(Topic ID: 143963)

Poly vs. auto clear...


By Pinfactory2000

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 93 posts
  • 34 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by Langless28
  • Topic is favorited by 8 Pinsiders

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    There are 93 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 3 years ago
    Quoted from angus:

    Hey Vid - can you tell us what you think about the crystal clear epoxy? http://eastcoastresin.com/

    I've never seen that brand (West Systems is all they sell around my town), but Epoxy coatings usually need a 180 grit sanded surface to have enough tooth to stay stuck to wood.

    It it also tough to get clear Epoxy to be truly UV stable, so even the "non yellowing" stuff turns yellow after a while.

    #52 3 years ago

    I would think the mixing could be trouble too if you get air bubbles in it, they aren't likely to come out. Is it normally too brittle? Some seem to become soft when heated too. That might be an issue in a game. Thanks for the input.

    #53 3 years ago
    Quoted from angus:

    Is it normally too brittle?

    Epoxy can be formulated to be less brittle, it just depends on it's intended use.

    #54 3 years ago

    Can anyone hazard a guess about what was used to coat playfields before diamond plate? What was Bally's "tuff-coat" and the "varnish" used on other old SS games?

    #55 3 years ago
    Quoted from solarvalue:

    Can anyone hazard a guess about what was used to coat playfields before diamond plate? What was Bally's "tuff-coat" and the "varnish" used on other old SS games?

    That's what I'm interested in! I'd love to use something like that on a CPR Bally playfield, so it looks and plays more like the original. The auto clear just doesn't look quite right. It's beautiful, but feels a bit like airbrushing the Mona Lisa.

    #56 3 years ago

    At least 3 different companies made playfields for Stern/Bally/Williams so it can vary.

    If it dissolves with Alcohol it could be Shellac (test under the apron)

    #57 3 years ago
    Quoted from swampfire:

    That's what I'm interested in! I'd love to use something like that on a CPR Bally playfield, so it looks and plays more like the original. The auto clear just doesn't look quite right.

    You can knock the gloss down to any level you want.

    On EMs that have to look perfect, but not mirror, Meguiar's Swirl Remover 2.0 will knock the mirror back to nice EM sheen.

    Traditionalists can also use Rottenstone to knock the gloss back.

    The best part is that future owners who want a mirror finish can simply buff the finish back to mirror - takes about 15 minutes.

    #58 3 years ago

    I dont know of any epoxy or polyester resins that are truly UV resistant. You would typically use a gel coat as a top coat to protect from UV. I wouldn't recommend epoxy as a clear. Its tough enough but like poly it will yellow.
    Btw, west system epoxy is the shiznit.

    #59 3 years ago
    Quoted from T7:

    There were many, many posts for years on RGP claiming that DiamondPlate was Varathane. So you're saying that everybody was wrong for all those years? I don't know, I'm just saying that's what the consensus was for like 15 years.

    Yes they were wrong. Diamondplate was based on Imron.
    More info here: http://www.flippers.be/pinball_playfields.html , got confirmation by interviewing someone who worked at Sun Process..

    #60 3 years ago
    Quoted from aeneas:

    Yes they were wrong. Diamondplate was based on Imron.
    More info here: http://www.flippers.be/pinball_playfields.html , got confirmation by interviewing someone who worked at Sun Process..

    Thanks aeneas. Very informative link have added to my favorites.

    #61 3 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    24christ-span-articleLarge-v3.jpg

    LMFAO!

    1 month later
    #62 3 years ago

    Clearcoating seems like something you don't want to do if you have no experience. I'm having one professionally done at a cost. I'm going to look at it tomorrow and drop off the old populated playfield. He's also going to do the swap. If I were to experiment, I would use a playfield with nothing going for it and use auto clearcoat. I would like to do it one day but will need to buy some equipment and set up a booth.

    #63 3 years ago
    Quoted from Electrocute:

    Clearcoating seems like something you don't want to do if you have no experience.

    Take a piece of white plywood.

    Paint "garage sale" on it.

    Lay it flat on it's back and shoot it.

    Wet sand any dust that falls into the finish.

    Buff to a mirror shine.

    -

    You can easily make a trial run (and have the nicest garage sale sign ever).

    Once you see how easy it is, there will be no stopping you.

    Quoted from Electrocute:

    I'm having one professionally done at a cost.

    Excellent.

    Never accept a "free" clearcoat - there is a scam in there somewhere.

    #64 3 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Water based poly is even worse than oil poly.
    Water based totally knocks down the playfield colors.
    Still turns yellow, but it stays softer and less glossy.
    It's super thin, so it takes 10 coats to equal the protection of a single coat of oil.
    Do not use Water Based Poly on a playfield!

    WaterBasedPoly.jpg

    LOL thats my photo

    #65 3 years ago

    I'm not going to screw up on a playfield I may never find again. It's not that simple as painting a piece of plywood with "garage sale" written in crayon. You've got to have a clean dust free atmosphere and you got to protect yourself. I've studied this and am not ready to do this yet.

    #66 3 years ago
    Quoted from Electrocute:

    You've got to have a clean dust free atmosphere and you got to protect yourself. I've studied this and am not ready to do this yet.

    Here are the safety instructions, and the proper plastic to tape off a "booth" in your garage :

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/16#post-1670975

    #67 3 years ago

    Uncut

    image_(resized).jpg

    #68 3 years ago
    Quoted from Electrocute:

    Uncut

    image_(resized).jpg

    Very nice!

    Don't ever cut that test panel, that is an important historical piece.

    #69 3 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Auto clear, aka 2PAC, is actually WAY easier than any other topcoat:
    1. In a few hours, it is totally cured. In 10 minutes you can apply a second coat and the whole playfield is done. The time you save vs. 10 coats of water based poly is enormous.
    2. All the cupped inserts or playfield dents are simply filled with an eyedropper. The cupped inserts are now reinforced by the 2PAC.
    3. The 2PAC is COMPLETELY CLEAR - there are 1x1" cubes of it at the dealer. Just try to make a 1x1" cube from water poly - it will be solid white.
    4. The 2PAC will not run down the playfield holes or slots when spraying the playfield flat on it's back - water poly runs like a duck's ass.
    5. There is nothing tricky about it, except that you have only 2 hours to empty your gun. Even if you forget and the gun is solid 2PAC, a new gun is only $9. The price of a disposable paint roller.
    6. Once you try 2PAC you will cringe every time you see your old posts defending water poly. No one ever goes back. Ever.

    I tell everyone how easy it is and once they try it they will never go back. It is just really easy to do and get great results.

    1 week later
    #70 3 years ago

    My games are for sale if you'd prefer to "save" them to refurbish "properly". Otherwise they belong to me and I will do with them as I please...

    Actually all those EM games were ruined before they left the factory when they put lacquer on them. They should've shipped them directly to the dumpster.

    #71 3 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Water based poly is even worse than oil poly.
    Water based totally knocks down the playfield colors.
    Still turns yellow, but it stays softer and less glossy.
    It's super thin, so it takes 10 coats to equal the protection of a single coat of oil.
    Do not use Water Based Poly on a playfield!

    WaterBasedPoly.jpg</blockquote
    What if you wanna just use it to protect the shooter lane?

    #72 3 years ago
    Quoted from tp:

    WaterBasedPoly.jpg

    What if you wanna just use it to protect the shooter lane?

    I'd cautiously suggest oil based poly.

    #73 3 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Pretender #1: Polyurethane
    Poly is what people think of when they think "clear protective finish".
    This "oil based" clear turns yellow as it ages, even if it claims non-yellowing formula.
    Some formulas dry fast, but don't actually get hard for months (even a month latter the "finger nail test" lets you leave a mark).
    After a few months of drying, it can be buffed to a medium shine.
    Because it's never get's very hard, ball trails and scratches quickly form.
    Vapors are very toxic.
    Do not use Oil Based Poly on a playfield!

    Vid, would you send your playfield to a reputable body shop? There is a local body shop that I have had my cars repaired that do most of the bmw/mercedes because of their quality. The manager has mentioned that he would spray one of my PF when he is spraying a car. He mentioned $75 a few years ago, but was wondering if this wouldn't be a good option B for those that want auto-clear, without investing in any equipment.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    #74 3 years ago

    A good learning opportunity here. I won't buy a machine without asking a lot of questions about the clear coat.

    #75 3 years ago
    Quoted from vcloverjr:

    Vid, would you send your playfield to a reputable body shop?

    Every auto parts store has a bulletin board with plenty of backyard car painters who could shoot a layer of clear on a playfield for cheap.

    #76 3 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    But there is a special place in hell for people who take 30+ year old cars and cut holes in hoods for giant scoops, cut holes doors for speakers, bolt crazy fins on the trunks, repaint them at home with strange colors , and cut big display stereo heads into the dash.

    Preach it, brother!

    Quoted from Classic_Stern:

    I tell everyone how easy it is and once they try it they will never go back. It is just really easy to do and get great results.

    People think it's a bigger deal than it is. I spray cabinet doors with paint or poly and it's very simple and easy.

    Quoted from vid1900:

    Every auto parts store has a bulletin board with plenty of backyard car painters who could shoot a layer of clear on a playfield for cheap.

    I was just getting ready to ask this. Thanks for fighting the good fight, Vid.

    #77 3 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Every auto parts store has a bulletin board with plenty of backyard car painters who could shoot a layer of clear on a playfield for cheap.

    Quoted from vid1900:

    I'd cautiously suggest oil based poly.

    So is it possible to shoot an auto clear over an oil poly playfield if it is sanded, or what else can be done to make this possible?

    #78 3 years ago
    Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

    So is it possible to shoot an auto clear over an oil poly playfield if it is sanded,

    Are you saying that somebody has put oil poly over the playfield already?

    #79 3 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Are you saying that somebody has put oil poly over the playfield already?

    Yes, appears to be a couple coats.

    #80 3 years ago
    Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

    Yes, appears to be a couple coats.

    Sorry to say, it's most likely ruined.

    The oil poly will keep getting more amber in color.

    If they did not sand the playfield to give it enough "tooth", it will start lifting over time.

    I've tried a few times to get that stuff off a playfield, never successfully.

    #81 3 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Sorry to say, it's most likely ruined.

    Had a feeling you would say that. Well, off to look for another Playfield down the road.

    Thanks,

    Ken

    #82 3 years ago

    Sooo. Where are we on the 2 part in can? I want to try a clearcoat. If it works out then I can look at more involved equipment.

    #83 3 years ago

    there is a reason i've been restoring fields for 10 years. Because it's a PIA and not easy to do. Better to have someone that knows what they are doing do it. Clearcoat is some dangerous shit, if you do not know what you are doing. It likes to stick to anything wet. Lung walls, eyeballs, shit like that. When I first started restoring. I thought I could get away with just using paint respirators. NOT. Passed out in the shower after about 3 months of clearcoating.

    For those that want to do their own touchups. I do clearcoating and leveling for flat $350. But you must scuff your entire field before touching up with a choreboy type pad, and only use water based acrylics. Anything remotely oil based will make the clear fisheye like crazy.

    As for diamond plate being varathane, i've never heard that. You can tell it's not, because of the cloudiness of B/W inserts. That cloudy effect comes from the shitty technology clearcoat they had available at the time. Clear wasn't really clear. Now it is. Hence why you can see all the jeweling in Stern fields and couldn't in B/W fields.

    #84 3 years ago
    Quoted from Greybeard:

    Sooo. Where are we on the 2 part in can? I want to try a clearcoat. If it works out then I can look at more involved equipment.

    This is what I have used and with happy results. You still need all the safety equipment. The downside is doing things like Vid mentions with filling in the cupped inserts with an eyedropper, not really possible with the stuff in a can.

    #85 3 years ago
    Quoted from Greybeard:

    Sooo. Where are we on the 2 part in can? I want to try a clearcoat. If it works out then I can look at more involved equipment.

    It is fine. Contrary to mis conceptions. Working with Auto clears is SUPER easy. Build a temporary enclosure, buy a gun, compressor and buy the stuff that you mix. Today they have throw away air masks so that you don't accidently reuse them. They are also sealed. This is how the body shops do it. About 50 dollars for a mask in a sealed bag. The spray can's of auto clear are not made for large jobs. Solids are 10-15% as dispensed where as with a HVLP gun you are 80-90%. The cans are for small touch ups. Just too much air from cans. I have done probably 50 playfields with auto clear and would never do something different.

    #86 3 years ago
    Quoted from Classic_Stern:

    Today they have throw away air masks so that you don't accidently reuse them. They are also sealed. This is how the body shops do it. About 50 dollars for a mask in a sealed bag.

    You can get reusable 3M iso rated masks for $28.

    Toss 'em after 1 hour or 40 hours, or use them for lead paint cab sanding after you are done with the iso.

    #87 3 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    there is a reason i've been restoring fields for 10 years. Because it's a PIA and not easy to do. Better to have someone that knows what they are doing do it. Clearcoat is some dangerous shit, if you do not know what you are doing. It likes to stick to anything wet. Lung walls, eyeballs, shit like that. When I first started restoring. I thought I could get away with just using paint respirators. NOT. Passed out in the shower after about 3 months of clearcoating.
    For those that want to do their own touchups. I do clearcoating and leveling for flat $350. But you must scuff your entire field before touching up with a choreboy type pad, and only use water based acrylics. Anything remotely oil based will make the clear fisheye like crazy.
    As for diamond plate being varathane, i've never heard that. You can tell it's not, because of the cloudiness of B/W inserts. That cloudy effect comes from the shitty technology clearcoat they had available at the time. Clear wasn't really clear. Now it is. Hence why you can see all the jeweling in Stern fields and couldn't in B/W fields.

    This is the primary reason why I haven't tried clearing myself. I don't feel safe enough laying down clear in my attached garage. I would try it in a completely separate building but I would want a full setup: clean air mask and a vacuum wall to catch the particulates. I would hate to use this stuff in a residential area and harm my family or my neighbors.

    #88 3 years ago

    Don't do clear in an attached garage, ever.

    Just get a $79 greenhouse from HF and spray away.

    You don't need a vac wall (although that is a nice luxury), any overspray will be cured in 20 minutes.

    If you wanted to get fancy, put a furnace filter over a box fan and put it in the greenhouse wall.

    #89 3 years ago

    Hey Vid,

    I've gone through this thread and the playfield thread and see that the compressor talks sometimes get a bit sidetracked. I need a compressor for other jobs at my new house, but space is at an absolute premium. When looking at different models, I also remembered that a compressor could allow for the 2PAC applications you've detailed. Again though, space. Also if I decide to move forward with a compressor that could be suitable for 2PAC clear jobs, it needs to be portable enough to get to the greenhouse left in the backyard by the previous owners.

    You once said that the cheap HF air gun requires 6 CFM @ 47psi. I'm wondering about the outcome if you bend those rules. Enter the example compressor...

    http://www.harborfreight.com/21-gal-25-hp-125-psi-cast-iron-vertical-air-compressor-61454.html

    This is nice because...
    A) it doesn't cost $1000 and meets the rest of the needs I have.
    B) it can be wheeled up my basement's bulkhead, and out to the greenhouse
    C) it (almost) meets your CFM/PSI requirement and has the Cast Iron construction you favor.

    So if I went ahead with this, would it be able to one day clear a playfield if I ever picked up a project that needed it? I'm guessing from the 6CFM, 47psi requirement, the pressure is more critical of the two??? If so, it looks like the above link's compressor would only be providing about 5.65 CFM, not 6.0. Does this just result in a longer application process, or does anything else change (i.e. particle velocity, air gun performance) that makes this a no-go?

    Larger air compressors lack the portability (and I don't have a garage ) so I'm seeing if this is a possibility. Thanks!

    #90 3 years ago

    Don't let portability hold you back on an air compressor purchase.

    It's easier to just run a longer air hose, than to wheel one of those things around. The farther I am away from an air compressor, the more I like it.

    Unlike how a longer electrical extension cord lowers your voltage (a bad thing), a longer air hose actually stores a little more air for you.

    -

    Air tools and compressor specs are a bunch of lies and exaggerations.

    Tools always underestimate the amount of air they use, and compressors always exaggerate the amount of air they put out.

    -

    A HVLP (High Volume Low Pressure) gun's name tells you it needs more Volume, than Pressure.

    If you run out of air, you have to wait for the tank to recharge....

    #91 3 years ago
    Quoted from metahugh:

    This is the primary reason why I haven't tried clearing myself. I don't feel safe enough laying down clear in my attached garage. I would try it in a completely separate building but I would want a full setup: clean air mask and a vacuum wall to catch the particulates. I would hate to use this stuff in a residential area and harm my family or my neighbors.

    You have to set up a temporary enclosure and you use soft blowing fans to ventilate and run to the outside. Not a problem.

    2 months later
    #92 3 years ago

    finitec 3000! better than varathan.

    #93 3 years ago

    I'm curious as to what Williams "plasti-kote" was. They used in the mid 60's.

    An acrylic lacquer?

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