Also, this is not a JJP-only issue. It's happening with other vendors as well.

Don’t recall anyone demanding or asking for a populated PF for free.

$550 is too much cash to ask for what appears to be another flawed PF. One member here reported his replacement not passing the nail or scratch test and there was someone else who reported some other type of odd blemish.

At $550 they aren’t losing any money at all, the risk is all on the end user which IS NOT a fair solution.

True and historically Stern has been very good about this. I know there are reports of Beatles having issues but the few I’ve come across didn’t have it at the time.

Only really widespread issue that I can personally comment on is with GB, they had the severe dimpling and ghosted insert issue. Stern was very good about taking care of people on that one.

TNA had a bit of an issue recently although much more isolated and they seemed to take better care of their customers on that.

Personally, I don’t know about you all... I didn’t pay an exorbitant amount of money for what is touted as the “Bentley” of pinball machines to then be told I need to fork over 550.00 for a new playfield (and you need t nuts, Mylar etc) 675 out the door because they are shipping games with playfield defects.

This is not a resolution, it’s a suggested purchase on behalf of JJP. A free playfield is a resolution.

About those playfields and the fingernail test - if I were to get one (I haven't ordered one yet, but might) I'd store it somewhere flat for a year or more. Let it cure and cure and cure some more.

And that is exactly why I'm against torches and pitchforks for JJP. They got caught in this like everyone did, and they are at least providing a workaround and replacement program.

I do agree with both of you... but I think it’s most prominent on JJP? My hope is they take the lead on this and reconcile with the playfield manufacturer, thus helping us all. Don’t get me wrong I love my JJP’s...

For me personally, this doesn't feel reasonable, solution wise.

Let's guess that these playfields cost JJP $400-500. If damage has occurred with normal use, well under a year of use, that definitely feels like an issue that should be covered under warranty. That's what a warranty exists for.

At the very least, with signs of ripples/chips around any posts, the cost for JJP should be halved. As in the customer pays $200-250, and receives free shipping. If that was the initial option, and expressed clearly, say via a twitter feed, facebook post, email newsletter, notifying all owners of said issue, and how customers could repair damage via a claim, then I feel many would be far less irked.

For damages past chipping or ripples, a replacement playfield, unpopulated, could be offered.

I think the issue is a lack of transparency on this issue to begin with, customers having to notify JJP after many months of this occurring, and then no contact directly from JJP to their customers in attempts to resolve this issue.

With minor parts, JJP is very responsive. With this issue, unless you make consecutive calls, and emails, nothing is changing on the customer's end, and that's incredibly disheartening and disappointing as a current, and wishing to be future customer.

I think that's pretty rationally expressed, no?

Here lies the problem with this and I DID have a discussion with Frank about this very subject.

Nobody will say it’s 100% JJP factory assembly issue, Mirco won’t say it’s not their clear coat or art adhesion process.

What happens when the SOB is stored away for 10 years and then the new PF suffers the same fate... chips, ripples, art literally peeling off the wood like a freakin onion?

Let’s just say there was the sound of crickets on the phone line when I asked that followed by....would a good discount on new machine interest me?

I kid you not, all while on my family vacation!

I think so, I told Frank $250 is what I think is fair. It mitigates their cost somewhat and minimizes my additional outlay for something with zero guarantee or warranty down the line.

$550 plus shipping and then install time/cost at some point is simply too much on the end user.

If we want to get semantic, I see this as a JJP responsibility, not totally sure its a JJP manufacturing issue. Like other industries, in which companies use other distributors for parts for their final product, if a part fails... and is under warranty, it’s typically replaced, recalled, reconciled... right? Why is this any different.

This is simply bad customer service, maybe JJP needs to implement “JJP care” like apple care with specific documentation on coverage... I had no clue if I’m a second buyer the warranty is void?!

WOW, that is kinda funny actually

I think at some point it is critical to know the true cause of the damage.

I don’t buy the over tightening of posts with poor quality razor blade edges. Is this a contributing issue? You bet.

That doesn’t address the several of us who have chipping at the out and inlane movable post holes and other areas where these sharp posts don’t exist.

Something else is causing the art and clear to break free awfully easily compared to years and years of play on other machines.

If it is a bad batch from Mirco I would think JJP has to have something in their contract with Mirco to address this without it financially hurting JJP

Hello All,

I read more of this thread than I care to admit, looks like a soft modern playfield and some shotty QC.

I question everyone from the top down that's involved in the manufacturing process at JJP! I don't think any idiot would install a post that's effectively a knife-edge onto their playfield. If all of these posts were like that it should have been rejected by management if it was only a few then the assembly folks should have been tossing them into the trash. I just played a WW SE this weekend and still want one, but the soft playfield was apparent on it after only two weeks on the floor (in a busy arcade) it had dimpling the same as reported on newer Stern games (mine included).

I just very carefully inspected my IM as the top posts on the slingshots are a thin one like this one and I don't see any wrinkling or chipping anywhere. So I think Mirco is partly to blame.

Pirates is still only a wish for me so I won't comment on what a fair solution is, but I certainly feel for you all as I know I'd be upset to find that post digging into a playfield of mine. Hopefully, some of the mitigation ideas will end up working out and that you can continue to enjoy what otherwise appears to be a standout game!

Regards,
Mike
never (resized).jpeg

Seems reasonable on a 10K purchase.

I'd have to think no matter what posts they use, massive amounts of vibration and force from playing, combined with this soft clear, are creating this issue on any and every point of impact on this playfield.

That is my post pictured there and believe it or not, they were all like that except 1 single post.

The Wonka I played was less than two weeks old and just about every single post star or skinny was sunken into the clear with varying degrees of rippling.

That's pretty upsetting to hear that most all of your posts looked like that! So management approved the parts and the monkeys installed them without question.

Darn.

Ugh....

I do wonder where things will be in months, IF Wonka has the same issues.

At that point, JJP would very much need to publicly address this, as then you'd have Pirates, Wonka, and future title owners concerned.

If this is solely a Pirates issue, I don't think much movement past what's been offered, will occur.

“Have we got a deal for you - Spend another $500 with us for a new play field and then pay someone to populate the new play field and install it. How do you like them apples?”

Apples? That’s what I call being served a shit burger! Lol

Sad to say, I bet this is why Wonka is a shadow of Pirates. Cruddy QC aside, the complexity of one game is classic JJP, the other Stern Pro....Plus.

Absolutely awful issues here.

Yep, same happened with many of the TNA games (including mine). Spooky did not offer free replacement playfields, but then I believe most customers didn't expect it from Spooky either.

Today’s games are just too expensive to be pulling these types of shenanigans.

Just wanted to thank Harry for going down the rabbit hole with JJP. As I shared with him, I went down the same path he did. Original owner, registered the day I got it, reported issues within 30 days, cracking at both slings on a new $9500 game back in October/November of last year. All of the staff saw the pics. Jack himself told me that is just pinball and offered nothing. I offered to buy a new playfield at cost and was turned down. Hate to say it but I will not buy new again. Between JJP quality issues and Stern code, it just doesn’t make sense to jump in. Glad others will, more power to you and I truly wish you luck.

Jesus.....

And they never resolved any of this, since?

What's the point of buying a nearly 10K machine to have so many issues corrupting it???

BULLSHIT. I say... I say BULLSHIT. JJP has been having issues with his PFs since WOZ along with quality issues and he has been giving out band aids for it instead of replacing the playfields the whole time. You pay 9-12 K for a game and the pf starts coming apart in less than 1000 plays and he doesn’t acknowledge it or he will sell you another flawed pf. Fuck that guy and the horse he rode in on. I’m sorry but I think you are crazy to buy from him or Stern. Let one game sit and rot and they will get their shit together

No ties. I'm just empathetic. They are a growing business, and setbacks like this can be catastrophic.

If the playfield was sanding off everywhere, I'd be more upset. So far it's localized to the posts which can be hidden from view, so I'm ok with it. Not thrilled mind you, obviously all we want solid playfields, but I can deal.

I honestly believe the folks at JJP want to do right by their customers and want them to be happy.
I do believe their playfield offer is a reasonable one, but we disagree on that point and that's fine.

I also think you catch more flies with honey than with legal threats (which immediately shut any company down and put them into defense mode.)

You keep saying it’s limited to the posts and that is flat out not the case for many of us here.

As far as having empathy, their mistakes are really from a bunch of bad decisions being made from the top all the way down to the line worker. I have no empathy for their BS.

I don't agree, feel that legal action will resolve this issue or course correct it.

I do feel me not buying another game of theirs though, will.

I can do that, far easier than the $9500 I had to earn to buy this game.

To my knowledge, this isn't the start up company it once was, in some capacity. Jack is now the Founder, the Owner is Leonard Abess.

https://www.pinballnews.com/news/jerseyjack8.html

He's no slouch, and neither are his two partner investors.

He's also been kind to his employees, when he needn't be.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-13/this-banker-emerged-from-the-collapse-a-billionaire-hero

I do feel though, that as people that are not employees, but customers, asking simply to be made whole, which translates to possibly a $400 loss per affected customer, is a very, very reasonable think to ask for.

I don't feel anyone at JJP should suffer for my benefit or gain, but I do feel that me buying a high level leisure/gratuitous purchase/toy, should not find me in such a quandary months into ownership.

This process should be fun, not painful.

There is some reason to this, but if it's the same issue with wonka?

I guess the impedance mismatch here is that I am ok "meeting them halfway" because I want them to keep making great pinball machines. Not everyone in the thread is. I do respect your opinions and emotions on the issue.

I strongly suspect the $550 playfield offer is cost. If they were to give those free, to all 1000 buyers, that is a $550k loss.

I'm sure we all agree what a great game POTC is, otherwise everyone would be dumping them and moving on.
Do you want to make the best pinball game made in the last decade a complete financial failure for them?

Here was and is my offer or expectation. I agree cost is around $500. They lose no money here but we all do.

Meeting halfway is fair and halfway in this case is a replacement PF for $250-$275. Risk is shared on both ends. They have to pay for some of this and it keeps my cost low enough to accept the risk of another shitty PF.

They could do this, especially if they were willing to discount a new machine order for me by the same amount or more.

The whole situation is just very bad optics for them.

At 10K a pop, I believe you’re quite generous.

Come on, it’s not all 1000 pf’s let’s be realistic here, or are you now saying the whole run was bad?
JJP’s position is that this isn’t widespread but I’m skeptical.
If you have chipping and chipping in areas other than slings especially, the deal needs to be better than the $550.
Here was and is my offer or expectation. I agree cost is around $500. They lose no money here but we all do.
Meeting halfway is fair and halfway in this case is a replacement PF for $250-$275. Risk is shared on both ends. They have to pay for some of this and it keeps my cost low enough to accept the risk of another shitty PF.
They could do this, especially if they were willing to discount a new machine order for me by the same amount or more.

Do we want to have the best pinball game in the last decade be torn apart at every post within the next five years?

We all know, not even close to 1000 people have had an issue to the degree some have. Let's say it's 100 games. At 100 games, even at $550 equals $55000. If even just 6 out of those 100 buyers, refuse to buy another JJP game due to this significant issue, then they've already lost.....

Lost sales>>>>>>>not even dozens of playfields.

Ideally a free replacement would be nice however I’m getting tired of talking with them about this, been 3+ months of nothing so just trying to find some middle ground.

Believe me, I’m not happy and won’t buy anything from them in the future. Done.

The lost sales really manifests itself when they lose someone who buys every nib game from them or really any repeat customer.

I believe HH stated there are about 83 pinsiders participating in this thread with varying degrees of damage.

Well, I was one of those - I voted (honestly) "had chipping, covered with posts."

And then I bought two Wonkas, so...

Well, as it stands, then two out of those six customers.

I told both Jack and Mike from Automated in February that I was serious about buying the first four games, and would change my lifestyle to do so. I got calls back from them very quickly. Now.......not so much.

So right there, that's 3 tables from me, and possibly one from Psw757

Where's the gain here for JJP?

I know for me, that's a gain of $25-27,000 back in my account over the next two years.

So....you really must feel sorry for JJP I guess, very high level of empathy to do such a thing.

The merit of my post was intended to be, on sorting issues. Keeping up a design flaw seems utterly strange.
Many manufacturers Theese days build their product to only last for a while?
Just look at cars, kitchen appliances, or what ever.

Are consumers of theese very expensive toys however aware that their toys will run out within a ten year span?
JJP has crap playfield, that will look like a potatofield within that time, Stern that spike (good luck finding replecement board for www-game in a couple of years), Chicago gamling has one board to rule them all.

I think most Williams titles, will outlive them all.