It sure seems like this is what is going on with at least one individual who was their most vocal critic only a short time ago.

I haven't played many of their original games, but agree on emulation. I tried Robotron on an Arcade Legends once and it was unplayable due to controller lag. Screen seemed to be running about 3 frames behind the action... not good at all

The Arcade Legends I had was original code on all the games on it and played great, but the controls were really in a cramped position. The generic 50 in 1 machines use emulated and can be pretty bad.

I had Rick threaten to ban me from the forum via PM three times because my posts were negative. Then he offered to help stick up for me and make sure I was happy with whatever resolution I got from CGC for my inserts.
He strung me along IMO trying to keep me quiet, but then in the end offered no real help and told me to direct my questions to my dealer.
This is probably why you are not seeing more complaints on his forum.
I am glad to see people starting to get a bit more vocal there now and that someone restarted the inserts thread that he decided to lock.

Hopefully, this is a one and done for PPS/CGC.

Maybe he'll send you some Xanax.

Rumor has it that CGC paid for the rights to remake 6 titles.

I have MMRLE 991 and I can definitely vouch for the insert problem. My white inserts with the kings look very faded, especially the smaller ones. When they are lit, if you weren't familiar with the game, you'd have absolutely no idea what they say when they are lit. The other inserts seem to be fine. I'll be opening a ticket with CGC - although I'm pretty annoyed, because I specifically requested that they install one on my machine BEFORE sending it out. That request was ignored.

Other than that, the game plays great from what I can see so far.

I'll take some pictures when I get home from work tonight.

I'm sorry to hear that. I know you (and quite a few others) have been waiting for a long time. Hopefully one day they'll get through these misprints and we'll start hearing that they are back to normal.

But why should THIS group of buyers take it on the chin? Who would have thought this company (either one) would turn out to be so friggin' AWFUL. What a way to treat your customers.

Rick is one of the best businessmen I have seen in a long while. Their strategy is simple, to keep the rabble quiet while they finish delivery of the last of the LE games so they can record that money as income. Promised solutions that will come later, more QA going forward, yadda, yadda, yadda. The truth is they knew they had way to many playfields to fix this problem so they are powering through them regardless. If they even scrapped one over light ink I would be surprised. Until folks really get their attention in the only way they will notice this will continue. You guys have been using a credit cards to pay for these things, haven't you?? As a customer you should be satisfied with your purchase, only in this industry do folks seem to want to settle for less than that...

Is it too late for a charge back?

The PPS forum is not heavily used and people likely get thrown out for bringing up the negatives. I doubt many feel they are free to say what they want there without the consequence of getting kicked out.

At this point I think I would much rather cherry pick from the better Sterns and JJPs than to buy CGC games.

The reason most people don't want to do chargebacks is probably because people actually LIKE the game. No one is wanting a refund. I mean, everyone purchased this game because they're huge fans of the original MM.

Owners are wanting a suitable resolution, which doesn't seem to have been provided thus far. Although I'm sure that chargebacks would definitely get their attention and realize that all this ghetto rigging isn't going to cut it on an 8K machine.

If it was me and I got a defect but still wanted one, I'd charge it back, tell them to come get it and get another instead. Maybe one that was already opened. But that's just me.

Yes, I do believe a charge back will result in the greatest satisfaction to the customer.

If nothing else it will wake up the warranty and quality control departments.

Unfortunately, I believe it is the only thing which will wake them up.

The only flaw in the big chargeback plan is most people paid for their MMRs three years ago. There's gotta be a statute of limitations there right?

In most instances, you are correct. However, Amex has been known to make an adjustment in what they deem a "special situation". Amex states, "For U.S. accounts, we will make an attempt to open an investigation regardless of the age of the transaction".

I can't emphasize this enough, always use Amex.

The software CGC have developed works fine on MMR. An update has solved the 'tearing' problem (which for the life of me I cannot see) and some sound issues.
The inserts are what they are. To some on the more anal side they kill the game, for others they probably wouldn't even notice them unless they were notified about them. Certainly no-one who has played my game has ever mentioned them.

It is hard to capture inserts on an iPhone. The camera goes back and forth between accentuating the text or the light - which makes them look better or worse, depending on how the camera chooses to focus.

This is the best I could get, which is a little BETTER than it actually looks in person. But not by much.

image_(resized).jpeg

Who pays for something three years before it's made anyway? I guess the reality of that situation is you get what you paid for. Or in their eyes you'll take what they give you which is better than nothing.

Could you make those images a bit more grainy?

I think the top one is the original they modeled the remake after.

I agree, that I think part of the issue is due to the jeweling - or it could potentially be due to the clearcoat that they used. Just from looking at mine while playing, I can see how a diffuser would reduce those hotspots and would help out significantly. I still think it's a lame fix - but I won't judge completely until I have one.

It's amazing how dismissive you are. You said you only read the MMR thread since you've paid for you're game in April yet the issue started 3 months back. You say there must not be a problem because only one person posted pics to this thread when if you had looked back in the MMR thread you would see when the issue started and a ton of pictures of people's games. Why would people post pics here when there's already a thread for that?

I don't own one nor plan to in the near future but I do try to sympathize with people who paid a lot of money for a game. I have been watching the MMR thread for a long time and it has definitely made a negative impression of CGC. I would never preorder and make sure all of the issues were ironed out before I ever attempted to buy a game from them.

If you go to MMR Unboxings, search "inserts," and scroll down to the 16th post, you'll see one of the very first posts regarding the issue. Keep scrolling down and you'll see pictures and a lot of people who had the problem. Here's a link...

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/mmr-unboxings?tq=inserts&tu

Here's another thread dedicated to MMR issues...

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/early-production-run-mmr-owners-help-needed

People, just accept what you have. You are not getting a new playfield. CG/PPS is not throwing out playfields with known problems. They are still trying to ship games paid in full from 3 years ago. They are not going to spend one penny to fix anything. If they fix something now, they will have to fix 500 games shipped previously and that isn't going to happen. It is what it is. You have a fixed LED blasting some shit made plastic insert and it gets distorted.

When they announce their next game, it will sell out before even shipping. Everyone will pay 8K for the next williams remake that will ship in 2018 or so. They will try to make the inserts/insert illumination better in the next game but there will be other issues.

But for the love of baby Jesus, don't think that they are going to go out of their way (and especially out of their pocket) to fix anything.

Sold out product before shipping = you get what you get. Just live with it.

It remains to be seen how enthusiastic the public is going to be about the next one.

"sold out to a bunch of people who are happy to send in $8,000 and wait 3 years" might be a one time thing after all of this.

Here's a real easy comparison. MMR just posted vs my MM original. Note that my original has an LED that's much brighter than the MMR (thus the way off light level) .. note that it's still opaque even with a small LED sun behind it

Edit: someone repost pic so erak can see it

mmmm_(resized).png

Repost from Metallik
"Here's a real easy comparison. MMR just posted vs my MM original. Note that my original has an LED that's much brighter than the MMR (thus the way off light level) .. note that it's still opaque even with a small LED sun behind it"

image_(resized).png

Yeah not only that but the brighter the LED I put in my MM (and every other machine) the darker the text would look because of the contrast. None of this "washing out" crap. That's actually what Metallik's pic proves.

The issue is pretty straightforward. I don't get why one guy is trying now months later to muddy the waters... "I THINK mine is as good as an original. But maybe not"... "here's some shit pictures to try to make myself feel better" Jesus work it out in your head and let others decide what course of action they want to take.

It's like some confused stream of consciousness that he's just making up as he goes along. In the meantime new owners are checking in each day and stating they still are getting the lighter castle inserts. It's damned irritating.

-edit: I shouldn't get pissed at the OP. My original assessment of his motivation for this thread was correct. He just wants to feel better about his purchase and that's 100% understandable.

That puts the irritation back where it belongs... the two companies involved. You shouldn't have to get defensive, demand pics, ignore other owners observations, whatever to feel good about an 8k purchase. Especially one that was headed in the right direction just a short time ago... but maybe somehow they did print 1500 of these PF's without ever checking them along the way. Very strange business model but what do I know? They must know what they're doing right?

It makes me wonder what new term PPS will add to our vocabulary in the next remake. In the last twenty years I had never heard the term "faded insert". Now we have it. They have left their semi-transparent mark on the hobby and history!

Ok I agree... not very funny. I will NOT be here all week folks!

I really wanted an afmr... this saga reminds me why Ricky and his minions won't be getting my money.

The fact that he continues to ship shit pfs with poor ink coverage speaks volumes.

Clearly, they blew it.

Looking at a few MMr a few weeks ago, I think the main reason for all the hoopala is that the old Diamondplate on the original Williams is cloudy and opaque, the new MMr have crystal clear coating.

The new MMr lighting is much more intense because the old cloudy Diamondplate defuses and blocks the light.

In my picture, there is far more light coming through the original insert than the repro. The pattern on the insert isn't visible because the light overwhelms the camera. I do agree the jeweling is more visible on the remakes, but the transparent ink is still the biggest problem.

I thought you said you had the diamond plate formula, have you ever done any pfs using the williams recipe?

I have the actual Diamondplate mixed up by Dupont from a client that worked there and wanted a "true" restoration.

It's really hot stuff that melts decals - not fun. There are much longer lasting, clearer clears available today than DP from 30 years ago.

I've give you clearer, but wouldn't rows and rows of 30 year old games still sporting DP and looking good kind of be the definition of "longer lasting". Not everyone has sanded down their original games and redone them. I have a basement full of DP relics that look really good IMHO.

95% of every original TAF mansion is chewed up, every WH2O has wear on the upper playfield and mine kickout, every MM has wear over the sword fight inserts and blue knight.....DP, although better than the old lacquer coatings, was crappy cloudy clear.

Pinsiders are spoiled by all the nice games they see in other's collections, at shows, that they have shipped to them from far away.

The games I service are not owned by Pinsiders. They are regular games, with regular wear, owned by regular people. Nothing fancy, nothing cherry.

worn_congo_(resized).jpg

worn_AFM_(resized).jpg

worntz_(resized).jpg

Vid with all due respect... those are NOT machines with "regular wear". Those pics are some of the worse you could ever find of blown out,
100,000 game neglected machines. It's a testament to their popularity that they got THAT kinda play.

The REAL question is... who would ever play Congo that much?

I mean I like the volcano shot as much as the next guy but really now...

The longevity of these 20+ year old games is largely determined by how they were treated, and not related to specific attributes of the clearcoat. Rusty balls will destroy any playfield coating. 300K plays will also do a number to a playfield. Games that aren't cleared properly tend to fail early (see that crazy Star Trek Pro picture, or the Met playfields with chipping paint).

And it's not a debate about the newer CC being better... I would hope it would be.

But if LED's + newer clear = grey ink inserts then all new Sterns, etc would have the same washed out look as this "new batch" of MMr's...
and would probably come with their own plastic sheet.

The first batch of these MMr's looked great... there were some registration issues in the sense that the lower inlane and outlane switches were off center from the PF art but other than that... nobody complained. Quite the opposite reaction actually.

On pinside or at an expo, you can find lots of non-Diamondplated games, decades older than the WPC games, that look excellent - because they have been cherrypicked by collectors.

But the normal games I go out and service look like, well, normal routed games.

DSC00003_(resized).jpg

xenon_wear_(resized).jpg

I'm pretty sure on most Stern machines the black text on the inserts are backed with white. I can imagine on MMR to back the small text on the king inserts with white would cause some registration issues with things lining up properly on that tiny font from one layer to the next