Can the guy who did the "Fix my playfield, Stern" and "Where's the code Stern?" do a similar graphic for this?
Quoted from cottonm4:
And it is a little sobering when you consider the Boeing bought up McDonnell-Douglas Aircraft and part of the reason for that happening is that M-D never fully recovered from when a DC-10 lost an engine at O'Hare Airport in 1979 over a quality issue.
Non-stop service to Hoffman Estates.....
Quoted from EaglePin:
I haven't posted my experience with chipping yet but I think with the activity today it might be useful to share so people can form opinions based on more information. In fact, before all the activity in the thread today I had a conversation with someone at work telling them about my chipping issue, and in that conversation I mentioned to the person that there had been a lot of activity on Pinside about the playfield cracking issue in the past month or so but I prefer to keep my interactions with JJP private to give them a chance to work through it and respond to me. Also in that conversation I said I understand my issue is out of the warranty period so I know they don't have an obligation to do anything about it, however ALL I EVER ASKED FROM THEM FROM THE BEGINNING WAS THE QUESTION "WHAT DO THEY RECOMMEND DOING TO LAY THE CHIP DOWN AND MINIMIZE THE CHANCE OF IT SPREADING SO I CAN RESUME PLAYING MY MACHINE?" I don't think that's an unreasonable ask. I just want to take their recommended approach to the chip and then get back to playing my machine.
It wasn’t until my 2nd follow-up call in 4 weeks of no responses that they did anything, and that was to reach out to the playfield manufacturer for ideas. I have been very patient with them to give them time to provide even just minimal assistance with this straightforward question, but it just has not happened. IT'S BEEN 6 WEEKS NOW SINCE MY FIRST PHONE CONVERSATION WITH THEM AND THEY'VE HAD NO RESPONSE TO WHAT I THINK SHOULD BE A QUESTION THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO ANSWER - "WHAT DO YOU RECOMMEND DOING TO LAY THE CHIP DOWN SO I CAN GET BACK TO PLAYING MY MACHINE?" People on Pinside might have ideas about what to do, but I want advice from JJP since it's their business and their product.
Seeing the activity in the forum today has made me rethink my patience, so here goes:
Bottom line is that I do realize the terms of the warranty are against me. While I understand and accept that fact I'm still very, very disappointed that it's been over 6 weeks with no response to my question. I understand how they handle my and other people's issues are business decisions and they're free to make their choices. I also understand that their choices influence my future purchases (and there will be future purchases), so I'll be making a different choice when it comes to which manufacturer I buy the next machine from.
For me that's what it really comes down to is choices made by both sides and how each side feels about the choices made by the other. I'm not happy they've chosen to not provide a response to a very straightforward question on my issue. I'm not happy that the foundation of the game (the playfield) had an issue within well less than a year of ownership. I gritted my teeth and bought the replacement playfield in case this chip eventually gets worse or some other issues pop up, and I'm not happy they chose to have me pay shipping for the replacement playfield. The impression I've formed through my conversations with them is that it sounded to me like JJP is just outsourcing the playfield with nobody on JJP staff who has enough of an understanding of the playfield painting process or chemistry to know how that playfield is made or what could cause issues with the art and clear coat lifting, let alone having ideas on how to lay a chip back down. My impression is their staff is just more focused on the mechanical and electronic aspects of the games and they just blindly rely on their playfield supplier. My impressions may be incorrect, but it's what I've been left with after 6 weeks of nothing but a few mostly empty phone conversations.
It’s a shame really because the game itself is really so amazing with fun shots and features. But right now I have no confidence JJP can provide good service or make sure the foundations of their games (the playfields) are built to last one year, let alone several years, so I don’t imagine I’ll be interested in picking up another one of their games for many years. Again, they can choose to operate and provide service however they see fit, and I can choose to base my future purchases on how I feel about that.
Everyone's entitled to their own opinions but my opinion is that my machine should not have this type chip on the playfield inside of a year and, since it does, JJP should be able to give advice in less than 6 weeks on how to lay it down so I can move on to continue playing pinball. I also think it's interesting that the other machine I own is a used STTNG (originally from 1994) I purchased at the same time as my JJPPOTC and the STTNG playfied is excellent with no restorations that I'm aware of outside regular cleaning and waxing. For a machine that apparently has a bit of a reputation about maintenance issues, my STTNG has been better than my NIB JJPPOTC.
Again, I only post this to relay my experience so others can make their own decisions and form their own opinions about JJP's handling of a playfield issue even when the only thing JJP is being asked for is some advice.
Here's the timeline of my contact with JJP on this:
1) In late May I did a cleaning on my machine and discovered a chip with the art and clear coat lifting near the base of the movable post in front of the "I" lane. I had never moved the post and nothing except a pinball had touched it since it was delivered.
2) I'm the original owner of my machine. When my game was delivered in December I read the warranty terms and I registered my machine within 5 days of purchase. The game has been home use only. I understand the game is out of the warranty period but I contacted them because I thought they could provide help by offering a suggestion as to how best to lay the chip down to prevent future spreading and continue playing.
3) On finding the chip I immediately stopped playing the machine. After a couple weeks I got around to sending an e-mail to JJP with pictures of the chip. My e-mail said only the following: "I’ve seen that a fix kit is being issued for chipping issues at the sling posts on POTC. On my machine I have a chip lifting up at the base of the movable post near the “I” lane, even though I have never moved the post. Will the kit being issued also work on this “I” lane post? Also, can you recommend the best way to repair the chip and prevent further lifting? Should I glue it down or put Mylar over it (or do you recommend something else be done)? Attached are pictures of the chip. I’d really appreciate any advice you can give me."
4) Out of concern my e-mail might not be received, I called. Good thing I did because it turned out my e-mail had gone to their spam folder and was unseen. The phone conversation was mostly just gathering facts about the problem and there wasn't any real course of action laid out at the end of it, so I gave it a few days.
5) Three days later I called again just to get a better idea of what the course of action was going to be to resolve my question which, again, was essentially "What would someone at JJP do to lay down the chip and try to prevent further spreading if their machine had this issue?" I was told they'd check with people involved with production and they'd get back to me. Meanwhile I'd read on Pinside that a replacement playfield could be purchased, so, although I wished I didn't think it was a good idea, I asked to purchase one in case a patch for this chip didn't hold well and/or other issues popped up in the future. I paid their asking price plus shipping. I explained I still would like an answer to my question about how best to lay the chip down, but that I'm getting the replacement playfield in the event things get worse down the road or new issues pop up.
6) Two weeks later I hadn't heard anything, so I called to follow up. I had to explain my issue again, and then was told they hadn't heard anything from the people in the production area. Then I was asked what I expect to get out of this call. I said I understand is it's a 30-day warranty and I'm outside that, but what I'd like is just an answer to the question "What would someone at JJP do to lay down the chip and try to prevent further spreading if their machine had this issue?" I was told that yes, I definitely deserve a response to that question and they'll work to get one.
7) Another two weeks later I hadn't heard a peep, so I called again. I was put through exactly the same conversation as two weeks prior, even including the "Nobody in production has responded" and "What do you expect to get out of this call?" comments. I said again I understand my machine is out of warranty and JJP has no obligation to do anything, but I'd really appreciate it if someone could be my advocate on the question of "What would someone at JJP do to lay the chip down and try to prevent further spreading?" Again I was told I deserve an answer to my question and was told they might have to reach out to the manufacturer for advice on it, and they said give it a day and they'll get back to me. At the end of the next day I received an e-mail that they had reached out to the manufacturer.
5 days later I received an e-mail saying the manufacturer is on holiday. It's now been another 5 days since then and 6 weeks total since my first phone call with no answer to the question, "What should I do to lay the chip down and try to prevent future spreading of it?"[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
It takes time for a Lawyer to draft a response. Their question regarding what you expect from your call appears to be Legal bait.
I see there are still a few members of the flock hanging on in the church of Jersey Jack.....
Quoted from zaphX:
So let's say for argument's sake there were 1000 SEs in the world and you made rocks for all of them. You took the wife out to a great dinner and felt positive about your success. The customers love them.
Then suddenly, people start noticing one of the mounts cracking. It's in an out of the way place, and due to the texture on the piece you really don't even notice the crack after fixing it with a dab of super glue. Unfortunate, but not the end of the world for most people.
Someone decides this is an outrage and they want a full new replacement piece. You'd probably be willing to do that, but instead of approaching you directly, Spartacus decides to make multiple posts about it, calling for community outrage and even threatening legal action.
Now what? You can't help the original person any more because he's telling his mob everything you say. What would you do?
He would send an email to all who purchased one from him asking them to look at the suspect area for possible cracking. If cracking is present, he would offer a rubber or composite washer to prevent the crack from spreading. He would send at no charge, costing him aboot $1.00 for envelope, washer and postage stamp.
If somone complains louder, he would offer a replacement for cost plus shipping (since that's the new norm).
Actually, he would send a free replacement and eat cereal for dinner once to cover the cost. Maybe delay purchase of a new game if necessary.
More likely, he would send out the washer preemptively since he seems to be a smart, conscious guy.
Quoted from BrewNinja:
The thing that floors me is that if this was Stern, the pitchforks would be out and the witch hunt would be on. But since its a smaller guy, "being reasonable" and accepting to pay cost on a playfield is ok. Mind blown. Stern had some issues with playfields, and when they did, they sent out a fully populated playfield to swap in. All you had to do is swap it and send the old one back. Why aren't people demanding that from JJP? Its not that hard. Unfortunately, from the sounds of things the only way things are going to change is if someone organizes a class action lawsuit against them. Everyone wants to support the small guy, but then the small guy cant be a dick about things either. If they came out and were honest and said we know we have a problem, we are looking into it, that would be one thing. But instead they just continue on like nothing is wrong.
Remember, JJP machines are the best-built, highest quality machines around. Just ask every. single. WoZ pre-order customer. They sang it from their hymnal for the three years of their pre-order wait. Then the light boards started to fail etc.
Quoted from harryhoudini:
Hum. Not sure what to make of this yet but the UPS tracking number JJP sent me doesn't work and my payment was refunded a few days after. I replied to the refund email to ask why.
I'd guess that the certified letters you sent, as well as this thread might have something to do with it. Otherwise, maybe they ran out of playfields....
Quoted from vireland:
And Ford still screwed me over on three separate transmissions they wouldn't fix literally a couple months out of warranty. Big car companies can be dicks...
There was no defect. Those transmissions performed exactly as designed; to make it past the warranty time and mileage. Perhaps a Ford Protect Extended Service Plan should have been purchased. During dealer prep of the new vehicle, could they program the engine & Transmission ECU's to not fail right after the standard warranty mileage is exceeded?
Better ideas and better cars; Have you driven a Ford, Lately?
The words "We are contractually obligated" seemed to be a big fat lie the last time they were uttered by one of the parties here.....
Quoted from Soulrider911:
On man cosmokramer did u just get a CE? And that’s exactly how my friends brand new SE looked oh and there was a massive chip under the dauntless where the post is... someone probably cracked the clear then tried to fix it, made it worse,, finally just said sweet it let’s just ship it.... what a joke I seriously have lost all respect for JJP as a company they don’t practice what they preach and in my book that’s basically lying
C'mon, they make produce "The Best-built, Highest Quality Pinball Machines".
Dont act in haste, its the *spotty cell service*.
I hear they now have Wi-Fi overseas. Hopefully Jack's phone has wi-fi calling capability.
Quoted from PtownPin:
unfortunately its a total pipe dream if u think their gonna replace the play field or take the game back.....JJP doesn't have the $ to even consider this as an option....never happen
JJP has liability insurance and an umbrella policy to cover this. The deductible will sure hit them, but they won't go out of business.
Quoted from pingod:
Here is Jack's statement from the Wonka thread, Key post there.
Jack's statement transcribed from the podcast -
"Alright, well first off I just want to apologize for the delay in speaking about this matter publicly as we sorted through things internally and we understand that some of our customers are concerned to see and hear of clear coat chipping around posts on our Willy Wonka game.
The number of actual cases we have seen with true playfield chipping is extremely low and we're in the process of developing a program for anyone with documented damage and will work with those customers on a case-by-case basis and, you know, feel free to call Tech Support or call me directly if you feel your machine has true chipping or damage. And we want you to feel confident and comfortable with your purchase, always.
We want to notify customers NOT to take apart their machine, remove posts, etc, for the sole purpose of looking for chipping or problems under the posts. If you truly need to remove any part of the machine, we recommend contacting JJP Tech Support for instructions on how to do this properly. And for those customers who see rippling or pooling around any post, we want to urge you, this does not mean your game will chip.
We're diligently working with our vendor and engineers day and night on correcting any pooling moving forward. We have no reason to believe any games out there in the field are inadequate in any way, shape, or form. You should continue to enjoy and play your amazing game.
Our company's put countless hours and efforts into making Willy Wonka a fun experience for you and your loved ones to appreciate for years to come. I mean really, our people work hard every day with passion to design and create amazing games for you to play. As we always have, we will stand by our product and support our loyal customers and I can tell you that'll never change.
It is much better to listen to Jack read the script provided by his Lawyer on the Dutch Pinball defender's podcast. Sad that Martin is mixed up with this shill.
Quoted from CLEllison:
Laws vary state to state, however here's a true story. Back in the 90's a friend of mine kept getting his car stereo stolen. He soldered fish hooks all along the back top of the sleeve. Eventually he was greeted with a bloody mess in his car. That thief sued him and won. This was in Iowa FWIW.
GnarLee, please note the post quoted.
There was a time I wanted to load an old radar detector with black powder and wire a model rocket engine to the power cord. Leave it on the dash in the apartment complex I lived in and had the car broken into. It would give new meaning to the term one-arm-bandit.
I discussed it with a Judge who was a family friend. He told me I'd go to jail if the explodee could link it to me. Thus, no booby trapping for me.
Quoted from GnarLee:
um putting a bomb inside of a car is a little different than a little shock. Would not be hard to argue he was at fault because he was unqualified to work on a pinball machine/electricity. Furthermore the machine clearly has warnings stating there is high voltage from the manufacturer that he ignored. Ill stand trial in front of a jury of peers and argue all day. Not that this scenario would ever happen but, sue me idgaf. Worst case you get a couple thousand dollars big woop. No house no cars no kids no job..what are you suing me for again?
OK, you win.
Quoted from harryhoudini:
Drive by posting.
1. No call from JJP, no credit on my card. Anyone get one?
2. Here is a pic of the playfield as of today, with my test post. The clear is definitely much harder. I cranked this post down to what I would consider tight but not ridiculous. Probably not more than 1/4 turn past snug. I think the visible indentation is not horrible but I didn't peek at any other games to compare. I am fairly sure my TOM, which has the playfield empty right now, does not have those kinds of rings. But, if it doesn't dimple and pool I'm ok with that. This has been about 2 weeks or so, I can't recall.
3. Does no one on this forum have a durometer? Looks like they can be had for around $30 on Amazon. I might just grab one to test various playfields I have, just for fun. I am surprised we haven't talked about this before.[quoted image]
I would not trust a hardness tester that costs less than $10K. There's one (Instron) in one of our labs at the company I work for that was about $150K a dozen years ago.
For thirty bucks, go to Harbor Freight or use your finger nail.
per the designer, do not play the machine. That is If you don't want any play field damage,
Quoted from zaphX:
Do you think it's possible with no rotisserie? Pull and bag all the parts, swap playfields, then reload? Obviously with lots of 4k 60fps video to help answer reassembly questions.
I would totally watch a 20 hour playfield swap stream, with interest.
I've never used a rotisserie. A long single-sided work bench and several towels to lay the playfields on. Did several Eight Ball Deluxe and Centaurs. This was when they were on route making great money.
Quoted from solarvalue:
Just removed some posts on my Haunted House. You can see that the posts have dug into the clear and I have artwork missing. Currently on the phone with the guy who sold me the game 6 years ago, going to ask if he can contact the manufacturer and get me a new playfield...wish me luck.
Actually, you can contact the surviving entity of D. Gottlieb & Company: email@example.com
Stern wants to go back to selling to distributors that sell primarily to route operators. Virtually no warranty issues. Route operators repair their own machines almost immediately. Commercial route operators keep a proper stock of parts on hand without making panic phone calls or emails for one coil stop.
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