(Topic ID: 242867)

PoTC - Who has playfield cracking & wear around sling posts?


By harryhoudini

11 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 2,971 posts
  • 217 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 22 hours ago by cheshirefilms
  • Topic is favorited by 64 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“What kind of issues are you seeing?”

  • I have visible dimples but no chipping 45 votes
    22%
  • I can see chipping but haven't done anything yet 67 votes
    33%
  • I can see chipping and installed mylar, washer and/or larger star post 30 votes
    15%
  • My playfield looks fine (but I haven't removed the star posts) 31 votes
    15%
  • I removed the star posts and my playfield looks fine 15 votes
    7%
  • My game had clear washers installed from the factory 15 votes
    7%

(Multiple choice - 203 votes by 191 Pinsiders)

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#1351 9 months ago
Quoted from Soulrider911:

Got my replacement playfield made some side rails and it’s going on the wall next to the stern playfield as art until I need it [quoted image]

So was this the discounted one?

#1353 9 months ago

What pf is that, it’s beautiful.

#1354 9 months ago

It’s pirates , well both are

#1355 9 months ago
Quoted from Soulrider911:

Got my replacement playfield made some side rails and it’s going on the wall next to the stern playfield as art until I need it [quoted image]

Classic.

#1356 9 months ago

Did you get any notification? I have heard nothing. Would have thought they got all of them delivered.

#1357 9 months ago

In had to follow up twice, the order was just sitting in their que...

#1358 9 months ago

I was cleaning/waxing my playfield yesterday and noticed that a few of the metal posts show the clear-coat ripple. Up until now I would have said I didn't have any issues (no chipping thankfully). Since most of the posts are fine, this would indicate either inconsistent curing times across the playfield, or more likely some of the posts were installed too tightly, or both.

#1359 9 months ago

So if we go for the extra playfield, the consensus is that the printing is not adhered to the wood that well? That’s why the artwork chips away. Otherwise if it was just clear than clear would chip but artwork would stay. I guess the thick clear does not help the situation. But it’s like the bond is stronger between the layers of clear and the printing, rather than the printing and the wood.

Going forward, do we get the extra playfield or are we just setting ourselves up for the same problem again?

I guess if we do go for it, keep in original packaging and lay down flat? If we keep it for years like this can it go off? Some have had bad experiences. I would like to keep for a number of years as insurance if my playfield gets worse.

When I do replace, rubber washers under all posts and don’t over tighten.

Thoughts? I know I am chasing my tail, but a lot of money if it is not a guaranteed fall back or if I can damage the replacement by storing incorrectly or for too long.

Thanks.

#1361 9 months ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

So if we go for the extra playfield, the consensus is that the printing is not adhered to the wood that well? That’s why the artwork chips away. Otherwise if it was just clear than clear would chip but artwork would stay. I guess the thick clear does not help the situation. But it’s like the bond is stronger between the layers of clear and the printing, rather than the printing and the wood.
Going forward, do we get the extra playfield or are we just setting ourselves up for the same problem again?
I guess if we do go for it, keep in original packaging and lay down flat? If we keep it for years like this can it go off? Some have had bad experiences. I would like to keep for a number of years as insurance if my playfield gets worse.
When I do replace, rubber washers under all posts and don’t over tighten.
Thoughts? I know I am chasing my tail, but a lot of money if it is not a guaranteed fall back or if I can damage the replacement by storing incorrectly or for too long.
Thanks.

While I suspect no answer will be a guarantee I believe the art issue is more of a suspect opinion than a consensus. My Opinion (no guarantee lol) is the base of the clear is strong and bonded to the art like nails (permanently bonded to the art). It's the top thick coat that is soft and needing time to gas over and harden. In my opinion if you opt for the replacement and keep it in the really nice box they ship it in, in 6 months (like a fine wine) she will be ready for the high seas! Just do a nail test or other if you want to check on it under the apron area of the playfield. Truth is nobody will know for sure for years if any of this works when playfield swaps happen but my guess is like most time can Cure all wounds (or woods). lol As for rubbers etc, replace as normal just use common sense in how tight you reassemble and enjoy that fun ass game!

#1362 9 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

While I suspect no answer will be a guarantee I believe the art issue is more of a suspect opinion than a consensus. My Opinion (no guarantee lol) is the base of the clear is strong and bonded to the art like nails (permanently bonded to the art). It's the top thick coat that is soft and needing time to gas over and harden. In my opinion if you opt for the replacement and keep it in the really nice box they ship it in, in 6 months (like a fine wine) she will be ready for the high seas! Just do a nail test or other if you want to check on it under the apron area of the playfield. Truth is nobody will know for sure for years if any of this works when playfield swaps happen but my guess is like most time can Cure all wounds (or woods). lol As for rubbers etc, replace as normal just use common sense in how tight you reassemble and enjoy that fun ass game!

This is basically what I'm assuming and hoping as well.

#1363 9 months ago
Quoted from Soulrider911:

Got my replacement playfield made some side rails and it’s going on the wall next to the stern playfield as art until I need it [quoted image]

In the apron area, try pressing a finger nail into it. I'd be shocked if it didnt indent. If it does you have basically the same exact clear job. If that machine is a keep for you then I'd send it off to get a professional clear coat job. Please post the finger nail results.

#1364 9 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

In the apron area, try pressing a finger nail into it. I'd be shocked if it didnt indent. If it does you have basically the same exact clear job. If that machine is a keep for you then I'd send it off to get a professional clear coat job. Please post the finger nail results.

I'd like to see this also.

And for me, if I'd want to use this as a replacement, I wouldn't expose it directly to sun. That's just me though.

#1365 9 months ago

JJP take care of your customers!

#1366 9 months ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

JJP take care of your customers!

Listen, at 9K-12K you can only do so much in terms of quality and overall attention to detail.

#1367 9 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Just sayin...
"Jersey Jack Pinball machines are playable works of art that are built to last and mark unique milestones in the history of the game, providing owners an exceptional value from day one and for years to come."
"We’re passionate about quality and take great care in every game. We also care deeply about our customers and are committed to their satisfaction."

There are two levels of quality. There is the quality that the company talks about on TV----or any other medium, in an effort to get you to buy. And then there is the level of quality that comes face to face with paying the rent. The suppliers. And the employees. I guess we could call it crisis management.

Any company can shout quality from the rooftops. But when problems arise and problems start cropping up in the pipeline, that is where you get to see what the company is really made of: Mainly, is it capitalized with enough cushion to weather the storm(s). History is replete with companies ceasing to exist because management made the wrong calls. Or the company just ran out of money and could not handle the issues. Any young pinball manufacturer could certainly be at risk.
======================

This is where Boeing Aircraft is at right now. Talk about about an expensive product to sell. Management made some bad calls that have come back to bite--- hard. And the customers cannot use the product. The customers want to be made whole---so Boeing is going to have to eat that. Boeing is a well capitalized company, but it depends on how long its crisis lasts.

And it is a little sobering when you consider the Boeing bought up McDonnell-Douglas Aircraft and part of the reason for that happening is that M-D never fully recovered from when a DC-10 lost an engine at O'Hare Airport in 1979 over a quality issue.

hqdefault (resized).jpg
=====================================

I have a picture etched in my mind. On one side is P.T. Barnum who mastered the fine art of selling bullshit. And on the other of that pic side is any (take your pic )corporate CEO wishing he could be like P.T. I suppose this is not very charitable of me, but I'm old enough that I have been jacked over on the fine print too many times.

#1368 9 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

In the apron area, try pressing a fingernail into it. I'd be shocked if it didn't indent. If it does you have basically the same exact clear job. If that machine is a keeper for you then I'd send it off to get a professional clear coat job. Please post the fingernail results.

If this playfield ever gets used, it's going to Ron Kruzman first without a doubt. I don't trust the quality at all. I'll do the nail test tonight, and my estimate... it will dig in, even handling the playfield the surface feels soft.

#1369 9 months ago

Will a play field cure under glass or does it have to have the glass off. Mine is February build and just got it 1 month ago has some slight dimpling around posts and has neoprene under posts after 5 plays and only 20 plays on it ...I know 20 plays been super busy

#1370 9 months ago

Proof is in the pudding, brand new playfield,epic fail on the fingernail test...

To contrast that test, I walked over and did the same test on a Kruzman cleared creature playfield... nothing.

1E1DD42C-A2E7-4E39-B30C-83F313765055 (resized).jpeg
#1371 9 months ago
Quoted from 3pinballs:

Will a play field cure under glass or does it have to have the glass off. Mine is February build and just got it 1 month ago has some slight dimpling around posts and has neoprene under posts after 5 plays and only 20 plays on it ...I know 20 plays been super busy

Mine was February as well, had 95 plays as of a few weeks ago. I still had issues.

Quoted from Soulrider911:

Proof is in the pudding, brand new playfield,epic fail on the fingernail test...
To contrast that test, I walked over and did the same test on a Kruzman cleared creature playfield... nothing.[quoted image]

Fuck...

#1372 9 months ago

Can you post a side view of this spot so we can see how thick the clear is?

20190709_224425 (resized).jpg
#1373 9 months ago

Here two pics kinda hard to tell.. but does not look terribly thick..

7E70CD95-55F7-4A21-93DF-67D3143438A7 (resized).jpegA0DD0A92-DE6A-4042-AFF2-B054447CEF61 (resized).jpeg
#1374 9 months ago
Quoted from Soulrider911:

Proof is in the pudding, brand new playfield,epic fail on the fingernail test...
To contrast that test, I walked over and did the same test on a Kruzman cleared creature playfield... nothing.[quoted image]

Are those dimples just above your mark? It is hard to tell for sure.

#1375 9 months ago

I'm just taking a wild stab here... but bear with me. Is it just me or does the Mirco logo and printing look like it is quite a bit (in relative terms) above the wood? Almost like it's suspended in clear? I wonder if that is the case with all of the printing on the playfield. Are they laying down clear and then art, then clear again? Is that why the clear is so thick? Is that why the art comes away with the clear when it peels off?

I keep going back to why the art is coming away from the wood as well. I would think whatever ink/paint is used would at least "stain" the wood somewhat so wouldn't the playfields at least bit a tiny bit tinted where the artwork has chipped? Maybe the ink bleeds when directly applied to the wood so they have to lay down clear first? With silkscreened playfields this likely wasn't an issue.

Might be a wild goose chase, but it just stood out to me in the images above.

#1376 9 months ago

Is there anyone in this thread who would be interested in co-signing a letter to JJP ownership about this issue? I've been working on a draft and I am hesitant to post it because I feel like there aren't many who would want to put their name down in ink and if that is the case I'll just send it personally. However, I wrote it as a letter that might be able to be sent on behalf of the owners/community who are signing it together. I worded it so it is possible to sign with just your "username" if you wish to try and remain somewhat anonymous. Ideally it would be signed with your real name. I was planning on only adding the names to the copy of the letter actually sent, to protect everyone's privacy. If there is enough interest, I'll post it and open it for changes and suggestions so it represents all signers. Otherwise, I'll keep everyone else out of it and do my own thing.

#1377 9 months ago
Quoted from jellikit:

Are those dimples just above your mark? It is hard to tell for sure.

Yes you are seeing correct dimples, they are small but there

#1378 9 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Is there anyone in this thread who would be interested in co-signing a letter to JJP ownership about this issue?

Sign me up!

#1379 9 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

I'm just taking a wild stab here... but bear with me. Is it just me or does the Mirco logo and printing look like it is quite a bit (in relative terms) above the wood? Almost like it's suspended in clear? I wonder if that is the case with all of the printing on the playfield. Are they laying down clear and then art, then clear again? Is that why the clear is so thick? Is that why the art comes away with the clear when it peels off?

The wood is sealed before art is applied. Probably with the same clear.

#1380 9 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

The wood is sealed before art is applied. Probably with the same clear.

Is it just me does the art seem quite a bit above the wood?

#1381 9 months ago
Quoted from Soulrider911:

Proof is in the pudding, brand new playfield,epic fail on the fingernail test...
To contrast that test, I walked over and did the same test on a Kruzman cleared creature playfield... nothing.[quoted image]

Thank you. As I suspected, the replacement playfields are also affected by the subpar clear. I don't own a POTC but I highly recommend you guys pursue a class action lawsuit. Wonka is proof JJP has no interest in fixing the clear coat issue (let alone Mirco) and by charging POTC owners $550 plus $75 shipping for a crap playfield is just unacceptable. It's about like removing a defective air bag and installing a new defective air bag. Should a legal suit come about I think stipulation of exactly what is considered playfield defect/s, requirement issues must be reported within the one year warranty and only obtainable by original owner. Reperation ideas ... considering the clear issue there's really only a couple options. Buy back (you eat shipping), JJP eats replacement pf cost (option that allows you to pay to get it professionally clear coated or use as is) and then pays to have a shop swap it for you or better yet you send them your playfield (you eat shipping) and they perform the swap.
Anyway just a few ideas. At the end of the day JJP needs to own this. Offering damage cover up discs is ludicrous and charging the customer anything for their mistake is even more ludicrous. Best of luck ladies and gents.

#1382 9 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Is it just me does the art seem quite a bit above the wood?

meh.. I think you are barking up the wrong tree there.

#1383 9 months ago

I think the progression needs to be something like this, and I'm trying to get more details on direct extensions, some ideas on what to say to these guys, etc.

1. Call Frank and email him pictures. If you have not at least done this you are doing a disservice to the community. He is the head of support. You should mention how the playfield is defective, the offer isn't reasonable for you to have to pay more money to fix their mistake, etc. Just so he knows you have the issue and that you aren't ok with what they are offering. We need to have more contact in numbers so they know there is an issue, they are claiming this is isolated and only a few people have reported it and many less taking up the offer on the playfield. Of course they aren't taking the offer, it sucks, but we need to make it known this isn't ok. Probably no reason to mention that this is from pinside, community, etc... it's your own decision and your own feelings on the subject.

Frank Becker
frank@jerseyjackpinball.com
+17323649900
I think he's option number 2.

2. Call Jack and email him. I am working on a phone number/extension (someone post it if they know) He should get a similar speech. He is supposedly the decision maker so plying him to make a better decision is key here. Unacceptable is a good word. I think it might be good to mention that legally victims must be made whole and spending more money on a playfield, lots of time and money to install, is unacceptable for their manufacturing mistake that is a detrimental and fatal flaw that has damaged to the value of your machine in reference to comparable, undamaged playfield machines. Let him know you think JJP is still making money on selling these playfields and there should be no gain for them in this reparation.

Jack Guarnieri
Jack@JerseyJackPinball.com
+17323649900
I think he's option number 4.

3. Call and/or email the investors. If Jack isn't making the calls these guys are. I am working on contact information. I think if investors start hearing there are issues and their time is wasted talking to owners of machines in some fun little company they invested in they may need to take some action. Bad press isn't good for them either, I assume.

Miami-based ThinkLAB Ventures is led by Leonard Abess, an American banker and businessman. Joining Abess’s material investment in the Lakewood, NJ-based pinball machine company are Andrew Paul, managing director of Tudor Investment Corp., and Scott Flanders, chief executive of Playboy Enterprises Inc.

Jane & Leonard Albess Foundation
C/O LEONARD L ABESS JR
100 SE 32ND ROAD
MIAMI, FL 33129

Tudor Investment Corporation
C/O Andrew Paul
200 Elm Street
Stamford, CT 06902
t 1.203.863.6700

51 Astor Place, 11th Floor
New York, New York 10003
t 1.212.602.6700

Scott Flanders, CEO eHealth
Twitter @sflanders1

4. Let me know you will sign a letter you agree with. I'll post it if there is support. Otherwise I don't need the backlash that "anti-playfield-defectives" are going to give me about the language I included. I feel it's very fair and lays out a clear story as to why there is an upset in the community and why owners are unhappy with the perfunctory offer. This letter will my blind signed (I will add your signatures to the letter before sending it) and it will be sent certified mail to each ownership partner I can find in the company. I will obviously post it for viewing and editing but those who will sign it.

5. Legal action. It will cost money but there are several levels of action that can be taken. Minimally a demand letter can be sent, sometimes an attorney letterhead will make the wheels start turning. Especially if inventors are included. This would not be a small claims case and very likely could be a class action but we need numerosity of plaintiffs which suggests not a number but the requirement that "the class is so numerous that joinder of class members is impracticable.” Meaning there are enough people affected by this that it is impractical for all of them to bring suit individually. I asked for lawyers here in the past and no one responded. I have no ties to any legal firm, although my sister is a lawyer (but can't help us) and I have friends who work for large firms who could surely point us in a direction, although the suit will likely have to be brought in NJ or whatever state they are registered/do business in, which is likely NJ.

If there are lawyers here who want to help on this, we can discuss if this becomes an event.

Again, I'm not going to try to move forward with any community based actions unless there is support. If there is no support then maybe JJP is right that it is a very isolated incident and we should all accept their disingenuous offer with more money out of pocket for their mistake. If you don't want your support to be public, PM me. I don't care if others know, but I'll be happy to share the number of people. There are already at least 3 who said they would sign.

#1384 9 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

meh.. I think you are barking up the wrong tree there.

Quite possibly.

#1385 9 months ago

Since Mirco is very silent here. Being a very small producer of new playfields Stern Star Gazer & Seawitch. Also years ago (11) one of the pioneers of using direct ink uv inkjet production. Over the years I have always continued to use Varethane Interior Waterbourne Gloss (Home Depot) to seal the sanded playfields old or new before ink (2 coats). The last 11 years they went after printing for clear coats. 2 coats of automotive clear, some contractors may of misted before first coat.

Since the high cost of finish clear coats by my local contractors, & some times not the best results. Later this month I am moving on to doing 2 coats of Varethane over the uv ink, & then likely 2 finish auto clear coats. A problem lately is weep holes at the edge of some inserts. So if I can make sure they are not a problem. It avoids higher costs to fix or do more finish clear with the contractor!

**In the past with many failures. I mentioned that it was from too much finish clear being applied & not allowed to off gas! Some playfields would actually react badly with black ink. People at Expo when I first brought the first restorations, they were still soft going into a box. Most finish clear coat contractors will speed up the process with heat lamps, or air dry. Hope this helps out. I would guess that Mirco, CPR, & others are using a similar product to seal the wood initially to save money (why waste auto clear to seal wood).**

#1386 9 months ago

Mirco is considered a small producer of playfields!?! They appear to be the single largest.

#1387 9 months ago

No I am one of a group of very small producers of playfields. But share my experience & some failures here. Most big suppliers will not disclose their secret process here. Same with backglass production, thanks Spooky!

#1388 9 months ago

Wonder if CGC has any issues with their playfields? If not, then JJP should start using them for playfields!

#1389 9 months ago
Quoted from 3pinballs:

Wonder if CGC has any issues with their playfields? If not, then JJP should start using them for playfields!

Do you know who produces theirs?

Some interesting info:

American Pinball source their playfields from two different suppliers, and there are a few telltale differences between them, such as the type of pattern used to diffuse light in the inserts and the hardness of the wood.

First, T-nuts are hammered onto the playfield to hold the devices

https://www.pinballnews.com/site/2018/10/17/american-pinball-visit/

The last sentence there really got me. Some people seem to swear by not hammering them in.

Some issue with Houdini playfield: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/houdini-is-eating-its-playfield

#1390 9 months ago

I thought CGC made theirs in house

#1391 9 months ago
Quoted from 3pinballs:

I thought CGC made theirs in house

Doesn't sound like it from that recent article.

#1392 9 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

First, T-nuts are hammered onto the playfield to hold the devices

I can't see a problem with tapping them in with a hammer. I agree that the author makes it sound like something sinister is going on. But if you are not hammering them in, you can pull them in with a spacer and a screw/bolt, but this would be slow, cumbersome way to install hundreds of T-nuts per day. You could press them in but no you need a press with a large size working table and the challenge is how to do this to hundreds of play fields with out them getting scratched up during the press process.

Until I can know more, my opinion is that hammering them in is the least offensive way to place a T-nut on an assembly line.

#1393 9 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Doesn't sound like it from that recent article.

CGC does make them. CGC was born from Churchill Cabinet Company and CCC made a lot of the PF's for WMS back in the day.

#1394 9 months ago
Quoted from Only_Pinball:

CGC does make them. CGC was born from Churchill Cabinet Company and CCC made a lot of the PF's for WMS back in the day.

I'm dumb. I was thinking it was American, durr.

#1395 9 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Do you know who produces theirs?

CGC - aka Churchill cabinets - is probably the oldest playfield contractor in business and still producing pfs.

They were one of several producing play fields in the heyday and afaik the only one from the 80s and 90s still doing it.

#1396 9 months ago

Nice! Dang, looks like JJP needs to talk to them!

#1397 9 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

CGC - aka Churchill cabinets - is probably the oldest playfield contractor in business and still producing pfs.
They were one of several producing play fields in the heyday and afaik the only one from the 80s and 90s still doing it.

What is afaik.? Yes why not give CGC the business and keep it in the states?

#1398 9 months ago
Quoted from 3pinballs:

What is afaik.? Yes why not give CGC the business and keep it in the states?

As far as I know

#1399 9 months ago

How about this for a solution? JJP has to provide their artwork to CGC and produce playfields for those of us who have chipping and make discounted playfields available for those who do not? At least we might have some assurance that they won't have the same issues.

#1400 9 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

How about this for a solution? JJP has to provide their artwork to CGC and produce playfields for those of us who have chipping and make discounted playfields available for those who do not? At least we might have some assurance that they won't have the same issues.

Great idea!!!!

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