Pirates of the Caribbean
Jersey Jack, 2018
Pirates of the Caribbean (CE)
Jersey Jack, 2018
Pirates of the Caribbean (LE)
Jersey Jack, 2018Quoted from Tyamry:I have a CE that I received on April 2, 2019 that has the
washers already installed.[quoted image][quoted image]
Very interesting that those are a totally different washer than what the LE folks have been getting.
no washers installed in my LE I picked up last week. game looks
fine from the factory, one post slightly off center, but no
cracks
or waves.
IMG_20190513_212913 (resized).jpg[att=4993155,1601009
caption=""]IMG_20190513_212925 (resized).jpg[att=4993155,1601012
caption=""]IMG_20190513_212937 (resized).jpg
So why is it that some games are shipping with no washers, some with small lexan washers as wide as post and CE’s with what appear to be a 3/4” metal washer?
Mine came with the small washers. I tried adding the larger
plastic ones, but I don't like the fact that they are so hard and
feel they may cause issues too.
I'm just going to do what I did with my TNA and install
these... I think the softer rubber will work better and at least
ease my mind.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hillman-2-Count-5-16-in-x-3-4-in-Neoprene-Standard-SAE-Fender-Washers/3012346
They don't look any worse than the large plastic ones and
surely look better than a chipped playfield.
Does anyone know where the Lexan washers or mylar stickers can be bought to prevent this kind of damage from happening?
Quoted from gliebig:Mine came with the small washers. I tried adding the larger
plastic ones, but I don't like the fact that they are so hard and
feel they may cause issues too.
I'm just going to do what I did with my TNA and install
these... I think the softer rubber will work better and at least
ease my mind.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hillman-2-Count-5-16-in-x-3-4-in-Neoprene-Standard-SAE-Fender-Washers/3012346
They don't look any worse than the large plastic ones and
surely look better than a chipped playfield.
Let us know how they work out
Quoted from keys88:Does anyone know where the Lexan washers or mylar stickers can be bought to prevent this kind of damage from happening?
Read this ^^^ then saw this at the bottom from the marketplace:
pasted_image (resized).pngQuoted from Tyamry:I have a CE that I received on April 2, 2019 that has the
washers already installed.[quoted image][quoted image]
WOAH... those are HUGE! That is not what we have seen in other games, narrow clear washers.
Quoted from Lermods:no washers installed in my LE I picked up last week. game looks
fine from the factory, one post slightly off center, but no
cracks
or waves.
Have you taken off a post to see if it has a sharp edge on the bottom? Are you sure there aren't tiny washers under the posts?
Quoted from zaphX:I suggest changing the title of this thread:
1. Remove mention of "dimples" as that is a standard unavoidable
pinball issue.
2. Replace "star" with "sling" as the default sling posts are
the ones we're discussing, right?
Done.
Quoted from f3honda4me:But that happens with VUKs if you don't maintain the machine
well or the machine just gets a ton of use like on route.
Look atthe HEP thread where he's restoring pins, or look at
most any
restore thread. I think you should focus on the posts issue
and not include the VUK pic you posted of a routed machine,
or it discredits your concern about the post issue. You're
taking
something not normal (posts issue) and combining it with
something
normal (vuk wear on routed machine) and trying to say it's
the same
issue.
edit: why the heck did pinside add a bunch of returns and format
my post all weird lol?
If you look at the VUK pic the wear is not where the ball is shot out of the VUK, it's to the far left side. It's also not ball rubbing over again and again, it's chipping of the artwork. It's also a game that's under a year old, should you really see this kind of wear that early on? I've restored several games that were much older and have had way less issue on VUK holes and the like. It's not a direct complaint but contributing evidence of some possible playfield quality issues. If we find out that the sling post issues are related only to the sharp lip and tightness (or the lack of a 3rd metal post) then great, but if this information helps steer the conversation towards a playfield replacement, perhaps, then I think it's valuable. Should you really have to cliffy protect your machine within a year to prevent playfield art from being removed?
Quoted from gliebig:So far so good on my TNA.
I was thinking about something similar, for sure. I just didn't have anything handy but I also didn't appreciate the look (having black neoprene squishing out under the sling posts) and worried that the height might also be an issue, but I suppose they squash down a bit. Do you have pics of TNA?
Quoted from Lermods:no washers installed in my LE I picked up last week. game looks
fine from the factory, one post slightly off center, but no
cracks
or waves.
[quoted image][att=4993155,1601009
caption=""][quoted image][att=4993155,1601012
caption=""][quoted image]
well looks like you're in the market for some washers quick! lol
Quoted from harryhoudini:I was thinking about something similar, for sure. I just didn't
have anything handy but I also didn't appreciate the look (having
black neoprene squishing out under the sling posts) and worried
that the height might also be an issue, but I suppose they squash
down a bit. Do you have pics of TNA?
If these squish and don’t move around then I don’t see why they couldn’t be trimmed down a bit.
Quoted from harryhoudini:WOAH... those are HUGE! That is not what we have seen in other
games, narrow clear washers.
Here is a pic of one of the posts. Feels pretty smooth to
me. Sorry I see now that you were not asking me that.
IMG_5183 (resized).jpg
Quoted from Tyamry:Here is a pic of one of the posts. Feels pretty smooth to
me.[quoted image]
That sure looks smoother than this
AB6944D0-8334-43B3-9549-D3DD79267887 (resized).jpegQuoted from harryhoudini:Done.
If you look at the VUK pic the wear is not where the ball is
shot out of the VUK, it's to the far left side. It's also not ball
rubbing over again and again, it's chipping of the artwork. It's
also a game that's under a year old, should you really see this
kind of wear that early on? I've restored several games that were
much older and have had way less issue on VUK holes and the like.
It's not a direct complaint but contributing evidence of some
possible playfield quality issues. If we find out that the sling
post issues are related only to the sharp lip and tightness (or the
lack of a 3rd metal post) then great, but if this information helps
steer the conversation towards a playfield replacement, perhaps,
then I think it's valuable. Should you really have to cliffy
protect your machine within a year to prevent playfield art from
being removed?
Totally normal. This is what happens when machines get thousands or ten thousand plays on route. It's only hurting your quest to get this resolved by looping in normal routed machine wear. I'm trying to help but if you don't understand it I'm not going to keep beating the dead horse then.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-star-trek-with-4938-plays-pics/page/3#post-3246685
Here's a close up pic of the post and factory plastic washer from my 2/4 built game. I can tell the edge of the post itself isn't perfectly even and you can see how its dug into the washer a bit. If the post can dig into a plastic washer it will go right through clear coat.
Here's what I just did. Took the sling plastics off, underneath there was a flat plastic washer. Put that washer under the two front posts and replaced them metal washers, which will protect the plastics. The third sling post with a screw already had a clear washer underneath.
IMG_20190514_134437 (resized).jpgIMG_20190514_134751 (resized).jpgIMG_20190514_134855 (resized).jpgQuoted from Psw757:Side by side
Left is good right is bad[quoted image]
Seems to me like it's the posts that are to blame here. That post on the right would do this kind of damage to any playfield no matter who made it!
Quoted from f3honda4me:Seems to me like it's the posts that are to blame here. That
post on the right would do this kind of damage to any
playfield no
matter who made it!
I agree, I sent this pic to JJP today and discussed this with
Frank.
He was really surprised to see that and I’m pretty confident
this is the culprit.
Check all your posts people! That photo clearly shows what your looking for.
Quoted from harryhoudini:I was thinking about something similar, for sure. I just didn't
have anything handy but I also didn't appreciate the look (having
black neoprene squishing out under the sling posts) and worried
that the height might also be an issue, but I suppose they squash
down a bit. Do you have pics of TNA?
Not my pic but this it what it looks like. IMO, they look better than the large clear ones. Actually, the clear ones are more whitish and really stick out. I didn't like the look of them.
tna1 (resized).jpgQuoted from Psw757:I agree, I sent this pic to JJP today and discussed this with
Frank.
He was really surprised to see that and I’m pretty confident
this is the culprit.
I sent that kind of pic to him 2 weeks ago, FYI.
This damage is NOT normal on a game which is only around 6 months old!
There are Williams game in original condition which still look a LOT better with a LOT more years in play, even a lot of Sterns that I have.
I route Sterns for almost 10 years now and never saw scoops
damaged this bad and I still have games that I bought almost 10
years ago on route!
My stern Indy got a ton of plays, still to this day and the
scoop looks a lot better.
Please don’t normalise this while it really isn’t 
Quoted from f3honda4me:Totally normal. This is what happens when machines get thousands
or ten thousand plays on route. It's only hurting your quest to get
this resolved by looping in normal routed machine wear. I'm trying
to help but if you don't understand it I'm not going to keep
beating the dead horse then.https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-star-trek-with-4938-plays-pics/page/3#post-3246685
Quoted from gliebig:Not my pic but this it what it looks like. IMO, they look better
than the large clear ones. Actually, the clear ones are more
whitish and really stick out. I didn't like the look of them.[quoted image]
Interesting, thanks.
Quoted from harryhoudini:I sent that kind of pic to him 2 weeks ago, FYI.
What did he say?
Quoted from f3honda4me:Totally normal. This is what happens when machines get thousands
or ten thousand plays on route. It's only hurting your quest to get
this resolved by looping in normal routed machine wear. I'm trying
to help but if you don't understand it I'm not going to keep
beating the dead horse then.https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-star-trek-with-4938-plays-pics/page/3#post-3246685
10k plays would be 55 plays on average per day approximately if the game was there the day it came out. This place is open like 5pm-2am most days and the game has only been there a few months, if that. It's a smaller barcade in a smaller town and almost every time we go in there it is only moderately populated. I've been able to play the POTC alone without interruption many times, its not getting 10k plays in that time. I can try to find the owner and get a game count, my machine had the games cleared with the prior update so I don't know how many it had on route but it was built in Aug 18 I think, so it couldn't have been all that many and they already had to install the cliffy on the map hole due to damage. I tried to let the owner know of the post issue but not sure the message got to them. So, on mine 7 months of use maybe and playfield is cracking around the posts and the map hole is messed up... same thing on the game on route, I'd say those things need to be shared in the same post. Even if the map hole is typical wear (which I can't see how that claim stands up) it shows the playfield wear trajectory.
Quoted from Psw757:What did he say?
Thanks for the plfd pics…..Can you provide your game serial
number…..are the balls damaged?……how many plays are on the game?
All that data will get forwarded to engineering and we’ll get you
an answer.
Of course I wrote back right away with that info. Didn't hear
back for some days, wrote back several days later asking for an
update:
Sorry for the delay…I’ll get out you an answer…thanks for the
pics
Didn't hear back, wrote again some days later with the pics from
the routed game
at the barcade I go to (it's been there maybe two months, has
same
wear, I posted pics in the original post here). Haven't heard
back
in 10 days.
I don't really want to start trying to email Jack and get him
involved, but maybe I do? I don't know how that would work,
it
sounds like he has already been made aware and I would assume
Frank
has talked to Jack or at least their engineering team (he
said he
would pass this along). Frank does report to Jack, as far as
I have
been told, so one would assume this has been brought up.
Maybe an
email would be a good idea at this point.
Quoted from harryhoudini:Didn't hear back, wrote back several days later asking for an
update:Didn't hear back, wrote again with the pics from the routed game
at the barcade I go to (it's been there maybe two months, has same
wear, I posted pics in the original post here). Haven't heard back
in 10 days.
I don't really want to start trying to email Jack and get him
involved, but maybe I do? I don't know how that would work, it
sounds like he has already been made aware and I would assume Frank
has talked to Jack or at least their engineering team (he said he
would pass this along). Frank does report to Jack, as far as I have
been told, so one would assume this has been brought up. Maybe an
email would be a good idea at this point.
Whenever I call they answer, I think you can get more out of a
conversation than an email.
Start with Frank and if that doesn’t work they have Jack’s
extension available too.
Quoted from Bingovit:This damage is NOT normal on a game which is only around 6
months old!
There are Williams game in original condition which still look a
LOT better with a LOT more years in play, even a lot of Sterns that
I have.
I route Sterns for almost 10 years now and never saw scoops
damaged this bad and I still have games that I bought almost 10
years ago on route!
My stern Indy got a ton of plays, still to this day and the
scoop looks a lot better.
Please don’t normalise this while it really isn’t
Age doesn't matter. Number of plays does. Look at the ops forum with the documented images of games on route. This kind of wear is normal these days. Maybe they don't "make em like they used to", but today, this is not unique to JJP. Your pins are not immune to this, unless you are trying to say the laws of physics cease to exist inside your pins.
I'm sure I'm wasting my breath here, but anyone here can go look for yourself at all of the modern routed pins documented in the OPS forum and see this is totally normal for a routed pin.
Quoted from f3honda4me:Age doesn't matter. Number of plays does. Look at the ops forum
with the documented images of games on route. This kind of wear is
normal these days. Maybe they don't "make em like they used to",
but today, this is not unique to JJP. Your pins are not immune to
this, unless you are trying to say the laws of physics cease to
exist inside your pins.
I'm sure I'm wasting my breath here, but anyone here can go look
for yourself at all of the modern routed pins documented in the OPS
forum and see this is totally normal for a routed pin.
I remember seeing some pics here a while back where they were several owners whose Mylar wasn’t applied very close to the edge of the map and tortuga holes or even all around the radius.
When I looked at mine it was around the entire lip and as close as it could possibly be.
Make sure you got the Mylar where it is needed and close as possible to the edge.
Quoted from f3honda4me:Age doesn't matter. Number of plays does. Look at the ops forum
with the documented images of games on route. This kind of wear is
normal these days. Maybe they don't "make em like they used to",
but today, this is not unique to JJP. Your pins are not immune to
this, unless you are trying to say the laws of physics cease to
exist inside your pins.
I'm sure I'm wasting my breath here, but anyone here can go look
for yourself at all of the modern routed pins documented in the OPS
forum and see this is totally normal for a routed pin.
How many plays could a game have in 2 months at a relatively low volume barcade?
Quoted from f3honda4me:Totally normal. This is what happens when machines get thousands
or ten thousand plays on route. It's only hurting your quest to get
this resolved by looping in normal routed machine wear. I'm trying
to help but if you don't understand it I'm not going to keep
beating the dead horse then.https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-star-trek-with-4938-plays-pics/page/3#post-3246685
This isn't true. I've got Stern games with tons of plays on route and none of them have pf chipping other than at the outhole lip.
This is one of the reasons I have zero jjp games on route. Top dollar for low quality.
Quoted from harryhoudini:How many plays could a game have in 2 months at a relatively low
volume barcade?
About 2,100
Quoted from Tyamry:I have a CE that I received on April 2, 2019 that has the
washers already installed.[quoted image][quoted image]
Are those metal washers or Mylar?
Quoted from Deez:This isn't true. I've got Stern games with tons of plays on
route and none of them have pf chipping other than at the outhole
lip.
This is one of the reasons I have zero jjp games on route. Top
dollar for low quality.
You quoted my post that is discussing an outhole lip... So you agree with me then.
Post are certainly a major problem here but what about the rippling of the playfield. Isn’t that the clear of the playfield not being right? With clear that is not right couldn’t you get damage in other spots in the future? Also the post were put in at the factory so why wouldn’t the clear crack right there and then when they cranked down on the screws. I would be demanding a new PF that was hopefully done later in the run after the issues were realized. If those PFs even exist.The different washers fiasco is a admission of guilt IMO. Anyone saying this is not that big of a deal because the game plays great is not taking into account resale value down the line with a PF with chips on it. Being out of the pinball game a while and coming back I,m kind of shocked this can happen on a 10K new machine. And then saying to me that’s just pinball your on your own. Can’t think of another expensive product that would try to get away with that. Stunning!
Quoted from Extraballz:Post are certainly a major problem here but what about the
rippling of the playfield. Isn’t that the clear of the playfield
not being right? With clear that is not right couldn’t you get
damage in other spots in the future? Also the post were put in at
the factory so why wouldn’t the clear crack right there and then
when they cranked down on the screws. I would be demanding a new PF
that was hopefully done later in the run after the issues were
realized. If those PFs even exist.The different washers fiasco is a
admission of guilt IMO. Anyone saying this is not that big of a
deal because the game plays great is not taking into account resale
value down the line with a PF with chips on it. Being out of the
pinball game a while and coming back I,m kind of shocked this can
happen on a 10K new machine. And then saying to me that’s just
pinball your on your own. Can’t think of another expensive product
that would try to get away with that. Stunning!
I think it’s a two fold problem linked directly to the posts.
If you look at those pictures I posted you can clearly see the difference in a post with flat bottom and the sharp one with the lip. I think overtime the sharp lip digs in and then the continual impact of the ball pushes the clear into a small ripple which will eventually breakoff. In addition, they were likely over torqued when installed.
Really don’t even think this could happen with a flat bottom as there would be nothin to dig and cut the clear coat.
Quoted from Psw757:I think it’s a two fold problem linked directly to the
posts.
If you look at those pictures I posted you can clearly see the
difference in a post with flat bottom and the sharp one with the
lip. I think overtime the sharp lip digs in and then the continual
impact of the ball pushes the clear into a small ripple which will
eventually breakoff. In addition, they were likely over torqued
when installed.
Really don’t even think this could happen with a flat bottom as
there would be nothin to dig and cut the clear coat.
Yea totally agree. It really sucks that JJP used posts like
these that chipped and damaged their playfields. It's a QC issue
for sure.
Quoted from Psw757:I think it’s a two fold problem linked directly to the
posts.
If you look at those pictures I posted you can clearly see the
difference in a post with flat bottom and the sharp one with the
lip. I think overtime the sharp lip digs in and then the continual
impact of the ball pushes the clear into a small ripple which will
eventually breakoff. In addition, they were likely over torqued
when installed.
Really don’t even think this could happen with a flat bottom as
there would be nothin to dig and cut the clear coat.
So what about the rippling. That’s not because of the post. So if you got nice flat post that didn’t dig in you would only have rippling around the posts that would create a bubble or hump at some point. I still think it is equal parts post and PF on this issue. Wish I was wrong but....... someone posted in the owners thread about seeing a lot of post that cut into PFs. Difference is the PF didn’t come apart as a result. My point is even without the post issue you would still have a significant issue with the playfield IMO.
Quoted from Extraballz:So what about the rippling. That’s not because of the post. So
if you got nice flat post that didn’t dig in you would only
have
rippling around the posts that would create a bubble or hump
at
some point. I still think it is equal parts post and PF on
this
issue. Wish I was wrong but....... someone posted in the
owners
thread about seeing a lot of post that cut into PFs.
Difference is
the PF didn’t come apart as a result. My point is even
without the
post issue you would still have a significant issue with the
playfield IMO.
It seems that the post digs in and then pushes out the clear coat causing the ripple.
Quoted from f3honda4me:The post digs in and then pushes out the clear coat causing the
ripple.
OK. My bad. I thought that just having movement of the post along with a soft PF could cause rippling.
Quoted from f3honda4me:Seems to me like it's the posts that are to blame here. That
post on the right would do this kind of damage to any playfield no
matter who made it!
Post or clear the buck still stops with JJP
Quoted from Tyamry:They are metal. I tried to peel it off but it is stuck pretty
good and I'm afraid it will pull up some of the playfield.
Wow that is really odd
Quoted from Extraballz:OK. My bad. I thought that just having movement of the post
along with a soft PF could cause rippling.
Hard to say but that lip on the bottom of post is pretty big. I think it dug in from being over tightened and then the ball pounds on it and pushed the clear into that ripple. Maybe wasn’t fully cured, no way to know.
These posts are elsewhere on the PF and don’t have this issue which is interesting. I didn’t remove the ones in the star post area or under the ramp but I don’t see any marks or ripples around them.
Quoted from Psw757:Hard to say but that lip on the bottom of post is pretty big. I
think it dug in from being over tightened and then the ball pounds
on it and pushed the clear into that ripple. Maybe wasn’t fully
cured, no way to know.
These posts are elsewhere on the PF and don’t have this issue
which is interesting. I didn’t remove the ones in the star post
area or under the ramp but I don’t see any marks or ripples around
them.
The fact that you say there are other post without the issue was why I said too much movement on the sling post due to design issue along with soft playfield might be causing issue. But yes the uneven sharp post are ridiculous and could be the only issue. As far as PF hardness how are the high end PFs done. Ceramic coating or just multiple layers of clear. If there is a harder clear method out there it should be on a 10K machine IMO. Might not be doable.
Quoted from Extraballz:The fact that you say there are other post without the issue was
why I said too much movement on the sling post due to design issue
along with soft playfield might be causing issue. But yes the
uneven sharp post are ridiculous and could be the only issue. As
far as PF hardness how are the high end PFs done. Ceramic coating
or just multiple layers of clear. If there is a harder clear method
out there it should be on a 10K machine IMO. Might not be
doable.
Not sure regarding high end PF’s but the PF seems hard enough. The game doesn’t seem as prone to dimples like many others so that says something.
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Houston, TX
Sint-niklaas
Here is someone who'd know (PO of my game)
Vernon, BC