(Topic ID: 109378)

Pool Sharks wont boot - R.I.P - Williams system 11 - no diagnostics or blanking


By Daddy-o

4 years ago



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  • 91 posts
  • 16 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Daddy-o
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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There are 91 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 4 years ago

So I picked up a new pin and it doesn't boot. I get sound and g.i. lighting, no score, no credits and no game start. When I opened the backglass, I notice I have no diagnostic or blanking L.E.D. I see what looks to be solder on a trace? and there is no wires for j-1?. I also am going to need to hunt down a schematic. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Mark

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#2 4 years ago

Your battery holder is shot from previous leakage, clip that thing off the board now so no damage to the board occurs if it hasn't already.

What does the diagnostic LED do at first power up? Does it just never come on at all or does it blink a number of times?

Once your battery holder is removed and any leakage addressed, get the batteries relocated off the board or eliminate them completely with this...

www.LockWhenLit.com/anyPin.htm

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#3 4 years ago

Hi Rob,
Yes, I have a new battery holder. As for the LED, I don't get ANY diagnostic or blanking

#4 4 years ago

Look at this from a systematic process

1) Are all fuses in the game the correct value, and not blown?
2) Is the power supply producing the correct voltages? You're concerned with +5 and +12 at this point.
3) Unplug everything but 1J17, and power the game on. Do the LEDs stay in the same state they are in now?

After #3, I take the board to the bench, using an old computer power supply that I wire to 1J17 to provide the +5 and +12 to the board. I usually go with Leon's Test ROM on a locked CPU, although I'll admit I often swap the processor before I go to Leon's Test ROM, since it's socketed and I pretty much always have a spare 6802 on hand.

I don't know what your abilities and limits are, so before I go on with more diagnostic information, I thought I'd stop here and see what your thoughts are. A good schematic and a logic probe will come in very handy. I like an actual printed manual - not a PDF - in this case, as PDF schematics are often tough to read.

#5 4 years ago

Hey John! Thanks for your input. I like the systematic approach also. Skill wise,I don't have an electronics background but I am willing to learn! It will also be my 6th pin that has not worked. Glutton for punishment I guess. I will start with 1 and 2. then work my way into 3. The previous owner said he believed it was a powerboard issue. He said that some areas did not have proper power. One thing that I am hoping will be a benefit is that this game is a Williams 11c and I have an 11b in my collection. I will starting testing things in the next day or so.
Mark

#6 4 years ago

1 - fuses are good
2 - voltages on power board: +5, +12, -14
3 - removed all plugs from mpu except 1J17: LEDs are unchanged. only +5 is lit

#7 4 years ago

When I turn off the power the blanking led does one quick dim blink

#8 4 years ago

Any chance you have a logic probe? Or a spare 6802?

#9 4 years ago

I can pick up a logic probe if needed. on the 6802, can I pull one from my system 11b or system 9 or system 6?

#10 4 years ago

I was just thinking that might be a quick way to test the 6802 and see if it's bad. Maybe put the 6802 from the pool sharks in another game and see if the other game boots with the 'suspect' 6802

#11 4 years ago

One time I bought a Pool Sharks not working and there was something special I had to do with that area game to get it to work . Never ran into that on any other game . Just can't remember what . Seams like something to do with the door switches .

#12 4 years ago

6802 from Pool Sharks boots up Space Station
Mpu:
TP1 to ground strap shows good connection
TP1 to TP2=4.9vdc

#13 4 years ago
Quoted from TenaciousT:

One time I bought a Pool Sharks not working and there was something special I had to do with that area game to get it to work . Never ran into that on any other game . Just can't remember what . Seams like something to do with the door switches .

Beat it with a hammer Just kiddin' - everything is unplugged from the mpu (except power) so that takes any door switch out of the equation.

#14 4 years ago

Question:
On the L.E.D.s, the blanking and diagnostic lights are out. what do the have in common that I should be looking at?

#15 4 years ago

I should of said test switches on the door - inside the door ? Maybe someone can pipe in with a Manual .

#16 4 years ago
Quoted from Daddy-o:

Question:
On the L.E.D.s, the blanking and diagnostic lights are out. what do the have in common that I should be looking at?

The game did not initiate code. Could be processor, ROMs, RAM, something is keeping the code from even getting to the basic level and implementing diagnostics.

My first thought without seeing the board in person is battery leakage got into the ROM or CPU sockets. Next thought would be bad ROMs (since you've confirmed the processor is good).

Keep only 1J17 connected and swap ROMs with your other game.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

-1
#17 4 years ago

The game specific roms?

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#18 4 years ago

I put the roms from Space Station into Pool Sharks - no change in led status.

#19 4 years ago

Strange thing, when I put the S/S roms back into Space Station it had the same issue as Pool Sharks, only the 5v led and it would not boot. I pulled them and re-seated and S/S booted back up. Pools Sharks is unchanged.

#20 4 years ago

Is the machine booting up really that important? Perhaps we just grab a beer and admire the backglass? Seems like that little silver ball bouncing around could be a distraction

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#21 4 years ago

So I guess my next step is to lay my hands on a logic tester and figure out how to check the clock?

#22 4 years ago

Picked up a logic tester and tested the clock at pin 39 on the 6802 and there was no fluctuations. Just a solid tone. Also tested pin 40 (which is reset?) it too had a solid tone.

#23 4 years ago

So played around a little with the logic probe. When I test the bottom 4 legs on the left of the 6802, I get a solid tone. when I do the same on my space station, only the bottom left gives a solid tone and the next couple of legs give beeps. I also swapped the 6802 from Space Station (again) no change.

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#24 4 years ago

When I hold the probe to the "reset" spot and turn the machine on, the signal goes from low to high. What to check next?

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#25 4 years ago

I am at the end of what I am able to do. Perhaps its life has come to an end. Time to part it out?

#26 4 years ago

There's a great tech in Stockton who could probably diagnose it for you if you bring it to him. I've had him do several jobs and it's been very reasonable.

I think for what you have into it it would be too early to part it out. Want to sell it to me at cost?

#27 4 years ago

I called a guy in Benicia and he wanted $90 an hour plus shipping. I really want to get this thing booted up! But I am up against a brick wall with a lack of knowledge. It has to be something easy in the first part of the board?

#28 4 years ago

That's not unreasonable and these guys typically work very quickly. It'll be cheaper (no shipping) if you can pull the board and deliver it to him. Assuming he has something to test it with.

#29 4 years ago
Quoted from Daddy-o:

I called a guy in Benicia and he wanted $90 an hour plus shipping. I really want to get this thing booted up! But I am up against a brick wall with a lack of knowledge. It has to be something easy in the first part of the board?

That would be Chris Kuntz, and he is easily one of (if not the best) repair tech in Northern Ca. He will get that game fixed.

#30 4 years ago

You've proven that the reset circuit is working.
Good first step.

There are many possible causes for what you are observing.
Too many to walk a (forgive me) newbie through.
You would be well served by sending the board to one of the pros to repair it.
Clive, Rob Anthony, or I can fix it. There are others of course.
LMK if you'd like to ship it to me. I have the System 11 test rig fired up.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to g for Pinball Repair Info

#31 4 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

You've proven that the reset circuit is working.
Good first step.
There are many possible causes for what you are observing.
Too many to walk a (forgive me) newbie through.
You would be well served by sending the board to one of the pros to repair it.

I do think I am at the end of what I am able to do. If I knew what to test, I would.

I found a deal on a new Rottendog board for about $225. If I have my current board repaired (I guess with shipping it would be at least $100 and several weeks wait) at the end of the day, I still have a 25 year old board. I am thinking I will just buy a new board.
Mark

#32 4 years ago
Quoted from Daddy-o:

I do think I am at the end of what I am able to do. If I knew what to test, I would.
I found a deal on a new Rottendog board for about $225. If I have my current board repaired (I guess with shipping it would be at least $100 and several weeks wait) at the end of the day, I still have a 25 year old board. I am thinking I will just buy a new board.
Mark

If you want fast, Kris @ Firebird pinball is your man. Reasonable prices and very quick.

#33 4 years ago
Quoted from Daddy-o:

t the end of the day, I still have a 25 year old board.

Yup...and they still work great!
--
Chris Hbler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chiblerPinball/ndex.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#34 4 years ago

please do not part Pool Sharks, I have seen far too many parted on ebay and production was fairly low, and I think it's a very underrated and fun machine.

If you have reached the end of the road with it, hit me up with what you'd want for it.

Thanks, James

#35 4 years ago
Quoted from Daddy-o:

I do think I am at the end of what I am able to do. If I knew what to test, I would.
I found a deal on a new Rottendog board for about $225. If I have my current board repaired (I guess with shipping it would be at least $100 and several weeks wait) at the end of the day, I still have a 25 year old board. I am thinking I will just buy a new board.Mark

No no no....that original board is repairable. Like Chris said, it is not an easy repair. Let him look at it for you. You will save money having it repaired. You can clean up the machine while you wait for the board to be repaired. I bet you get your board back about the time you are finished cleaning it. I vote for staying away from the RD board.

#36 4 years ago
Quoted from Daddy-o:

I called a guy in Benicia and he wanted $90 an hour plus shipping. I really want to get this thing booted up! But I am up against a brick wall with a lack of knowledge. It has to be something easy in the first part of the board?

Quoted from dsuperbee:

That would be Chris Kuntz, and he is easily one of (if not the best) repair tech in Northern Ca. He will get that game fixed.

You should see if he will let you take it too him and ask if you can be there when he works on it. I may be wrong, but I swore I read somewhere that he doesn't mind if people are there during a repair and may even explain what he is doing. He is super passionate about pinball and really knows his stuff. Could be a good lesson in board repair while getting yours fixed. If this was my game thats what I would try first.

#37 4 years ago

You guys don't like Rottendog?

#38 4 years ago

Clive, Chris, Rob, myself or any number of folks can fix the original board for you.

If you go the Rottendog route, I'm interested in buying your original board. Drop me a line if you go that route.

#39 4 years ago

My opinion is only use aftermarket if the board has a lot of acid damage or a lot of hacks or burned traces.

#40 4 years ago

That opinion is similar to mine, but it depends a lot on the OPs abilities, desires, and intended use of the game.

If a quick flip is intended, a replacement board might be the best choice. Selling off the original board, intact and unharmed, but not working, would offset the cost of a replacement.

If the OP can't diagnose/troubleshoot, for whatever reason, sending it out is going to be the most cost-efficient choice; it'll be less than replacing it with aftermarket, but that does take some time.

And, if skills on diagnosis/troubleshooting are weak, it's likely that the OP will do more damage trying to repair it than they realize, potentially taking a single problem, and introducing several more.

Do you want it quick, or do you want it cheap? Usually, cannot have both.

#41 4 years ago
Quoted from johnwartjr:

That opinion is similar to mine, but it depends a lot on the OPs abilities, desires, and intended use of the game.
If a quick flip is intended, a replacement board might be the best choice. Selling off the original board, intact and unharmed, but not working, would offset the cost of a replacement.
If the OP can't diagnose/troubleshoot, for whatever reason, sending it out is going to be the most cost-efficient choice; it'll be less than replacing it with aftermarket, but that does take some time.
And, if skills on diagnosis/troubleshooting are weak, it's likely that the OP will do more damage trying to repair it than they realize, potentially taking a single problem, and introducing several more.
Do you want it quick, or do you want it cheap? Usually, cannot have both.

I am not looking for a quick flip. I just want to fire up the game and play a little. I think $230 for a Rottendog board that sells for $345 is a smokin' deal. I sold my Gorgar to make room for this machine, so I have a little extra in my toy fund at the moment. I am not trying to go cheap. I have only $100 invested so far. Add the new board and I am still under $350. That leaves room to get the original board checked out by a pro in the future.
I have cleaned the playfield (no wear at all), put new rubber on, installed all new fuses, changed about 50 bulbs, put in a whole new bank of drop targets, and cleaned the plastics. The machine is ready to play-well except for the whole booting issue. There may also be a display issue. Previous owner said the displays were acting a little wonkie and I am not finding 100 volts.

#42 4 years ago

If you don't have the +100 or -100, the original displays will never work.

At that point, you may want to have the power supply serviced as well - unless you feel like getting a set of LED displays, at which point, all you need is the +5 to power them.

#43 4 years ago

Since we are talking price of Rottendog Sys 11 boards, what is the going rate for a gently used board?

#44 4 years ago

I have the -100. The +100 looked to be about 8. I could be wrong. I got interrupted by a phone call at the exact moment I looked at the meter, and have not made it back to recheck yet. The previous owner admitted to doing some soldering on the power board. I just hope the game play is decent enough to warrant all of this work.

#45 4 years ago
Quoted from DocRotCod:

Since we are talking price of Rottendog Sys 11 boards, what is the going rate for a gently used board?

I have not run across a used one in my search.

#46 4 years ago

I will have one available first of next week if yours falls through FYI. PM me if you need one.

#47 4 years ago
Quoted from DocRotCod:

Since we are talking price of Rottendog Sys 11 boards, what is the going rate for a gently used board?

So what is the going rate for a gently used sys. 11 board? Which 11?

#48 4 years ago

Interesting game. Wait, yet another talking head with a moving jaw? Time for a thread on that...
-mof

#49 4 years ago

From what I see, Sys 11A boards are in the $350 range or so. Sys 11B a little cheaper, Sys 11C even cheaper, but all still in the $300 range.

I have a Whirlwind, and it does not like the Rottendog board. If you search on Pinside, a lot of people have issues with Rottendog boards (I did), and some don't. I'm not having problem with mine, per se, but it is more of a compatibility issue with the sound mixing and Whirlwind.

Personally, I'd choose a working original WMS board over a replacement any day.

Perfect reasoning: Look how many guys offered to help fix your original board. Look how many people would step up to fix an aftermarket board. It's the same reason I prefer a original MM over a remake.

Different strokes for different folks - this is just my opinion.

#50 4 years ago
Quoted from mof:

Interesting game. Wait, yet another talking head with a moving jaw? Time for a thread on that...
-mof
ยป YouTube video

Nice light show! The kids should really like this machine. That right drop target at 2:35 seems a little sluggish.

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