(Topic ID: 242867)

PoTC - Who has playfield cracking & wear around sling posts?


By harryhoudini

6 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 2,728 posts
  • 206 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 days ago by wesman
  • Topic is favorited by 62 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“What kind of issues are you seeing?”

  • I have visible dimples but no chipping 34 votes
    19%
  • I can see chipping but haven't done anything yet 61 votes
    33%
  • I can see chipping and installed mylar, washer and/or larger star post 28 votes
    15%
  • My playfield looks fine (but I haven't removed the star posts) 30 votes
    16%
  • I removed the star posts and my playfield looks fine 15 votes
    8%
  • My game had clear washers installed from the factory 15 votes
    8%

(Multiple choice - 183 votes by 173 Pinsiders)

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12
#2001 3 months ago

I have a day one bubbling playfield and am done buying JJP games NIB. If I buy JJP in the future it will be second hand after confirming machine condition.

I would be fine w/ a free playfield, but I shouldn't have to pay to fix a factory defect. Really that's the least they should do.

#2002 3 months ago
Quoted from zr11990:

You are crazy. You cant expect people who pay 9-12K for a pin or not to go ballistic when the PF starts to come apart at 100 games or around that. some W/B games have perfect PFs after thousand of games and being 20-30 years old. You think its too much to expect a game you pay this much for to stay intact for a couple years. That is completely beyond my capability to fathom that anyone would find that acceptable. I figured my game was a one time event that surely wouldn't happen to others and certainly not to future games. I figured free PF would be the least Jack could do. He should have replaced the whole game as it wasn't out of warranty yet but he gave me the run around and finally after pushing him shipped a reject PF. Fuck that, fuck Jack, fuck his pinball machines and his playfields. After 5 games and it is still happening, well that is close to criminal as far as I'm concerned. He is willingly and knowingly selling a defective product. A auto manufacturer would have to issue a recall and repair the car for free. Yes I know this isn't a car. You people who own his defective products should start a class action lawsuit and sue his ass.

I hope you know that was zaphx quote and not mine.

#2003 3 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

I hope you know that was zaphx quote and not mine.

Sorry, whoevers post I got it from was blue. Whoever said it, in my opinion, is crazy if they think it should just be let go.

#2004 3 months ago

I'm kicking around the idea of getting a replacement playfield to have on hand and asking Chris Hutchins to clear it, but that would be over $1000 total, not counting shipping.

#2005 3 months ago
Quoted from dts:

I'd think about having it cleared by one of the best if I do get a spare, haven't decided yet.

The problem is, I think the jjPotC Mirco playfields have ink adhesion issues in addition to the soft clear because when there's a chip, it comes up in one piece and the wood under is clean with no hint of ink, which a more/better clear job after the fact won't solve. If I were JJP, I would be all over Mirco to fix the ongoing problem. Clear is one thing - debatable where the liability is. But ink adhesion is 100% in Mirco's court and their problem to fix.

In the meantime, I just slapped custom-cut mylar over the affected area over the fork slots to arrest the damage, put mylar rings under the slings and it's holding up great on route since. The long-term remedy by JJP of a 50% discounted unpopulated playfield we have now isn't great, but better than nothing. I hope they reconsider and come up with a better remedy (25% playfield cost or free for NIB customers with the issues), but I'm not losing any sleep over it.

#2006 3 months ago

I’m suspecting soft wood could be the issue as well since it didn’t just peel art and clear, small chunks of wood came up with it at the I lane hole.

#2007 3 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

The problem is, I think the jjPotC Mirco playfields have ink adhesion issues in addition to the soft clear because when there's a chip, it comes up in one piece and the wood under is clean with no hint of ink, which a more/better clear job after the fact won't solve. If I were JJP, I would be all over Mirco to fix the ongoing problem. Clear is one thing - debatable where the liability is. But ink adhesion is 100% in Mirco's court and their problem to fix.
In the meantime, I just slapped custom-cut mylar over the affected area over the fork slots to arrest the damage, put mylar rings under the slings and it's holding up great on route since. The long-term remedy by JJP of a 50% discounted unpopulated playfield we have now isn't great, but better than nothing. I hope they reconsider and come up with a better remedy (25% playfield cost or free for NIB customers with the issues), but I'm not losing any sleep over it.

But, you also make money off your games no matter what condition they are really in as long as they are playable and you'll get to sell them when you are done and a larger loss isn't as big of a deal since you'll have more equity in the game than homeowners, no? I mean, most routed games I see have less than any major regard for the playfield. Obviously the people who route the JJP games near me don't really care because I even tried to contact them to let them know of the post issues they could prevent, no care in the world. Homeowners typically get the "HUO" sales benefit but now, in this case, that matters much less because even a less played on playfield could have similar or worse issues than a routed game.

How many prospective Pirates owners have posted with their concerns. I know I've gotten my fair share of PMs asking if they should buy the game. I always answer yes, given the caveats, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a lot of confidence issues in this game now.

#2008 3 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

The problem is, I think the jjPotC Mirco playfields have ink adhesion issues in addition to the soft clear because when there's a chip, it comes up in one piece and the wood under is clean with no hint of ink, which a more/better clear job after the fact won't solve. If I were JJP, I would be all over Mirco to fix the ongoing problem. Clear is one thing - debatable where the liability is. But ink adhesion is 100% in Mirco's court and their problem to fix.
In the meantime, I just slapped custom-cut mylar over the affected area over the fork slots to arrest the damage, put mylar rings under the slings and it's holding up great on route since. The long-term remedy by JJP of a 50% discounted unpopulated playfield we have now isn't great, but better than nothing. I hope they reconsider and come up with a better remedy (25% playfield cost or free for NIB customers with the issues), but I'm not losing any sleep over it.

Has anyone made contact with Mirco on ink adherence?

#2009 3 months ago
Quoted from dts:

Has anyone made contact with Mirco on ink adherence?

Probably the 10th time I posted this... Mirco has been contacted by me a few ways, no response. Mirco has had threads posted in, no response. Others have contacted him and got no response. There is another thread I started dedicated to Mirco playfield issues, no response. Others have contacted him, no response. He's had plenty of opportunity to respond.

#2010 3 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Probably the 10th time I posted this... Mirco has been contacted by me a few ways, no response. Mirco has had threads posted in, no response. Others have contacted him and got no response. There is another thread I started dedicated to Mirco playfield issues, no response. Others have contacted him, no response. He's had plenty of opportunity to respond.

Ah, well thanks for posting yet again. Maybe I'll give him a call. I'll probably not get him either...

#2011 3 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

But, you also make money off your games no matter what condition they are really in as long as they are playable and you'll get to sell them when you are done and a larger loss isn't as big of a deal since you'll have more equity in the game than homeowners, no? I mean, most routed games I see have less than any major regard for the playfield. Obviously the people who route the JJP games near me don't really care because I even tried to contact them to let them know of the post issues they could prevent, no care in the world. Homeowners typically get the "HUO" sales benefit but now, in this case, that matters much less because even a less played on playfield could have similar or worse issues than a routed game.
How many prospective Pirates owners have posted with their concerns. I know I've gotten my fair share of PMs asking if they should buy the game. I always answer yes, given the caveats, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a lot of confidence issues in this game now.

I still currently own a WoZ. JJP, Jack, and Frank were fantastic support for that machine since day 1, even though I was a 2nd owner.

I'd own another JJP that was good (no, not Hobbit or whatever Wonka is at the moment) without reservation. My viewpoint is not tied to the fact that jjPotC happens to be on a route.

#2012 3 months ago

Thanks Harry for the recap.

Yes I said all those things. Yes I apologized and attempted to de escalate. A couple people approached me privately to say my words made them feel like their issues were unimportant.

Let me be clear - chipping sucks and none of us are happy about it. In my personal case it was easy to hide under posts so I was able to put it behind me.

I am empathetic to the folks who have it worse. I am also empathetic to the position this puts JJP in.

#2013 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Thanks Harry for the recap.
Yes I said all those things. Yes I apologized and attempted to de escalate. A couple people approached me privately to say my words made them feel like their issues were unimportant.
Let me be clear - chipping sucks and none of us are happy about it. In my personal case it was easy to hide under posts so I was able to put it behind me.
I am empathetic to the folks who have it worse. I am also empathetic to the position this puts JJP in.

I agree with all of what you've said here.

But in addition, all of us need to be concerned about a product that isn't matching quality standards with pricing, as well as decades prior productions standards.

I know for me, I won't buy new games unless this issue is addressed where need be.

Caution here is no different than any other consumer interest group. Except for me, a $4 Whopper and a rotten gut is far less painful than a marred playfield that will only worsen over time.

Ultimately, all companies involved need to vocalize the issue after determining it, and course correct for reassurance of present and future customers. There should be no war here, between slightly irked and very irked customers. This isn't either of our faults for being enthusiastic fans. It will be though, if we continue to tolerate and buy flawed products, even if we love them dearly.

#2014 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Thanks Harry for the recap.
Yes I said all those things. Yes I apologized and attempted to de escalate. A couple people approached me privately to say my words made them feel like their issues were unimportant.
Let me be clear - chipping sucks and none of us are happy about it. In my personal case it was easy to hide under posts so I was able to put it behind me.
I am empathetic to the folks who have it worse. I am also empathetic to the position this puts JJP in.

Wondering if you looked under other posts or pop bumpers yet? Not sure how much you've pulled your game(s) apart. I wonder how much most people have pulled their games apart. I doubt many have pulled up other posts or the pop bumpers for sure. I'm worried about longer term issues based on those areas as well. Wouldn't it make sense that there are other areas with issues if the slings had issues? The slings had it worse due to the sharp post edges, but obviously we're seeing many other locations with issues on many games.

Not sure what position JJP is in. They were in the position to make it right(er) by sending out < $550 cost playfields without charge for a minimal outlay when compared to lost business or bad PR. Now they seem to be in the position of a bunch of backlash because they aren't taking responsibility for their mistake.

Quoted from vireland:

I still currently own a WoZ. JJP, Jack, and Frank were fantastic support for that machine since day 1, even though I was a 2nd owner.
I'd own another JJP that was good (no, not Hobbit or whatever Wonka is at the moment) without reservation. My viewpoint is not tied to the fact that jjPotC happens to be on a route.

Support from JJP for me has been great as well. I'm not entirely happy that bad WOZ playfields were repaired with decals you had to pay money for, but I bought another WOZ... and a POTC... so that tells you something. DI is also on my list, so is Wonka but I cancelled my order until I know more from this situation. I've said it many times here in many threads, JJP employees are awesome. I've thanked them many times, Shannan, Steve and Lloyd especially for their tireless efforts. I think this boils down to poor decisions by management and nothing these poor people have done, including Frank as far as I know.

I just think OPs have a different view and mindset when it comes to game value and resell. I'd imagine most operators try the hardest to not repair or upgrade games to prevent issues, the more downtime the less income, the more investment the less equity. Put the game on route, make your targets and then sell to get a new one. That seems to be a common theme but I'm just going off what I've read. Routed games are routed, people expect wear and lots of plays, caring about each issue with the game isn't necessarily in that mindset. You could very well be not the stereotype.

#2015 3 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Wondering if you looked under other posts or pop bumpers yet? Not sure how much you've pulled your game(s) apart. I wonder how much most people have pulled their games apart. I doubt many have pulled up other posts or the pop bumpers for sure.

No, I haven’t gone hunting for more problems. If I don’t see them during gameplay, I would rather not know about them!

I did examine things when I replaced the rubber for chapter select. It was fine. So far only the sling posts have the issue. I am seeing a bit of wear on the tortuga hole edge which I consider expected at this play count (around 3200 I think.)

I bought cliffys to cover it but haven’t installed yet. Not crazy about the look.

#2016 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

No, I haven’t gone hunting for more problems. If I don’t see them during gameplay, I would rather not know about them!
I did examine things when I replaced the rubber for chapter select. It was fine. So far only the sling posts have the issue. I am seeing a bit of wear on the tortuga hole edge which I consider expected at this play count (around 3200 I think.)
I bought cliffys to cover it but haven’t installed yet. Not crazy about the look.

Agree about the look. Especially on WOZ (it's carbon fiber for some reason).

#2017 3 months ago
Quoted from Psw757:

I’m suspecting soft wood could be the issue

That's what she said, nyuk nyuk.

#2018 3 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

That's what she said, nyuk nyuk.

Hahaha!

#2019 3 months ago

Stern sent me a new in box plug and play Ghostbusters premium playfield when I had ghosting issues with my inserts. You would think Jersey Jack would want to make this right?

Quoted from VillaThrills:

Guess I am the original reporting this a month after the game was released. Worked with Mirco, worked with Jack, neither offered anything to remediate.
Both sides on the bottom. A star post at each and some sealer seems to have helped.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

#2020 3 months ago
Quoted from Cdonnerusmc:

Stern sent me a new in box plug and play Ghostbusters premium playfield when I had ghosting issues with my inserts. You would think Jersey Jack would want to make this right?

Sterns volumes are much higher than JJP.

Also, in subsequent releases they explicitly called out ghosting inserts as normal and not warranty fixes.

#2021 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Sterns volumes are much higher than JJP.
Also, in subsequent releases they explicitly called out ghosting inserts as normal and not warranty fixes.

The old GoT "as designed" fix.

#2022 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Sterns volumes are much higher than JJP.

So?

Ford's production volume is much larger than Bentley's.

#2023 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Sterns volumes are much higher than JJP.

To be fair, they are the ones doing all those heavy metal rock band pins.

#2024 3 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

So?
Ford's production volume is much larger than Bentley's.

And Ford still screwed me over on three separate transmissions they wouldn't fix literally a couple months out of warranty. Big car companies can be dicks...

#2025 3 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

And Ford still screwed me over on three separate transmissions they wouldn't fix literally a couple months out of warranty. Big car companies can be dicks...

So can Stern

That's the point. It shouldn't matter the size, but if you are paying for a Bentley you sure as shit better get Bentley customer support. Really, no matter the damn product if a manufacturer makes a mistake it should be on them to fix it.

#2026 3 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

That's the point. It shouldn't matter the size, but if you are paying for a Bentley you sure as shit better get Bentley customer support. Really, no matter the damn product if a manufacturer makes a mistake it should be on them to fix it.

Did you figure out why JJP cancelled your replacement PF yet? I know it's been mentioned that maybe it was due to the letters you sent but I can't imagine they would stoop that low.

#2027 3 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

So can Stern
That's the point. It shouldn't matter the size, but if you are paying for a Bentley you sure as shit better get Bentley customer support. Really, no matter the damn product if a manufacturer makes a mistake it should be on them to fix it.

Bentley's are 10x the price of a typical Ford. Let's change the analogy to a Lincoln and a Ford, if Ford was stamping LE on the bumper and charging essentially the same price as the Lincoln. Who would even buy the Ford? Oh, because it's "limited"...

#2028 3 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

So can Stern
That's the point. It shouldn't matter the size, but if you are paying for a Bentley you sure as shit better get Bentley customer support. Really, no matter the damn product if a manufacturer makes a mistake it should be on them to fix it.

JJP LE costs about 10% more than a Stern LE these days. That's hardly the spread of a Ford to a Bentley.

#2029 3 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

JJP LE costs about 10% more than a Stern LE these days. That's hardly the spread of a Ford to a Bentley.

Choose any two manufacturers, arguing my analogy doesn't change the situation here. JJP charges more, customer services less.

Quoted from Only_Pinball:

Did you figure out why JJP cancelled your replacement PF yet? I know it's been mentioned that maybe it was due to the letters you sent but I can't imagine they would stoop that low.

No. No response from the person who refunded me, no response from a follow-up email to my order to Frank and Shannan. I'll call tomorrow.

Oh, and JJP didn't get the letter. I still haven't gotten it returned from USPS (it's floating around somewhere but never made it past Seattle) so I'm going to have to resend it. Obviously they didn't get it, but likely know about it as others surmised.

#2030 3 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

No. No response from the person who refunded me, no response from a follow-up email to my order to Frank and Shannan. I'll call tomorrow.

Crazy.

#2031 3 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

And Ford still screwed me over on three separate transmissions they wouldn't fix literally a couple months out of warranty. Big car companies can be dicks...

There was no defect. Those transmissions performed exactly as designed; to make it past the warranty time and mileage. Perhaps a Ford Protect Extended Service Plan should have been purchased. During dealer prep of the new vehicle, could they program the engine & Transmission ECU's to not fail right after the standard warranty mileage is exceeded?

Better ideas and better cars; Have you driven a Ford, Lately?

11
#2032 3 months ago

Thank god the fucking carguments have started.

#2033 3 months ago

New Wonka (at the bar where our league plays). All the wide posts had the clear-coat ripple around the edge, but he rest of the smaller posts seemed ok.

20190807_192109 (resized).jpg20190807_192127 (resized).jpg
#2034 3 months ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Thank god the fucking carguments have started.

If a Ford is a duck, will it float like a pinball machine? And if it does float, should I trade in my Toyota?

Or how do we really know it's a ducK and not a pinball machine?

#2035 3 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

If a Ford is a duck, will it float like a pinball machine? And if it does float, should I trade in my Toyota?
Or how do we really know it's a ducK and not a pinball machine?

Does it weigh as much as a witch?

#2036 3 months ago

Which witch?

#2037 3 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

Which witch?

This witch?

Capture (resized).PNG
-1
#2038 3 months ago

"That's not my real nose, it's a false one."

#2039 3 months ago

Surprised this thread made it to 41 pages before going completely off the rails.

#2040 3 months ago
Quoted from MrBally:

There was no defect. Those transmissions performed exactly as designed; to make it past the warranty time and mileage. Perhaps a Ford Protect Extended Service Plan should have been purchased. During dealer prep of the new vehicle, could they program the engine &amp; Transmission ECU's to not fail right after the standard warranty mileage is exceeded?
Better ideas and better cars; Have you driven a Ford, Lately?

It was our first and last experience with a Ford.

-2
#2041 3 months ago
Quoted from arzoo:

New Wonka (at the bar where our league plays). All the wide posts had the clear-coat ripple around the edge, but he rest of the smaller posts seemed ok.[quoted image][quoted image]

As Stern/JJP/Spooky/Mirco clear bunching goes, that's pretty minor, I've seen Wonkas with much worse.

-3
#2042 3 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Choose any two manufacturers, arguing my analogy doesn't change the situation here. JJP charges more, customer services less.

This ONE issue aside (and it is a big issue), in my substantial experience with dozens of Sterns and all every JJP game made so far except Wonka I'd say JJP and Stern support is about equal overall. And JJP LEs are only 10% more than Stern LEs - TEN percent. That's a pretty small price difference.

#2043 3 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

This ONE issue aside (and it is a big issue), in my substantial experience with dozens of Sterns and all every JJP game made so far except Wonka I'd say JJP and Stern support is about equal overall. And JJP LEs are only 10% more than Stern LEs - TEN percent. That's a pretty small price difference.

So shouldn't JJP provide 10% better support?

And how we are comparing LE to LE? Isn't Stern LE equivalent to CE? It sure seems like it is with DP, the game I was researching to change out with my Wonka order.

So isn't it something like $9k for Stern DP LE and $12.5k for JJP POTC CE? So like 30% difference?

Even POTC LE $9500 to DP Premium is $7500, so 20%.

Apples to apples, right?

-3
#2044 3 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

So shouldn't JJP provide 10% better support?
And how we are comparing LE to LE? Isn't Stern LE equivalent to CE? It sure seems like it is with DP, the game I was researching to change out with my Wonka order.
So isn't it something like $9k for Stern DP LE and $12.5k for JJP POTC CE? So like 30% difference?
Even POTC LE $9500 to DP Premium is $7500, so 20%.
Apples to apples, right?

The closest apples to apples is A JJP LE to a Stern LE, and even then, the JJP has the upper hand in many areas of that comparison (MUCH larger screen, better sound system, massively better cabinet, etc). Ten percent difference. Ten percent from a Stern LE to a JJP.

And JJP has on occasion done WAY MORE than Stern ever would. Like on the WoZ light boards. My WoZ was 2nd owner and I still got free replacements for at least a year and half-price replacements for way longer than I expected. No way Stern would have handed out free parts and then half price parts for like 4 years total on a machine. But then Stern sometimes exceeds what JJP does, like with SOME (not all) Beatles playfield replacements free that are having similar bunching issues to JJPs PotC. Like I said, on balance, they're roughly equal for support.

#2045 3 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

So shouldn't JJP provide 10% better support?
And how we are comparing LE to LE? Isn't Stern LE equivalent to CE? It sure seems like it is with DP, the game I was researching to change out with my Wonka order.
So isn't it something like $9k for Stern DP LE and $12.5k for JJP POTC CE? So like 30% difference?
Even POTC LE $9500 to DP Premium is $7500, so 20%.
Apples to apples, right?

Are we really comparing a Stern's LE value to JJP POTC LE? REALLY really? C'mon, now you're just being silly.

#2046 3 months ago
Quoted from vireland:MUCH larger screen, better sound system,

And this guy sounds like he is comparing Sony to Samsung.

#2048 3 months ago
Quoted from dts:

Ah, well thanks for posting yet again. Maybe I'll give him a call. I'll probably not get him either...

I’ve dealt with him in the past, VERY defensive individual. he’s no dummy and I’m my opinion he knows what he is doing... and that there are lots of issues... I just didn’t get the feeling he truly Believes it’s up to him to fix them / or take any ownership whatsoever. Seriously one of the most unpleasant interactions I had ever experienced.

#2049 3 months ago
Quoted from Soulrider911:

I’ve dealt with him in the past, VERY defensive individual. he’s no dummy and I’m my opinion he knows what he is doing... and that there are lots of issues... I just didn’t get the feeling he truly Believes it’s up to him to fix them / or take any ownership whatsoever. Seriously one of the most unpleasant interactions I had ever experienced.

I met him at TPF 2018, seemed nice. He drives an American SUV in Germany, an Escalade or something, which I thought was hilarious, since you never see them there. Was taking his family to Disney World. Overall, dry sense of humor, very proud of his work, which is understandable. The samples he had were very impressive. My main concern right now is this: if you get a replacement playfield for $550, what evidence is there that the ink has been applied any differently than the first batch of playfields? Why not wait for him to figure out the problem and do another run? I spoke with Chris Hutchins today about clearing the playfield again, but there is no guarantee that would protect from the structural problem that is coming up at the foundation, which may be ink adherence. I'm leaning towards just enjoying this epic game with the cliffy protectors and post protectors, and not worrying about it.

#2050 3 months ago

Just spoke with Mirco. He said that he can't comment on the JJP playfields legally, that all questions go through them. Sounded like a contractual thing to me, since he can talk about the other playfields he has rights to reproduce. This is why he hasn't been able to comment here on the forums. So, no new information.

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