators are addressing that problem before it is put on route.
As bad as the clearcoat problems are, the t-nut issue is some respects is worse. If that is not addressed, no part pf the playfield is going to look good. It could also be caused by the bracket that extends past the metal guide in the back right. Either way, your balls are beat to hell quickly and they will unleash destruction on the playfield.

Did you trim either of those on your game? I did the tnut, and before I start playing again, I'll trim that bracket in the back behind the Pearl, as well as put some more neoprene under the star posts under the Pearl ramp and in the Chapter Select area.

I saw a Pirates last night on location with chipping and cracking under the ramp. Shoulda took a photo...

#1973 10 months ago
Quoted from statsdoc:

I adhered a hard rubber piece to the wood above the t-nut after I inspected the pinballs after a dozen games and could see how they were already dented. I also checked to make sure they cleared the brace behind the metal guide, which they did, so no fix was necessary. The rubber piece protected things until I got the ship off, which I will do now that I received my Cliffy protectors. I checked the pinballs again a few days ago and they look fine. The rubber may make the map shot slightly harder, but I haven’t noticed and can make that shot without an issue. I may just leave it as is ... still debating.
I am going to have to look at the other posts you mentioned. How many of the are there ... so I can order parts?

If anyone can corroborate...

I think 2 and 2 for the slings in chapter select.

2 for the sling near the bumpers.

3 for the sling under the Pearl Ramp.

And then the standard 3 for both lower slings.

#1975 10 months ago
Quoted from statsdoc:

Thank you. I did a quick visual inspection and do not see any bunching of the clear on any of those posts. Perhaps I am lucky so far. I am debating what to do and will have to go back and find the recommended star posts and washers.
I sure appreciate everyone on this forum. I cannot imagine dealing with all of this on my own. I would not have even known where to expect problems without you all. Thank you everyone.

Here's double star posts people recommend. I used them for the lower slings, with the Lowe's neoprene washers.

https://www.pinballlife.com/plastic-translucent-double-star-posts-1-116-tall.html

Here are the washers.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hillman-2-Count-5-16-in-x-3-4-in-Neoprene-Standard-SAE-Fender-Washers/3012346

#1985 10 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

This is what I've been saying all along. By going ballistic and making legal threats, the well is now poisoned and goodwill is out the window.
I've been pleading all along for people to be logical, rational and reasonable. All it got me was a ton of downvotes.

I think downvotes came more from extreme persistence on your end, after downplaying people feeling frustrated about this issue over and over again.

Hell, I got mass downvotes regarding criticism of the mechs on the new Stern Jurassic Park, backed off, but questioned more why got downvoted for having different views. Then I was told I was a martyr for doing so.

At a certain point, this and any forum becomes more ego pushing on both end than anything. I feel the longer I'm on here, the less I learn, and the more egos I feel.

#2013 10 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Thanks Harry for the recap.
Yes I said all those things. Yes I apologized and attempted to de escalate. A couple people approached me privately to say my words made them feel like their issues were unimportant.
Let me be clear - chipping sucks and none of us are happy about it. In my personal case it was easy to hide under posts so I was able to put it behind me.
I am empathetic to the folks who have it worse. I am also empathetic to the position this puts JJP in.

I agree with all of what you've said here.

But in addition, all of us need to be concerned about a product that isn't matching quality standards with pricing, as well as decades prior productions standards.

I know for me, I won't buy new games unless this issue is addressed where need be.

Caution here is no different than any other consumer interest group. Except for me, a $4 Whopper and a rotten gut is far less painful than a marred playfield that will only worsen over time.

Ultimately, all companies involved need to vocalize the issue after determining it, and course correct for reassurance of present and future customers. There should be no war here, between slightly irked and very irked customers. This isn't either of our faults for being enthusiastic fans. It will be though, if we continue to tolerate and buy flawed products, even if we love them dearly.

#2053 9 months ago
Quoted from dts:

That may be, I don't know. More information would have been nice, I gave it a shot. One thing that was helpful to learn is that he won't produce more playfields without JJP ordering them. So the idea that more will be available down the line is unlikely unless JJP keeps getting them.

Or switches to someone else...?

#2064 9 months ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

I have a tiny chip to the left of the left fork. Wondering if I should bend the fork a little so it does not rub. Would a cliffy work here?

Can you take a photo of it? I keep hearing people mention this, and have no idea of the games location.

That really sucks, by the way. You've got a few chips at this point, yes?

#2066 9 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

If you can’t see it while playing...isn’t it better to not know about it at all?

If I can protect ahead of time, I'd rather do that than pay an extra $600.

This reminds me to go to the doctor. Also many hazards undetectable to me by my naked eye!

#2076 9 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

My feeling was in such a high-traffic area, it's better to know and arrest it from getting worse with some mylar.

So these are the forks in the chest, yes?

#2125 9 months ago
Quoted from Psw757:

Me too, keep us posted!
Based on last conversation I had with Frank it seems this isn’t going anywhere without talking directly with Jack.

Same here, and even further along down the line, it feels like nothing will progress.

#2144 9 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Well, I have a TOTAN CPR playfield sitting in a box. I have all 3 WOZ playfields sitting in a box. Now I'll have a POTC sitting in a box. I was wondering why some people ordered a 2nd playfield when they bought the game, I should have known based on WOZ and DI. I refurbished a DE JP playfield and installed it. I rebuilt my Cyclone with a CPR playfield. I am refurbishing my TOM playfield with decals and clear. So yeah... I like nice playfields? Another reason POTC playfield wear is heartbreaking.

Do you lay them flat for storage? I've been wondering this....

Any special care instructions, other than low humidity I'd assume?

2 weeks later
#2382 9 months ago
Quoted from dts:

Mine looked perfect but I found a paint chip under the Tortuga scoop, where the metal pressed into the playfield. Cliffy covered it completely. Some clear build up at some posts. Would I buy it again? Definitely, it’s an amazing game! Do I hope they fix it? Absolutely.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Well, that's awful...

In what seems the norm for these games, the scoop dug/sunk in so easily that shit all around it has become disrupted and inevitably destroyed.

Anyone thinking this is close to normal or acceptable, man...

#2460 9 months ago
Quoted from VillaThrills:

LE 0488 original owner from a valid distributor
Properly registered first day of ownership
Less than 1 month old
Less than 500 plays on it
Case 3488
Jack himself denied the warranty claim
Star post on now and now are chipping at the star posts even further out
Pisses me off every time I look at it[quoted image][quoted image]

This is absolutely awful and unacceptable. I'm sorry to see this...

Did Jack deny the discounted playfield or something else?

#2502 8 months ago
Quoted from Audioenslaved:

Why should he have to pay for a discounted playfield ONE month after purchase! Why are we entertaining this absolute rubbish response to a situation that should de rectified for free.

Quoted from JodyG:

In no uncertain terms, whoever he bought the game from should be getting it back at no cost to the buyer. If they refuse, start suing the bastards.

Uh guys, I was just asking for clarification. I was curious as to what he was denied.

I have this issue as well, and hope it's resolved soon for myself, as well as others.

#2528 8 months ago

I'm going to post this comment in each thread I've posted about regarding POTC or JJP playfield issues.

I feel like anytime a company or individual is criticized for a lack of quality within their output, they should be equally commended when that output is adjusted.

I received an email from Jack before I headed out for work midday Thursday. I work second shift, and Friday had a voicemail left by him when I awoke, and called him back immediately.

Jack seemed earnest, gracious, and humbled in his offer of a new playfield to correct my issues with my POTC playfield tear and rippling. For me, this is the best I could hope for. I don't expect a fully populated playfield swap, or an outright machine exchange. What I am receiving is acknowledgment openly of the issues that have occured within this game, and done so by the company face of said product.

I respect this move. And it gives me greater confidence towards JJP then I had two months ago.

Jack as well, seemed confident these issues are being course corrected moving forward, and his overall tone was upbeat, wishing to make amends, and continue and improve customer relations. In my mind, for me and my situation, that has occurred.

That said, if it weren't for every single person being vocal on this issue, on this forum or via podcasts, whether supporting or accepting these issues, this outcome might not be happening. So I am thankful to all of you, as well as Jack and JJP, for helping make this lovely game "whole" again once more.

I also hope everyone affected by this issue is made whole again as well.

#2536 8 months ago
Quoted from cheshirefilms:

Just to be sure, this is the right washer?[quoted image]

Yup!

#2538 8 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Yeah, those are the thinner of all the ones I have tried.
Does someone remember ltg posting about changing the sling geometry? I think someone (maybe zaphx) tried shimming the coil bracket to reduce the hammer travel and then I thought LTG said something about dropping a nut down the coil. Sounds "nutty" but that's what I recall. I can't find the post, but I was somewhat sure that is what he said. Either way, does anyone know how to reduce the travel of the arm? I haven't looked since I haven't had any escapes with any of the washers.
Another option is grinding down the star posts to reduce the position of the rungs.

I remember LTG saying something also.