(Topic ID: 242867)

PoTC - Who has playfield cracking & wear around sling posts?


By harryhoudini

1 year ago



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Topic poll

“What kind of issues are you seeing?”

  • I have visible dimples but no chipping 45 votes
    22%
  • I can see chipping but haven't done anything yet 67 votes
    33%
  • I can see chipping and installed mylar, washer and/or larger star post 30 votes
    15%
  • My playfield looks fine (but I haven't removed the star posts) 31 votes
    15%
  • I removed the star posts and my playfield looks fine 15 votes
    7%
  • My game had clear washers installed from the factory 15 votes
    7%

(Multiple choice - 203 votes by 191 Pinsiders)

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Post #306 Sling Post Remediation Efforts #1 Posted by harryhoudini (1 year ago)

Post #307 Sling Post Remediation Efforts #2 Posted by harryhoudini (1 year ago)

Post #432 Washer and Starpost Solution Posted by harryhoudini (1 year ago)


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#1 1 year ago

****** Updated Conglomerated Post With Remediation Ideas, Pictures & Consolidated Information: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/potc-who-has-playfield-dimples-cracking-wear-around-star-posts-/page/7#post-4996369 - Read This First! **********

Personally, I feel like JJP isn't handling this situation in a
very customer friendly manner. As far as I know, after talking to
multiple game owners and JJP employees, no one at JJP has admitted
there is an issue or offered any response/resolution. Personally, I
have had communication with Frank at JJP whom I've sent pictures of
my machine and another random machine on route locally that both
have the same, fairly significant issue. While Frank has responded
there has been little follow-up and no tangible acceptance of an
issue or resolution. I have heard from others here who have had
similar contact with JJP without a real response. One poster noted
that they spoke with Jack about 3 months ago and he said they would
get a response, no response was had. Another has called JJP without
response. We know that JJP had an idea about this issue as they
clearly changed their manufacturing line to add in a clear washer
under the star posts at some point. While there are some methods
out there to try and prevent this issue and some to try and mask
it, there is no way to know what long term usage will look like and
how bad this will get. I can envision the worst case scenario as it
happened on my WOZ. I had several large areas of wear down to the
wood near the pop bumpers and winky target. JJP produced and *sold*
a decal set to cover these areas, but my playfield is now messed up
with stickers and will never be the same.

I feel like JJP owes us some response and resolution in the
matter and maybe if enough people come forward they will be forced
to comment. Attached are pictures of both my playfield and of the
playfield near me on route. Let's hear about your issue, see some
pictures and get a bit of an idea of how many have this issue.

Mine:
Example of one post, similar issues on others

Local Router:
TripleKnock (resized).jpg
Triple2 (resized).jpg

#2 1 year ago

Personally, I reported this issue to Shannan who forward my email to Frank who replied on 4/26 thanking me for the pictures and asking a few questions (were the balls worn, etc). I replied and didn't hear back. I contacted again on 5/2 asking for any updated information while also providing pictures of the locally routed game and on 5/3 Frank said he would get me an answer, but nothing has come in since.

#4 1 year ago

Here is a picture of the star post lip from my game, no washers were installed from the factory.

0429191432 (resized).jpg
#6 1 year ago

Definitely. Sort of harkens to the quality of the action button.

#7 1 year ago

FYI, I contacted Mirco with the details of this thread. Not sure if they are at fault at all, if JJP has contacted them, etc. but I figured they should be aware and maybe we can get any feedback they have.

#12 1 year ago
Quoted from Psw757:

Did you speak with someone?

I had a prior conversation going on with them on Facebook messenger so I just replied to that. They were very responsive prior so I don't have any concern about them not seeing it. If they will show up here and/or comment back to me we will see. I feel bad putting them in the position but I think they should know and be able to respond. If it is JJPs fault and nothing to do with Mirco I would think they would want to let everyone know that.

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from VillaThrills:

Guess I am the original reporting this a month after the game was released. Worked with Mirco, worked with Jack, neither offered anything to remediate.
Both sides on the bottom. A star post at each and some sealer seems to have helped.

Thanks for following up, I didn't want to call anyone out specifically but glad you posted your story. I don't know if it is time to start hounding JJP or not but bringing everyone together in this thread might be a good start.

#16 1 year ago

What kind of remediation efforts would be satisfactory? Someone mentioned playfields at cost, not knowing what that would be seems like it might not be of interest to everyone. Especially doing the swap. I can't really imagine what would help, aside from a new playfield. Decals in that area seem likely to fail and if the larger star posts start having issue we'll have bigger (literally) problems on our hands.

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

You should remove the tortuga vuk image. Sorry but vuk hole wear is normal. Especially on a routed machine.

Ah but that's chipping, not normal wear from a ball rolling over repeatedly. Seems somewhat related in that way.

#34 1 year ago

Sigh. Thanks for that info.

#59 1 year ago
Quoted from Tyamry:

I have a CE that I received on April 2, 2019 that has the
washers already installed.[quoted image][quoted image]

WOAH... those are HUGE! That is not what we have seen in other games, narrow clear washers.

#60 1 year ago
Quoted from Lermods:

no washers installed in my LE I picked up last week. game looks
fine from the factory, one post slightly off center, but no
cracks
or waves.

Have you taken off a post to see if it has a sharp edge on the bottom? Are you sure there aren't tiny washers under the posts?

#61 1 year ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I suggest changing the title of this thread:
1. Remove mention of "dimples" as that is a standard unavoidable
pinball issue.
2. Replace "star" with "sling" as the default sling posts are
the ones we're discussing, right?

Done.

Quoted from f3honda4me:

But that happens with VUKs if you don't maintain the machine
well or the machine just gets a ton of use like on route.
Look atthe HEP thread where he's restoring pins, or look at
most any
restore thread. I think you should focus on the posts issue
and not include the VUK pic you posted of a routed machine,
or it discredits your concern about the post issue. You're
taking
something not normal (posts issue) and combining it with
something
normal (vuk wear on routed machine) and trying to say it's
the same
issue.
edit: why the heck did pinside add a bunch of returns and format
my post all weird lol?

If you look at the VUK pic the wear is not where the ball is shot out of the VUK, it's to the far left side. It's also not ball rubbing over again and again, it's chipping of the artwork. It's also a game that's under a year old, should you really see this kind of wear that early on? I've restored several games that were much older and have had way less issue on VUK holes and the like. It's not a direct complaint but contributing evidence of some possible playfield quality issues. If we find out that the sling post issues are related only to the sharp lip and tightness (or the lack of a 3rd metal post) then great, but if this information helps steer the conversation towards a playfield replacement, perhaps, then I think it's valuable. Should you really have to cliffy protect your machine within a year to prevent playfield art from being removed?

#62 1 year ago
Quoted from gliebig:

So far so good on my TNA.

I was thinking about something similar, for sure. I just didn't have anything handy but I also didn't appreciate the look (having black neoprene squishing out under the sling posts) and worried that the height might also be an issue, but I suppose they squash down a bit. Do you have pics of TNA?

#74 1 year ago
Quoted from Psw757:

I agree, I sent this pic to JJP today and discussed this with
Frank.
He was really surprised to see that and I’m pretty confident
this is the culprit.

I sent that kind of pic to him 2 weeks ago, FYI.

#76 1 year ago
Quoted from gliebig:

Not my pic but this it what it looks like. IMO, they look better
than the large clear ones. Actually, the clear ones are more
whitish and really stick out. I didn't like the look of them.[quoted image]

Interesting, thanks.

#78 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

Totally normal. This is what happens when machines get thousands
or ten thousand plays on route. It's only hurting your quest to get
this resolved by looping in normal routed machine wear. I'm trying
to help but if you don't understand it I'm not going to keep
beating the dead horse then.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-star-trek-with-4938-plays-pics/page/3#post-3246685

10k plays would be 55 plays on average per day approximately if the game was there the day it came out. This place is open like 5pm-2am most days and the game has only been there a few months, if that. It's a smaller barcade in a smaller town and almost every time we go in there it is only moderately populated. I've been able to play the POTC alone without interruption many times, its not getting 10k plays in that time. I can try to find the owner and get a game count, my machine had the games cleared with the prior update so I don't know how many it had on route but it was built in Aug 18 I think, so it couldn't have been all that many and they already had to install the cliffy on the map hole due to damage. I tried to let the owner know of the post issue but not sure the message got to them. So, on mine 7 months of use maybe and playfield is cracking around the posts and the map hole is messed up... same thing on the game on route, I'd say those things need to be shared in the same post. Even if the map hole is typical wear (which I can't see how that claim stands up) it shows the playfield wear trajectory.

#79 1 year ago
Quoted from Psw757:

What did he say?

Thanks for the plfd pics…..Can you provide your game serial
number…..are the balls damaged?……how many plays are on the game?
All that data will get forwarded to engineering and we’ll get you
an answer.

Of course I wrote back right away with that info. Didn't hear back for some days, wrote back several days later asking for an
update:

Sorry for the delay…I’ll get out you an answer…thanks for the
pics

Didn't hear back, wrote again some days later with the pics from the routed game
at the barcade I go to (it's been there maybe two months, has same
wear, I posted pics in the original post here). Haven't heard back
in 10 days.

I don't really want to start trying to email Jack and get him
involved, but maybe I do? I don't know how that would work, it
sounds like he has already been made aware and I would assume Frank
has talked to Jack or at least their engineering team (he said he
would pass this along). Frank does report to Jack, as far as I have
been told, so one would assume this has been brought up. Maybe an
email would be a good idea at this point.

#83 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

Age doesn't matter. Number of plays does. Look at the ops forum
with the documented images of games on route. This kind of wear is
normal these days. Maybe they don't "make em like they used to",
but today, this is not unique to JJP. Your pins are not immune to
this, unless you are trying to say the laws of physics cease to
exist inside your pins.
I'm sure I'm wasting my breath here, but anyone here can go look
for yourself at all of the modern routed pins documented in the OPS
forum and see this is totally normal for a routed pin.

How many plays could a game have in 2 months at a relatively low volume barcade?

#87 1 year ago

Here is someone who'd know (PO of my game)

#104 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

Low play? Where was it posted it was low play? Can you link to the post where the number of plays this routed pin has was shown?
How many plays is low? I have over 1000 plays on my POTC and the VUK looks like new, yet I have the chipped playfield around the posts.

Still.. these pins haven't even been alive for a year, should there really be cracking on the left side of the VUK? It's a moot point I guess, no sense in continuing to berate it.

#110 1 year ago
Quoted from joseph5185:

I voted that my game had "My game had clear washers installed from the factory" but they weren't clear...[quoted image]

Yours is the only one I've seen like that so far, lucky you

No, no real response from JJP other than the "we'll get back to you" responses.

#137 1 year ago
Quoted from Marcdaddy:

I'm anxiously waiting for my Dialed In Le and down the road for a Wonka Le as well hoping I have no issues like this. I did have a major rippling in my Clearcoat of a N.I.B. Stern Gaurdians of the galaxy, my Distro contacted Stern and they sent me a new Populated playfield to swap out. Took me 15 minutes and I was up and running, I would hope Jjp would do the same..

HOLY SHIT. jerseyjack you hear this??

#138 1 year ago
Quoted from gliebig:

My experiment. I went from the small washers to.the larger clear ones. They are very hard so i wasnt sure if that was a good alternative.
I then tried just black rubber washers bet they bowed up a bit when the posts were screwed in. So I had this final idea..
I put the rubber one down with the large clear one on top.
We'll see how it plays and if the slings have any issues with this setup.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

I'm already having issues with the clear lexan (petg) washers being too tall, others reported the issue as well. The sling "hammer" (whatever that hits the rubber) pops out. Had it happen last night. Not the end of the world, but should not be an issue I should have to deal with. Don't see a way around it aside from trimming the star posts down the same height as the washers.

#140 1 year ago
Quoted from Tyamry:

Couldn't get it up with my fingernail. I guess I could use a knife or screwdriver!

Hi washingtonian I would REALLY be interested to know what is under those washers.

1. Are they hiding something? Was there a smaller indentation from the sling posts already there and this is covering them up?
2. Did they create an indentation on the playfield in the larger diameter of the washer?
3. Is there any rippling of the playfield in either diameter?

Wondering if you or joseph5185 would be daring enough to look Would be for science!

#141 1 year ago
Quoted from joseph5185:

If JJP is even half the company I was always led to believe they were, then they will resolve this.
They have to. Right?

I got stickers for my WOZ. 3 very large stickers... looks better now, but now I have a playfield with stickers. Apparently Stern will send out a populated playfield to solve a rippling issue.. car manufacturers will issue recalls and fix things... JJP seems to be pretty silent on this and I don't think it's helping matters. I don't want to cause ripples with them, I love the games and still want parts, but having a response and remediation would be nice.

Btw... I should say, the internet moves way faster than a corporation does. We definitely need to give them time to formulate a response. What gets my goat, and I think others feel the same, is that they realized the issue some time ago and started putting in place solutions for new games but said nothing to existing owners. Jack himself knew about this 3 months ago and nothing was done. It's not like we just reported this a few days ago. But, I'm definitely wanting to prevail on cooler heads to let them respond in a timely manner.

#144 1 year ago
Quoted from joseph5185:

I had the hammer come out just once with the metal washers.
It was the right side.
Like you said, no big deal. Just put it back.
But it “should not” happen...ever, right?

Correct. The posts should hold the rubber at the right height for the hammer to hit it without coming out. And yours had washers from the factory, so that's quite telling.

#147 1 year ago
Quoted from wesman:

I saw someone mention placing two mylar circles down on each post. I might consider that tonight.

I'm going to pull up my PETG ones and see if there is any noticeable issue with the playfield and then consider mylar or not. If there is no issue, I'm debating keeping it that way and dealing with the "hammer" coming out of the rubber. I don't have circle mylar or an easy way to cut it (but might just scissor it) but I have small squares, enough to do one piece under each.

One reason I think my PETG solution is good and might be better and not leaving an indentation is that the washer holes are the exact size of the metal posts inside the star posts. So I had to literally screw the washers on to the posts. Then when I screwed the posts into the playfield I was able to go very light on the tension. The screwed in washer was very tight up against the star post before putting it in the playfield so I think that is holding the washer up away from the playfield ever so slightly.

Shit, now I'm going to make a video on this whole fiasco.

#148 1 year ago
Quoted from pipes:

Guys, I'm sorry but having to resort to double washers under posts is absolutely bananas.
Reading through all of these JJPOTC threads is blowing my mind. Has there ever been a game with this many issues before? I'm truly stunned.
I was hoping to eventually buy a used LE down the road but there is a rolodex worth of crap to check before I'd ever pull the trigger on that deal. I just hope these issues don't continue to get worse for you guys. It's such a great game otherwise. The best JJP IMO.

Dude, you'll get a fantastic deal

#151 1 year ago
Quoted from Tyamry:

I tried again and it's not coming off. A screwdriver would do it but I am pretty sure the playfield would come up with it.

Dang, don't mess it up! But... another good data point. JJPs remediation in the factory to install metal washers now leaves you with a frozen washer on the playfield, likely to cause damage removing it. Not good.

10
#164 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

Why are we trying to remove it in the first place? A perfectly good pin, let’s rip it apart so we can ruin it? :p

What? See above...

Probably avoiding the hysterical nonsense.

You obviously don't care about the issue. Those of us who do seem to be interested in knowing what happened, why it happened and what JJP knew about it. This would be a way to know those specific questions I originally posted about a game which is unique in all the games posted here, only two having large metal washers. If his playfield is dimpled in a large washer diameter, is that not an issue? If he can't remove the washer, is that an issue? Would that be acceptable in another manufacturer? Was the washer covering up something? I think that last one is an important one.

#170 1 year ago

Ok, here are some updates on the clear washers. Long story short, put mylar down at least.... I have no way to know if that will help any more than anything else, but it seems like a trivial thing not to do.

There are definitely some noticeable "depressions" even though I know for sure these were only tightened down slightly more than hand tight.
Depression (resized).jpg

I had previously bought a kit of mylar from Marco (https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/66-MAS) and it had 4 circles that were a great size fit. It also had smaller circles that would work if you don't have the star posts installed (and smaller squares). I used squares on the other two posts that weren't as visible.
Marco (resized).jpg
Mylar (resized).jpg

While at it I noticed that one of my sling plastics was cracked, doh. They also had the scratched off printing where the 3rd screw scrapes on them. I used a black paint pen to touch it up since these are pretty toast anyhow and put a piece of mylar on the back. Not great, but I can put on the spare plastics when I want, I guess. I also finished the black conversion with black washers and painted the top of the screw.
Finished (resized).jpg

Not sure what to think about the depressions from the larger washers. Does that say anything about the finish on the playfield or would this happen on other playfields? I am refurbing a Jurassic Park playfield right now and aside from scoop wear it has no sign of depression. Same with a Theatre of Magic. Yeah, processes have changed, chemicals banned, etc... but is that the pinball enthusiasts crutch to bear? Does Stern have this issue, if not then why JJP? I haven't looked at my WOZ under any post, now I'm interested in doing so.

#171 1 year ago
Quoted from zaphX:

To their credit, if they glued a metal washer to the playfield you can be certain that sucker is not going to chip.

I think I can notice your sarcasm now. You should consider emojis

I didn't mean THEY glued it... I just mean it seems glued to the playfield now, that seems a problem.

#172 1 year ago
Quoted from joseph5185:

Yea. Fair enough.
Well... I’m sure he still feels bad about it with his involvement with JJP or at least I would imagine so.

I hope he doesn't feel bad. He's an invaluable resource to the community and has helped me on many occasions. I hope no one at JJP feels bad, really. I just hope they know it's the right thing to do to resolve this situation.

#174 1 year ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

I think the clear coat craze has us... like the matrix. We want no dimples, no damage after playing the machine for 20 years, yet we scream bloody murder when the seemingly 1/4” thick clear coat starts chipping around the edges. Well then just put the mylar down and forget the CC stupidity, or better yet, let them dipple and chip and keep right on playing, because a machine that “plays a game for the amusement of the player in exchange for some spare pocket change” is all this thing has got to really do, and you will find all these “good faith” remedies and remediations about playfields are just to silence the loudest squeaky wheels, because operators are not giving two shits the playfield is disentigrating around the star posts... now when the area in front of the flippers starts ripping off in strips, then they might bitch, but all the HUO collectors who are looking to keep pristine copies of these titles and play only 1 game a month on them are going to kill the resurgence of pinball if what they expect these things are going to do is anything other than fall completely apart as we play them. I stopped looking at my playfield damage the day I bring them home, because I know from here on out, the damage is going to be minimal in my HUO collection, and every flaw and dent is not a crack in the dyke that is going to get unbelievably bigger if I do nothing about it. Does the start button work? Flippers work? Coils work?, switches work?, plunger work? Does it keep score and take money? Then what’s the problem with it? Yeah these machines cost a fortune, you want them to be right when it rolls through the door, but expecting it to stay that way is ludicris thinking, imo. Lets slow this crazy train down a few clicks and take a breather, then discuss the reason star posts were conic in the first place, had three on every sling plastic for years, and hear comes jumpin Jack Flash and his JJP gas and now we have more issues. How about the issue of the newer silicone rings? I think there are more factors at play here, ring tension, mechanical advantage of a conic star post verses straight, the loss of the third post being stabilized by sling plastic, thicker clear coats, different compositions, bad qc on post bottoms, change in post shape and size. When you look at the collection of posts and vertical things penetrating the play field over the decades of pinball development and we have come up with all kinds of ways to secure things to a play field. I believe the confluence of post design changes, increasing clearcoat thicknesses, change in clear coat compositions,qc issues and owner expectations have sent us into this frenzy. I’m praying that CGC has got it right on my MB, but who knows?

Very good points. Many issues could be contributing, some definitely not JJPs fault.

We don't know what will happen with this chipping in a few more months, a few more years. One expects normal wear and tear, parts need to be replaced, a playfield gets wear areas. Do you expect that to happen in a few months? Will operators care when it starts chipping more and their resale value does down? I assume that is a large part of the calculations they make for profitability.

Should earlier purchasers be penalized because the issue wasn't known prior and later games have some "protections" installed? They paid for the same game.

-1
#176 1 year ago

Another thought for all of you naysayers. This is almost definitely not just isolated to the sling posts. The same posts are used in many other locations in the game and I can already see issues. I don't know how many out there have done a detailed inspection of their game, took apart enough to see many of these posts, etc. I took some pics that I want to crop and zoom in on but my phone died so waiting for those to transfer over. I can see at least one or two posts where there are, what look like, chips and many others (clear posts like the sling posts OR other metal posts like the lane divider) where there is clearly a huge depression and now "pilling" or gathering of clearcoat around the posts. One or two look like they are getting ready to chip. There are others where there appears to be no issue, especially on the BP playfield.

This could very well be a much larger issue that we don't even know the extent of yet. The games only being so old and probably many fewer being on route with many plays. Slings are probably showing the issue sooner due to the tension from the bands, the crazy motion of the sling and possibly being tightened down more.

This needs to be treated seriously.

-1
#177 1 year ago

Ok, here are some pics. Let me say, these are preliminary, gotta wait for the phone to charge so I can use the flash. I can surely see the puckering of the clear around the posts with the arrows. I felt it with my finger, it is a very distinct lip. The one metal post that looks like it has a chip, I think has a chip. I am not 100% sure. One of my metal posts by the right outlane has a metal washer under it, not sure if that was added at the factory or not. The T/E lane separator has sort of washers built in and I can see those puckering (phone died). I want to remove one of the other clear narrow posts and see how dug in they are compared to the slings.
Pucker-1 (resized).jpgPucker-2 (resized).jpgPucker4 (resized).jpgPurcker3 (resized).jpg

Ahh.. found a pic that had this in it already. Need to get closer up.

0514192002__1_ (resized).jpg

#219 1 year ago
Quoted from arzoo:

Another option would be to add a second rubber below the first. The lower rubber will stick out a bit more (because it's not sitting in the post groove) and you may have to adjust the leaf switch gap, but this is a common solution.

There are star posts with double rings: https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/03-8247-30

Not sure how that would affect game play. I mean, I looked at the sling "hammer" last night and it's hitting the rubber right in the middle so it's hard to see why it would come out. Might be the ball displacing the rubber enough when it hits in, pushing the rubber up since the rubber is now higher. Seems like we're band-aiding more and more just to have a way to mount these posts without screwing up the playfield.

#222 1 year ago
Quoted from delt31:

So I had to hunt to find this but I guess I'm impacted as well! What is the fix?
[quoted image]

There is no one official fix. It's sort of a "do what you think is best". It seems the most accepted response is to at least put 1-2 layers of mylar under whatever post you use. Some folks are using star posts (https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/550-5034-01) and some are keeping the stock posts. Some are putting washers under either post.

Here is some of the latest stuff I have done: https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/550-5034-01

#224 1 year ago
Quoted from delt31:

Postgate in full effect bc I don't play nearly as much as some guys do and still impacted. If I could see it during play I would be more pissed but still shouldn't happen.

I'm personally mostly concerned about it getting worse which was the main reason for doing anything. Secondly, concerned about resale value.

#226 1 year ago
Quoted from delt31:

Won't have to worry about resale right now as you're sitting on an LE 10.5k and above price only to go higher. Anyone selling for less is leaving money on the table.
Here's the pic of the culprit. Doesn't look too bad. Only one that has caused any damage. I put mylar around it as well. Might be replacement....
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Is there a lip or is it flat on the bottom? If there is a lip I suggest you replace it, sand it or use a washer. That lip seems to be 100% agreement that it is causing issues.

#230 1 year ago

Anyone get any tangible replies from JJP? I have not.

#252 1 year ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

If a game does have chipping heres what I would recommend doing.
1. With a small detail brush apply clear to damaged area, allow to dry
2. Mylar over top, 1-2 layers
3. Install starposts over thin plastic / lexan washers
I believe the "solution" above would minimize further damage and make existing damage not noticeable.

Thin plastic lexan source? I have washers from all the normal pinball suppliers and they are all thick. Wondering where to get ones like JJP used.

#267 1 year ago

I'm working on a cumulative post bringing all the solution options together.

#281 1 year ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Only Asking! As you were not the original buyer is it possible since the game was registered to someone else with warranty possibly thats why they are not responding to your service tickets? Have you gone after the original owner that had it on route yet?

Nothing JJP has said made any indication that a response was related in any way to which person currently owned the machine. In either case, it seems the same response is being made to original owners as well. But even then.. would you really think they should stand on that pedestal? The issue has no bearing on which person purchased directly from JJP or a distributor.

#289 1 year ago
Quoted from 3pinballs:

how about replacing the bad clear posts with ones that are flat with no bevel or sharp edges when I take delivery?

AT LEAST do this (or sand them down) if they have a sharp edge and add mylar. No harm, no foul.

#290 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

If JJP does offer a solution to owners it would be under warranty most likely.

So are you implying that because I did not buy the game directly from a dealer or JJP that I would not be covered?

#297 1 year ago
Quoted from gliebig:

Star posts with rubber washers...
Just played a few games and slings are not as active. I will have to adjust the switches. I think it's because the star post are wider and pulled the sling rubber just a bit farther from the switches.
I tried the skinny posts with rubber and plastic stacked. Slings still worked fine that way.
I like the star posts more so I'll give adjusting the switches a try.

Yup, that's sort of a known issue. Gotta adjust the switches if the position of the rubber changes. Adding that to my conglomerated post, thanks.

As a side note, I think I found a better solution to the washer. I am suggesting that a clear silicone washer (or, options in other colors maybe) would be a better material and look than the neoprene. I can't find a good source of a small amount of washers domestically. I reached out to titan to see if they are interested in helping with this. If not I am going to try sourcing some from China. I think it could be a product which can be used in any game to protect the playfield from posts. More to come.

Chipping (resized).jpgChipping2 (resized).jpgLarge JJP washer (resized).jpgRippling (resized).jpegSharp Edge (resized).jpgSharp Comparison (resized).jpegOther Star Post Rippling (resized).jpegTNA Neoprene (resized).jpgNarrow JJP Washer (resized).jpgMylar Circle (resized).jpgCE Green Star & Rubber (resized).jpegOther Posts Chipping (resized).jpgClear Star & Neoprene (resized).jpgDouble Star Post (resized).jpeg
#298 1 year ago
Quoted from gliebig:

Star posts with rubber washers...
Just played a few games and slings are not as active. I will have to adjust the switches. I think it's because the star post are wider and pulled the sling rubber just a bit farther from the switches.
I tried the skinny posts with rubber and plastic stacked. Slings still worked fine that way.
I like the star posts more so I'll give adjusting the switches a try.

Yup, that's sort of a known issue. Gotta adjust the switches if the position of the rubber changes. Adding that to my conglomerated post, thanks.

As a side note, I think I found a better solution to the washer. I am suggesting that a clear silicone washer (or, options in other colors maybe) would be a better material and look than the neoprene. I can't find a good source of a small amount of washers domestically. I reached out to titan to see if they are interested in helping with this. If not I am going to try sourcing some from China. I think it could be a product which can be used in any game to protect the playfield from posts. More to come.

#300 1 year ago
Quoted from cheshirefilms:

Mylar is a fake fix. I talked to the DFW pin restore guru Keith Holbrook and it won't prevent urethane clear from lifting from the substrate under heavy pressure of the post.
So really, a soft padding like rubber is going to be needed- especially if chipping/rippling is still occuring with wider playfield-on-post contacts. The big key will be, how to adjust the post height the best. Shaving/sanding down the single star post or perhaps those doubles from Pinball Life.

Good info. Maybe those double posts with just one ring on the lower indent might work.

Side note... Eric from Titan replied almost immediately and (coincidentally has a TNA with this issue) is interested in working on a solution with a silicone washer.

**Seems like that would have been a good solution from the factory...

#306 1 year ago

Conglomerated Sling Post Remediation Efforts

Basically I am trying to combine all of the causes and remediation (bandaids) for the sling post playfield cracking issues. Nothing here should be considered an absolute suggestion nor a fix, we are simply trying to mitigate issues as best as possible until the manufacturer takes a stance.

***** The Situation *****
It appears as though the plastic sling posts that JJP used in a subset of POTC machines, across all models, had a sharp lip on the bottom which, possibly combined with an over tightening of the metal threaded standoff post caused the sharp edge of the plastic post to dig in to the clear coat and playfield causing ripples and eventual cracking.

JJP Sharp Lip On Sling Post
Sharp Lip Compared with Normal
Cracked Playfield
Cracked Playfield

This issue is most prominent on the sling posts, possibly due to the extra tension that the posts were screwed down with (users reporting these hard to unscrew) or possibly due to the abrupt motion the sling coils cause through normal operation. This motion, and possibly the ball hitting the posts or rubber, may cause the sling posts to move which could contribute to the slicing/cracking of the playfield.

This issue could extend to other similar, narrow plastic posts on the playfield and even metal or larger plastic star posts. While these other posts may not have a sharp edge the clear coat on the playfield seems soften or may be more prone to rippling and bunching around tightened down posts.

Other Posts In Question
Large Star Post Already Used In Game Puckering

Age of game, number of plays and model (SE, LE, CE) does not seem to matter. The issue has been seen across a variety of ages and models and even newer games with the manufacturer installed washers have started to see some issues (although with less instances and severity).

Playfield Puckering

****** Manufacturing Changes? ******
Sometime during the manufacturing process of the POTC machines JJP apparently realized the issue (or due to being reported by pinside users) and made a series of changes to how these posts were installed. At some point the posts were either changed or fixed to not have the sharp lip on the bottom. As well, at some point, a combination of different washers were used on the bottom of the posts. Some users report narrow clear washers, some report larger metal washers, some report washers on 2 of the 3 posts. There does not seem to be any consistency except that this change was implemented somewhere near the middle of production. If you do have washers you are less likely to have issues with indentations, cracking and flaking of the playfield. Issues may appear later or be less severe but that does not mean you should ignore this situation.

JJP Installed Large Metal Washers on a CE
JJP Installed Narrow Clear Washer

****** Do I Need To Worry? ******
Long and short, yes. It seems like the playfields are susceptible to damage from pressure of items on the playfield. Even users who have put additional support under the posts have reported indentations from those support items after days of installation. Even if your playfield shows no signs of issue you should strongly consider some sort of remediation effort to protect your playfield.

****** What is JJP Doing About This? ******
Nothing, as far as we know. Several users have emailed or called to discuss the issue, sent images of their games and so far all responses have been of the "we are looking in to it" or "we'll get back to you" nature. In fact, one user reported this to Jack himself over 3 months ago and got, more or less, a non-response. If you haven't yet reported this issue you might consider emailing images of your playfield to Frank (Technical Support) at frank@jerseyjackpinball.com

****** What Should I Do? ******
A combined effort of pinsiders has resulted in a few distinct and possibly beneficial changes that may preserve your playfield. These are NOT fixes, merely ways we have all shared to help preserve what we have as best we can until a resolution from JJP is had.

1. Check your sling posts. Unscrew the nuts holding the plastic on, take off the plastic and rubber and unscrew the posts. If they have a sharp edge on the bottom it is suggested you either sand off the sharp edge or replace the posts. You can try replacing them with the same size or many others are choosing to use a larger star post found commonly on many other games (https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/03-8319-13 ... or choose another color).

2. Add mylar. One helper that many have agreed on is to at least add some mylar under the posts. Mylar is a clear protection film used in the game other places already. You can order sheets (https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/66-MFT) or pre-cut pieces (https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/66-MAS or https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/66-MSC). Users are suggesting using a punch to cut out the pieces, cheap sets of punches are available. Scissors, knives, etc all work. Clean the playfield with some isopropyl alcohol on a microfiber cloth and apply the mylar over the post holes. One pinsider has created a pre-made set that you can order and apply (https://pinside.com/pinball/market/shops/1170-pin-monk/02469-jjpotc-sling-post-mylar-ring-set)

Mylar circle installed under star post & clear washer

3. Add a washer. It seems as though any hard surface screwed into the playfield is causing indentations. Even with the slightest of pressure an outline can still be seen after a few days of installation. Maybe in combination with mylar the washers will make less, or no, indentation, results are still to be determined. Some have used PETG clear washers under the larger star posts (https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/31-34-GD) and have seen indentations. Another solution, which seems to be working well for others is a neoprene or rubber washer (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hillman-2-Count-5-16-in-x-3-4-in-Neoprene-Standard-SAE-Fender-Washers/3012346).

CE with rubber washers installed under green star posts
SE with neoprene washers under clear star posts

Be aware that adding anything under the star/sling posts may cause the sling "hammer" to push outside of the rubber and will require the glass to be removed and reset. Possibly using a double post (https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/03-8247-13) or shaving down the posts a bit may resolve this, not enough evidence at this point.

You may also need to adjust the sling switches to fire properly if you do anything to change the position of the rubber (for example, adding the larger star posts). General switch adjustment applies here (

).

Standard star post compared with double star post

Owners of TNA have reported similar issues on their games and have reportedly successfully used the neoprene washer solution.

TNA with neoprene washer

I spoke with Eric at Titan who is looking into producing a silicone washer that might give color options and even better protection.

4. Other things. Some have suggested, if you already have cracking of the playfield to paint on some clear coat to the affected area to prevent further flaking of the playfield. I can't comment on this and I haven't seen any data to support this but it seems like a plausible option.

5. Wait? - hopefully we'll hear from JJP and doing nothing might be an option if you don't want to change what the manufacturer did themselves.

****** What Else? ******
Well, as if this wasn't enough, it is possible that other posts on your playfield are also causing issues. There are a variety of other posts, some the same narrow plastic post, some larger star posts, some metal posts. JJP may have installed washers on one or more of these posts already, results are inconclusive. It is seen, however, that these other posts may also be showing signs of rippling of the playfield and possibly even some cracking like the sling posts are causing. It may very well be worth it to inspect other posts and decide if some method is appropriate to prevent damage from those.

****** What Are You Expecting To Happen? ******
No one has any idea. Some folks are suggesting replacement playfields are in order. Some think some fix or solution to the problem could be provided by JJP (perhaps a sticker). Others think that this isn't a huge problem and happens on other games. Personally, with others also agreeing, this kind of issue in this short amount of time with clear issues related to manufacturing that the manufacturer has passively admitted to by changing the manufacturing process to protect these areas seems to admit fault. I don't feel that my game should be less valuable due to a manufacturing defect which could very likely decrease resell value through no fault of my own. JJP has experienced similar issues to this in the past, most notably with the WOZ playfields and they had, in fact, produced decals to cover over the affected areas on the playfield.

The manufacturer of the playfields, Mirco, has been contacted (but has not responded) with a link to this thread so they are aware of the issues and can comment if they like. There is no indication where fault lies, I am not assessing blame other than to note that the manufacturer seems to have admitted to a defect with the games through their modifications and has not treated earlier customers properly. No notification has been made, no offer of resolution, no clear admittance, very little communication at all. I think that all most of the owners would like is some statement from JJP and a valid resolution offer. Playfields at cost may not make everyone whole, some are not able to install on their own and would take considerable cost or time to do this. However, a brand new playfield to sell with a game might make it valuable enough. Other manufacturers have been reported to send out fully populated playfields to owners with playfield clear coat rippling. It is possible JJP does not have parts enough to do this so remediation options may be limited.

*****Happy to add updates to this as people correct me and come up with new data.

#307 1 year ago

Conglomerated Sling Post Remediation Efforts

Basically I am trying to combine all of the causes and remediation (bandaids) for the sling post playfield cracking issues. Nothing here should be considered an absolute suggestion nor a fix, we are simply trying to mitigate issues as best as possible until the manufacturer takes a stance.

***** The Situation *****
It appears as though the plastic sling posts that JJP used in a subset of POTC machines, across all models, had a sharp lip on the bottom which, possibly combined with an over tightening of the metal threaded standoff post caused the sharp edge of the plastic post to dig in to the clear coat and playfield causing ripples and eventual cracking.

Cracking on playfield
Cracking around post
Sharp lip on post
Post comparison

This issue is most prominent on the sling posts, possibly due to the extra tension that the posts were screwed down with (users reporting these hard to unscrew) or possibly due to the abrupt motion the sling coils cause through normal operation. This motion, and possibly the ball hitting the posts or rubber, may cause the sling posts to move which could contribute to the slicing/cracking of the playfield.

This issue could extend to other similar, narrow plastic posts on the playfield and even metal or larger plastic star posts. While these other posts may not have a sharp edge the clear coat on the playfield seems soften or may be more prone to rippling and bunching around tightened down posts.

Other Posts In Question
Large Star Post Already Used In Game Puckering

Age of game, number of plays and model (SE, LE, CE) does not seem to matter. The issue has been seen across a variety of ages and models and even newer games with the manufacturer installed washers have started to see some issues (although with less instances and severity).

Playfield puckering

****** Manufacturing Changes? ******
Sometime during the manufacturing process of the POTC machines JJP apparently realized the issue (or due to being reported by pinside users) and made a series of changes to how these posts were installed. At some point the posts were either changed or fixed to not have the sharp lip on the bottom. As well, at some point, a combination of different washers were used on the bottom of the posts. Some users report narrow clear washers, some report larger metal washers, some report washers on 2 of the 3 posts. There does not seem to be any consistency except that this change was implemented somewhere near the middle of production. If you do have washers you are less likely to have issues with indentations, cracking and flaking of the playfield however there are users already reporting issues even with factory washers installed. Issues may appear later or be less severe but that does not mean you should ignore this situation.

JJP Installed Large Metal Washers on a CE
JJP Installed Narrow Clear Washer

****** Do I Need To Worry? ******
Long and short, yes. It seems like the playfields are susceptible to damage from pressure of items on the playfield. Even users who have put additional support under the posts have reported indentations from those support items after days of installation. Even if your playfield shows no signs of issue you should strongly consider some sort of remediation effort to protect your playfield.

****** What is JJP Doing About This? ******
Nothing, as far as we know. Several users have emailed or called to discuss the issue, sent images of their games and so far all responses have been of the "we are looking in to it" or "we'll get back to you" nature. In fact, one user reported this to Jack himself over 3 months ago and got, more or less, a non-response. If you haven't yet reported this issue you might consider emailing images of your playfield to Frank (Technical Support) at frank@jerseyjackpinball.com

****** What Should I Do? ******
A combined effort of pinsiders has resulted in a few distinct and possibly beneficial changes that may preserve your playfield. These are NOT fixes, merely ways we have all shared to help preserve what we have as best we can until a resolution from JJP is had.

1. Check your sling posts. Unscrew the nuts holding the plastic on, take off the plastic and rubber and unscrew the posts. If they have a sharp edge on the bottom it is suggested you either sand off the sharp edge or replace the posts. You can try replacing them with the same size or many others are choosing to use a larger star post found commonly on many other games (https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/03-8319-13 ... or choose another color).

2. Add mylar. One helper that many have agreed on is to at least add some mylar under the posts. Mylar is a clear protection film used in the game other places already. You can order sheets (https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/66-MFT) or pre-cut pieces (https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/66-MAS or https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/66-MSC). Users are suggesting using a punch to cut out the pieces, cheap sets of punches are available. Scissors, knives, etc all work. Clean the playfield with some isopropyl alcohol on a microfiber cloth and apply the mylar over the post holes. One pinsider has created a pre-made set that you can order and apply (https://pinside.com/pinball/market/shops/1170-pin-monk/02469-jjpotc-sling-post-mylar-ring-set)

Mylar circle installed under star post & clear washer

3. Add a washer. It seems as though any hard surface screwed into the playfield is causing indentations. Even with the slightest of pressure an outline can still be seen after a few days of installation. Maybe in combination with mylar the washers will make less, or no, indentation, results are still to be determined. Some have used PETG clear washers under the larger star posts (https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/31-34-GD) and have seen indentations. Another solution, which seems to be working well for others is a neoprene or rubber washer (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hillman-2-Count-5-16-in-x-3-4-in-Neoprene-Standard-SAE-Fender-Washers/3012346).

CE with rubber washers installed under green star posts
SE with neoprene washers under clear star posts

Be aware that adding anything under the star/sling posts may cause the sling "hammer" to push outside of the rubber and will require the glass to be removed and reset. Possibly using a double post (https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/03-8247-13) or shaving down the posts a bit may resolve this, not enough evidence at this point.

You may also need to adjust the sling switches to fire properly if you do anything to change the position of the rubber (for example, adding the larger star posts). General switch adjustment applies here (

).

Standard star post compared with double star post

Owners of TNA have reported similar issues on their games and have reportedly successfully used the neoprene washer solution.

TNA with neoprene washer

I spoke with Eric at Titan who is looking into producing a silicone washer that might give color options and even better protection.

4. Other things. Some have suggested, if you already have cracking of the playfield to paint on some clear coat to the affected area to prevent further flaking of the playfield. I can't comment on this and I haven't seen any data to support this but it seems like a plausible option.

5. Wait? - hopefully we'll hear from JJP and doing nothing might be an option if you don't want to change what the manufacturer did themselves.

****** What Else? ******
Well, as if this wasn't enough, it is possible that other posts on your playfield are also causing issues. There are a variety of other posts, some the same narrow plastic post, some larger star posts, some metal posts. JJP may have installed washers on one or more of these posts already, results are inconclusive. It is seen, however, that these other posts may also be showing signs of rippling of the playfield and possibly even some cracking like the sling posts are causing. It may very well be worth it to inspect other posts and decide if some method is appropriate to prevent damage from those.

****** What Are You Expecting To Happen? ******
No one has any idea. Some folks are suggesting replacement playfields are in order. Some think some fix or solution to the problem could be provided by JJP (perhaps a sticker). Others think that this isn't a huge problem and happens on other games. Personally, with others also agreeing, this kind of issue in this short amount of time with clear issues related to manufacturing that the manufacturer has passively admitted to by changing the manufacturing process to protect these areas seems to admit fault. I don't feel that my game should be less valuable due to a manufacturing defect which could very likely decrease resell value through no fault of my own. JJP has experienced similar issues to this in the past, most notably with the WOZ playfields and they had, in fact, produced decals to cover over the affected areas on the playfield.

The manufacturer of the playfields, Mirco, has been contacted (but has not responded) with a link to this thread so they are aware of the issues and can comment if they like. There is no indication where fault lies, I am not assessing blame other than to note that the manufacturer seems to have admitted to a defect with the games through their modifications and has not treated earlier customers properly. No notification has been made, no offer of resolution, no clear admittance, very little communication at all. I think that all most of the owners would like is some statement from JJP and a valid resolution offer. Playfields at cost may not make everyone whole, some are not able to install on their own and would take considerable cost or time to do this. However, a brand new playfield to sell with a game might make it valuable enough. Other manufacturers have been reported to send out fully populated playfields to owners with playfield clear coat rippling. It is possible JJP does not have parts enough to do this so remediation options may be limited.

*****Happy to add updates to this as people correct me and come up with new data.

#310 1 year ago
Quoted from WillSmuz8999:

I think I found a polycarbonate washer on McMaster Carr that appears to match the post diameter perfectly. It is not too thick, but is way better than a Mylar. This washer is 0.032" thick and the ID works well too! You have to buy a bag of 50 pieces, but they are only $10.00 for a bag. https://www.mcmaster.com/90940a413 I hope this helps.

Be careful adding just a hard washer, I did that on mine and it still started creating and indent. I have since added mylar under it. I want to move towards a neoprene or silicone solution soon but will probably still leave the mylar.

#312 1 year ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

First off... Thank you all for bring this to our attention.
I pulled my posts off after reading this and I guess I'm pretty fortunate. I can see the rings where the posts were, but it hasn't spread past that.
In my situation, do you feel that mylar below the posts and smoothing the post bottoms is my best solution going forward?
I would like to stay away from the star posts if I can, but really I just want to make sure this playfield holds up for the future. I really love this game and want it to stick around for awhile.
I'm sorry to see others pictures of the severe chipping. I sure hope Mirco / JJP takes care of this for you.
I'm certainly going to continue to watch this thread.
Thanks again for your documentation and research on this issue.
Brian
[quoted image][quoted image]

Dang, you lucky! lol. Well, good for you.

I'm just talking out of my ass here, so take it with whatever grain of salt you want, but personally if you don't want the larger star posts I would at least put mylar. Since there is puckering a bit I would probably try to source a neoprene or silicone washer that would go under the post. Since the post is so narrow you might even be able to get away with a silicone ring cut in half (https://www.titanpinball.com/image/cache/catalog/Silicone%20Rings/Single%207-16%20OD-800x800.jpg). I haven't seen any existing silicone or neoprene washers that small, so you might have to cut something either way. Personally, I would put mylar and a soft washer there no question, both are easily removed and seem unlikely to cause issue.

**AND you have the switch slot protectors, nice! Just got mine in, not sure if I am adding them to POTC or not, I see no wear in that area yet. However, my tortuga hole is rough (hole.. rough..) but it now has the cliffy on it.

#314 1 year ago

Well.. a few thoughts. One, I am pretty sure the original owner would help me with this, upstanding pinside member. Second, JJP has already warrantied an item from my game, to me directly.. so that seems like both they aren't so strict on this and, while maybe having no legal basis, sounds like that clause could possibly be invalidated by doing so..IANAL... or at least setting some precedent.

Also, how many people actually did this??

What must I do? In order to be eligible for coverage you must register your JJP Machine within 5 days of delivery on-line at www.JerseyJackPinball.com, by e·mailing Service@JerseyJackPinball.com or by calling
732-364-9900.

Are those who didn't going to get denied coverage?

But finally, I'm trying to be very amenable in this whole thing (I think most people are) in trying to give time and space for a response from JJP but I would not hesitate to create great rage and furious anger should there be any hint of a denial of remedy that other owners would be getting. I've done it before and I'd do it again, my reach would be extensive and thoughtful.

Edit.. this seems like it is also going to be a warranty issue for most owners:

The JJP "Bumper to Post" Limited Warranty covers every part in your new Jersey Jack Pinball Machine for a period of 30 days from the date of delivery of the Machine to its original Purchaser

Again, I doubt this is going to be part of the "warranty" but hopefully something a reputable manufacturer will stand up and take responsibility for to keep a solid reputation, prevent backlash in the community and ward off any sort of combined litigation.

#322 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

Made some key posts for you, hopefully it helps new people coming to the thread.

Ah thanks! I messaged Robin because I wasn't sure who was an editor.

#326 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

I actually do have a set of cliffys on the way (someday lol).

You know, Cliff was way responsive recently on some JP protectors I wanted and shipped them out like right away. I went and found my WOZ protectors elsewhere because I heard he was backed up, but seems like that's passed? Did you get a ship notification?

#329 1 year ago

Took more pics of posts with the flash today.. nothing more than I posted before really. There is definitely dimpling and piling up of the clear around some of the narrow plastic posts. Definitely some chipping around one of the metal ones and some also pushing up of the clear. It's not an issue with just the sling posts.. but will these cause issues over time? Hard to say. Here is a better shot of the worst two... it's a HUGE lip, hard to see in the picture but I'd guess it's about the height of a dime. (Yes, the playfield is getting cleaned soon!) I'll pull one of these off when I do the rubbers and clean to see how it looks underneath.

I guess I should mention that my malestrom ramp is broken too... cracked at the left entrance. The ramps are thin as hell compared to the TOM repro ramps I just picked up.

0515192042.jpg

0515192041 (resized).jpg
#331 1 year ago
Quoted from wesman:

I don't know that discounting someone's concerns is entirely fair. For an "average" person this is a monstrous purchase. So exploring every option available to protect it, for years of use and ownership, seems a pretty good use of time to me.
This is all upfront usage of time. It's not like anyone in this thread has been day after day compelled by this issue for years and years on end. Ideally, years from now, just regular maintenance exists solely.

Plus, I have nothing better to do.

Actually, I'll be consumed with my WOZ RR that is being delivered tomorrow! Who else has two WOZ? lol... SE is going for sale.

#349 1 year ago
Quoted from Psw757:

Seems many like the look of Star Posts. Can these easily be cut down precisely to the proper height to work with adjusting everything? This would be the ideal solution.

It's really not a huge deal to adjust the switches, especially if you have a switch adjustment tool
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/77-SWK

A few tweaks and you're set.

#351 1 year ago
Quoted from cheshirefilms:

Asked ZaphX if he's picked up the Lowe washers yet. Be great if they work perfectly with only switch adjustments. But the gummy ones+switch adjustments weren't a perfect fix, so not sure how this would do any better?
Right now find it hard to validate error free performance from the gent who doesn't seem to know how to adjust his own leaf switches.
I suspect *the* solution may turn out to be the double aperature starposts with the lower groove used for the sling rubber, plus the Lowe's washer.

Yeah, that double post might be key.. or shaving down the single post.

#353 1 year ago
Quoted from gliebig:

I don't think the double setting star post will make a difference. From what I've been experimenting with, it isn't the height that is effecting the slings but the width of the star posts that pull the rubber from the switches.
The skinny post with a lexan AND rubber washer were obviously higher and the slings fired normally.
I think either is fine. The most important thing, IMO, is having the rubber washer.

You think that is the situation for both the switches and the "hammer" coming out of the rubber? I was thinking the lower rubber was needed to keep the hammer from coming out. Maybe it's the overall diameter though. It's only happened once so far.

#356 1 year ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Has anyone thought to cut the clear down to the wood, remove the clear off the wood, bevel the edge then use epoxy to fill in the void and create a hard pad that locks the CC edge down and lets the post sit at original height, no adjustments needed? The epoxy could also be replaced with a polyester resin maybe, but either way, you use a harder clear “filler” that doesn’t deform under pressure as bad as the original CC? If I have a NIB sling do this to me in the future, I might try it on a single post and see what happens.

HAHA.. shit. That seems like quite the invasive surgery on a new game. I would hesitate based on the fact that JJP hasn't really responded yet. I suppose if I had a spare playfield I might try it on the damaged one. I know some people have done or suggested drilling out the hole so the post isn't sitting on clear/artwork. Personally, I am not going to try it. I am quite hesitate to drill a hole to add another spotlight near the right outlane (seems like that should have been there from the factory).

#359 1 year ago
Quoted from twhtalm:

As a TNA owner with near identical issues I can say that the rubber washers under the posts seemed to work out the best. The washers do protrude around the base a little bit but that's extra protection in my eyes. I compressed the washers down about half way and have had no further damage.
Does anyone know if the new playfields are clearcoated before the artwork is printed? I'm curious if a thin base coat could help adhere the artwork better.

Thanks for chiming in, good to hear about long term success. It really seems like what you are saying is going to be the accepted solution. I really want to get the silicone washer option going, especially with colors. But I am also stopping by a hardware store and grabbing some neoprene or rubber washers.

#366 1 year ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

Thanks for helping out. Just curious, what was Spooky’s response on these issues? Did they acknowledge? Did they resolve by sending out washers? Or did they ignore the situation?

In the TNA thread you can find some details, if I recall they acknowledged and offered some sort of fix (washers, posts, etc) I think.

#367 1 year ago
Quoted from Psw757:

If decals and stickers end up being the official fix from JJP, will this satisfy everyone?

Nope. There is no way a decal/sticker can fix this because the playfield is physically deformed. There is no way a sticker will blend in because there is no border or line to follow. Putting down a post on top of a sticker where part of the playfield is missing under would likely deform or pull that sticker. The replacement stickers on WOZ all had a place to "mate up" with so there is really no easy way to see they are there unless you know where they start and end. The POTC playfield in that area does not have anything like that so, even more than the mylar, there will be visible borders no matter what shape stickers are.

I think they need to offer a kit to prevent this on all games which has to include some sort of soft washer (personally I'm rooting for titan), probably some sort of washer/post combination (star post, who knows, maybe whatever the owner wants) and some sort of additional consideration (set of sling plastics, sling protectors, etc). For owners that now have irreparable cracked and chipped playfields there needs to be an offer of a replacement, somehow. We heard that Stern sent out a fully populated playfield to an owner that had this issue, which seemed to be a huge abnormality in the Stern world (we should all chew on that a bit). Is that what will make everyone with this major issue whole? Or maybe just a replacement playfield, or a discount on a replacement playfield even (cost). Maybe a hardtop? .. maybe another offer (radcals, replacement plastic set & decals, etc). Many other industries deal with this in a better way, wanting to keep customers satisfied and not have a bad reputation.

Can you see the stickers in this picture? There are 3, two are quite large and one about the size of a matchbox. Almost completely invisible, giving some due credit to JJP on this. How they will hold up, I don't know... maybe better than the playfield. They don't remove the fact that there is missing playfield under them (so you can see that under the sticker) and the texture is different. It doesn't bring back the value of a game with a more pristine playfield, but hey it looks better. But the key here is that the stickers have a place to blend in.

PS- I do fear the response will be either nothing or star posts and washers. I suppose if there are no other issues with the game re: chipping in the spots that I've shown then that could be enough as long as the solution works and causes no further damage. But I don't think that will be the case since there are other narrow plastic posts in the game and we've already seen ridges build up on those and larger star posts.

0516191821a (resized).jpg

#368 1 year ago

Here is a possible solution that could be shared with a bunch of people.

Buy one sheet of this: amazon.com link »
One set of these: amazon.com link »

Boom, a bunch of silicone washers. I have no idea if that material is soft enough or thick enough but I'd be happy to buy it and find out if others would want to chip in a few bucks for a few washers and shipping. Heck, I may just do it on my own. I wanted to find a clear sheet to do this with but all the clear silicone sheets are really thin, at least what I could find on Amazon.

My search for clear silicone washers (gaskets/flat o-rings, etc) came up way short. Can only find some on chinese import sites or from some asian country on ebay. I'd do the same, go in for a lot of them, if others were interested.

#374 1 year ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

If you wanted to go silicone, these are the same width as a star post. Don’t know if the inner diameter is too big that it would move.
ebay.com link
And they are clear.

Hong Kong... and doesn't ship to the US... but there are other sellers. It just takes weeks to get here, I have some stuff from DHGate on the way and it takes like 2-3 sometimes 4 weeks on the proverbial slow boat from china. Maybe it's different down unda.

#375 1 year ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

That’s what I was thinking. As long as these are not the sort of thing that was causing the reaction with the star post that zaphX was experiencing.

Unless it's some shit material (its from China who knows, but even if you buy in the US or Australia it's probably from China) silicone should be one of the most non-reactive things out there that we've talked about.

#382 1 year ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Yes.
For some reason the link to my original order now goes to a stainless steel washer which I did not use.
They were "Silicone Water Pipe Connector Seal Ring Gasket Washer 18x8x2.5mm (Pack of 40)"

OH DANG, I thought you used the rubber ones. I can't freaking imagine how silicone and plastic are reacting. I mean, titan rubbers are silicone.

#389 1 year ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Seems like these would work fine and simple.
amazon.com link »

But... black!

And what am I going to do with 100 of them!?

AND not prime!

Aw damn, too thick I think... amazon.com link »

Here, less than a gross of them: amazon.com link »

Fine, make all you want! amazon.com link »

#391 1 year ago
Quoted from wesman:

Do you feel rubber will be more absorbent, and less reactive chemically?

I have no clue anymore. I wouldn't have thought anything would react really. But I have zero formal education about any of this.

#410 1 year ago
Quoted from cheshirefilms:

I'm talking about for under the slingshot plastics to protect them from airballage and what not, not for under the posts..

1" is what I used
3/4" under the posts

0429191436a.jpg

#415 1 year ago
Quoted from gliebig:

So...when everyone is playing around with different posts/washers....how hard are y'all tightening the posts back down? I want to be sure I'm not over/underdoing it.

I went JUST past hand tight, seemed to be more than enough for the larger star posts.

Quoted from VillaThrills:

That is what I tried at first. Your mileage may be different but mine kept on getting worse and cracking further around the post. Eventually you could get to the point where it is all the way around and that would probably end there. It never got too far into the playfield that I couldn't cover it with a star post for the most part.
Interesting...on the poll right now it is just about 50/50. But you always assume that those that don't vote or see the thread, don't have issues.

One of mine is right on the edge of being too wide to be covered, so yes, better to protect now IMHO.

Even at 50/50 that's WAY too many.

#418 1 year ago
Quoted from wesman:

I'm kinda of the same mindset, being in the same position as yourself. What steps will you be taking?
I've got tools to cut mylar circles with. Not sure how much further I should go past that currently.

Do the rubber washers and star posts.

#420 1 year ago
Quoted from cheshirefilms:

Don't be foolish. This is clearly a design defect.
I waited because when I bought the game in April it was a November build and I figured a chance the clear had cured, and the lack of cure plus post pressure maybe was the reason for the situation on other games.
Even then I saw faint signs of rippling on my own, but thought maybe it came like that from factory.
It hasn't suffered cracking or chipping yet but after 100-150 plays of my own I saw my post clearcoats further ripple. So curing of the clear has nothing to do with it.
It's a question of physics. Urethane clearcoat which isn't really bonded to the wood anyway plus repeated pressure from plastic.
No more wait and see from this boy. I figure I'm one of the lucky ones, as I'll put down the Lowe's rubber washers, clear starposts, clear superbands instead of Titans, and that should be all she wrote, folks.
Protect now, or surely cry later.

Listen to this guy. ^^^

Would like to know how the superbands work out.

#426 1 year ago
Quoted from kcZ:

Star posts should be all that is needed... Assuming damage has not started already.

Not at all. There is irrefutable proof that anything directly contacting the playfield that is tightened down and has tension on it is causing divots and indentation. At minimum star posts and mylar, but even then it is very concerning.

#429 1 year ago
Quoted from kcZ:

I don't consider it a risk. No other games have garbage under the posts... Why should this one? The problem is the narrow base and sharp edge on the OE posts.

Wrong. TNA has this problem, documented owners using this fix (rubber washer) with success. The issue is the sharp posts and the playfield coating/finish/curing combined, it seems. Narrow posts are too narrow probably for rubber washers, but if you want it worth a shot. That is why everyone is going to star posts with rubber washers. Larger area, easier to use the washer, no sharp edges like the failed narrow posts and covers up any rippling or chipping that is happening.

#432 1 year ago
Quoted from delt31:

Does anyone have the links for starposts and Lowes washers readily available? If not, I'll scroll through this entire thread...

Boom
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hillman-2-Count-5-16-in-x-3-4-in-Neoprene-Standard-SAE-Fender-Washers/3012346
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/03-8319-13 (clear or choose colors)

Added 12 months ago:

To add some clarity most users seem to be suggesting the double star post is more idea. If you put the rubber on the lower rung then it is much closer to the original height of the rubber with the narrow post, see picture: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/potc-who-has-playfield-dimples-cracking-wear-around-star-posts-/page/14#post-5010042

Rubber - https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hillman-2-Count-5-16-in-x-3-4-in-Neoprene-Standard-SAE-Fender-Washers/3012346
Star Post - https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/03-8247-7

So the suggestion is from bottom up:
- Rubber Washer
- Double Star Post
- Lexan Washer
- Sling Plastic
- Washer
- Nut

Added 12 months ago:

PETG washers for under the plastics: https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/31-34-GD

#434 1 year ago
Quoted from kcZ:

Wrong back at ya

Heh, sorry.. getting a bit annoyed, we have enough evidence now as to what the issue is and what a temporary remediation is along with what doesn't seem to be working. Trying not to call it a fix because the manufacturer hasn't commented and we can't know the longevity of anything we are doing.

#462 1 year ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

Mine escaped last mine escaped the slings last night. Have not changed the posts. Sling strength down to minimum. So it happens before post modification.

Well that's an interesting datapoint.

#487 1 year ago
Quoted from Lermods:

Haven’t seen any issues with other jjp games. The trees on woz was fairly limited and only on heavily routed games. I have no cliffys on the hobbit and have no wear anywhere. Dialed in had cracking on the sim hole post, but a cliffy addresses that.

My WOZ had major cracking around all pops (state fair and all trees) and in front of the winky. All 3 major areas are covered by decals JJP produced, so they were fully aware of this issue and all these areas being a problem.

#488 1 year ago

I'm gonna throw this out there... I wonder if mylar under the neoprene washers might be a good idea. I wonder if the neoprene is soft enough that repeated shock from the sling arm and ball will give some vibration and make the star posts and washers move every so slightly that it will scuff or ruff up the playfield under the washers. I have yet to install, so just spitballing but maybe someone else can chime in. I'm just worried about anyone having long term effects (wider area on the playfield) from these fixes. I guess the TNA folks might know more on this, if anyone has pulled them up after having them for some time.

#490 1 year ago
Quoted from Psw757:

If there is any cracking or flaking I think Mylar is a mistake and calculus likely never be removed without further damage.
Don’t think these post will spin on the neoprene and don’t think the neoprene washer itself can spin as long as they are right.
The way this neoprene feels I’m confident tightening slightly more is ok without incurring further damage to the PF.

I was thinking more about "vibrating" than spinning, but good to get some input. I am thinking that if there is loose enough stuff on the PF that the mylar brings it up then it was going to come off anyhow. I'll try and pull some up when I get the washers in. In fact, I did pull one up after putting it down and it didn't pull anything new up, so not long term but one data point.

#494 1 year ago

Nice zaphx! Looks like I have some double posts to order.

On another note, here is a what a WOZ with the "same" posts looks like after 20k plays, no protection, no changes. And here is what the throne room hole looks like without protection. After 20k plays and 3 years this looks better than POTC after a few months! I posted a POTC on route that already has chipping (not wear, chipping) on the tortuga hole. Something is definitely, DEFINITELY wrong with these playfields.

0518191208 (resized).jpg0518191209 (resized).jpg
#499 1 year ago
Quoted from cheshirefilms:

We've already discussed in the club forum that this clear is different, softer stuff more likely to absorb man overboard drops and not crack. Though dimples are also much more apparent with the change.
Earlier games like Hobbit with "harder" clear had clearcoat/insert crack problems with airballage.
Obviously continuous slingshot post pressure was not taken into account when making this change.
Thus, the thing "WRONG" with the playfield is that the posts don't have recessed areas where the posts can sit independent of the clear. No more, no less.
And Lowe's black neoprene washers with double black star posts from Marco are the fix!!!
Pinball- always something...
*The gummies that ZaphX uses may work as well as the black neoprene but are controversial as they may chemically eat that star post plastic itself.

Good recap. Sounds like the drilling out really could be the actual fix before the playfield goes to shit.

#502 1 year ago

Anyone think this is an issue?
0518191545a (resized).jpg

(no, not the square mylar)

#503 1 year ago

So... who's thinking about doing anything to the rest of the posts on the game?

#505 1 year ago
Quoted from pingod:

Cliffy switch hole protector for sure on there.
Before it gets really bad.

Both holes now

0518191609 (resized).jpg
#507 1 year ago
Quoted from mtp78:

When the ball drops off the right side of the pearl and falls in the shooter lane...anyone using mylar in that area ? Seems like a hard drop off the ship to the playfield

There should be mylar there from the factory. I've considered doubling it up..

#510 1 year ago
Quoted from 3pinballs:

I think u have that cliffys backwards.... I could be wrong but look on his site

I think they aren't quite symmetrical (obviously one side has the "arch" of the connector piece, but I think one side is longer) so I arranged them to be closer to the top where the ball drops and hits. I didn't stick them down yet, so I could flip them.

#513 1 year ago

There's a dedicated thread, most people seem to be doing the neoprene washers.

#517 1 year ago

Fuck.

You guys DID see THIS thread, right? https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/guys-and-gals-i-have-a-problem-

Update... NOW I have a TAF in the back of my car and am going to trade it next weekend for a TOTAN with a spare CPR playfield that I'll be installing... so, yeah.

#521 1 year ago

I'm hearing rumors that JJP is talking about this topic, internally, presently.

#526 1 year ago

Yeah, I agree with zaphx. It seems like the overall, agreed upon solution is a neoprene washer under star posts. Option to use double star posts to lower the rubber if you want. Option to put mylar under the neoprene washer if you want. That's about it.

I think we have room to wait and see what JJP says and to watch other posts in our games to see how those continue to wear.

*There are key posts in this topic as well.

#528 1 year ago
Quoted from wesman:

But it's discussion...within...a dedicated thread about this subject.
This forum is pretty spastic in jumping from potential issue to issue, and we're literally not even a week into this thread. So in my mind, we have no long or even short term data for what's working for people and what isn't. That won't occur for months, at least, down the road.
As someone that is still waiting to decide mylar or no mylar, or even if star posts will create a larger footprint of pressure into the clearcoat, I am curious as to what choices people have/are making, and if there have been effects as a result. Case in point, when I initially placed starposts with what was, at the time, the chosen solution, I noticed depressions within three hours of installation. So with that in mind, I am curious about current results from users, and for me personally, not repeating what happened prior.
I think that's a rational and fair mindset to maintain.

I don't *think* I can create another poll within a topic with a poll already. It has the option to close the poll, but I assume that just stops entries but won't let me create another. If someone wants to make a post in this topic with combined info of solutions and who is doing what and such it could be made a key post.

#532 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

Outside of this post issue, what precautionary issues are you talking about? To date, I have done nothing to my machine including anything about the posts, and aside from a little chipping by the posts, it still looks new after 1200 plays. I wax about every 500 plays and change balls every 1000 plays. And even that's probably overkill...

Here's what I recall:

Protector wire sleeve on the BP wiring harness needs to be done, it sounds like. The VUK to the BP needs mylar where the ball drops. Cliffys are almost a requirement (tortuga hole gets beat to shit). The other star and narrow posts probably are going to need something done, I've yet to remove one but from my pics it seems like they are already causing issues. T-nut in map hole needs to be removed and cut (and a bunch of other crap has to be removed to get to this). Might need to add the narrow post under the playfield near the subway ramp (mine is missing it). Turn VUK power down and/or protect right opto from being bashed by the ball.

#533 1 year ago
Quoted from 3pinballs:

Well let's hope that we have a clear direction/solution from JJP this week. Agree with Wesman, that we don't know if what we're doing is going to work for the long term.
It would be great to get a service Kit from JJP in the new future or at least tell us what we need to do.

Based on the TNA thread and owner's posts it seems like it is a valid long term solution. I am not saying JJP should be off the hook but I think any worrying about it causing longer term issues seems to be alleviated by the TNA owners experiences.

#536 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

I haven't done any of those. And you'd never know it has 1200 plays. If I'm being honest, none of those are necessary (post chipping aside). People create too much worry work for themselves unecessarily. It's a pinball machine where you're flinging a steel ball around. Stuff is going to happen, and wear is going to occur. This is no different than any other pin in that regard and whether it's 5000 plays on POTC or any other machine, the wear is overall going to be consistently similar if you use a large enough sample size. There are always outliers or exceptions, but those are not the norm. For whatever reason, there seems to be excessive obsession on this game with wear items unlike any I've seen in other threads I follow.

I think you're being naive, or at least have a unique situation in your game. We've obviously seen proof of most of these issues from actual owners. We don't know for sure if the t-nut is causing ball nicks, but it seems plausible. We know for sure the tortuga hole gets beat to shit. We know for sure that the wiring harness to the BP can be an issue and it surely does not have protection from the factory. It's only a matter of time for some of these issues to creep up if they aren't prevented. We know that the playfield is way more susceptible to damage than other JJP playfields. I think it's pretty fair for owners to be concerned about these kinds of issues for a game of this value.

In a few years when POTC are for sale more readily on the used market do you not think that games without post playfield cracking will be valued more than those without? I'm buying a TOTAN and it seems that the cabinet has no fade, like many do, but if it did I could get radcals. Not OEM but solves the issue easily and fairly cost effective. If I want to buy a POTC without playfield cracking I probably would have few choices and it's not something that can be easily fixed. Even if, even if there was a hardtop, install is a pain. But... maybe that is a possible JJP resolution, who knows.

Personally, I think preventative measures shouldn't be scoffed at unless they are just plain absurd.

#544 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

My point is that of all the "precuationary issues" you've listed, aside from post chipping, have only been a reported case or few. Every issue someone reports isn't suddenly some wide spread issue that everyone is having.
Example: I cannot recall any reports of home use machines having tortuga holes getting "beat to shit". Routed yes, but routed is routed, not the same as HUO, and not relevant here. These "precautionary" issues have been a report here or there, not some wide spread issue everyone or majority is having. The post chipping is the only thing that fits that description right now.
And where do you get the idea that this playfield is "way more susceptible to damage than other JJP playfields"? Based upon what? Anecdote is anecdote, one or two outlier cases do not mean this is some wide spread issue.

I know, we differ in opinion..

Isn't routed just more use? Won't home games eventually see this use? It's a matter of game plays, no? Sure, maintenance might be different but I don't think that affects VUK holes aside from maybe ball changes. But not all home owners maintain the same.

The precautionary issues are a few, but how many people actually participate, read and comment on these very specific, particular threads? And how many of those people have actually put enough plays on the machine to see some of these issues, or had the issues from the factory more prevalent than others.

There is a 100% clear difference between my WOZ playfields(!) and the POTC playfield. WOZ has narrow posts. There is absolutely no rippling in my WOZ playfields. It's been stated multiple times in various threads that this playfield is different, has a different clear or something has been done differently. I'm not an expert, but I can see rippling and dimpling of the clear and I can compare how playfields look around plastic posts. For whatever reason they are different, good or bad. The post issue is definitely not an isolated issue, if that is what you were referring to.

#545 1 year ago
Quoted from mtp78:

I would like jjp to acknowledge the issue and make available parts to protect the game to owners. I emailed Frank and sent a message to Eric..no replies . Great way to treatment loyal customers who have bought multiple games

I don't like the non-response (although Frank has replied to me twice telling me an update was coming) but I am feeling like, if the situation is true they are talking about it, JJP will come through with a response. If anything I've learned that JJP is a good company but somewhat slow with response to any situation. Which maybe is a good thing, maybe they are researching and planning. They aren't Stern, it's boutique and there are some downsides that come with that.

#569 1 year ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

So as an Aussie I have to ask do you guys mean rooted?

Routed = on route = by an operator (op) of pinball machines who places their machines on a route = one or more bars/arcades/barcades/bowling alleys, etc that have arcade games & pins

#572 1 year ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

Thanks guys, Oxford certainly needs to update their dictionary.
Hey on another note, my hammer escaped it’s sling last night.
But it had happened with the normal posts as well.
Will keep an eye out.
If it is star posts, I don’t think it is the height, height difference compared to post with Jjp supplied washer was nothing (if not slightly shorter). I think it’s the width. Remember how we had to adjust the switches? They were about 1-2mm further out.
Hopefully it is a one off occurrence. Cos I don’t know how to adjust width.

Yeah, I think the width is what we basically agreed on. Not sure there is much to do about that. I suppose you could go back to narrow posts on a petg washer on a neoprene washer, lol. Maybe shave them down a bit to get the height right. It would look crappy but would keep the "diameter" so to speak.

#574 1 year ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

So how many sling escapes are you getting??

We haven't played a ton since the star posts, my machine has been in and out of being open and apart for various projects (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/eliminating-the-dc-pop-on-game-power-on) but only one so far. I've seen one or two other reports of a few escapes too.

#578 1 year ago
Quoted from cheshirefilms:

I have clear slingshot superbands on the way and expect they would ameliorate the problem if I notice it in my game. Can't see how the hammer would escape a tight super-band? Of course, I'm waiting on replacement sling plastics before I put it all back together.

Did you get sling plastics by themselves? Or did you order the whole set?

#583 1 year ago
Quoted from cheshirefilms:

Haven't gotten anything yet.
Oh, for any impatient/busy people out there, I put together a couple sling upgrade kits complete with the star posts, rubber washers and sling plastic protectors needed.
One set clear posts, other set blue.
Asking $25 shipped, free, same day shipping via first class.
If interested PM me

Ah, ok.. as far as I understood there was no option for just sling plastics. One of mine is cracked and they are both worn through where the screw is. I'm ordering an whole set of plastics (not all that expensive) to have spares. And a spare set of decals, mine are already wearing.

#586 1 year ago
Quoted from JY64:

The best thing that can be said about this thread is that it is not growing it was in the mid-70s poster the other day and has not changed

There are also 70 participating in the Tips/troubleshooting thread. Both were started way after the club thread. Out of the 400+ users in the club thread how many have a game, how many have returned to participate in these threads (are frequent pinside users), etc. Most of the poll respondents have issues, which may very well be skewed due to the nature of the topic, but the number is still quite a few out of how many actual owners are participating here. Also to mention it seems to take a bit of time for this to happen (early games more issues), the production line was changed at some point to include washers of some sort, etc.

I'd like to see JJP send out a survey to all owners, heh. That would tell quite a story, I bet. Ironically, Frank called me this morning on another matter (completely unrelated, I don't think he knew who he was calling aside from another unrelated matter) and I was too surprised to think to bring this up. Doh.

#598 1 year ago
Quoted from CUJO:

You peaked my curiosity and got me looking at my DILE and WOZECLE. Noticed on WOZECLE that the artwork does not continue underneath both slings and the posts do sit directly on bare wood.

Bare wood? While the artwork doesn't carry over on my SE or RR WOZ the posts look to sit right on the clear. They have no issues, btw... either game, both routed and many plays.

#622 1 year ago
Quoted from Lermods:

Mine has no cracking, or any other issue, came from latest run.

But... Preface that with if the posts had sharp edges, if you had factory washers and how long you've had it and played it. No one had cracking from the factory.

#623 1 year ago
Quoted from cheshirefilms:

That's what I was talking about, I have two lexan washer circles instead of the metal ones. Same concept, but clear instead of metal.

Clear is way better, even clear is somewhat visible with the gi lighting under the sling. Metal.. ugh! Mylar can't hurt either.

#626 1 year ago
Quoted from Lermods:

The one with the screw head, closest to the inlane.

The third sling screw, that will hit the underside of the plastic.

#627 1 year ago

3 year old RR posts and indentations. I almost put these nylon washers under the posts, but then I figured "why?" ... they are fine for the last 3 years, why bother now. Weird, these posts aren't sharp. And honestly, they feel heavier and more substantial than the POTC ones. I might be making that up, but that's what it seems like. But damn... look at that playfield, would be nice to have our new >$8500 games look like that.

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#628 1 year ago

If anyone wants part of what I have left, or just the rubber washers, I have a gross of them. These are all not double posts but if someone wants them they are yours, maybe just paypal me shipping cost. I have doubles on the way and probably 20 rubber washers left over. Also might have some lexan washers for you.

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#643 1 year ago
Quoted from cheshirefilms:

Installed black double notched star posts on the rubber washers. The regular star posts experienced a slipped hammer after only three games so I was like- umm, no. ZaphX mode- engage.
Had the option to keep the original posts with the JJP polycarbonate washers but they were so tiny they not cover the swelled clear. They are basically exactly the same size as the post.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Nice... blackout those nuts and screws on top

I am waiting for those posts to come in, along with some other color double posts to see what I can come up with. I am rocking the blue/clear right now but I think the amber might look better on top. Or, all black. Could look good with black rings too.

#649 1 year ago
Quoted from cheshirefilms:

Lol, I'll probably keep the rest factory. At least for now. I like mods to a degree, but usually only to the degree the original designer would take things.

Meh... I doubt they would put time in to choosing the right color nuts for various locations. Not to mention the cost of anodized hardware. I like to think I'm "plussing" the original design.

#650 1 year ago

Been replacing rubbers on my WOZ RR and when I got to the castle playfield I removed the narrow posts to pull the rubbers off the bottom (big fat short post rubbers). Low and behold... metal washers. Even though the posts weren't sharp on the bottom. And there was absolutely zero mark on the playfield. Then, I get to a post next to the doors which has a narrow nut on top, so I removed it last.. no washer. And what do I find under it? Marring and denting on the playfield. The irony.

#655 1 year ago

I'll update the solutions post with the double for the noted reasons. I haven't even put the rubber washers on mine yet

#685 1 year ago
Quoted from paynemic:

Back on topic?
For those without current damage, is there a translucent washer (neoprene?) option that would work the same? I’d like to keep the factory look if possible. Making a Marco order soon with double star posts.

No. I searched all over for one and there just isn't an easy source for a clear, soft washer. Titan may be working on colored options for us in their material, but I haven't heard any updates. You can buy in gross from China if you are that motivated, and I'm sure you could get some buyers locally, but I haven't gone that far yet. Black posts hide the washers

#690 1 year ago
Quoted from Nepi23:

I have not removed the posts on my slingshots yet, but they look fine as they are now (well, I have played only ca. 10 games on my NIB game, so no wonder they do not show any wear. The game is a November build.
However, in order to prepare for the chipping, please advice on which of the washers should I use? The metal ones or the clear ones (from playfield protectors)? The plastic ones seem to be a bit fatter, but smaller in diameter. They both are not much bigger than the posts, but I think it is a good thing, as I will be putting in the game also a PF protector and I am hoping that they PF protector would not overlap the washers. It might be a really close call though.
EDIT: I also bought a set of black rubber seal washers - might they be of any use? I guess they would be applied under the post (provided the post is ok) and the metal/plastic washer would then not be used?
(I do not have access to rubber washers, so I have to skip that plan and also the star posts would overlap the PF protector I think, so its a no-go.)
Have a look at the pics and thank you for any advice!
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

You want rubber washers, not o-rings or hard plastic ones. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/potc-who-has-playfield-dimples-cracking-wear-around-star-posts-/page/9#post-4999401

#696 1 year ago
Quoted from wesman:

He mentioned he doesn't have access to rubber washers.
Send him some HH!

Done.

Quoted from Nepi23:

Thanks. Would you consider using metal washers under the posts a better alternative to plastic washers?
I might have to get the star posts and rubbers, but as they are not readily available for me, I am trying to use an alternative, which I know not being ideal and not as good as the official fix - but however better than have nothing under the posts.

Don't use metal washers or anything hard, it will indent the playfield.

Send me your address in a PM. I'll see how much it is to send you an envelope with rubber washers.

#706 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

yeah but if you are not securing things hard to the PF... eventually those bolts are going to either bend or elongate the bolt holes too. The bolts need that lateral support the post gives it. Without being secured tightly, those posts will simply move.
Any give in a post (due to a soft base) is bound to lead to new failures over time.

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying. Are you suggesting that using the rubber washers is going to lead to some other failure or wear? I can already tell you first hand that anything hard dimples the playfield. And since the only option, right now, with cracked areas is to use a larger post the only logical thing I see is using a soft washer. It's not like they're jelly, they are quite stiff. With the washer one can put a good amount of tension on the bolts without denting the playfield (at least as far as we have seen, as far as the TNA people have reported). The TNA owners should be a good litmus test to see that it is a good temporary fix.

#714 1 year ago
Quoted from MK6PIN:

All the best for you Brian, and the others....it looks like the issues have been mitigated, but certainly not solved. Just took an inspection light to my WOZ as paranoia set in....no cracks (and have actually pulled the slings and many other things off the PF over the years). JJP has always had great customer support...hope the right thing is done here.......

EXACTLY. Thank you! I purposely kept from saying "fix" or "solved" because really this is all mitigation and illusion. Adding the star posts is way for us to feel less bad about spending so much on a game and having a bunch of cracks and chips showing raw wood. Even then we had to struggle to find a solution that doesn't mar the playfield even more. A fix is something the manufacturer would have to test and announce which gives known long term resolution. A solution is to make the owners of those games whole as no game purchaser ever thought "meh, if there are chips in the playfield within the first year of ownership I'm fine with that". No one in their right mind can argue that chips in the playfield are ok, especially for a `game this new. We have seen posts time and again, especially when comparing a game like WOZ from the same manufacturer and same post style, where this issue is not present. It is NOT only the sharp edged posts as other posts on the playfield are showing rippling of the clear, again not present on other JJP Mirco playfields. Sadly, the only real resolution is going to be new playfields and I don't see that happening.

#729 1 year ago
Quoted from cheshirefilms:

Imagine what a mint one is worth

Wouldn't know, mine isn't mint since it has chipping all around the posts

#744 1 year ago
Quoted from VillaThrills:

Were you successful in getting an offer for a pf at a reduced price?

Was anyone successful in getting anything (a meaningful response?) other than some tiny plastic washers?

I have a few promises from Frank for a response. Maybe it's time we start emailing/calling Jack?

#754 1 year ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I seriously hate to add to this thread because it’s already a shitshow, but...
My wife had a simple question while discussing the chipping issue. “Why don’t they clear-bra it like cars?”
That...actually struck me as a really good idea. Those things are thick, durable, and would probably affect gameplay less than a “floating” playfield protector would. In fact, it’s not all that different from the mylars already in place.
Is this a thing anyone has ever tried in pinball? Bad idea?
And NO Joseph, please do not take this as a suggestion that you strip your playfield and start applying XPEL to it.

What would you think the difference is between the clear bra material and entire playfield protectors? I think from a practical standpoint clearbra is supposed to let things bounce off it. I think you want something harder for a playfield protector. Either way, isn't that just a playfield protector? I have one sitting here for my TOM, seems like what you/she means.

Why would any of those things protect the playfield from sharp edged posts?

#774 1 year ago

So... how long do we wait for JJP to respond? Anyone thinking it's time to talk to Jack?

#776 1 year ago
Quoted from cheshirefilms:

Just got word that a new solution is coming from JJP for two new washer types including new posts with wider footprint washers for damage cases and instructions for install. Just chill everyone, the announcement should come soon.

Well that will be interesting. We know hard washers dent the playfield. Of course, we already did new posts with different kinds of washers...and instructions for install. Would be nice if the company would post this themselves, even the "coming soon" note, captive audience here and a simple presence could cull a lot of rumors and 3rd hand information. I'll wait to see..

#803 1 year ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

Seriously, these would fix it:
https://www.titanpinball.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=52
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Put the standard posts in the clear or colour of your choice and it solves the problem!!!!

How no one mentioned this up until this point is surprising! I wonder how that affects gameplay versus the larger star posts, which sort of keep the action of the original.

#808 1 year ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

I just checked out my Tspp. It had the 1/2” black rubber post protectors on one of the slings as I posted. I rested a ball against it, protector does not affect ball. Still hits sling first. I checked the pirate post next to stern post. It is similar height and thickness. Then put a protector on the Pirates post. Fairly tight fit. It is not going to push down on playfield to add extra stability but it will hide any rippling or chipping and it will not turn upwards like an oversized rubber washer.[quoted image][quoted image]

I hope that ball is a spare, old, unused ball!

#810 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

All it does is cover the area...and changes nothing else. What’s the point really... it draws far more attention to the spot that the original damage

Yeah, but it isn't anything putting more pressure in any wider diameter. I would have rather have done that solution than a hard, clear washer and/or star post.

#812 1 year ago
Quoted from wesman:

Are these the 1/2" post sleeves?
Would the tapered ones work as well or better? They seem like they are a combo of that and a washer.

Yeah, those are the 1/2". Same used on WOZ. Wonder if the tapered ones would look more odd.

#815 1 year ago
Quoted from wesman:

At this point, odd < safe with this wacky game.
Did the 1/2" work well with Woz?
Have you ever tried the tapered?

They are stock on WOZ in other locations, used around narrow posts.

#818 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

The issue is the posts digging into the clear. This won't fix that.

There isn't just one issue... The cause of the cracking is the post digging in to the clear. The cause of the post digging in to the clear is the sharp edge on the bottom. Putting a narrow washer under the narrow post seems like it may solve the sharp edge issue. Putting in a star post will hide the chipping/cracking. This solution (a wider rubber post) will also hide the cracking/chipping. Seems like part of a valid solution.

#821 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

It's not adding pressure, nor is it reducing the original contact point problem because the original post is still contacting as it originally did. This thing just sits AROUND the post. It's purely cosmetic... for damage that is incredibly hard to see in the first place.
It's like covering a fleck with a quarter.
You have your mind set on this 'hard' vs 'soft'... and keep missing that the issue is contact pressure, not 'hard' or 'soft'.
The solution should be like snowshoes... increase area to reduce direct force.

Obviously the rubber would only sit around the post and hide the damage. Fixing the narrow post with a knife edge on the bottom by grinding it down, replacing or adding a washer is obviously needed. But, adding a larger star post without a rubber washer created a wider dent in the playfield. This rubber is not covering damage that is hard to see, it would be covering incredibly visible and unsightly damage. You haven't seen all the cracked and chipped playfield pics posted?

The solution was to not have a sharp edged post. Now there needs to be a solution to hide the chips in the playfield, which the wide rubber does while letting you keep the stock post configuration and geometry. Seems like a win win, keep the OEM post layout and hide the damage. The narrow post should be a fine original configuration if it didn't have a sharp edge, other JJP games use this without issue.