Why haven’t they replaced the defective play fields? I agree that 50K should not be a huge financial hit so something is not adding up. When you’re charging these prices you can’t bury your head in the sand.

And we’re both speculating on their liquidity.

Like I've stated many times they are great when it comes to parts....play fields and cabinets they are not....with all these play field issues on one game you would think they would do something....their solution to date is to charge customers $500 for a replacement play field...its total BS....Also I highly doubt JJP would take the entire hit as the play field manufacturer has some sort of liability in this issue as well.

$50K hurts a lot more when you're not making anything. I've always heard that JJP has yet to turn a profit. Not sure how accurate that is but I think we can all agree that they most likely wouldn't be in business without their investor soaking up all the losses. Does anyone actually think they made anything on POTC?

Highly unlikely with the limited numbers sold, R&D (and parts) cost of this complex machine, cost of the Disney licensing and such. You'd think with the demand if it was profitable it would be re-released. Why would they suddenly stop production? Perhaps after they started making them the labor costs were finally known and when added to the parts costs they said oh poop.

I've seen sales numbers that are less than 1000 (not sure it thats accurate or not) for all three models so theres zero chance they made money on that title. I highly doubt they recouped their R and D costs. It was probably a big money loser, which is exactly why they stopped production.

I don’t think it had to do with profitability. I’m sure that was thought out well in advance of production.

My theory is simple. People pulled orders due to the mech nerfs. Parts orders were reduced accordingly. The game hit the street and surprise! It’s fantastic even with the changes. Suddenly everyone wants one but the parts orders require lead time and minimum quantities so the ship has sailed. So to speak.

That’s my take anyway. Not based on anything but speculation.

A lot of what u said makes perfect sense, but I think it had almost everything due to profitability. For a company that is trying to turn a profit they need to sell games that make money, especially for a game that is in high demand. I'm sure they had no idea how well received the game would be (its pretty incredible). My guess is they'll come out with a $12K+ POTC version of WOZ YBR so they can try and recoup some costs.

this was my understanding of why they stopped as well. The demand for the game was not there until it was announced production would cease. by that time, the issues you mention kicked in.

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Hope to have this game someday, so I also hope they redo another run at some point.

I totally agree...I can't help, but think their lack of warranty is effecting overall sales....when someone puts up almost $10K for a new game they expect it to hold up nicely especially in a home environment. I suspect if they were profitable they would take an entirely different approach to this problem. With this kind of attitude I suspect many (like myself) would look at the secondary market for their product and make sure there aren't any issues. This unfortunately doesn't help JJP's bottom line.

From what I heard, I believe through an interview with Jack, they initially wanted parts for 1500 games, for some reason could only acquire 1000 sets.

Agreed

I am in this boat. I had a deposit for an LE the day after the reveal and cancelled after the design changes they made. I realized after the game started shipping and watching the streams that even with the changes, this was still the best game available hands down. I wanted one again but not NIB considering all of the issues people were having. I'll get a HUO at some point. The delays were unfortunate. I'm sure if they were able to start shipping last summer, there would have been enough time for the sales to ramp up to a point where it would have made sense for them to continue production. I honestly believe it's one of the best games ever made.

That's basically what Jack told me. He wanted 1500 machines built, they decided on 1000 because of the above, delays, and what they thought the demand was, and there you go. Bet they will build more.

It's a tough job, predicting the future.

Predict too high and you've lost a bunch of money on inventory you can't sell.
Predict too low and you're leaving money on the table with unmet demand.

Given the high cost, parts turnaround and assembly time of pinball...it's a tough racket.

I'm sure its a brutal business....

Well they currently aren't helping anyone with PFs so it's kind of a big diff'rence.

So I just got my first stern spike 2 game last night DP premium.

Besides the playfield issue there is no question which game is made to a higher quality. JJP May have made a mistake here but the rest of their kit is top shelf quality. I am not a JJP fanboy, but the difference in quality is astounding. I am also not making assertions about fun. My old TSPP has better quality then the new spike games and I always thought that was a clunker. Disappointing to see the amount of cost cutting that goes on to make profits. Hope Jjp keeps the standard high.

I love JJP games...both for fun/pinball and their build quality...there really is a difference between stern and JJP. That being said when Stern has play field issues (i.e. GB) they stand by their warranty. Its really really disturbing that JJP could give a rats ass.....no doubt this will hurt their business in a big way as I'm not sure how many people want to risk $10K on a new game when u know the company won't stand by their product

I don't even know what "quality" means or how you rate it...are you referring to the weight of the machine?
My JJP machine was littered with problems from design, mechs, clearcoat, and assembly. That's all I can say aboot them became that's what I have encountered personally.
But yeah man...that DI of mine is like, heavy as shit. Strong like bull!

Ok. Try pulling your playfield out. Grind clunk. Shooter lane wood, rough as guts. No posts with protectors at start of ramps and lanes. Manual is awful, tspp was great. Potc although not printed is awesome. Mechanism to remove lock down bar. Come on. Worlds apart. I still love this DP stern game and will rate it highly. But the issues I have had with POTC have now been put a bit into perspective. The playfield issue is bad but I’ve gotta say they get a lot of other things right.

I don't know either....

Clearly there's a nearly complete PC build in JJP games, as opposed to the near Raspberry Pi like hardware in Stern games. Definitely profit there for Stern, but as well as adding weight to the head, I have no idea why they'd have that extra computing power.

Seems like JJP has better sound quality/speaker system as well.

But yes, with all the issues I've had, how much can I praise a more complex, more structurally sound game when price is higher, as well as the fear of cost to damage ratio being higher.

I'm somewhat floating towards a Pro, as a result of feeling like a $5500 investment, and it being a potential shitbox, if far less mentally taxing, than a potential $9500 shitbox.

My lockdown bar and reciever were so fuckered on my JJP Pirates, that it took me three hours to have the thing seat properly. And then the damn yellow lockdown bar wouldn't snap into place. I adjusted the entire receiver, as well as the lockdown bar armature, and it started locking fully. Then for whatever reason, it started not locking again.

The rgb lights, and lack of rgb GI, definitely pale on Sterns compared to JJP. And Sterns translites on the lower two models seem like junk plastic and ink.

My personal opinion is the JJP quality control has to do with the erratic line loads at JJP. Stern keeps their lines up pretty much all the time with SOMETHING, whereas JJP lines don't seem to run all the time, which means you can't have permanent employees but have to rely on a mix of permanent employees and temps, which does not have a good outcome. You need to sift through the chaff to find the best employees over time and you can't do that if your line isn't always running. It why I think JJP should be offering contract builds for other companies smaller than them like Stern does. Whatever it takes to keep that line running and good employees retained.

Just like with Stern and other vendors, my experience with JJP is a grab bag. On balance, though, JJP support is a net positive and I've had more positive experiences than negative dealing with support on every machine JJP has released. I think your opinion would be tempered if you had dealt with support on NIB machines from other vendors on a range of issues. It doesn't always go well with them on every issue. $550 seems high for replacing a damaged JJP playfield on a NIB machine that I will have to repopulate myself in a swap, and I'd be happier with free or $275, but it's at least a solution. A more fair solution? Free or $275 for first owner and $550 for second owners.

The problem with this is they are in a market where their main competitor is at a lower price point and doesn't currently have play field issues. When they did owners were offered fully populated replacements at no charge. I thought about buying Wonka, but didn't because of questionable playfjield quality and lack of support. This is coming from a former WoZ owner. After years of light board problems they finally admit it wasn't designed well and have a $800 solution for those with the time and technical ability to install it. I'm not buying more JJP games until they can demonstrate they can make owners whole on big issues and not just small ones.

What about spareparts? Should buyers worry?

This isn’t exactly true...Stern is having a very similar issue with a couple of their recent games most notably the Beatles although it doesn’t appear to be as widespread. Not sure what their solution is yet though. Mine has been fine since December but I’ve seen a couple out in the wild that have the same issue around every single post on the PF.

I don't have a DP but all the Sterns I've owned have a clear coated shooter lane... Never heard of a roughness? My SW has metal ramp entry guards too?
True on some of your other points though... Although many of them are things I wouldn't pay more for.

Makes sense from a manufacturing level. The real problem is making your customers pay for your mistake. At $550 JJP has a net zero cost for providing a solution...how many people have the skill set/time to actually do a play field swap? I suspect not very many....I don't understand why they wouldn't go back to the play field manufacturer and make them deal with this problem...the real solution is to have the customer remove the play field (even though its a pain in the ass) and send it back to JJP (they provide packing) and they do a swap. That way JJP doesn't have to front all the parts for the machine.

There was a recent thread here with a very minor and purely cosmetic issue on a BKSR pro playfield that wasn't even visible from the players position that Stern agreed to a populated playfield replacement. I personally know several people that were given playfield swaps by Stern for playfield issues that I would consider more minor that many of the issues I've seen in this thread.

I have a Beatles that's fine and can say the same for the one on route locally. I know there is a pinside user that has posted pics of a Beatles playfield with similar issues several times. My guess is Stern will replace it but I do not know any details of that situation, if they didn't replace it I would be surprised and that would be unacceptable to me. If some Beatles owners are having playfield issues that are not being addressed I hope they will start a separate thread. It seems to be brought up in this thread periodically as if to point out that some Stern games have this issue so it should be acceptable to the community. I don't think we should accept these kind of playfield issues on any new game regardless of who made it.

Oh? So that playfield with the wood splinter down in the gutter, got a fill swap???

Wow! That's pretty awesome actually! I remember following that thread months back, never saw the outcome.

This is absolutely not true. Stern has similar issues. Deadpool has art coming off the playfield if you remove guides that were stuck to the clear at assembly. Iron Maiden and Beatles both have playfield clear bunching around posts. It's not nearly as widespread as JJP, but Stern DEFINITELY has similar playfield problems on some percentage of the runs.

There was also a thread recently with a massively warped playfield that Stern would not replace. They're not always great.

In general, Stern and JJP both have their support wins and fails. Having dealt with both on a wide variety of NIB pin issues, I would say they are on balance very similar for support - good.

If any area of a Stern playfield is rough out of the box it might be due wax not being buffed out at the factory prior to shipping. I've had this happen on 1 NIB Stern. The dried wax had been there for a while and was hard to buff out.

That thread where the guy picked up a used Metallica where the cabinet may have been out of square? It wasn't clear how old that game was or what had happened to it or that he even tried to get Stern to replace that. I also have seen pictures of scratched DP play fields that look like they happened while trying to bend a ball guide that was still attached to the playfield. I've also seen dozens of threads complaining about playfield dimpling or cratering and I think it would be ridiculous to replace play fields for that, but not everyone agrees.

I agree that people have reported good and bad customer support experiences with every manufacturer. That said Stern has replaced a lot of play fields that had issues. Personally I can say everyone I know who had a reasonable issue with a Stern playfield got a populated playfield swap or a new unpopulated playfield if that was their preference. I realize that they didn't replace it for every owner that wanted one. That sucks for them I'm sure, but not the focus of this thread.

I feel like a lot of posts in this thread are stuff - like X manufacture refused to do Y implying that JJP has no obligation to address this issue either. I disagree. There are multiple examples in this thread of people with JJP POTC that have not gotten an appropriate solution.

Your original statement was that JJP's "main competitor is at a lower price point and doesn't currently have play field issues."

Which is not true. Stern has had a number of recent documented issues (and went so far as to threaten Beatles owners if they posted pictures of their clear bunching, saying they would not get a replacement if they did, which is not cool, and not pro-customer).

Just pointing that out. Fair is fair, and I have no problem calling out JJP or Stern or any other manufacturer as long as the coverage is fair.

Just wondering what u think a fair solution is to all these play field problems?

I already said what I think is fair from JJP. Read back. I signed up for the $550 replacement playfield program, but am a bit irritated that's the best they could do for a NIB that has bunching out of the box and chipping within weeks. The chipping points to it being a playfield adhesion issue, I don't care what Jack says.

I do not think threatening customers who post pics of playfield issues (like Stern did with at least some Beatles owners with clear bunching) is cool.

I wasn't aware of the threats....thats definitely not cool....Paying almost $10K for a game with these problems warrants more than giving one a play filed (IMHO)...its like giving someone new decals if one is scratched ....nobody wants to go through the effort of changing the decals as its a pain in the ass. I suspect swapping a play field is 10X worse....

In my opinion, Stern doesn’t have playfield issues. This means that I feel it is an uncommon problem in Sterns that they address when it occurs. Your opinion is different and I respect that.

If Stern did tell that individual not to post pics of Beatles with clear bunching it had no effect as I’ve seen those pics posted in multiple threads including this one. In any case it sounds like he’ll get the new playfield he wants if he plays it cool.

"We're sending you out a new playfield, but please keep it hush hush. We are counting on most people not noticing the problem"

Hopefully this is a good sign - maybe JJP is rethinking their strategy on this.

I Can't even put a LEGO set together, let alone try to do a playfield Swap!

I'd guess that the certified letters you sent, as well as this thread might have something to do with it. Otherwise, maybe they ran out of playfields....

I was told they didn't have any currently and needed to wait for new stock when I signed up for one on their program right after it was announced. I personally don't care because I'm not swapping it immediately and just want to have it on hand, so it could come next year for all I care. I just want to make sure I get one.

As of Monday when I spoke with them they had good stock according to Frank.

Harry, you may have been blackballed. I hope not but if So, you know their attorney's are involved. Look back at Jack's email reply that went "I never said..."