(Topic ID: 251816)

Poll : Is a "slide save" (moving the feet) cheating the game?

By razorsedge

4 years ago


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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by punkin
  • Topic is favorited by 8 Pinsiders

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    Topic poll

    “Poll : Is a "slide save" (moving the feet) cheating the game?”

    • Yes, slide saving is cheating the game. 224 votes
      35%
    • No, slide saving is not cheating the game. 425 votes
      65%

    (649 votes)

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    There are 888 posts in this topic. You are on page 8 of 18.
    #351 4 years ago
    Quoted from InfiniteLives:

    Are The same players telling you slide saving is cheating... are they the same players complaining about lock stealing ? Sounds like you need to toughen up your player base lol

    It only seems to be an issue when some of the city-siders and high flying interstaters turn up Lol

    Yes those complaining about lock stealing and wanting "split games" are the same players generally as those approving of (or wanting to do) slide saves (since the IFPA rules supposedly say these are both the way to go?) .... sounds now like just another grey area.

    I'm merely looking for the way forward that keeps the majority happy, and entices more new novice players to join in. There are too many whom have previously turned away, based on stuff like "too serious and competetive for me". ...

    Starting the thread turns out has been fairly helpful, even if so many just get their knickers in a twist! Lol .... it's okay!, it's nothing personal!

    #352 4 years ago
    Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

    If the designers of pinball machines wanted to negate the slide save, they would engineer a solution. But since they haven't, by your own argument, it isn't cheating and within the spirit of the game.

    Actually they did!!!
    Most EM and early SS pins had a SLAM tilt switch on the backside of the playfield for just that reason. To keep people from sliding the game to save a ball. If you slid the game it was game over! Why??? Because slide saves were not intended to be part of how the game was played. This is why I will always say it should be illegal and always believed it was. It’s only through the tilt warnings and de bounce that people can now get away with sliding the game and have a good chance of not tilting.
    To clarify I'm refereeing to a slide save as moving the feet more then an inch or two from original position not nudging from side to side.
    F313342D-E576-486D-93AA-22A3D92790FC (resized).jpegF313342D-E576-486D-93AA-22A3D92790FC (resized).jpeg

    #353 4 years ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    Actually they did!!!
    Most EM and early SS pins had a SLAM tilt switch on the backside of the playfield for just that reason. To keep people from sliding the game to save a ball. If you slid the game you It was game over! Why??? Because the games were not intended for slide saves to be part of how the game was played. This is why I will always say it should be illegal and always believed it was. It’s only through the tilt warnings and de bounce that people can now get away with sliding the game and have a good chance of not tilting.[quoted image]

    So to follow the logic here - you're indicating that early designers HAD thought of this. Perfect. And they engineered a solution for it. PERFECT! ... then they removed it from subsequent designs.

    So doesn't this indicate that since they knew players would attempt a 'slide save' or similar motion, and they had engineered a solution to it, and further that they specifically (some might use the term "intentionally") chose *not* to implement it - that this proves that they were OK with this type of play? Or at least apathetic to it?

    I'm willing to bet that this solution started to limit earnings, and so it was removed.

    #354 4 years ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    Actually they did!!!
    Most EM and early SS pins had a SLAM tilt switch on the backside of the playfield for just that reason. To keep people from sliding the game to save a ball. If you slid the game it was game over! Why??? Because slide saves were not intended to be part of how the game was played. This is why I will always say it should be illegal and always believed it was. It’s only through the tilt warnings and de bounce that people can now get away with sliding the game and have a good chance of not tilting.

    So if it was engineered in a way to stop slide saving, then so be it. That's how I'll play it, but if it wasn't then I'll be more than happy to slide save it if necessary.

    The game is the judge!

    #355 4 years ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    Actually they did!!!
    Most EM and early SS pins had a SLAM tilt switch on the backside of the playfield for just that reason. To keep people from sliding the game to save a ball. If you slid the game it was game over! Why??? Because slide saves were not intended to be part of how the game was played. This is why I will always say it should be illegal and always believed it was. It’s only through the tilt warnings and de bounce that people can now get away with sliding the game and have a good chance of not tilting.
    To clarify I'm refereeing to a slide save as moving the feet more then an inch or two from original position not nudging from side to side.
    [quoted image]

    Thank you for highlighting this!

    I knew there was a piece missing from the puzzle!

    #356 4 years ago
    Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

    So to follow the logic here - you're indicating that early designers HAD thought of this. Perfect. And they engineered a solution for it. PERFECT! ... then they removed it from subsequent designs.
    So doesn't this indicate that since they knew players would attempt a 'slide save' or similar motion, and they had engineered a solution to it, and further that they specifically (some might use the term "intentionally") chose *not* to implement it - that this proves that they were OK with this type of play? Or at least apathetic to it?
    I'm willing to bet that this solution started to limit earnings, and so it was removed.

    I'm willing to bet that the removal of the slam tilts were just another part of cost cutting. I'm pretty sure the manufacturers never had a board meeting with people sitting around talking about how the effect of removing a tilt switch would alow people to start slide saving.

    #357 4 years ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    I'm willing to bet that the removal of the slam tilts were just another part of cost cutting. I'm pretty sure the manufacturers never had a board meeting with people sitting around talking about how the effect of removing a tilt switch would alow people to start slide saving.

    Gold!

    #358 4 years ago
    Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

    So if it was engineered in a way to stop slide saving, then so be it. That's how I'll play it, but if it wasn't then I'll be more than happy to slide save it if necessary.
    The game is the judge!

    Hey, since it's considered legal and possible to do now. I'm right there with ya. I'm not saying I won't do it. I'm saying I will always feel like I'm cheating when doing it.

    #359 4 years ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    Actually they did!!!
    Most EM and early SS pins had a SLAM tilt switch on the backside of the playfield for just that reason. To keep people from sliding the game to save a ball. If you slid the game it was game over! Why??? Because slide saves were not intended to be part of how the game was played. This is why I will always say it should be illegal and always believed it was. It’s only through the tilt warnings and de bounce that people can now get away with sliding the game and have a good chance of not tilting.
    To clarify I'm refereeing to a slide save as moving the feet more then an inch or two from original position not nudging from side to side.
    [quoted image]

    This was not intended to stop slide saves. Per IPDB.org:

    Slam Tilt —
    Tilting the game so violently that it immediately stops all games in progress and reboots (EMs only go into game-over mode).
    Easily achieved by kicking the coin box or lifting the machine past horizontal. This type of behavior will also get you thrown out of an arcade and is considered very bad manners.

    This is not the same as a slide save.

    #360 4 years ago
    Quoted from razorsedge:

    Except it will get you a DNQ. Unless it is unsanctioned of course.

    This is completely incorrect. You can make whatever rules you want and it will still be recognized by the IFPA. Just needs to be open to anyone and scheduled 30 days in advance.

    #361 4 years ago
    Quoted from kguenther6:

    This was not intended to stop slide saves. Per IPDB.org:
    Slam Tilt —
    Tilting the game so violently that it immediately stops all games in progress and reboots (EMs only go into game-over mode).
    Easily achieved by kicking the coin box or lifting the machine past horizontal. This type of behavior will also get you thrown out of an arcade and is considered very bad manners.
    This is not the same as a slide save.

    I believe arcademojo was indicating this is a *second* tilt switch

    #362 4 years ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    I'm willing to bet that the removal of the slam tilts were just another part of cost cutting. I'm pretty sure the manufacturers never had a board meeting with people sitting around talking about how the effect of removing a tilt switch would alow people to start slide saving.

    Wait, what, really?

    You don't think a long-time company like WMS or Bally scrutinized the earnings of each game, with each change they made? I agree with you they didn't care whether people were playing a game a certain way - but they DID care about earnings. A LOT. And it's been well documented that the games weren't made with intent to last 20, 30 years - so they couldn't have cared about "damage to the game".

    So any cost cutting would have been done after looking at the P/L for the game. Did the extra slam tilt switch make any difference?

    If yes, it might have: a) increased sales because it forced players to pay for another game where before they may have gotten away with a slide save or other aggressive move

    b) decreased sales because players were getting more tilts than usual, which isn't much fun, and they stopped playing

    c) made no impact, and so was cut from the BOM because it didn't make a difference

    if b) or c), the decision was made thoughtfully, but with apathy to the way players are actually handling the game. This would imply they did not care that much if people were making these slide save moves. And this therefore remains an academic discussion circling around local/tournament rules. and has been established, the internationally recognized body upon which a lot of tournament rules are based doesn't call it 'cheating'.

    #363 4 years ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    This is completely incorrect. You can make whatever rules you want and it will still be recognized by the IFPA. Just needs to be open to anyone and scheduled 30 days in advance.

    Thank you. Someone else just pointed that out too. I may have to question information conveyed to me, taught, by "more experienced TDs".

    Plenty of learning to come it seems.

    #364 4 years ago
    Quoted from kguenther6:

    This was not intended to stop slide saves. Per IPDB.org:
    Slam Tilt —
    Tilting the game so violently that it immediately stops all games in progress and reboots (EMs only go into game-over mode).
    Easily achieved by kicking the coin box or lifting the machine past horizontal. This type of behavior will also get you thrown out of an arcade and is considered very bad manners.
    This is not the same as a slide save.

    Yes, only the EM's and a few SS would be game over. The others would tilt.
    There were three types of slam tilts.
    1: slam tilt on coin door. "Easily achieved by kicking the coin box "
    2: ball roll slam tilt on front side of cab. "lifting the machine past horizontal"
    3: lateral slam tilt on the bottom side of playfield. Was activated by shoving the game one side or the other. Same as a slide save that moves the game more then an inch or two.
    The IPDB only references to two of the three.

    "Tilting the game so violently that it immediately stops all games in progress and reboots "
    And how do you tilt? By moving a game. And how do you do a slide save? By shoving the game to one side or the other or sometimes side to side.
    "This type of behavior will also get you thrown out of an arcade and is considered very bad manners."
    Correct. Any of the arcades I played at would have kicked you out for moving a game like in that Congo video no matter how much you tried to claim it was a slide save.

    #365 4 years ago
    Quoted from razorsedge:

    [quoted image]
    Lol

    I'll buy that for a dollar!

    #366 4 years ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    This is completely incorrect. You can make whatever rules you want and it will still be recognized by the IFPA. Just needs to be open to anyone and scheduled 30 days in advance.

    I do have a similar question for you. I see people hitting the sides of a pin when the ball is bouncing around the top of the outlanes.
    Is this legal to slap the side of a game during a tournament or league play?

    #367 4 years ago

    Slam tilts do nothing to stop slides, never have. Not even the ones under the playfield. You folks are really reaching hard for anything to lend validity to your argument.

    #368 4 years ago
    Quoted from fumbleflippers:

    Slam tilts do nothing to stop slides, never have. Not even the ones under the playfield. You folks are really reaching hard for anything to lend validity to your argument.

    Sort of correct. The other two Slam tilts have nothing to do with a slide save. And you won't find any document using the the words "slide save" But its exact function is to stop the game from being trusted from one side or the other when the ball is in play. Which is what? The same thing you are doing with a slide save.

    #369 4 years ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    I do have a similar question for you. I see people hitting the sides of a pin when the ball is bouncing around the top of the outlanes.
    Is this legal to slap the side of a game during a tournament or league play?

    Tilt bob is the judge, jury, and executioner at every event I’ve ever ran, or participated in. Once the ball drains though, if you rage tilt, kick the game, punch the game, etc. that can get you ejected. Especially if I’m the TD.

    #370 4 years ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    I do have a similar question for you. I see people hitting the sides of a pin when the ball is bouncing around the top of the outlanes.
    Is this legal to slap the side of a game during a tournament or league play?

    You can always ask me at leagues.....you know, since I'm the TD

    Yes, it's 100% legal. I do it on Guardians when it's coming down the right side. If you give it a slap at the right time, the ball comes off the guide and you can catch it on your right flipper. If you don't get it off the guide with a well timed slap, it normally hits the top of the sling and goes out of control.

    I would do it on BM66 too, but I have the tilt set too tight to get away with it on that game. So you're eating the top of the sling on both sides.

    #371 4 years ago

    I had to take another peek in here to see where all of these posts were taking this thing. It's going to the same place it was before....nowhere. I'm not sure what I find more suprising, that the OP is still trying to keep this thread alive, or that rational people are still trying to have a logical discussion about it.

    #372 4 years ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    Sort of correct. The other two Slam tilts have nothing to do with a slide save. And you won't find any document using the the words "slide save" But its exact function is to stop the game from being trusted from one side or the other. Which is what? The same thing you are doing with a slide save.

    Slam tilts are for violent actions. A slide save can be violent or gentle. Just like a nudge can be violent or gentle.

    #373 4 years ago
    Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

    You know, you can always ask me at leagues.
    Yes, it's 100% legal. I do it on Guardians when it's coming down the right side. If you give it a slap at the right time, the ball comes off the guide and you can catch it on your right flipper. If you don't get it off the guide with a well timed slap, it normally hits the top of the sling and goes out of control.
    I would do it on BM66 too, but I have the tilt set too tight to get away with it on that game. So you're eating the top of the sling on both sides.

    I know, but it's more fun listing things here and watching people get bent out of shape because some of us think some things should be illegal or not.
    Now if your done bugging me. I need to get back to practicing my slide save for next seasons league.

    #374 4 years ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    I know, but it's more fun listing things here and watching people get bent out of shape because some of us think some things should be illegal or not.
    Now if your done bugging me. I need to get back to practicing my slide save for next seasons league.

    LOL

    #375 4 years ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    I know, but it's more fun listing things here and watching people get bent out of shape because some of us think some things should be illegal or not.
    Now if your done bugging me. I need to get back to practicing my slide save for next seasons league.

    Remember to slide the game in the opposite direction you want the ball to go. Picture the game moving underneath the ball. The ball doesn’t move. The game does. Good luck!

    -1
    #376 4 years ago

    I think that, in general, these games are far too expensive, and touchy, to be slammed around. I randomly have screws falling out of my playfields and into the cabinet for seemingly no reason at all.

    Common courtesy on a home game should be a gentle nudge at most. Common courtesy anywhere shouldn't be much more than that. It's a little low class to beat up any machine no matter where it is in my opinion. Someone is paying for that game and it's maintenance to make a living. You can have an amazing sports car that's built for consistent red line racing...but does that mean you should do it?

    #377 4 years ago
    Quoted from MrBubbles:

    I think that, in general, these games are far too expensive, and touchy, to be slammed around. I randomly have screws falling out of my playfields and into the cabinet for seemingly no reason at all.
    Common courtesy on a home game should be a gentle nudge at most. Common courtesy anywhere shouldn't be much more than that. It's a little low class to beat up any machine no matter where it is in my opinion. Someone is paying for that game and it's maintenance to make a living. You can have an amazing sports car that's built for consistent red line racing...but does that mean you should do it?

    I think everyone here has pretty much agreed it is not OK to beat up a machine or to slam it around. And I think everyone here also agrees that owner's wishes should be followed and if they don't want slide saves done on their machines then it shouldn't be done. I haven't seen anyone state otherwise.

    #378 4 years ago
    Quoted from MrBubbles:

    You can have an amazing sports car that's built for consistent red line racing...but does that mean you should do it?

    Um, yes.

    If not, I'd buy a Prius.

    14
    #379 4 years ago

    'Bro was the nudge gentle enough?'
    'I don't know, you almost got a tilt warning friend'
    'Oh heavens I'm so sorry what a brute I am...I would never try to harsh your mellow'
    'It's OK, it's OK; Embrace me'
    'Hugs always help don't they'
    'I love pinball friends'

    Some of you people need your coin slot pissed in.

    #380 4 years ago

    Pretty sure O-din needs to start a different thread....
    "is flipping the flippers and nudging "cheating" the game?"
    But, I have seen many a newb refer to nudging a machine as "cheating".
    OP reminds me of them, except when you explain the tilt and why it's OK, they listen.

    #381 4 years ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    "This type of behavior will also get you thrown out of an arcade and is considered very bad manners."

    dont come to vegas and slide save our games.
    we dont want that kind of behavior at the PHOF.

    timarnold (resized).jpgtimarnold (resized).jpg
    #382 4 years ago
    Quoted from greenhornet:

    Don't come to Vegas and slide save our games.
    We dont want that kind of behavior at the PHOF.

    Darn! If I visited and did that I thought you might just let me slide.

    #383 4 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    'Bro was the nudge gentle enough?'
    'I don't know, you almost got a tilt warning friend'
    'Oh heavens I'm so sorry what a brute I am...I would never try to harsh your mellow'
    'It's OK, it's OK; Embrace me'
    'Hugs always help don't they'
    'I love pinball friends'
    Some of you people need your coin slot pissed in.

    LOL you had me until "harsh your mellow"

    #384 4 years ago
    Quoted from DNO:

    Pretty sure O-din needs to start a different thread....
    "is flipping the flippers and nudging "cheating" the game?"
    But, I have seen many a newb refer to nudging a machine as "cheating".
    OP reminds me of them, except when you explain the tilt and why it's OK, they listen.

    OMG What about BAGATELLES!!?!?

    #385 4 years ago

    Well, the cats/dogs in my home set the rules...so I asked them if it was okay to slide save a ball.

    They overwhelmingly said it was a safety violation!
    I asked how is this a safety violation?

    They responded with the following:

    Well, if “you” were rubbing your chin on the legs of the machine or lying directly under it and someone slide the machine, it could cause a bruising or worse, a concussion!

    Okay, I get that. Then what about nudging the machine?
    They said nudging is allowed and actually encouraged!!!

    PS...the cats wanted me to let all of the owners out there that have cats to please remove those toppers! That is a cats throne and NOT a place to place your memorabilia or light up toys!

    #386 4 years ago
    Quoted from LukyDuck:

    PS...the cats wanted me to let all of the owners out there that have cats to please remove those toppers! That is a cats throne and NOT a place to place your memorabilia or light up toys!

    My cat is the topper.

    bad cats (resized).jpgbad cats (resized).jpg
    #387 4 years ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    My cat is the topper.[quoted image]

    That’s one “Bad Cat”!

    #388 4 years ago
    Quoted from greenhornet:

    dont come to vegas and slide save our games.
    we dont want that kind of behavior at the PHOF.

    Funny enough, I actually did get a warning for nudging a pin there (with no danger warning either). Was told 3 pins had caught fire from that. I had someone following me in order to turn off the pins to avoid people being able to play replays. It was so bad, that I had to actually ask to quit being followed and then eventually just left altogether. Thankfully Flipperspiel or Sharpe's tournaments didn't provide the same experience.

    -1
    #389 4 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    'Bro was the nudge gentle enough?'
    'I don't know, you almost got a tilt warning friend'
    'Oh heavens I'm so sorry what a brute I am...I would never try to harsh your mellow'
    'It's OK, it's OK; Embrace me'
    'Hugs always help don't they'
    'I love pinball friends'
    Some of you people need your coin slot pissed in.

    Funny tough guy approach to speaking about a topic like pinball machines. However, I'm 220 covered in tattoo sleeves, and if I calmly asked you to stop banging my pins around I'm pretty sure you wouldn't suggest pissing in my coin slot. Oh well, guess that's internet forums for you.

    #390 4 years ago
    Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

    Um, yes.
    If not, I'd buy a Prius.

    That's fair. I guess some people like to pay for expensive repairs. Whether it's cars or pins... or anything else. I prefer to take care of what I have, have it retain its value, have less maintenance, so I can buy even more cool stuff. But to each their own.

    #391 4 years ago

    if there is no plumb bob, maybe it's cheating. then again maybe not.

    #392 4 years ago

    I have really rare games, and I don't mind people trying to slide save. It's seriously not going to hurt the game or the cabinet. but they will likely tilt out. Some of my super rares, have code that if you tilt, you lose all your points for that ball. Keeps a lot of slides from happening. My floors are super slippery so it's easy to slide save. So I have rubber feets on most of my machines. So if you slide, the foot slides off the stopper and then the game is way extreme off level with 1 foot off. Good luck playing that way. they just screwed themselves even worse by that point.

    #393 4 years ago

    a metal ball flying around in a wooden box filled with plastic. .....I hope nothing breaks.

    #394 4 years ago
    Quoted from greenhornet:

    dont come to vegas and slide save our games.
    we dont want that kind of behavior at the PHOF.[quoted image]

    An employee came from the next aisle over to yell at my friend for slapping the side of the cabinet while playing Comet. The game hadn’t given a single warning.

    #395 4 years ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    a metal ball flying around in a wooden box filled with plastic. .....I hope nothing breaks.

    I'd say slide saving a ball would probably cause less damage than an airball on a new Stern.

    #396 4 years ago

    You oughta here them crack into the glass when the drops raise underneath the ball on the Hobbit. Man that glass is tough, the noise makes you jump a foot and step back.

    #397 4 years ago
    Quoted from MrBubbles:

    Funny tough guy approach to speaking about a topic like pinball machines.

    It's not a tough guy approach, it's a pinball players approach.

    Quoted from MrBubbles:

    However, I'm 220 covered in tattoo sleeves.

    Sounds super tough.

    #398 4 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    It's not a tough guy approach, it's a pinball players approach.

    Sounds super tough.

    Haha! Hilarious. Tatoos make you 30% tougher but sleeves are prob 50%?

    #399 4 years ago

    Wearing sunglasses while playing poker should be illegal.

    #400 4 years ago

    Rubber feet AND sliders on short carpet. Tilt about medium so can't get away with TOO much.

    20190924_132234 (resized).jpg20190924_132234 (resized).jpg
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