Pirates of the Caribbean
Jersey Jack, 2018
Pirates of the Caribbean (CE)
Jersey Jack, 2018
Pirates of the Caribbean (LE)
Jersey Jack, 2018You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider Yelobird.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.
Quoted from harryhoudini:Anyone get any tangible replies from JJP? I have not.
Only Asking! As you were not the original buyer is it possible since the game was registered to someone else with warranty possibly thats why they are not responding to your service tickets? Have you gone after the original owner that had it on route yet?
Quoted from Ilushka85:I have a ce also... aren't you glad you can no longer order a ce replacement Playfield because they do not exist?
Define does not exist?? Seems like the one I bought looks real??
IMG_3283 (resized).jpgQuoted from Ilushka85:Does not exist on the jjp site for sale anymore
I'll sell you mine, no postgate either! lol $3,000 lolol JK
Quoted from joseph5185:Good idea! I definitely like how the doubles allow the sling to sit lower.
Will you have this done and tested today?
I don’t think I have these options due to the metal washers pre-installed, but may not have issue either. I’ll leave at that for now.
Your doing it again. You do not Have this issue!! Step away from the thread and play your game till the next epidemic arises. Lol
Quoted from harryhoudini:Here is a possible solution that could be shared with a bunch of people.
Buy one sheet of this: amazon.com link »
One set of these: amazon.com link »
Boom, a bunch of silicone washers. I have no idea if that material is soft enough or thick enough but I'd be happy to buy it and find out if others would want to chip in a few bucks for a few washers and shipping. Heck, I may just do it on my own. I wanted to find a clear sheet to do this with but all the clear silicone sheets are really thin, at least what I could find on Amazon.
My search for clear silicone washers (gaskets/flat o-rings, etc) came up way short. Can only find some on chinese import sites or from some asian country on ebay. I'd do the same, go in for a lot of them, if others were interested.
Seems like these would work fine and simple.
https://www.amazon.com/Rubber-Washers-Inch-Neoprene-MADE/dp/B01A29F1R0/ref=sxbs_sxwds-stvp
Quoted from Psw757:Anyone make a black star post?
Yes, pretty much anyone that sells pinball parts.
https://www.pinballlife.com/plastic-translucent-star-posts-1-116-tall.html
Quoted from zaphX:The playfield protector is not adhered to the art like a clear bra would be. Also it looks like different material; clear bra stuff is a thick adhesive plastic and can be “healed” with heat where the playfield protector looks like a loose sheet of something.
I’m genuinely curious how a clearbra’d playfield would play. I certainly love the stuff on the front of my car.
I suspect it could work. Granted I don't think it would be anymore or less protective then mylar used for years. The only fear I would have is unlike mylar which has the similar properties but I would bet the heat set would pull the art or clear coat off the playfield as steel hoods hold paint much better then wood. Mylar maintains its form when applied. I do like to see people thinking outside the box though!
Quoted from gliebig:What happens when it gets dirty and you can't clean it perfectly? I'd hate to try and peel that off.
While I still don't think it would work it actually peels off Very easy. I have installed this on all of my cars and it is close to bullet proof. Well, rock proof anyway...
Quoted from zaphX:I got an escaped sling hammer on my double stars last night w/ titans. I’ve put on the perfect plays and we’ll see how they do.
OK, not sure if this will help but looking at the mechanics of the slings it looks like a possible simple solution to eliminate the escape hammer. The problem is many are changing the OEM plastic posts to a larger diameter which moves the sling rubber ring 1/8" plus further away from the sling arm allowing it to sweep further down and under. My suggestion would be to add 1-2 washers under each of the 4 mount holes in the (item 2) crank mtg bracket. In doing so you would pivot the arm back slightly and push it's angle back a few degrees. I would also consider Stretching the (item 6) spring to give it more rebound. All theory but I suspect it would help.
Screen Shot 2019-05-29 at 8.53.15 AM (resized).pngQuoted from zaphX:[quoted image]
I so wish there was a Breaking Bad pin.... Blue ice multiball! lol
Quoted from harryhoudini:Well that will be interesting. We know hard washers dent the playfield. Of course, we already did new posts with different kinds of washers...and instructions for install. Would be nice if the company would post this themselves, even the "coming soon" note, captive audience here and a simple presence could cull a lot of rumors and 3rd hand information. I'll wait to see..
Still scratch my head every time I read this. ANYTHING screwed down to the playfied will leave a dent. Anything! I have restored many playfields and Every post, screw, guide, you name it leaves an imprint! Even the ball. As Cheshirefilms did, a simple metal washer should have been installed from day 1 as is used in many post locations and Hundreds of other games. Nothing new really. This all started with a hole punch type failed molded post. I did the same as Cheshirefilm and its perfect and will be for Many years for .08 cents.
Quoted from gumnut01:I just checked out my Tspp. It had the 1/2” black rubber post protectors on one of the slings as I posted. I rested a ball against it, protector does not affect ball. Still hits sling first. I checked the pirate post next to stern post. It is similar height and thickness. Then put a protector on the Pirates post. Fairly tight fit. It is not going to push down on playfield to add extra stability but it will hide any rippling or chipping and it will not turn upwards like an oversized rubber washer.[quoted image][quoted image]
Just making fun but that looks like a post "Cozy" lol. Does do what your after though congrats.
Quoted from gumnut01:Since you are using a playfield protector, do you need to worry about the rubber washer? Do you have any signs of chipping or ripples? I think you will get hammer escapes from the slings. Are you also trying to raise the slings so it hits the ball at the same level it would without the protector?
Playfield protector goes Around problem areas and creates its own issues in my opinion in time.
Quoted from Psw757:Not sure the post will sit flat. I’m sure as soon as I move that post that piece of clear is coming off.
I figured Mylar for now is the lesser of two evils since it is for the time being holding everything together.
I am NOT making fun but I must say some of you spend a lot of time analyzing your playfield. lol. I must be a lazy pinball player, unless the spinning disk falls through the playfield and the ball rolls in I play it as it is and never notice a thing. Again, NOT saying thats bad just making fun of the fact I must be really lazy not looking for scratches etc.
Quoted from Psw757:Well, you would have to be blind as a fucking bat to not notice a round hole that isn’t round anymore when your about to move the lane post into a damaged hole.
Scratches...pretty funny. I wish it was just scratches and dimples.
Not sure how you took this personally. I was making fun of ME being to lazy to look for issues. Hence why I even spelled out Not making fun. We all love the game just hate to see people get so tightly wound as if We damaged your game. It’s an amazing game sorry you seem disappointed.
Quoted from Psw757:Well, not sure what to say because all I was trying to do was move the i lane post to the other position and upon doing so the lower left third of the hole had a crack which is actually gone now to reveal a chip. Seems like a reasonable thing to try to do and wasn’t some fishing expedition in search of damage as you imply.
Not disappointed one bit in the game, love it, favorite game. I am disappointed in the poor quality control of what is probably the greatest game ever made and just hope it holds up for the long haul but likely won’t. Now thinking I may buy a couple extra pf’s at this point. Then I can play until there is nothing left of the art and swap.
Again no issues implied I think it sucks that such a great game would have so many flaws in the simple basic levels such as a Playfield. I understand your frustration and in no way was I poking that you didn’t have an issue. I simply shake my head at this point since one issue is overcome and sadly a new one arrives. No hate friend or fun just pointing out why I refrain from looking as I suspect there may be more. Best game ever does not meant lacking in frustration.
Quoted from Psw757:It’s all good. It is what it is at the moment and it really isn’t a new issue, there is just something not right with the clearcoat on many of these games unfortunately. I have games that are 26 years old in great condition and don’t suffer from this and I play them a fair amount.
I sincerely hope that those that aren’t dealing with this at the moment don’t have to down the line.
I noticed mine had a 1/4” washer under that post but your talking about the empty hole. No fix for that comes to mind. Not sure what they were called but it would be great if they installed those little plastic plugs in the unused holes like they did in the TZ pop bumper area.
Quoted from Psw757:I don’t like setting games up easier than the designer intended. That is my dilema.
Huh. Have you seen how well those guys play? Lol. Eric could set this game up without flippers and still beat me. I set mine up for my skill level. Overly easy
Quoted from wesman:J You seem a well meaning, informed, and valuable person to have around.
Tell my Wife that! lol
Quoted from wesman:Haha!
I've always wondered, is she on the board? And what aspects do each of you do, re regarding mod design and creation?
She's definitely on board. Corny to some but after 25 years of marriage its great to find interests or hobbies you both enjoy together. Pinball happens to be one of those. We try to collaborate on the concept direction but I tend to design/create the collaborative vision. She works the magic with final detail and execution so I can move on to the next crazy idea. Like excavating our house.... At the end of the Long day we still enjoy challenging each other to a few rounds of pinball which is alway great with a bottle of wine.
Quoted from KingPinGames:Have you seen him in person? Face for radio I'm thinking.
Just kidding Dave. You're in my top 2 favorite people in the mod couple household.
As usual you are correct Christopher. I try to compensate my lack of looks with hard work lol. I think thats what draws me to the underground hobby of Pinball. Everyone looks decent in a dark basement! I'm Guessing when you say of the 2 in the mod couple household your probably saying my wife and her sidekick Piglet...
IMG_0546 (resized).jpegQuoted from Psw757:harryhoudini that was a well thought out post and thanks for writing that.
And just to be clear, I’m not calling for blood with JJP or storming the castle with pitchforks! Lol
I just think those that have actual chipping and chipping in multiple places shouldn’t have to shell out another $550 + tax and shipping and then pay someone to swap the entire PF out on our dime.
Repairs are one thing but a swap is a little above what should be expected of the average owner. If I had to guess total additional outlay will be over $1000 to correct this.
They shouldn’t be making money or breaking even on this fix, these pf’s should either be free or at the most $250. Of they are $550 they should offer to perform the swap for the owners as they are better equipped for.
If we are talking 100 or less machines out of 1000 built it isn't that great of a number.
Hoping to see these update kits from the distributor I purchased in a week. Till then there be plundering to do.
Quoted from Psw757:So for those of us contemplating a new PF, is everyone happy with $550?
Works for me! I like a deal anytime.
Quoted from Psw757:Wouldn’t have expected anything else from the three usual suspects on here.
Hold up whats that response for?? You asked if I would take that deal and I answered???? If (like Most) JJP is going to offer a fire sale on playfields why would I not be interested. If I am one of the "three usual suspects" that are cheap asses then Yes I am in. Again, you asked a question no need to take a personal jab?
Quoted from harryhoudini:Well... at least we got a response from JJP. Not sure where/how that message was relayed. I've signed up on the JJP email list several times, never got one email from them. I emailed them several times about this issue, never got one update from them. I don't understand what their issue is with customer communication.
Personally, I appreciate that they are giving any sort of option on a playfield. Is it the "right" amount? No, as most of us agree it should be closer to the $300 range or whatever their cost is. They shouldn't be making any money on this. I don't think there are any other options at this point. No one is going to spend the time/money taking any sort of legal action to save a few hundred on a single playfield.
They are typically rather responsive anytime I have emailed or called and update via email or have master LTG call quickly. Is it possible as you are not the registered Buyer of the game you are not on their email list? I wouldn't take is personal if your not getting notifications as long as they offer solutions via the website.
Quoted from flynnibus:This is like saying Chevy needs to invest in Chip Foose (or any other custom car builder). You can't take a custom job like Kruzman's MULTIPLE week and months process and think the mass producers need to 'just do what he's doing'.
They are apples and oranges. Kruzman can't do 500+ PFs a month... he can't even do a handful in volume.
It's just pissing in the wind... to compare a custom, hand nurtuered, slow cure, multi-stage process with mass production. It doesn't work for cars... it doesn't work for pinball either.
Now That is a realistic statement. Granted I would love Chip Foose to do my Honda Accord! lol
Quoted from harryhoudini:So... who's grabbing a playfield? Anyone waiting to see if anything better happens or anyone planning on doing anything more?
I ordered one. Didn't need it but a deals a deal.
Quoted from Mike_J:Great deal after spending 10K on a machine.
Fair enough. Yeah I would have liked something for free but I love the game and I am not going to let this spoil my and my families enjoyment of this amazing game.
Quoted from gumnut01:Ok. So question to those who already bought a spare playfield months ago.
How do you know when the clear is fully set? Does the spare feel harder or more cured? Just curious if these playfields will become harder and more durable with time.
It may be too early to know I guess and how would one check durability anyway?
Sorry probably stupid questions.
Never stupid questions unless you don’t ask. Personally I take a fingernail or a wood nail and poke it in an inconspicuous spot. You can generally see how tough it is with a single poke. The CE spare Playfield I bought seems rather hard and flawless to me. Glad I opted for a spare as I suspect I will have these Pirates for Many years to come until they retire me to Davy Jones locker.
Quoted from harryhoudini:So would you say it's likely if we got the playfield and just let it sit around for a while the clear might cure harder and we won't have these problems? It sort of sounds that way and yeah, that's reassuring. Would be great if JJP was able to say that.
I never make promises I can't prove nor imply as such but the physics of clear coat are fairly straight forward. My feeling is if its sits around stored correctly it will harden up like a rock in 3-6 months. Just check it again before installation. There is a Reason the High end restorers like Mr Awesome HEP, HSA, etc have amazing results. They take their time! One thin coat, weeks to months to set rinse and repeat 3-4 times. All on just one playfield. You can't rush this process if you demand perfection. Thats why a high end restorer will take many Months to complete your playfield. Its perfect! In a manufacturing environment this is very tough to do like pinball.....lol
Quoted from harryhoudini:Sigh. I guess we will see how the Wonka fair.
After sending my huge clear issue under the pop bumper Shannan replied with the instructions on how to get the discounted playfield. So it seems like that is just the response now. Frank was copied on the email and didn't reply yet (likely not at all, that's the pattern at least). So that's the latest in terms of JJP replying in any different way.
I don't really know what to do. I mean, class action lawsuit seems like it fits this situation but the detriment to the community, JJP, costs, etc. Maybe a strongly worded certified letter supported by many community members might make a difference?
?? A class action lawsuit???? Don't feel like thats a bit over the top for the circumstance? Sorry I believe in doing things right but that might be a little bit strong in this case. Heck many fine people lost Millions to DP and last I checked they didn't have a game or try to take the company down. To each there own I take No side just seems like a bit of a tough threat.
Quoted from harryhoudini:I'm not suggesting it, just trying to figure out next steps, if any. Do we just roll over and accept what jjp has offered? I'm asking the community. I think a joint letter is a reasonable response.
If everyone says ok, this is cool, then great. I'm easy going enough that I'm ok with accepting the situation. But it doesn't sound like that is the case. Plenty of people have expressed their displeasure with the response.
I mean it's obvious you have an allegiance, so would you be critical?
For my own curiosity watching your awesome shop job on your POTC as you bought this game used from an operator would you PM me how many plays and where it was that they had it on route. Just evaluating if this is a 1000 play issue or 10 so I can monitor my game. Privately is better as it may hurt your case if public.
Quoted from harryhoudini:Curious, we sort of discussed this in this thread before. How many plays in lets say 8 months could "hurt my case"? I mean how many possible plays could there be and how many plays in 8 months should a game be able to sustain without these issues? I'm pretty sure I already posted it but I don't recall, I will check my game (oops, I didn't back it up before the update, lol).
Edit - I wanted to add that I don't even know why this is a discussion point. The games are all less than a year old, right? We know there is a defect from both the playfield maker and the game manufacturer, it's pretty clear and JJP has admitted the post situation is a problem. They've admitted that the playfields should not chip by offering discounted replacements. The only question that really remains is if the offer is sufficient to make those who have issues whole. That's the intent of the law, at least, is to make people whole. Should my game be worth less than someone else who bought at the same time, has similar usage and doesn't have a chipped playfield?
I only ask as I had never seen it noted. You are correct it doesn’t matter. I asked as it could help others (which is what I think you are shooting for) understand what can happen and where in X amount of games. If your game was on route at a busy amusement park (jk) and had 10,000 plays that would help others assess urgency that’s all. I know the prototype near me had Many Thousand plays on it (trust me) so depending on where they routed it might be a good data point for the threshold of time=wear. Not in Any way discrediting your mission simply assessing a variable which I am betting you had when you bought the game. I know that would have been the first thing I checked.
Quoted from gumnut01:So if we go for the extra playfield, the consensus is that the printing is not adhered to the wood that well? That’s why the artwork chips away. Otherwise if it was just clear than clear would chip but artwork would stay. I guess the thick clear does not help the situation. But it’s like the bond is stronger between the layers of clear and the printing, rather than the printing and the wood.
Going forward, do we get the extra playfield or are we just setting ourselves up for the same problem again?
I guess if we do go for it, keep in original packaging and lay down flat? If we keep it for years like this can it go off? Some have had bad experiences. I would like to keep for a number of years as insurance if my playfield gets worse.
When I do replace, rubber washers under all posts and don’t over tighten.
Thoughts? I know I am chasing my tail, but a lot of money if it is not a guaranteed fall back or if I can damage the replacement by storing incorrectly or for too long.
Thanks.
While I suspect no answer will be a guarantee I believe the art issue is more of a suspect opinion than a consensus. My Opinion (no guarantee lol) is the base of the clear is strong and bonded to the art like nails (permanently bonded to the art). It's the top thick coat that is soft and needing time to gas over and harden. In my opinion if you opt for the replacement and keep it in the really nice box they ship it in, in 6 months (like a fine wine) she will be ready for the high seas! Just do a nail test or other if you want to check on it under the apron area of the playfield. Truth is nobody will know for sure for years if any of this works when playfield swaps happen but my guess is like most time can Cure all wounds (or woods). lol As for rubbers etc, replace as normal just use common sense in how tight you reassemble and enjoy that fun ass game!
Quoted from harryhoudini:The can activation time is 2 days printed on the can. I had a can in my fridge for 2-4 weeks and it still worked. If you put it in the fridge you can at least get a week out of it.
Hmm I did not know that thanks! I have had 3 cans of this and feared starting the project unless I was certain I could finish in hours. Thanks man!
Quoted from mjruser:Is there a consensus to the best fix for the slingshot posts? As a future WW owner, I'd like to know.
Thanks,
Mike
On the 6 games local I have played I did not see an issue. However if you wish to add a safety a simple nylon washer from any Ace Hardware will work nicely and only cost a few pennies. Congrats can't Wait for our Wonka to arrive soon!
He asked about Wonka, I answered his question. Yes Wonka.
Quoted from mjruser:I'm sorry I only made it through 1/2 of the posts and then spent the majority of my time combing through the photo evidence. Which led me to believe it was ALSO a playfield issue as it's more than just the terrible star posts. There are issues beyond the star posts, that we wouldn't expect to see on a machine this new.
Darn..sad to hear Marco is as unresponsive as JJP on this issue.
Ok just for clarity its Mirco not Marco they are awesome! lol Hate to drag anyone else into this accidentally.
Quoted from Psw757:I had zero hammer escapes in close to 300 games played since installing regular star posts ordered from Marco.
I think it’s a trial and error fix. Although JJP engineering recommended the std stars as was sent in their fix kit.
I did dial sling power down a bit as that is a contributing factor to the damage.
Do you recall off hand what you dialed them down to? Mine seem ok but every little bit can't hurt as a precaution. Thanks.
Quoted from wesman:I ended up dropping mine to the lowest possible. Not sure if that's 12 or lower. I figure if post impact and stress is part of the issue, why not lower it completely. It's not like the hammer is *poofing* the sling gently.
Hey, theres no "Poofing" for Pirates! lol
Quoted from Psw757:Just took a look for you, 16 has been working great since I installed the std posts and washers.
Off to see the Stones!
Thanks!!! Cool show have a great time!!
Quoted from wesman:They sorely need a public affairs person. Someone to represent them via media tweets, emails subscribers, moderator of their own forum, and deliver statements regarding issues like this.
There is zero transparency with these issues. They come out via customer complaints, and then are somewhat acknowledged in almost a hidden way by JJP.
Their public relations and service components are very, very poor, considering how stellar their products are designed. They excel at design, have fumbles in production, and then entirely have barely any reliable or reassuring customer relations department. Frank, Steve and LTG are always fantastic and kind, but these are technical agents. JJP needs media and consumer based representation on a level they currently don't have in place.
Last I checked which is rare JJP Did have a customer forum that Jen had setup. Not sure how a customer joins as I never found the need but curious if anyone here tried to communicate via the portal they already had designed specifically for their products and customers. Again I could be wrong but I believe that might be a better window to speak through. I know if I had a corporation an enthusiast forum is the last place I would field complaints. Might see if this option is open?
Quoted from wesman:You are correct in that! It's an email joined, google based forum, from what I've seen of it. I'll get emails every day or so from users with issues, discussing them. Feels less structured than here, and also the lack of outside pinball enthusiasts being able to chime in, makes me feel that an outside lens isn't wanted. For me that feels like behavior and viewpoints might be a bit curtailed or stunted from users, on account of it being more private.
I think every manufacturer should be posting official threads on Pinside, for every game.
This would make direct consumer relations transparent, immediate, and reflective that these companies care with a direct hands on approach.
Popping into threads occassionally, isn't enough to satisfy and quell these issues. API does a pretty effective job on the forums, but every company still needs massive improvement. One person, could effectively manage such a position per company. Community management could be very, very easily handled.
I’m sorry but this really doesn’t make sense?? A percentage of you Want direct contact and communication with JJP personnel but you won’t join a group Purposely created to share your thoughts because it lacks Enthusiasts? You don’t need a room full of cheer leaders you Need the ear of the company! They created that very place?! Venting anger about why they are not listening or coming to our playground to be bullied seems fruitless to be honest. Yes API did this a Lot in the beginning as a start up with one game but they had to! You may have also noticed they Rarely do so any longer and Always refer you to communicate Directly to them for support. That is smart business!! Airing dirty laundry in a permanent open public forum is business suicide! Not telling you or others what to do but if you Believe you are not being fairly treated Go to the place they provided to communicate your concerns! Asking them to come fight in a forum parking lot is Never going to happen. I promise.
Quoted from EaglePin:I've had six weeks of e-mail and phone contact with them through their designated support representatives. That's a direct line of communication they've set up for customers to contact them, and I think it's fair to presume it's the best "window to speak through" to them. Still they've had no response, just silence.
I'm not posting here to speak to them. They know my issue and they know I'm looking for their advice on how to lay the chip on my playfield down. I've communicated with them directly and kept it private for 6 weeks giving them the opportunity to respond in any way, shape, or form. No response has been received, so I'm now sharing my experience here on this enthusiast forum so others can know about it and take or leave the information as they see fit.
Their lack of response isn't due to a lack of them receiving my communication through the right forum. It's due to them just not responding or, based on my conversations with them and Wesman's post (link below) mentioning comments very similar to what I experienced, it's due to them not having someone on staff who knows about playfield manufacturing processes and how to address playfield issues. The first reason is horrible customer service and the other reason means they're blindly relying on a supplier with no internal staff knowledge about a critical part they're purchasing for the machine they're building. Either way it's not a good look for a company.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/potc-who-has-playfield-dimples-cracking-wear-around-star-posts-/page/33#post-5108978
Totally understand your anger in this situation but I again ask. We Know they have basically 2 people on support duty with probably 3000 emails per day for parts, support, sales, lunch, whatever so we can assume these things sadly are getting lost. I ask did you Try or Anyone to post letters as you have on Their google forum? That would be permanently logged on their system. Did you even try? As upset as you rightfully are I would think you would exhaust Every resource to be heard. Clearly this thread has proven We are the only ones reading. Consider it!
Quoted from wesman:Umm. Err.... Uuuuuh.
Yanno, I've talked directly to just about everyone involved at JJP besides Jen, oddly enough.
Jack.
Frank.
Steve.
Lloyd.
Butch.
Eric.
Pat.
Shannon
And actually Jen in person too.
For a fairly small company, I've met maybe most of the folks in it, excluding Leonard and his assistant. (Probably the two people I need MOST to speak with.)
To varying degrees, I've spoken directly to the top six of those people, regarding issues I've had from day one, or weeks/months later.
If I can't make headway, and wish upon a star, to have issues fixed, exactly how can that occur then Dave?
Since I bought this game, I wake up and wonder if the situations with it will improve. Daily. I doubt the folks at JJP are feeling as concerned about my daily mood as I am, but I don't affect their daily lives.
But I should just suck it up, I guess.
That forum is less effective than this one, trust me.
That said, if I just suck it up, and acknowledge that pinball is even at delivery, inherently broke, than do you know what I'm going to do.....about pinball?
Not. Buy. Another.
I need pinball less than pinball needs me. But pinball does need me, and other satisfied buyers, rather than endless sycophants (By this I mean anyone, which seems like most owners, that tolerate this crap.) that accept issues that god forbid, they wouldn't from an auto manufacturer. Which, aside these games, no other major purchase I've made in my life, even comes close.
Ok I guess I give? I simply asked if either of you Tried to use Their forum and you say “it’s less effective then this one” yet you Never Tried it! I do trade shows for a living. I meet Thousands of people and clients at each event. Do you know how many I remember that evening? None! You tried email and voicemails and it clearly didn’t work. I suggested another Viable option to help but that won’t ever work because you Assume it won’t work? I too have met every person in that factory and all were absolutely wonderful (except LTG! Lol) and guess what, I will bet not one of them remember me as I one of 10000 hands they shook that year. Nuff said, just wanted to Try and help. Time to call #LTG and see how Prada is doing.
Quoted from EaglePin:You say they are getting 3,000 e-mails per day for customer service and we can assume they're often losing track of things? Wouldn't that just be another red flag indication that the company is not providing good quality and good support? I'm sure your 3,000 number was an exaggeration, but if you say we should assume they lose track of support requests because they get so many of them, then I think that would be a big indicator of bad quality (number of requests) and bad support (losing track of requests). You've essentially agreed with it. So I'd say again, why not be more disappointed in their effort and less disappointed in the people who share their experience after giving them a reasonable amount of time to respond?
Ok I used made up numbers please don’t assume they had any valid point attached. I simply said that system didn’t work for you (that sucks) why not try another. Again just trying to help and have No company officiation! I know I would use any resource available if I was not happy. But that’s me I guess.
Quoted from wesman:Either you want work with JJP directly, or should get it. At least we can engage with you frequently on here Dave.
I remember reading, yearsssss ago, Jack used to post on here.
Funny you say that after posting your links to there forum. I counted Several company replies even from Jack himself! Want to know how many replies are in this thread from JJP? 0
Quoted from MrBally:I see there are still a few members of the flock hanging on in the church of Jersey Jack.....
Not necessarily nor will I hate on something because someone else doesn’t enjoy it. Don’t believe in following only gets you to the back of the horse. I was however Trying to suggest another means to communicate which was determined a fail yet nobody tried it? I would do this for any company or individual but you can’t make anyone drink as they say. Guess we can just wait till Jack and Gary Stern decide to just go to the forum to work out complaints. Any day now...
Quoted from harryhoudini:Jeesus, between you and Derek I don't know who is a bigger JJP zealot.
So, yeah. *I* tried it. I emailed Jen as soon as I found out about it. Btw... how do you find out about it? Is it listed on their site? Did they announce to their customers? Was it posted here? Classic. What a professional communication device in this day and age, a RESTRICTED google group. This is fucking ridiculous the pedestal you are trying to stand on.
I was told I was added. I've had a Google account for something like 20 years, I don't know. I participate in several Google based forums/groups without issue. When I try to access the JJP Google Group I get an "access denied" error. I've replied to Jen with this information, she said I was added and she knew of no issue that would prevent me from joining. Now what?
Posting to the most centralized place dedicated to your product and the community that supports you is the LEAST you can do as a business where enthusiasts make up a majority of the interest in your product. It's absolutely short sighted and irresponsible for a business not to use one of the easiest and cheapest means of advertisement and communication about their products. Several of their employees post here under the title of their business name, is that not sanctioned? I'd be surprised if pinside community and communication isn't a very big known topic in their office.
Since you brought this up, how many other ways does JJP communicate with customers? I've said it before, I signed up for their email list countless times, never once I have received one email from their email list. I run a web hosting company, I've been managing internet services for over 25 years, I run my own spam filtering service, I would know if an email never made it to me. I've used their support form numerous times, even before I bought my first JJP, and never once received a response. How do you find out about "kit" releases, playfield offers, code updates? Tell me where this all gets announced please, I'd like to join.
I've sent Frank many emails on various issues, with nothing but utter politeness and information, asking for NOTHING. Almost never do I get a reply. Hey, my chest bracket cracked... you think that would get a reply.
Stephen and Lloyd have been absolutely fanatical in their support. Shannan is a godsend. Frank is obviously stuck in the middle and I am sure is doing a heck of a job given the position he is in. No one here, I would wager, wants anything bad for JJP nor are there personal issues with employees or owners. There is a business to customer issue.
Your head is in the sand.
Easy HH not sure where you come across slamming on me? You must be kidding. I offered a fricken solution of which as Wesman posted the screen shot Who would have known it actually contained the info your complaining about! Amazing. I offered a Suggestion as that’s what people do to Help others. If with all your internet savvy you couldn’t get in how does that challenge my suggestion? Did I not let you in? I guess that’s what a Zealot would do but I honestly don’t care if I am helping you. Others still enjoy this hobby as much as I do and I can help Them I will. Throw your knives at someone that cares honestly. You are so right, I see OEMs and management from all the major pinball companies here daily. Oh wait, no we don’t. Don’t like my help, ignore it. I am here for others as I have been for 20 years and many like yourself have come along to knock people and there interests down. Hasn’t bothered me yet and those that I can help I will always try. Your an interesting person for sure.
Quoted from wesman:I mentioned, Jack used to post on here, early on in the WoZ days. I'd wager when he needed direct support while building the brand.
Now, not so much. He's got bigger fish to fry I guess. I know he's traveling a shit ton internationally and domestically to promote Wonka.
Talking on here directly with customers that have issues is great promotion too!
Yeah he was definitely the Ron Popeal of sales back then. Last I heard though he wasn’t the company decision maker any longer mostly the name and spokesmen for sales? Curious for you, did you ever reach out to you distributor? The ones I work with (granted I don’t beat them with every concern) helped me instantly with resolutions and taking care of the red tape along with always keeping me updated on any purchased game change or update. Just hope you gave all resources a try. Some work, some don’t at times.
Quoted from harryhoudini:Dude, you insinuated several times that people aren't contacting JJP in an appropriate manner or there are better ways. You pushed on these two guys that they never did what you said. Your suggestion and JJP's insistence on a PRIVATE Google group method of communication is bullshit. But yet, I clearly tried to use that method of communication and their system does not work. You said you didn't even try it, how can you even know if that is a better method? It'd double speak and gaslighting at it's finest. Everyone else is wacky.
You keep crapping on this thread and others, rebuking posts over and over, grandstanding for JJP as if you worked for them. You make underhanded, half hearted statements as if you made a joke and really you punch little holes at posts and ideas. You keep getting downvoted, yet it's really nothing you are doing? I'm done playing with kid gloves, I was more than understanding, open, questioning and looking for opinions in all of my threads. I'm no expert, I'm no one special but truly you have a special place in your heart for JJP and everyone is wrong.
It started early on:Yup, nothing to see here... business as usual, playfields chip to the wood quite often because that darn ball and those darn washers.
---Yeah, people are too anal, you aren't, it's funny, tee hee hee.
---
Your comment to the playfield offer from JJP was:This isn't a deal, dude. This is a manufacturing defect that they are charging us to fix. No one is giving you a deal. It's a deal if you DON'T have problems. And if you didn't then you shouldn't have gotten a playfield. So which is it?
Let's have some transparency here. Did you have chipping? Because you said you didn't and this playfield offer is only for those who have chipping.
Did you pay full price for all of the JJP games you own?
Do you get special access to JJP games before they are delivered?
I mean come on, it's pretty damn clear you aren't a neutral party in the slightest.
------Really? No side? Laughable.
------Yeah dude, you're wrong. Absolutely, 100% dead wrong.
Honestly your not worth arguing with HH. Not one thing you committed to posting shows any value. I will say however no I don’t work for JJP, I’m not Jack, and unlike you I did buy All of my games at full price like everyone and without any favoritism. Granted I don’t go out of my way to crap on everyone so I guess they treated me a bit nicer? Finally if you choose feel free to try actually Reading what I wrote. I Never said Anyone didn’t respond correctly. I Said sadly that system didn’t work and suggested another option. But as usual you on;y wish to read and hear what YOU believe but as I stated I really could care less what You believe honesty! Lol. You can be right, but that doesn’t make everyone Wrong.
Quoted from harryhoudini:So did you have chipping?
I said I didn’t Multiple times or did that answer not work for you as it wasn’t yours? Yes I bought a Playfield. I have 25 other Playfields for games was I only supposed to buy them because I had an issue or you told me it was ok to do so? No following your interrogation or it’s merrit?
Quoted from Procrastinator:Ain’t that the truth. Haha I remember stern had a dedicated media guy for a while, Jared I think. He was literally run off in 9 months from customers badgering him, some legit, but mostly trivial BS. It’s a nice thought, but manufacturers realized a while ago responding on these forums would basically require a masochist...
Yeah I think CGC tried also to play nice on the forum and sadly he was quickly ran out of dodge and quit I believe. Tough hobby
Quoted from Mike_J:He’s delusional or intentionally obtuse or being paid in some form by JJP.
Mike. What exactly did I say that was delusional? At No time did I Ever say that the Playfields weren’t F’d up nor did I Ever say JJP handled this in Any way correctly? I simply suggested another medium for those afflicted to get there attention? Was that somehow Wrong? Did I say something nice at any point about anyone other then LTG? What did I miss in what people are reading? Lol
Quoted from EaglePin:It's not a political rally and it's not people shouting without using their heads, it's just refuting the notion (posted a couple of times) that people who did get in contact with the right JJP people about issues and got no follow-up response from them should have used a different communication tool to get them to reply.
It's an absurd notion and it's worth refuting because it seems like the only reason the Google forum suggestion is being made is to make it look like JJP might not have been made properly aware of the issue when they absolutely were, and to steer someone reading it to the wrong impression that yeah maybe the right people at JJP weren't aware of the issue so it makes sense they didn't respond. That's just flat out incorrect and it's worth correcting.
The issue isn't that the right people weren't directly contacted. The issue is no response after they have been contacted, even when the only thing (in my case) being asked for is advice. When someone tries to minimize that situation or make the situation look like it's probably different than it's being portrayed it's fair to expect a reply.
Eaglepin Please show me where I Ever said you did not contact them correctly or contact the right person? That’s HH’s spin. I simply suggested another way to pound on their door to air the frustration you rightfully have? How did Help turn to critiquing in any way? I’m not the cause of your issue nor Have I implied you didn’t have an issue. I Wanted to try and help. Yikes
Quoted from harryhoudini:You were only supposed to take the offer if you had damage. It says in their release to send pics of the damage. It was posted that the offer is for chipped playfields. So why did you take "a deal" that wasn't for you?
You have no issues. We're all crazy, we shouldn't complain and you take a playfield you aren't entitled to through the issues the rest of us have?
Smh. Yeah, I'm making no sense... no one agrees with me... my posts are bullshit.
Again HH you as ALWAYS convolute and stir everything you wish to fire up the crowd. Did I Ever say I Bought a discount Playfield??? NO. In fact if you look in the thread LONG before this offer was made I showed that I bought a CE Playfield. Let me guess Now you’ll pump this that I got a trunk refund later. Yeah! Not. I’m not a cheat scum bag looking for a handout Or to take advantage of a company or situation. Sorry but I suspect you already knew this just wanted to get back on your box for the crowd. Yes I said sounds like a great deal, but that’s after I bought one full price for 1200. What will you read into next I wonder. Maybe Jack is my father? Hmmm
Quoted from harryhoudini:How many times do people have to tell you that you aren't helping? Your insinuation in every post is clear. You insinuated JJP couldn't contact me because "I was not the original owner" ... that I shouldn't post my play count in public because "that would hurt me" ... dude. If you can't see it no one can point it out any clearer.
I've had fun tonight, I love a good debate.. I'm off to get some mods posted for sale quickly.
Technically You posted that when You posted Jacks response to you. Who would have knew I was actually trying to help you then? Crazy. Turns out he Did care that you weren’t a customer. Goofy world.
Quoted from EaglePin:Your response of "I said I didn’t Multiple times or did that answer not work for you as it wasn’t yours?" is very, very interesting. Hmmmm... Seems like that applied to you just a bit ago when you were told multiple times with specific examples that the right people at JJP were contacted and there was confirmation they're aware of the issue but still didn't respond, and somehow that answer didn't work for you because nobody went through a locked Google forum that isn't even publicized as being available by JJP? Very interesting.
Fair enough. Wanted to sincerely try to help in some way. I do hope you find resolution as they clearly dropped the ball for you. Good luck.
Quoted from EaglePin:I formed my own opinion on it without influence from someone else's thoughts. These quotes from your posts absolutely came across to me as criticism of not contacting the right people correctly:
- "Not telling you or others what to do but if you Believe you are not being fairly treated Go to the place they provided to communicate your concerns!"
- "I ask did you Try or Anyone to post letters as you have on Their google forum? That would be permanently logged on their system. Did you even try?"
Those quotes were replying to posts saying the right people had been contacted by phone, so they definitely came across as "You didn't use the right way of contacting them." Made no sense at all. The issue hasn't been getting in contact with the right people. The issue has been them not following up to provide a response after that contact.
I like you. But I'm sorry I don't believe you were only trying to help. The clear impression left with me (and I think maybe with others) is that you just don't like or want the company getting criticized. That's the feeling I get, and I don't feel it's right to try to leave an impression that maybe there was a flaw with the communication to the company and a different way could have led to a resolution by now. Again, the right people have been contacted, the issue is logged in their system, and no response has been received. Not because a different way of communicating wasn't used. Just because they haven't chosen to respond.
My apologies to You if that’s how you viewed my intentions or suggestions. Such is the keyboard for conversation. You and several others have a no question legitimate complaint. There is no Way a Playfield should look like that or breakdown to like that for any reason other then a mfg mistake or materials. Just agin wanted to suggest using Every means to get Your voice heard. Nothing more! Will it work? No clue? Just hope one of your methods can find you a solution as this game really is amazing to the point we are willing to fight amongst ourselves to make it right. Wish you the best.
Quoted from harryhoudini:Now that I'm unleashed, I'm going to unleash in my own thread. After getting poked so many times, the bear gets pissed. Grab some popcorn and a drink.
Don't I feel like the biggest farking moron on the forum right now, eh?
Let me clarify... that was 2 nights ago. When I was being all cuddly and warm in this thread. Barely calling anyone out, barely trying to dissuade the people who keep posting in this thread (the thread ABOUT THE PROBLEM) that it isn't a problem, it's over reacting, only a few people have it, no one has it, it's a mirage.. whatever. I thought, "Man... I would feel weird buying mods from someone else if I made all these things, I should offer up some stuff to this dude because he's a nice community guy who helps out and makes fun crap and if he had just made the window mod that I suggested to him I wouldn't even be in the mod business." (Thanks btw) Some of the stuff we are making is not in what seems like the standard wheelhouse for ModCouple, like the chest open mod which jpinball made and we are packaging up as a kit. So like, I'd send him some free junk.
So not only that... but 22 day ago or so, after weeks of people asking for someone to make the Devil's Triangle rocks, I took up the challenge, posted a thread, commented that I'd do it, etc. For 22 days or something, among all the other fun stuff we're making, we took the time to model some rocks to make a cool upgrade or add-on that doesn't copy the original and has some added benefits and features. It takes like 6 hours to print the damn thing and I've done it a few times now. (Btw, ModCouple must have some serious damn printing power to whip those things out like they seem to claim because even farming this stuff out takes a week or so to get back any decent quantity and you'd need a farm of printers to churn out a whole buttload of these but I'm sure I'm missing something).
Not once do I recall, nor can any amount of searching reveal, when anyone else said they would do this. Because what kind of moron wastes 22 days of various time while trying to own multiple businesses, cook some dinners, play some pinball and you know, make a bunch of mods with a known fact that someone is already doing this work? I could very, very, very well be wrong. I can't remember shiz. But as far as I can tell no response to any post I made about our intentions told me not to do it or even said hey, we're going to do that too! Not one post I can find or recall since I started participating in any POTC conversation said someone was making a rock upgrade. Yet, yesterday (now at 2am or so writing this) yelobird announced their "JJP Pirates of the Caribbean "Devil's Triangle" custom rocks mod!"
So you know, all's fair in business. Although I really just wanted to make mods I wanted, other people seemed to think they were good ideas so yea, we started selling mods. Brilliant. My wife loves me, apparently, because she's been downstairs soldering like a madwoman. Someone else made a mod I was working on. Must be a coincidence, must be miscommunication, right? Or they don't want to share what their mod plans are, ya? Smart, right?
It was dismaying, sure. But then I took a look at the pictures of it and damn, that looks pretty similar to the original on my game. I don't have the original memoized, so I went downstairs, grabbed mine off the game and held it up to the computer screen. So I asked if this was a copy of the original? I was told no, this was designed by ModCouple. I snapped a photo of mine at roughly the same angle and tried to lay them over each other as close to proportion and angle as I could.
[quoted image]
The front-most image with the red halo (and some sort of marble base or something it was photographed on) is from The ModCouple website. The rear image (with the background green chair) is the original I just pulled from my game. I mean.... it has an extra peak? Sure, it wasn't molded from the original part.. but.. I mean... huh?
Ok, so I'm just not a savvy business guy... or forum poster.. or customer relations expert... and I can't comprehend posts, I get it. So I went and posted in my own 22 day old thread about the fact that ModCouple released their own version so we would hurry up a 3D rendering of what we have been working on so those who have been following my continual posts could decide which one they want. I mean, I basically advertised THEIR product in my own thread. I called it a copy of the original. Dave was very quick to correct me that it wasn't a copy:He advertised in my own thread? Yeah he did. Cajones! He advertised his product, in the 3 week old thread where I was prototyping and announcing our product and its development. Ok, no worries. But really if anyone frequents the Merriam-Webster's website you'd know that it IS a copy. A COPY is "a thing made to be similar or identical to another"... so not only was I called out in my own thread, he was WRONG. But you know, I apologized... I removed the word and I went on.
Then someone asked in my thread if we had pics, I said I would get the render posted soon and I didn't want to post pics of the printed ones because they are shells and barely held together and look horrible. It's just a test print, no reason to make it nice. I mentioned how we designed this to be unique, it's an upgrade and original design with some mods to it that sort of add some cool function/design and interactivity. Just trying to explain what we set out to do.
11 minutes later. In the ModCouple's product thread this is posted:This was a reply to someone who mentioned BATMAN mods and asked if there were pics of the rocks installed, who doesn't own a POTC. He asked NOTHING ABOUT ANY OF THIS but Dave offered it right up on a silver platter.Now, I'm not a rocket doctor or brain scientist but I can smell a duck pretty good if it's all waddling all over looking like a dumb duck. 11 minutes later. I mean, this is pretty genius.
I'm sure the "original designer" is overjoyed to have his work COPIED and printed on a 3D printer and sold for a fraction of the cost.
But apparently, I'm so dumb that ModCouple had a BANNER SALES MORNING in the 5 hours since he posted and so they have to work the late shift and make more. But massive sales are probably due to the fact that this part is so cheap. I mean, what do the rocks cost from JJP? Like $100+ or more, right? So like $45 or something for the knockoff is a HUGE bargain. Also considering the fact that this is by far the LARGEST 3D printed mod they sell for POTC, yet is around the same price as the fairly small lock bar coins? I mean, if I go price some 3D printed stuff of similar size and density comparison to a batch printing website I can tell you, without any question in the world, that the rock mod will cost a TON to print. A TON. Like, I could barely print the actuating chest mod bracket that is SOLID for what they are selling the rock mod for and it's gotta be hollow as all heck. It sure isn't solid resin cast like the original. It took 6 hours in DRAFT mode on my printer to print the SHELL. Print time is money. But...they are also unobtainable from JJP... from about oh, 2-4 weeks ago? So if you've been clamoring for one of these for a while and a $45 pops up then you'll jump right on that poop. Smart move.
So whatever... beat at a game that wasn't even my own, I'm just dumb . So I'll just leave this festering turd here for everyone to read and make their own informed decisions. You can go find the product threads pretty easily. You can look at the timelines and posts I've made. And I still am VERY accepting of the fact that maybe, maybe Dave posted that he was doing this and everyone was overjoyed and happy and stopped asking about it over and over, but heck if I can find it. Even so.. even if I was just dumb, it's still a peepee move.
I didn't post this bunk earlier because I was being all warm and fuzzy and using these big boxing gloves that are all soft and padded so I didn't hurt anyone's feelings. I told myself, "nope... not going to crap all over his thread, not going to post a new thread, not going to call anyone out because it's pinball and it's fun and we have enough feces with this thread. If people want to buy, let them buy." Jack sure didn't say doodoo about copying the stuff JJP made for the game themselves, right? Just don't copy licensee based IP dung.
I'm pretty sure I got virtually kicked in the pelotas today, err yesterday, and that's not right.
You really have issues? Lol not much more to say.
Quoted from Pinballer67:I've noticed this too, it probably will nick the ball like the t-nut -- so something should be done AND I have slight pooling around the bottom of the washer beneath the post (I've noticed this on some PoTC's)...so the blister will probably pop at some point.
I'm thinking maybe a small rubber washer would be better under that particular post.
Question: where can I purchase PoTC cliffys?
Thanks
Quoted from joseph5185:IMO, Stern is killing it lately.
JP, another BK, and now ST (2 of which are huge titles). They are practically flexing IMO.
First owned Stern might be a NIB BK:SOR this year.
Might want to pass on NIB BK's as barely used BKLE's are hitting the 6k mark already. Save yourself some money. Personally sold mine before the box was hauled away....
Quoted from MrBally:I've never used a rotisserie. A long single-sided work bench and several towels to lay the playfields on. Did several Eight Ball Deluxe and Centaurs. This was when they were on route making great money.
Lol I'm with you on that. Took me a long time to justify a rotisserie purchase. For years I used (4) simple 12" pieces of 2x4 place in all the corners to act like table legs. Single drywall screw and washer on each to clamp it to the playfield and I was pulling parts. Wasn't as pretty but for under $3 I could do a swap in a day.
Quoted from MrBubbles:Why wouldn't the answer be for JJP to... 1) Send a new playfield 2) Pay a professional technician that they recommend in your area to do the swap
That's the only realistic way to deal with this that doesn't require crazy populated playfield shipping drama and crazy "deep water" labor time by the purchaser, if they could do the job at all.
You would never find that many Qualified playfield techs in Any area. You would be shipping it anyway And now they would be liable for that service. No way they would freelance a project like this.
Quoted from joseph5185:N00b question:
I have never used a soldering iron in my life...
Do I "have" to use solder wire or is it recommended to do so?
Hmmm. Kind of depends on what you want to do really. If a joint simply separated most times you can just heat the existing solder and reflow them together. If you joining 2 pieces that have no solder it won’t work without it. Best to brush up on the Many YouTube videos showing the technique. Not really hard just try to remember less is more and heat the wire/part not the solder. Good luck.
Quoted from joseph5185:Thanks guys.
So this has 0 to do with pinball - unfortunately, but I figured you guys were the experts.
This is regarding a tailight blinker:
Essentially, I wanted to replace the bulbs with LEDs because I became tired of constantly replacing bulbs when they burn out. This is a 2007. I'm sure nowadays LEDs might damn near be standard.
I bought this regulator/resistor because LEDs have less resistance .. which makes sense. The problem is without the regular/resistor, the car will generate false positives because the system is built to detect a certain amount of resistance.
Anyways,
So it's pretty straight forward. You have two wires from the wiring harness for the tailight itself (technically 3, but only two apply) and you essentially line up these two wires and crimp the connection with the resistor. Easy. Well, the connection keeps coming lose and I get the fast blinking light essentially. I tried using electric tape and it's just not working.
So figured I would "fuse" the connection by soldering. So essentially the resistor has metal contacts so you simply splice the two wires and just make sure they have contact.
I'm not necessarily trying to bridge or extend a connection that's why I wasn't sure if the solder wire was necessary. Figured I could probably literally just heat the iron and, ya know, make the wire from the taillight and the metal contact from the resistor one piece. I didn't even think about the flux either.
I hope this was detailed enough.
Just a lazy answer but in this example seems like to much effort for little reward personally. I think I have changed 3 signal bulbs in my life and at .90 cents and three minutes just doesn’t seem like a problem worth this much trouble. If your bulb is shorting often enough where it’s an issue you issue is not the bulb and will more then likely be the same issue with an LED. Use bulb grease (yes that’s a real thing) to keep condensation out of the plug and make sure no insulation is cracked or grounding as this is a high heat area. Good luck.
Quoted from JeJe:Hi, is there any chance for me to ask for a new playfield under warrenty? Bought it NIB 2019 in Germany.
thx
Magic 8 ball says Highly unlikely. Yeah another bad Playfield thread resurrected to go with the other 12 lol
You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider Yelobird.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/potc-who-has-playfield-dimples-cracking-wear-around-star-posts-?tu=Yelobird and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.
Wheaton, IL
Dubai
Vernon, BC