(Topic ID: 143963)

Poly vs. auto clear...

By Pinfactory2000

8 years ago


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  • 34 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 years ago by Langless28
  • Topic is favorited by 9 Pinsiders

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    #2 8 years ago

    Pretender #1: Polyurethane

    Poly is what people think of when they think "clear protective finish".

    This "oil based" clear turns yellow as it ages, even if it claims non-yellowing formula.

    Some formulas dry fast, but don't actually get hard for months (even a month latter the "finger nail test" lets you leave a mark).

    After a few months of drying, it can be buffed to a medium shine.

    Because it's never get's very hard, ball trails and scratches quickly form.

    Vapors are very toxic.

    Do not use Oil Based Poly on a playfield!

    #6 8 years ago
    Quoted from Pinfactory2000:

    Good feedback. thanks
    Minwax Polycrylic seems to be a water based poly...Is that different than what you are talking about?

    Water based poly is even worse than oil poly.

    Water based totally knocks down the playfield colors.

    Still turns yellow, but it stays softer and less glossy.

    It's super thin, so it takes 10 coats to equal the protection of a single coat of oil.

    Do not use Water Based Poly on a playfield!

    WaterBasedPoly.jpgWaterBasedPoly.jpg

    #8 8 years ago
    Quoted from dung:

    Poly can be put on in a small apartment with a brush.

    Eeeesh, with a brush????

    Still, it turns yellow, is soft, can't be fully polished out, and dulls the colors beneath it.

    Quoted from dung:

    Auto clear requires a booth, respirator, gun, and compressor. Huge difference in startup cost.

    Used Speedair compressor from Craigslist $100
    HF HVLP gun $10
    HF air hose $15
    Iso rated Respirator $28
    Tyvek suit $12
    100 nitrite gloves $7
    Roll of plastic to contain overspray or make booth $8

    #12 8 years ago
    Quoted from rosh:

    Certainly auto clear is the better way to go, but based on what I know, that is more complicated and tricky to do for an amateur. By all accounts,

    Auto clear, aka 2PAC, is actually WAY easier than any other topcoat:

    1. In a few hours, it is totally cured. In 10 minutes you can apply a second coat and the whole playfield is done. The time you save vs. 10 coats of water based poly is enormous.

    2. All the cupped inserts or playfield dents are simply filled with an eyedropper. The cupped inserts are now reinforced by the 2PAC.

    3. The 2PAC is COMPLETELY CLEAR - there are 1x1" cubes of it at the dealer. Just try to make a 1x1" cube from water poly - it will be solid white.

    4. The 2PAC will not run down the playfield holes or slots when spraying the playfield flat on it's back - water poly runs like a duck's ass.

    5. There is nothing tricky about it, except that you have only 2 hours to empty your gun. Even if you forget and the gun is solid 2PAC, a new gun is only $9. The price of a disposable paint roller.

    6. Once you try 2PAC you will cringe every time you see your old posts defending water poly. No one ever goes back. Ever.

    #13 8 years ago
    Quoted from dung:

    You also need a place to do it which not everyone has.

    If my Triton V10 blew up in my van, and I did not have a place to pull the engine, would I take it apart piece by piece for 25 hours in my driveway?

    Would I then rebuild it in place with leaves falling, dust blowing, and the sprinkle of rain?

    Would I then go online and tell other people that they could rebuild their $5,000 engine in their dusty driveway?

    Of course not.

    I'd either find a friend with a chainfall/cherry picker and pull it; or I would pay a local garage to pull it.

    Just because I can't do it right at my house, does not mean that I should waste time doing it wrong and inferior .

    -

    #15 8 years ago
    Quoted from rosh:

    btw, googling 2PAC, gives very different results then I expected.

    The "thug" who attended the Baltimore School for the Arts, where he studied ballet dancing?

    Word.

    2pac.jpg2pac.jpg

    #16 8 years ago
    Quoted from rosh:

    What are you thoughts on the these newer 2PAC spray cans for those without compressor/sprayers/etc?

    You want clear you can drip from an eyedropper to fill cupped inserts and the valley that surrounds some inserts.

    You still need a compressor to blow out all the holes and slots (@ $6 a can, canned air adds up fast).

    And you need a compressor to power the wet sander (do not electrocute yourself with a 110v sander).

    And @ $20 a can for the clear (that hardens if you don't use it all at once), you are only a few cans away from just buying a used compressor. Like this one for $60: chicago.craigslist.org link

    #18 8 years ago
    Quoted from cody_chunn:

    I've had good results with polys. When I'm resuscitating a beater the type of clear I lay down hardly matters if it eventually tints yellow. I also use...GASP!...a foam brush for application. When I'm refurbing a cheap game, there's absolutely no rational for using superior auto clear.
    IMO

    That does not make any sense.

    Why would you knowingly ruin that game for future generations????

    #21 8 years ago
    Quoted from cody_chunn:

    Because it's not ruined?

    If you put on a coating that is going to turn amber, you have ruined the game.

    #27 8 years ago
    Quoted from solarvalue:

    Also, pre-diamond plate games were coated with poly, no?

    no

    #31 8 years ago
    Quoted from cody_chunn:

    And someone got a nice game that wasn't overly expensive.

    A ruined game.

    Once they learn more about pins, I'm sure they will be delighted, lol.
    -

    You are forever stuck defending the reasons you have ruined those games because the people you sold them to will be pissed.

    -1
    #33 8 years ago

    You are forever stuck defending the reasons you have ruined those games because the people you sold them to will be pissed.

    #34 8 years ago

    Honestly, it's better to just say "Yeah, I boogered some games in the past with crappy repairs" than it is to try and defend crappy repairs.

    #40 8 years ago
    Quoted from cody_chunn:

    That field was ruined when I got it.

    No, that playfield was damaged when you got it.

    Now it's ruined.

    -

    True story:

    There was a new guy in our Mustang club that inherited a baby blue fastback 67 Stang. Original paint, 30K miles, original exhaust, his grandma's car.

    Although there were a few small scratches, and a little spot of rust on one door, we were all impressed by this vehicle.

    Sure enough, one day he drives it onto the field painted cop-stop-red. Fuuuuuuuccccccckkkkkkkk we all gasped.

    Vid: Dude why????
    Mustang Ruiner: You know, it had scratches....and it was starting to rust out.....
    Vid: That's not even a Ford color.
    Mustang Ruiner: I know, I had to choose a color that my buddy could get from his work.
    Vid: You probably just dropped the value of your car about $20,000
    Mustang Ruiner: C'mon. You know I got this thing for free, right?

    You are that guy.

    #42 8 years ago
    Quoted from T7:

    Isn't the Bally/Williams "Diamond Plate" clear coat Varathane - which is a water based polyurethane?

    No.

    It was an adaptation of DuPont's Imron clear used on trucks.

    #45 8 years ago
    Quoted from T7:

    If pinball machines are collectibles like Ford Mustangs - what does that mean for people modding games, replacing screen printed art with decals, moving to LEDs, etc.

    Just like with cars, REVERSIBLE mods are begrudgingly accepted.

    But there is a special place in hell for people who take 30+ year old cars and cut holes in hoods for giant scoops, cut holes doors for speakers, bolt crazy fins on the trunks, repaint them at home with strange colors , and cut big display stereo heads into the dash.

    #46 8 years ago
    Quoted from T7:

    There were many, many posts for years on RGP claiming that DiamondPlate was Varathane. So you're saying that everybody was wrong for all those years? I don't know, I'm just saying that's what the consensus was for like 15 years.

    Was-not-Varathane.

    #47 8 years ago
    Quoted from swampfire:

    So Vid, what's the best way to seal new paint without going the full 2PAC route? Is it all or nothing? Asking for a friend.

    If you need to protect a playfield repaint on a game and it's not worth $20 of 2PAC, then just use a patch of Mylar.

    Wax over the section that is to receive the Mylar, so the Mylar can be easily removed latter.

    This repair is REVERSIBLE, so latter generations can remove the Mylar and do a proper restore.

    You can see TNT Amusements do these kind of repairs in their videos all the time.

    Another good tip is to run the Mylar all the way to another feature on the playfield. Make the seam run along a color change, or under a plastic. Makes it hard to see the seam once the glass is installed.

    11
    #49 8 years ago

    24christ-span-articleLarge-v3.jpg24christ-span-articleLarge-v3.jpg

    #51 8 years ago
    Quoted from angus:

    Hey Vid - can you tell us what you think about the crystal clear epoxy? http://eastcoastresin.com/

    I've never seen that brand (West Systems is all they sell around my town), but Epoxy coatings usually need a 180 grit sanded surface to have enough tooth to stay stuck to wood.

    It it also tough to get clear Epoxy to be truly UV stable, so even the "non yellowing" stuff turns yellow after a while.

    #53 8 years ago
    Quoted from angus:

    Is it normally too brittle?

    Epoxy can be formulated to be less brittle, it just depends on it's intended use.

    #56 8 years ago

    At least 3 different companies made playfields for Stern/Bally/Williams so it can vary.

    If it dissolves with Alcohol it could be Shellac (test under the apron)

    #57 8 years ago
    Quoted from swampfire:

    That's what I'm interested in! I'd love to use something like that on a CPR Bally playfield, so it looks and plays more like the original. The auto clear just doesn't look quite right.

    You can knock the gloss down to any level you want.

    On EMs that have to look perfect, but not mirror, Meguiar's Swirl Remover 2.0 will knock the mirror back to nice EM sheen.

    Traditionalists can also use Rottenstone to knock the gloss back.

    The best part is that future owners who want a mirror finish can simply buff the finish back to mirror - takes about 15 minutes.

    1 month later
    #63 8 years ago
    Quoted from Electrocute:

    Clearcoating seems like something you don't want to do if you have no experience.

    Take a piece of white plywood.

    Paint "garage sale" on it.

    Lay it flat on it's back and shoot it.

    Wet sand any dust that falls into the finish.

    Buff to a mirror shine.

    -

    You can easily make a trial run (and have the nicest garage sale sign ever).

    Once you see how easy it is, there will be no stopping you.

    Quoted from Electrocute:

    I'm having one professionally done at a cost.

    Excellent.

    Never accept a "free" clearcoat - there is a scam in there somewhere.

    #66 8 years ago
    Quoted from Electrocute:

    You've got to have a clean dust free atmosphere and you got to protect yourself. I've studied this and am not ready to do this yet.

    Here are the safety instructions, and the proper plastic to tape off a "booth" in your garage :

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/16#post-1670975

    #68 8 years ago
    Quoted from Electrocute:

    Uncut

    image_(resized).jpg

    Very nice!

    Don't ever cut that test panel, that is an important historical piece.

    1 week later
    #72 8 years ago
    Quoted from tp:

    WaterBasedPoly.jpg

    What if you wanna just use it to protect the shooter lane?

    I'd cautiously suggest oil based poly.

    #75 8 years ago
    Quoted from vcloverjr:

    Vid, would you send your playfield to a reputable body shop?

    Every auto parts store has a bulletin board with plenty of backyard car painters who could shoot a layer of clear on a playfield for cheap.

    #78 8 years ago
    Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

    So is it possible to shoot an auto clear over an oil poly playfield if it is sanded,

    Are you saying that somebody has put oil poly over the playfield already?

    #80 8 years ago
    Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

    Yes, appears to be a couple coats.

    Sorry to say, it's most likely ruined.

    The oil poly will keep getting more amber in color.

    If they did not sand the playfield to give it enough "tooth", it will start lifting over time.

    I've tried a few times to get that stuff off a playfield, never successfully.

    #86 8 years ago
    Quoted from Classic_Stern:

    Today they have throw away air masks so that you don't accidently reuse them. They are also sealed. This is how the body shops do it. About 50 dollars for a mask in a sealed bag.

    You can get reusable 3M iso rated masks for $28.

    Toss 'em after 1 hour or 40 hours, or use them for lead paint cab sanding after you are done with the iso.

    1 week later
    #88 8 years ago

    Don't do clear in an attached garage, ever.

    Just get a $79 greenhouse from HF and spray away.

    You don't need a vac wall (although that is a nice luxury), any overspray will be cured in 20 minutes.

    If you wanted to get fancy, put a furnace filter over a box fan and put it in the greenhouse wall.

    #90 8 years ago

    Don't let portability hold you back on an air compressor purchase.

    It's easier to just run a longer air hose, than to wheel one of those things around. The farther I am away from an air compressor, the more I like it.

    Unlike how a longer electrical extension cord lowers your voltage (a bad thing), a longer air hose actually stores a little more air for you.

    -

    Air tools and compressor specs are a bunch of lies and exaggerations.

    Tools always underestimate the amount of air they use, and compressors always exaggerate the amount of air they put out.

    -

    A HVLP (High Volume Low Pressure) gun's name tells you it needs more Volume, than Pressure.

    If you run out of air, you have to wait for the tank to recharge....

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