(Topic ID: 242867)

PoTC - Who has playfield cracking & wear around sling posts?


By harryhoudini

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 2,984 posts
  • 217 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 days ago by MarZ_78
  • Topic is favorited by 63 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“What kind of issues are you seeing?”

  • I have visible dimples but no chipping 45 votes
    22%
  • I can see chipping but haven't done anything yet 67 votes
    33%
  • I can see chipping and installed mylar, washer and/or larger star post 30 votes
    15%
  • My playfield looks fine (but I haven't removed the star posts) 31 votes
    15%
  • I removed the star posts and my playfield looks fine 15 votes
    7%
  • My game had clear washers installed from the factory 15 votes
    7%

(Multiple choice - 203 votes by 191 Pinsiders)

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Topic index (key posts)

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Post #306 Sling Post Remediation Efforts #1 Posted by harryhoudini (1 year ago)

Post #307 Sling Post Remediation Efforts #2 Posted by harryhoudini (1 year ago)

Post #432 Washer and Starpost Solution Posted by harryhoudini (1 year ago)


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12
#1609 10 months ago

I haven't posted my experience with chipping yet but I think with the activity today it might be useful to share so people can form opinions based on more information. In fact, before all the activity in the thread today I had a conversation with someone at work telling them about my chipping issue, and in that conversation I mentioned to the person that there had been a lot of activity on Pinside about the playfield cracking issue in the past month or so but I prefer to keep my interactions with JJP private to give them a chance to work through it and respond to me. Also in that conversation I said I understand my issue is out of the warranty period so I know they don't have an obligation to do anything about it, however ALL I EVER ASKED FROM THEM FROM THE BEGINNING WAS THE QUESTION "WHAT DO THEY RECOMMEND DOING TO LAY THE CHIP DOWN AND MINIMIZE THE CHANCE OF IT SPREADING SO I CAN RESUME PLAYING MY MACHINE?" I don't think that's an unreasonable ask. I just want to take their recommended approach to the chip and then get back to playing my machine.

It wasn’t until my 2nd follow-up call in 4 weeks of no responses that they did anything, and that was to reach out to the playfield manufacturer for ideas. I have been very patient with them to give them time to provide even just minimal assistance with this straightforward question, but it just has not happened. IT'S BEEN 6 WEEKS NOW SINCE MY FIRST PHONE CONVERSATION WITH THEM AND THEY'VE HAD NO RESPONSE TO WHAT I THINK SHOULD BE A QUESTION THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO ANSWER - "WHAT DO YOU RECOMMEND DOING TO LAY THE CHIP DOWN SO I CAN GET BACK TO PLAYING MY MACHINE?" People on Pinside might have ideas about what to do, but I want advice from JJP since it's their business and their product.

Seeing the activity in the forum today has made me rethink my patience, so here goes:

Bottom line is that I do realize the terms of the warranty are against me. While I understand and accept that fact I'm still very, very disappointed that it's been over 6 weeks with no response to my question. I understand how they handle my and other people's issues are business decisions and they're free to make their choices. I also understand that their choices influence my future purchases (and there will be future purchases), so I'll be making a different choice when it comes to which manufacturer I buy the next machine from.

For me that's what it really comes down to is choices made by both sides and how each side feels about the choices made by the other. I'm not happy they've chosen to not provide a response to a very straightforward question on my issue. I'm not happy that the foundation of the game (the playfield) had an issue within well less than a year of ownership. I gritted my teeth and bought the replacement playfield in case this chip eventually gets worse or some other issues pop up, and I'm not happy they chose to have me pay shipping for the replacement playfield. The impression I've formed through my conversations with them is that it sounded to me like JJP is just outsourcing the playfield with nobody on JJP staff who has enough of an understanding of the playfield painting process or chemistry to know how that playfield is made or what could cause issues with the art and clear coat lifting, let alone having ideas on how to lay a chip back down. My impression is their staff is just more focused on the mechanical and electronic aspects of the games and they just blindly rely on their playfield supplier. My impressions may be incorrect, but it's what I've been left with after 6 weeks of nothing but a few mostly empty phone conversations.

It’s a shame really because the game itself is really so amazing with fun shots and features. But right now I have no confidence JJP can provide good service or make sure the foundations of their games (the playfields) are built to last one year, let alone several years, so I don’t imagine I’ll be interested in picking up another one of their games for many years. Again, they can choose to operate and provide service however they see fit, and I can choose to base my future purchases on how I feel about that.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinions but my opinion is that my machine should not have this type chip on the playfield inside of a year and, since it does, JJP should be able to give advice in less than 6 weeks on how to lay it down so I can move on to continue playing pinball. I also think it's interesting that the other machine I own is a used STTNG (originally from 1994) I purchased at the same time as my JJPPOTC and the STTNG playfied is excellent with no restorations that I'm aware of outside regular cleaning and waxing. For a machine that apparently has a bit of a reputation about maintenance issues, my STTNG has been better than my NIB JJPPOTC.

Again, I only post this to relay my experience so others can make their own decisions and form their own opinions about JJP's handling of a playfield issue even when the only thing JJP is being asked for is some advice.

Here's the timeline of my contact with JJP on this:

1) In late May I did a cleaning on my machine and discovered a chip with the art and clear coat lifting near the base of the movable post in front of the "I" lane. I had never moved the post and nothing except a pinball had touched it since it was delivered.

2) I'm the original owner of my machine. When my game was delivered in December I read the warranty terms and I registered my machine within 5 days of purchase. The game has been home use only. I understand the game is out of the warranty period but I contacted them because I thought they could provide help by offering a suggestion as to how best to lay the chip down to prevent future spreading and continue playing.

3) On finding the chip I immediately stopped playing the machine. After a couple weeks I got around to sending an e-mail to JJP with pictures of the chip. My e-mail said only the following: "I’ve seen that a fix kit is being issued for chipping issues at the sling posts on POTC. On my machine I have a chip lifting up at the base of the movable post near the “I” lane, even though I have never moved the post. Will the kit being issued also work on this “I” lane post? Also, can you recommend the best way to repair the chip and prevent further lifting? Should I glue it down or put Mylar over it (or do you recommend something else be done)? Attached are pictures of the chip. I’d really appreciate any advice you can give me."

4) Out of concern my e-mail might not be received, I called. Good thing I did because it turned out my e-mail had gone to their spam folder and was unseen. The phone conversation was mostly just gathering facts about the problem and there wasn't any real course of action laid out at the end of it, so I gave it a few days.

5) Three days later I called again just to get a better idea of what the course of action was going to be to resolve my question which, again, was essentially "What would someone at JJP do to lay down the chip and try to prevent further spreading if their machine had this issue?" I was told they'd check with people involved with production and they'd get back to me. Meanwhile I'd read on Pinside that a replacement playfield could be purchased, so, although I wished I didn't think it was a good idea, I asked to purchase one in case a patch for this chip didn't hold well and/or other issues popped up in the future. I paid their asking price plus shipping. I explained I still would like an answer to my question about how best to lay the chip down, but that I'm getting the replacement playfield in the event things get worse down the road or new issues pop up.

6) Two weeks later I hadn't heard anything, so I called to follow up. I had to explain my issue again, and then was told they hadn't heard anything from the people in the production area. Then I was asked what I expect to get out of this call. I said I understand is it's a 30-day warranty and I'm outside that, but what I'd like is just an answer to the question "What would someone at JJP do to lay down the chip and try to prevent further spreading if their machine had this issue?" I was told that yes, I definitely deserve a response to that question and they'll work to get one.

7) Another two weeks later I hadn't heard a peep, so I called again. I was put through exactly the same conversation as two weeks prior, even including the "Nobody in production has responded" and "What do you expect to get out of this call?" comments. I said again I understand my machine is out of warranty and JJP has no obligation to do anything, but I'd really appreciate it if someone could be my advocate on the question of "What would someone at JJP do to lay the chip down and try to prevent further spreading?" Again I was told I deserve an answer to my question and was told they might have to reach out to the manufacturer for advice on it, and they said give it a day and they'll get back to me. At the end of the next day I received an e-mail that they had reached out to the manufacturer.

5 days later I received an e-mail saying the manufacturer is on holiday. It's now been another 5 days since then and 6 weeks total since my first phone call with no answer to the question, "What should I do to lay the chip down and try to prevent future spreading of it?"

JJPOTC Playfield Chip (resized).jpgJJPOTC Playfield Chip 2 (resized).jpgJJPOTC Playfield Chip 3 (resized).jpg
#1614 10 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I guess the impedance mismatch here is that I am ok "meeting them halfway" because I want them to keep making great pinball machines. Not everyone in the thread is. I do respect your opinions and emotions on the issue.
I strongly suspect the $550 playfield offer is cost. If they were to give those free, to all 1000 buyers, that is a $550k loss.
I'm sure we all agree what a great game POTC is, otherwise everyone would be dumping them and moving on.
Do you want to make the best pinball game made in the last decade a complete financial failure for them?

I'd guess nobody wants any pinball (or other) company to suffer, but the reality is some companies bring it on themselves with their lack of quality, service, or both. It's up to customers to decide what to purchase, and purchasing often isn't a feel-good or charity action. Your post was written during the hour I spent putting together my story and posting it. My post unfortunately runs crazy long, but the summation is this: I have chipping at my movable "I" Lane post when the only thing that's touched the post is a pinball. The ONLY thing I asked JJP for was advice on how best to lay the chip down and try to prevent it from spreading so I can move on and play pinball. In 6 weeks now they've been unwilling or unable to respond (or both). I've been very patient keeping this to myself and giving them a chance to provide their advice, but that's not something I can get behind and support any more. A company in the business of making pinball machines should be able to provide a response to that straightforward question in less than 6 weeks (and counting).

#1656 10 months ago
Quoted from mrgregb123:

Very interesting thread.
My experience with JJP led me to write them off permanently, in addition to any NIB game with a Mirco playfield. It's become evident that Mirco playfields are rushed and prone to chipping. Of all the current pf manufacturers, IMO they are at the bottom of the barrel. But back to JJP....
I was an early Dialed In LE buyer. In short, my game had every documented problem the game was known to have - chips all over the playfield, rubber flakes everywhere from sub-standard rubber, ripped target on QED guy, torn cabinet decals, left ramp return ball flying out, etc. I wrote to Jack. He tried weaseling out by offering me RadCals (who TF wants this for a defective game?). I told him that he personally said to my face that JJP is the "Mercedes of pinball" which is why I bought the game and now I'm here to cash the check his mouth wrote. I told him that I wanted a new populated playfield. After spending $9000 on a pinball machine, sorry - I'm not doing a piece-by-piece pf swap on my dime. Apparently they didn't have the logistics to do this (!) at the time, so he refused. He then ignored my emails and calls for days. I called my disty, who's very well known and he [took action - don't want to say what he said/did with JJP] and they exchanged my entire game for a newer build. My disty is the man.
In the end, I got what I wanted, but JJP had little interest in doing this without [disty action], so I'll never buy another one again. I'm heartbroken to see that they are STILL dicking people around years later with legit defects. Lower your prices or overhaul your supply chain, JJP. This ain't it.

It stinks you had to go through that, and it stinks that issues with quality well beyond tweaks & fixes seem to have happened across different games and different years. It seems like the level of issues on the new machines goes beyond what a customer should really have to expect, and for the cost of these machines I don't think it's unreasonable to expect at least a little bit better build going out the door. I'm new to pinball ownership and I understand that these are machines and things will break or need adjusting, and that some tweaks, adjustments, & fixes might be needed on a new game. I get it. I have a ton of dimpling on my playfield and I've had to make tweaks, adjustments, and fixes to my POTC like everyone else. I've accepted it all, dealt with it, and continued playing. But when my playfield chips like this I think it's reasonable to expect the manufacturer to be able to offer advice on how to lay the chip down and minimize the risk of it spreading.

It now really seems to me like the company has a built-in tolerance & culture for shipping products without really trying to tighten up the quality issues, trusting that the "it's pinball" mentality will prevail and customers will tolerate it because they like the games. From a story like yours and now with the POTC playfield issue it seems they talk a good game about quality & support but unless it's just a minor issue they can address at little cost they're going to hide behind their very limited warranty term... except in my case where remarkably they've had 6 weeks where all they had to do was just respond with some advice which wouldn't have even cost them $1, yet they've still been unable to deliver any response. They're also charging shipping on the replacement playfields. Whatever someone thinks about whether or not the price of their replacement playfield offer is reasonable, I'd hope a vast majority of people would think the company should at least pick up the shipping cost on it. But they chose not to and that, along with their lack of response to my issue, leaves an impression with me.

Again, I went into my purchase with full knowledge about the warranty period & terms and they can choose to make whatever business decisions they want about how they respond to my issue and others. After this 6 weeks of silence I'll be making a different choice on the manufacturer of the next game I buy. And I'll say again my biggest surprise out of this is my impression that they don't seem to have anyone on staff who could answer a straightforward question about how to address a chip on the playfield. It's the foundation of their game and I'm guessing in general it's usually a lot more costly & time consuming to fix a playfield than a mechanical or electrical issue, yet they don't seem to have any information about it. Whatever other quality issues may go out the door on a new machine, I'd expected that a pinball machine manufacturer would have good working knowledge about playfields but that doesn't seem to be the case here. Otherwise I think I would have received a response by now.

#1665 10 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Last I checked which is rare JJP Did have a customer forum that Jen had setup. Not sure how a customer joins as I never found the need but curious if anyone here tried to communicate via the portal they already had designed specifically for their products and customers. Again I could be wrong but I believe that might be a better window to speak through. I know if I had a corporation an enthusiast forum is the last place I would field complaints. Might see if this option is open?

I've had six weeks of e-mail and phone contact with them through their designated support representatives. That's a direct line of communication they've set up for customers to contact them, and I think it's fair to presume it's the best "window to speak through" to them. Still they've had no response, just silence.

I'm not posting here to speak to them. They know my issue and they know I'm looking for their advice on how to lay the chip on my playfield down. I've communicated with them directly and kept it private for 6 weeks giving them the opportunity to respond in any way, shape, or form. No response has been received, so I'm now sharing my experience here on this enthusiast forum so others can know about it and take or leave the information as they see fit.

Their lack of response isn't due to a lack of them receiving my communication through the right forum. It's due to them just not responding or, based on my conversations with them and Wesman's post (link below) mentioning comments very similar to what I experienced, it's due to them not having someone on staff who knows about playfield manufacturing processes and how to address playfield issues. The first reason is horrible customer service and the other reason means they're blindly relying on a supplier with no internal staff knowledge about a critical part they're purchasing for the machine they're building. Either way it's not a good look for a company.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/potc-who-has-playfield-dimples-cracking-wear-around-star-posts-/page/33#post-5108978

#1670 10 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Totally understand your anger in this situation but I again ask. We Know they have basically 2 people on support duty with probably 3000 emails per day for parts, support, sales, lunch, whatever so we can assume these things sadly are getting lost. I ask did you Try or Anyone to post letters as you have on Their google forum? That would be permanently logged on their system. Did you even try? As upset as you rightfully are I would think you would exhaust Every resource to be heard. Clearly this thread has proven We are the only ones reading. Consider it!</block
/blockquote>

I've spoken four times to their support people on the phone over 6 weeks. Following each of my calls they sent e-mails confirming our conversation and their understanding of the nature of the issue and my request for advice, and Jack was copied on their last couple e-mails to me also. My issue is recorded in their issue tracking system. No other path of communication is needed. It's logged plenty well permanently on their system.

A Google forum will not get any better results than that. And again, I don't know if JJP is reading this forum and I really don't care. I'm not posting here to reach them. I've already reached them over the past 6 weeks. I'm posting here to share my experience with other pinball owners who are on the forum and who could possibly be interested in knowing about it.

It seems like you're trying to find a reason to say I should have done something differently to get a response so you can make the company look like it isn't doing a bad job at service. Wrong. All the things I've listed above should be more than enough comfort to you that the right communication has reached the right people, with no response received. It also seems like you're disappointed that the company is being criticized here for not doing a good job serving it's customers. Why not be disappointed more in the company for providing bad service?

#1671 10 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Totally understand your anger in this situation but I again ask. We Know they have basically 2 people on support duty with probably 3000 emails per day for parts, support, sales, lunch, whatever so we can assume these things sadly are getting lost. I ask did you Try or Anyone to post letters as you have on Their google forum? That would be permanently logged on their system. Did you even try? As upset as you rightfully are I would think you would exhaust Every resource to be heard. Clearly this thread has proven We are the only ones reading. Consider it!

I've spoken four times to their support people on the phone over 6 weeks. Following each of my calls they sent e-mails confirming our conversation and their understanding of the nature of the issue and my request for advice, and Jack was copied on their last couple e-mails to me also. My issue is recorded in their issue tracking system. No other path of communication is needed. It's logged plenty well permanently on their system.

A Google forum will not get any better results than that. And again, I don't know if JJP is reading this forum and I really don't care. I'm not posting here to reach them. I've already reached them over the past 6 weeks. I'm posting here to share my experience with other pinball owners who are on the forum and who could possibly be interested in knowing about it.

It seems like you're trying to find a reason to say I should have done something differently to get a response so you can make the company look like it isn't doing a bad job at service. Wrong. All the things I've listed above should be more than enough comfort to you that the right communication has reached the right people, with no response received. It also seems like you're disappointed that the company is being criticized here for not doing a good job serving it's customers. Why not be disappointed more in the company for providing bad service?

#1674 10 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Totally understand your anger in this situation but I again ask. We Know they have basically 2 people on support duty with probably 3000 emails per day for parts, support, sales, lunch, whatever so we can assume these things sadly are getting lost. I ask did you Try or Anyone to post letters as you have on Their google forum? That would be permanently logged on their system. Did you even try? As upset as you rightfully are I would think you would exhaust Every resource to be heard. Clearly this thread has proven We are the only ones reading. Consider it!

You say they are getting 3,000 e-mails per day for customer service and we can assume they're often losing track of things? Wouldn't that just be another red flag indication that the company is not providing good quality and good support? I'm sure your 3,000 number was an exaggeration, but if you say we should assume they lose track of support requests because they get so many of them, then I think that would be a big indicator of bad quality (number of requests) and bad support (losing track of requests). You've essentially agreed with it. So I'd say again, why not be more disappointed in their effort and less disappointed in the people who share their experience after giving them a reasonable amount of time to respond?

#1704 10 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I’m a JJP zealot for trying to get people to put down the pitchforks and use some logic, heh. OK. So be it.
Another pinball friend emailed me today and said I’ll never win over the pinside lynch mob. He’s right.
This thread is the equivalent of a political rally, bunch of people shouting loudly without using their heads.

It's not a political rally and it's not people shouting without using their heads, it's just refuting the notion (posted a couple of times) that people who did get in contact with the right JJP people about issues and got no follow-up response from them should have used a different communication tool to get them to reply.

It's an absurd notion and it's worth refuting because it seems like the only reason the Google forum suggestion is being made is to make it look like JJP might not have been made properly aware of the issue when they absolutely were, and to steer someone reading it to the wrong impression that yeah maybe the right people at JJP weren't aware of the issue so it makes sense they didn't respond. That's just flat out incorrect and it's worth correcting.

The issue isn't that the right people weren't directly contacted. The issue is no response after they have been contacted, even when the only thing (in my case) being asked for is advice. When someone tries to minimize that situation or make the situation look like it's probably different than it's being portrayed it's fair to expect a reply.

#1708 10 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

I said I didn’t Multiple times or did that answer not work for you as it wasn’t yours? Yes I bought a Playfield. I have 25 other Playfields for games was I only supposed to buy them because I had an issue or you told me it was ok to do so? No following your interrogation or it’s merrit?

Your response of "I said I didn’t Multiple times or did that answer not work for you as it wasn’t yours?" is very, very interesting. Hmmmm... Seems like that applied to you just a bit ago when you were told multiple times with specific examples that the right people at JJP were contacted and there was confirmation they're aware of the issue but still didn't respond, and somehow that answer didn't work for you because nobody went through a locked Google forum that isn't even publicized as being available by JJP? Very interesting.

#1715 10 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Eaglepin Please show me where I Ever said you did not contact them correctly or contact the right person? That’s HH’s spin. I simply suggested another way to pound on their door to air the frustration you rightfully have? How did Help turn to critiquing in any way? I’m not the cause of your issue nor Have I implied you didn’t have an issue. I Wanted to try and help. Yikes

I formed my own opinion on it without influence from someone else's thoughts. These quotes from your posts absolutely came across to me as criticism of not contacting the right people correctly:

- "Not telling you or others what to do but if you Believe you are not being fairly treated Go to the place they provided to communicate your concerns!"
- "I ask did you Try or Anyone to post letters as you have on Their google forum? That would be permanently logged on their system. Did you even try?"

Those quotes were replying to posts saying the right people had been contacted by phone, so they definitely came across as "You didn't use the right way of contacting them." Made no sense at all. The issue hasn't been getting in contact with the right people. The issue has been them not following up to provide a response after that contact.

I like you. But I'm sorry I don't believe you were only trying to help. The clear impression left with me (and I think maybe with others) is that you just don't like or want the company getting criticized. That's the feeling I get, and I don't feel it's right to try to leave an impression that maybe there was a flaw with the communication to the company and a different way could have led to a resolution by now. Again, the right people have been contacted, the issue is logged in their system, and no response has been received. Not because a different way of communicating wasn't used. Just because they haven't chosen to respond.

#1739 10 months ago
Quoted from wesman:

It's not even about sides. It's about companies, one's very proud of being American made, caring about and extending any and every effort possible to make their customers feel valued, whole, and wishing them to be continued customers.
I have no ill will towards anyone debating a different viewpoint. I just don't understand what it gains anyone, as high paying customers, to do so.
We all clearly adore JJP games. That's not the issue. The issue is how JJP has rectified/not rectified damage to their product via very normal use.
Let's remember the very first Pirates still wasn't even sold at this point a year ago.
We're all in this together. Love of JJP, and....disappointment.

So very well said and I couldn’t agree more. Everyone is absolutely entitled to an opinion and a difference of opinion shouldn’t be blown into thinking the other person is horrible or even wrong. Often just agreeing to disagree is the way it should go.

Different people have different feelings about issues and different approaches to trying to get them resolved and that should be okay. One person might understandably think the machine they paid many thousands for should be pretty much issue free going out the factory door. Another person with the same issue might understandably think that’s just pinball. Nobody is wrong though. I’m not looking for anything more than advice from JJP. Other people are looking for other resolutions. Nobody is wrong though. It’s just different approaches.

I think we all love pinball and just want it to be fun. Sometimes reality gets in the way of that for a couple minutes and people want to just share their experience of an issue they’re having with the game or the company. That should be okay also.

My two cents is that where feelings get elevated is when one person tries to explain away or minimize an issue another person is having. It’s fine to have the opinion that someone is overreacting to a problem or that they should be handling their problem a different way, but before writing that out maybe put yourself in that other person’s shoes and think about how you’d react if you got a message with an unsolicited opinion saying a problem you have isn’t that big a deal or you’re being unreasonable or wrong in what you’re requesting to have the problem addressed.

I’ve shared my experience with JJP and that’s all I was looking to do. Now back to pinball. I’ve got one machine down but I’ve still got another one running and it’s been getting a lot of great play as it takes on the extra attention it’s getting while the other one rests for now.

11
#1740 10 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I was relaying all this drama to a non-pinball friend and they had a very astute observation.
"it's darkly amazing to me how much effort people will put into organizing 'outrage' against a pinball arcade machine defect when we have so many more important causes in this world."[quoted image]

And right on cue there’s the minimizing and trivialization. I don’t think anyone has the feeling these issues compare to or are on the scale of other life issues in the world. Doesn’t mean they should be dismissed though.

#1802 10 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

I have to hedge my bets.

Yep, unfortunately that's the way I felt also. There was self loathing as I felt that way and I hated that I was coming to that decision but my rationale at the time was that JJP is looking sooooooooooo very unlikely to do the right thing and respond or do anything to provide support on the issue, so I might as well get it so I can do a full swap if my current playfield continues to get worse. Unfortunately it's just kind of my personality to be a bit risk averse. However, that same trait is going to keep me from buying another machine from them. But they still need to start feeling obligated to give reasonable support on the machine I did buy from them.

Buying the playfield doesn't prevent JJP from choosing to step up and do something (ANYTHING) to at least pretend to act like a company that cares about it's customers. For me the playfield purchase was a reflection of my lack of confidence in them to stand behind their product. I'm crossing my fingers that they change their attitude, but I'm definitely not holding my breath.

I don't go to the pinball shows/expos/conferences, but if I did I'd definitely be tempted to get a T-shirt printed that only had the letters JJP on it inside a circle with a slash through it to wear in front of their display area.

#1806 10 months ago
Quoted from EaglePin:

I don't go to the pinball shows/expos/conferences, but if I did I'd definitely be tempted to get a T-shirt printed that only had the letters JJP on it inside a circle with a slash through it to wear in front of their display area.

... and on the back of the t-shirt it could say

Just
Junky
Playfields

And there could be a picture of my I-lane post chip on both the front and back.

#1808 10 months ago
Quoted from wesman:

I think you're a nice and thoughtful person, from the brief interactions we've had, and how you've discussed your points here.
I'd rather hear about you directly speaking to any and every representative of JJP if you saw them at a convention, and tell them how vexing and disappointing this experience has been for you. You seem a sincere and caring person, and I feel that approach would better suit how you've expressed yourself here, as well as transfer your message in a way more likely to be heard and weighed, than dismissed and ignored.

Agreed. That was just venting and not something I'd actually do.

#1821 10 months ago
Quoted from wesman:

I guess I just feel, as much as JJP might have failed me, I feel I've failed them in being cross, speaking my mind in unflattering ways and such. Like not only have they failed my dream, but I betrayed it in turn.
Humans. We suck a good bit.

Yep, it’s not fun or enjoyable at all to discuss things in a negative way. This is my first time (and I certainly hope my last time) posting any sort of a negative review online about anything, and I didn’t like doing it and I don’t like that the circumstances were such that I felt like it was a good idea to do it.

I still think there are way more good people than bad, and way more good businesses than bad ones. JJP broke the trust with me by not communicating at all. Not by having a quality issue. By not communicating at all when I’ve asked for their advice. Silence, no response. Now it’s just time for me to walk out the JJP door and see if another pinball company can do even just a little bit better.

#1822 10 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

If everyone who told me they were somehow afraid of signing would sign, man.. It'd be crazy. And it's sad the many people won't because somehow they are getting taken care of. Would you all have signed that stern petition?

For me it’s just my personality that I’m not a petition or a let’s all band together person. Fear of JJP is definitely not in the equation for me. Just my personality and my approach to things. Sometimes that’s good, sometimes that’s bad, but it’s just me.

Right or wrong, I guess my thinking is I want to do business with a company that does things for the right reasons, not just when they feel backed into a corner. For me, even if JJP responds to the letter as they should it wouldn’t change my feeling about them because I feel they should have chosen to communicate earlier.

#1857 10 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if all this was due to rushing things into production without enough cure time.
I remember seeing a Stern factory video with racks of playfields stored flat, waiting for their cure date.

I have the same thought about the JJP production. I'd suspect they're probably doing just in time delivery and timing their playfield (and other part) orders as close to the out-the-door date as possible to sync up their payments to suppliers with the cash received from customers. Doesn't leave much time for testing/validating that what they get from the supplier is quality, and even if they do find a quality issue then they likely have to make the decision to ship 'em out anyway.

3 weeks later
#2176 9 months ago
Quoted from Pinballer67:

I'm with you on better sound, but LCD screen is often a waste for me and deeper code is better on Monday on BM 66 and a bore on Tuesday as I'm working away at inline drop target bonus multipliers and ripping the spinner in Fathom...
The PF issues for JJP need to be fixed or they will lose sales. The other manufacturers, it doesn't seem to be as big of an issue...I have a PoTC and have issues with the PF. I have a GoT LE and BM 66 and have no issues with the PF on either. The teensy chipping on TNA was fixed with rubber washers and was no biggie on my game/is finished/fixed. Had NO issues with AFM LE and ACNC re: PF.

Yep, and now Wonka seems to have a lot of the same symptoms. I'd guess when the POTC issue starting rearing up JJP already had their order in for Wonka playfields so it was too late to fix it for those machines. But if it pops up again in their next game then it'll be pretty apparent they don't intend to try to fix it. I wonder if the delay in the Wonka CE has anything to do with them trying to get it right finally.

In my conversations with them about my chip I'm still surprised they indicated their in-house personnel knew all about the mechanical & electrical aspects of the machines but didn't seem to have much knowledge about playfield matters (how to repair a chip, etc.). How can you order a key component from a supplier without knowing much about the processes involved with how the supplier makes it? Seems like a perfect recipe for ending up with bad materials in your product.

#2246 9 months ago
Quoted from mzhulk:

I am not understanding why you people keep buying games unseen and unplayed. I have stopped doing that years ago. Its not like they are running out of new pinball machines. I hope jjp never releases a new run of potc with the playfield problems fixed, it would make the original run value drop bigtime.

I saw and played a machine before ordering and mine ended up chipping. How would seeing and playing before buying have helped here?

#2257 9 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Cosmetic issues outside the path of the ball being the biggest possible problem you can have with a pin??
No - it’s a beauty problem. It’s not a game play issue... it’s not a reliability issue... it doesn’t keep you from enjoying the pin at all. Correct the paint if you want...Seal the chip so it’s edges are locked down... and you could keep playing forever. This isn’t flawed mechs that have NLA parts... or mechs that self destruct... or cabinets that fall apart... or PFs that come apart, etc. all issues certain pins in the past have suffered or been at risk for.
The analogy for this new issue would be like red (and other inks) ink used by WMS/Bally in their cabinets that ALWAYS faded. Dealing with PF repairs scares most... but it’s still just a cosmetic issue at this point.

There are chipping issues outside the slings and in the path of the ball on POTC, like the chip on mine at the base of the "I" lane mini post. This issue is about playfields on machines less than a year old. I'd guess most mechanical and electrical parts on new machines aren't NLA and they can be fixed or replaced so as to make any previous issues with them become unnoticeable. When playfield art has lifted and been damaged on a chip, I think it's much more difficult to repair it in a way that is no longer noticeable.

True, it does not impact the physical game play but it can impact the enjoyment of the machine. I think the cosmetic look of a machine is a part of the enjoyment of playing it. Not as important as shot type and variety, but it does impact the impression of a machine. If you put two of the same machine side by side, one having a chipped up playfield and one in good condition, I'd enjoy playing the one in good condition more because it's visually more appealing. Right or wrong, that would be my reaction. I hope my new POTC doesn't get to that point, but I now have a valid concern about the durability of this playfield and I don't think it's unreasonable for people with this issue to think it's not acceptable having it happen in a new machine. Playfields should be able to go more than a year without issues like this.

#2259 9 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

And yet, with a mint NOS playfield on standby, any concern over that wear could be resolved N years down the road, no?

But should buyers of new machines today feel the need to purchase a new playfield now for use down the road because of poor manufacturing in the clear coat and/or artwork? I don't think that's an acceptable quality level for new machines to be manufactured to.

#2265 9 months ago
Quoted from RichieWrench:

Hey -- ILLINOIS - Okay - Nice someone in my backyard.
I agree that there will be issues with playfields, But I agree with this statement - Its not like it chipping years down the road === Its a matter of weeks or few months - I just don't get and for me that make it hard to enjoy. In fact I would be scared to keep playing on it because I would fear that it would get worst.
Just me - That is why I am worried about the WWCF CE ones - Will it happen to those? Am I willing to take that risk? No - I am worried about this and I am hoping that JJP and others will somehow lets those out there know that they understand the issue and have resolved it and are willing to help those that have been effected by this chipping.
I think that those that have have paid out money for replacement playfields should get their money back or a credit towards a future game or something. Also a reasonable fix needs to be offered to those effected. But I have said this before and on tonight's podcast - So I am justing to hear back from Joe, which I am hoping will be by the end of this coming week.
Shit - They were suppose to reveal the details on the CE models by the end of this month -- Wait --- Sorry they have 6 more days left
I just know that there are alot of nervous people and this is going to be interesting.

Thanks, I've read your recent posts and I sympathize with how this is making you feel. Yep, with me it became more about the JJP response than it was the chip. I only asked JJP for advice on how to fix my chipping. They told me they'd get back to me, then I'd call two weeks later and they'd say again they'll get back to me. Same pattern repeated several times. All I wanted was advice on how to mend it. I knew I was out of warranty and they technically didn't have to offer any assistance. Did I think they should offer more than just the advice I was asking for? Yes. However they chose not to, and they were unresponsive to even a request for advice and left me with the impression that they felt selling a replacement playfield and charging me shipping for it was enough. That's not the type of business that will keep me as a customer.

I've thought it but I haven't written this yet, but since you're the first person I've seen mention it I've got to say I agree about what they could have chosen to do. If it were my business and my product I would have responded by saying "Here's a step by step of what you need to do to mend your chip, and we're going to send the materials required to complete these steps to you free of charge. This issue does not reflect the quality we strive to achieve in our product, and we want nothing more than to have our customers enjoy our machines. As a show of our commitment, we'd also like to offer you $X off your next purchase of a JJP machine."

The materials to lay the chip down would have cost about $20-$30 (superglue, toothpick, 1/2 pint minwax polycrylic, small brush, Novus polish, and a microfiber cloth), and maybe they say $X off a future machine is something like $100. I think that would have been a reasonable response, maybe not 100% satisfying but not nothing either. But instead they went with repeatedly not responding and only offering to sell a replacement playfield (and charge for shipping it). As a result, I'm voting with my wallet and not buying another machine from them.

#2267 9 months ago
Quoted from arzoo:

I doubt there are any. My POTC is pretty good with no chipping and only minor pooling around a couple posts. But here's the thing, I haven't inspected every single mounting point on the pin so I'm sure there's pooling elsewhere that I don't know about and I would bet it's the same for every other POTC. On the other hand, out-of-sight, out-of-mind.
At least the "pinball media" is starting to pick up the story. This Week In Pinball had a blurb on the playfield issues, but it was very superficial.

Gotta love that TWIP article where it says Jack said he’s out of the country with spotty service so he won’t respond to a request for comment until after he returns Sept. 8. Seems to be pretty consistent with their handling of the issue so far. No effort to respond or communicate.

#2310 9 months ago
Quoted from kidchrisso:

Progress has been made a little. I still dont have the big drop that was by the post but there is a slight lip that I had to use the back of my knife to feel. We will see how it progresses. Still way better than it was. I may repeat the process again this weekend.

Dual purpose pirate knife. Plunders and repairs.

#2367 9 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

unfortunately its a total pipe dream if u think their gonna replace the play field or take the game back.....JJP doesn't have the $ to even consider this as an option....never happen

That may be, but blowing customers off who have chipping and offering no help also shouldn't be an option for them. They could have said something like "Here are step-by-step instructions for what you need to do to mend your chip, and we're going to send the materials required to complete these steps to you free of charge. This issue does not reflect the quality we strive to achieve in our product, and we want nothing more than to have our customers enjoy our machines. As a show of our commitment, we'd also like to offer you $X off your next purchase of a JJP machine."

The materials to lay the chip down would have cost about $20-$30 (superglue, toothpick, 1/2 pint minwax polycrylic, small fine tip brush, Novus polish, and a microfiber cloth), and maybe they say $X off a future machine is something like $100. I think that could have been a reasonable response, maybe not 100% satisfying but at least it's not them just doing nothing and ignoring the customer's issue. But instead they went with repeatedly not responding to me and only offering to sell a replacement playfield (and charge me for shipping it). On this issue they did nothing to try to take care of the customer in a reasonable manner. As a result, I'm voting with my wallet and not buying another machine from them. Ever.

#2379 9 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I'm not disagreeing with you. Ignoring the issue, and frankly taking an arrogant attitude about the issue is quite disturbing. Jacks statement yesterday solidified my feeling as it was just a canned response that was reviewed by his attorneys. My point is they don't have the $ to adequately deal with this issue. Clearly they have determined that the loss in sales is less than the cost to do the right thing, which in my mind is provide a solution to mitigate the problem, and either give the customer an option to get a new play field or send theirs in for a play field swap. POTC has been out over a year and they've done nothing so its clear they won't doing anything with WW. Like yourself I'll never buy another NIB game from JJP....there is a chance I might purchase a nice HUO one as POTC and WW are both great games that my family would enjoy.

Yeah, I guess my main point in general is that I don't think people should get hung up on discussing/debating what would have been a reasonable response from JJP to people who have chips because why debate that point when JJP hasn't done anything. Why debate the adequacy of a response that hasn't happened in any way, shape, or form?

And I think that's the main thing for people to know. On playfield chipping for machines less than a year old JJP has deliberately ignored the customer, and that's really the main issue. I would think that regardless of where someone is on the "what should JJP do" spectrum, their ignoring of the customer on the issue should be considered unacceptable. You never know what issue they might try to handle the same way down the road.

Their first step could have been to even just pretend to care and to make a token effort to acknowledge it's not acceptable for the chipping to occur and to act/pretend like they want to do even just a little something for it. They could have offered a $10 rebate, a populated playfield, or anything in between those two. Do anything except nothing & no response, which is what they went with. They didn't even care enough to make an effort to pretend to care.

If they're willing to send people replacement mechanical or electrical components for issues, why couldn't they bring themselves to even make some sort of an effort that would have been the equivalent cost of doing that? Be creative and come up with some type of response. Anything. But they didn't care enough to even try. And I won't do further business with a company like that.

Also, I don't have any doubt that specifically crafting his statement to Wonka machines was deliberately done. It's just them holding true to form on this issue of trying to ignore it as much as possible, say they're a company focused on customers, but meanwhile doing nothing for the customer. There's no trust there.

#2386 9 months ago
Quoted from FryDaddy:

Ok I did some research and found the ones that did the clear coat LOL.

lol!!!! That's pretty funny. Maybe the discussion after the first 15 layers from the 4:33 mark to the 5:36 mark was the inspiration for the playfields

#2404 9 months ago
Quoted from RichieWrench:

Some dude PIST me off on the other Willy Wonka thread and I got ejected from there for 24 hours ....First ejection
So I have not post here for a bit and I feel lonely.
So .....What is the latest on POTC Playfields ...I will catch up
For what its worth my Richie Wrench Arcade shows no signs of chipping or wrinkles.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Those custom decals look really neat on that cabinet! Sorry to hear about the other thread. Unfortunately it seems like too often if someone has a difference of opinion they can't just chalk it up to a difference of opinion, and they feel the need to criticize the other person in order to feel better about their own opinion. Crazy stuff.

1 week later
#2547 8 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Any credits show up on any credit card statements?

Not yet on mine, but it can often take a week or two for it to show up from other retailers due to the credit card company processing time so I'm guessing this wouldn't be any different.

#2550 8 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

In this day and age it should be almost instant. The days of "settlement" are pretty much behind us. Online you usually can see a transaction, even a pending auth, pretty instantly. But once submitted to the processor should absolutely take no more than 24 hours to show up in your online banking. I just think they haven't done anything yet.
Wonder if people are still getting calls.

Should be almost instant but it isn't. I've had a few rental transactions lately that required a credit card hold at the time of rental which would be released after the rental was over. Even though I know the release was done instantly the credit didn't show on my account for over a week due to processing time.
Banks move quickly on collecting funds and not so quickly on making funds available the other direction.

1 month later
#2648 7 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Stand down. Do NOT start obsessing and ironing your playfield. This is not a thing you need to worry about.
Trust me, for your own good.

LOL. Yep, definitely needed to nip that in the bud. Could see what’s coming next from a mile away.

#2674 7 months ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Being "red flagged" at JJP had better not be a thing. That would be a serious PR nightmare if the public ever learned about such retaliation.
-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

Check this post out from someone who did the unthinkable and asked a question.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wonka-le-sling-post-chipping-/page/21#post-5172763

#2675 7 months ago
Quoted from WackyBrakke:

All companies eventually ignore their worst customers. Some customers just aren't worth the hassle.

While that can be true sometimes I don’t think it’s the case here. This is more about the issue than the customer, and I think JJP has handled this issue pretty poorly for all customers. And I think they’ve ignored Harry on this because his voice was very prominent (I think even primary) in bringing the whole playfield issue to everyone’s attention. And I don’t care if he wasn’t the first owner of the machine, the product was originally shipped with a defect so they should address it for any current owner.

I think everyone who had an issue with chipping and pooling and everyone in the future who hopefully won’t have an issue because of recent changes made to the clear coat process owes a thank you to Harry, myself included. Without the issue being pressed by customers like Harry I don’t think it would have been addressed anywhere near as quickly by manufacturers, if at all.

3 weeks later
#2734 6 months ago
Quoted from DarthSinex:

I've bought a full set of cliffys for POTC and there is a really small one that is a 90' configuration with two screw holes. Anyone know where this goes?

Here’s a link to the page from the website for Cliffys that has the picture with label for each piece. I think the one with two holes you’re referring to might be the map hole 2nd protector (goes on top of the main map protector).

http://passionforpinball.com/WIP/JJP-POTC-SET.JPG

1 month later
#2779 4 months ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

I'm sorry your game was defective. You were not under warranty. I don't know what else to tell you. Don't buy any more JJP products.
As to the class action lawsuit topic, that's never gonna happen. Not for this issue. It's been said before, the only people who win in a class action suit like this are the lawyers. Even worse, something like that could cause a company like JJP to go out of business. Then EVERYONE gets negatively affected.

My 2 cents, I think the main point is it’s pretty likely a lot of people who received a replacement playfield or playfield purchase reimbursement from JJP were not still under warranty when the issue rose up or was detected, so why treat Harry differently? JJP’s warranty for something like this only runs 30 days and this issue really only reared up in late spring 2019, well after games started shipping in October 2018. So it stands to reason JJP didn’t have an obligation under warranty to a lot of people who they either reimbursed or promised a replacement playfield to. JJP still decided on the playfield reimbursement/replacement remedy for those impacted machines anyway, which really made it more equivalent to a recall than a warranty issue.

Since those impacted machines were addressed by JJP whether or not they were technically still under warranty, then who owns any impacted machine or whether it’s still under warranty really shouldn’t matter. If it’s impacted the same as the others who weren’t under warranty then it should be handled the same as the others who weren’t under warranty.

2 weeks later
#2838 4 months ago
Quoted from jeffro01:

To be fair, not everyone has received the replacement playfields they were promised and some even got a follow-up email a couple of months ago asking them to essentially prove again they deserve to be compensated. While I agree with your general premise, I think you're being a bit willing to paint Jack in a more positive light than he's deserved. Until all who have been promised playfields are made whole again, I think this still sits out there as a dark cloud...
Jeff

Pretty much my view also. I think in isolation it’s not a bad response by JJP to offer the replacement playfields but I’m taking into consideration the whole timeline of it and how it all happened in my case for my decision to not buy from them anymore.

I went through a lot of phone calls and emails with them with zero response in June and July when all I was asking for was advice on how to repair the chip on mine. I wasn’t even asking for a replacement playfield but they still wouldn’t be bothered with responding to me for almost 2 months while my game sat idle. They finally ended up forwarding good (and very simple) advice from the playfield maker but it shouldn’t have taken anywhere near as long or as many calls (including some with some attitude from their side) to get it. It was just horrible customer service.

And Jack’s calls and replacement offer didn’t come until the first week of September, and even then it seemed like the only reason it happened was because Wonka sales we’re taking a hit. I really feel if Wonka orders hadn’t taken a hit JJP would have remained silent and done nothing. So, for me, their crappy service and unwillingness to address the playfield issue until Wonka sales took a hit more than outweighs what their final resolution was. I don’t feel like they really stood behind their product until they absolutely had to, and I don’t want to buy from a company like that. It’s a shame too because I love the design and gameplay of Pirates and would love to get another JJP if one appeals to me, but I won’t do it.

#2841 4 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

wesman

He didn't offer anything, it took what, like 6 months of prodding, posts here, a certified letter to 5 different people and many people calling and complaining. Even then it was all on the sly, if I didn't post here and other people didn't post to inform us I would never know that this was an option. He acquiesced enough to get people to stop complaining so hard by giving them the honor of paying 1/2 price for a playfield that should have been correct from the beginning. That's not an offer, that's a meager attempt and doing the least amount possible with the least possible financial impact without much care or concern for the customers spending $9-$12k or whatever on a toy.
Then it took more poking and prodding to get a reasonable, albeit not very fair, solution for the customer. And even then nothing was said. If no one here posted that they got a call from Jack there would be zero trace of this, like a fart in the wind. He sure as shit didn't call me and we haven't heard from anyone else who had the $550 playfield, have we? Did anyone get a refund? Because everyone sure should be entitled to one if they have missing paint and clear.
What he could have done is stopped the line when the issue was found. Figure out the cause and the fix. Let customers know proactively so they could do whatever JJP suggested for remediation or prevention and then announced ALL of that to the public. Instead they literally did NOTHING until they were called out yet they KNEW there was a problem!
For facks sake man. He isn't doing great business nor customer service, he's scraping by doing the least possible. That's shameful.

I did buy the replacement playfield in June because at the time I felt like it was my best option (actually the only option) for making sure a game I want to keep forever could be made better if/when the playfield gets worse. And even with me buying the replacement playfield they still completely sucked at delivering any information on how to try to resolve the chip on my existing one. And let's also not forget that at that time (June) they were also adding insult to injury by charging shipping for those replacements. I felt that charging shipping for the replacement playfield was pretty obnoxious and, again, an indicator of how they truly feel about customer service and standing behind their product. I got a refund for the playfield and shipping I think about 3 weeks after Jacks early September calls. Doesn't erase the bitter taste of the entire experience and my impression of the company though. It's gonna suck if Eric's next game is another great one because I'd love to get it but ain't no way in Hades I will.

1 month later
#2951 72 days ago
Quoted from KornFreak28:

I got my replacement playfield yesterday! It’s pretty stunning! I did notice the package had the “SE” letters on it. Are the SE and LE playfields exactly the same?[quoted image][quoted image]

I think they're the same.

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