Quoted from razorsedge:Blowing the whole thing out of all proportion, and going on about stuff not even related to the Topic.
Quoted from razorsedge:Why is it not so easy to get women to participate? ... I' m surely missing something. Lol
Everyone but you have to follow your rules?
Quoted from Electrocute:Where is the proper place to put your cigarette when it’s your turn? In the 70’s it was to rest it above the lockdown bar. Does anyone still do that?
In the 80s the bingo pins at the bowling alley had ashtrays glued to the lockdown bar.
This thread has been very entertaining for me, which is the only reason I am still here. OP seems to get in a good mood and wants to get along when it hits 4-5 AM and is half toasted. At least he is nit an angry drunk. Assuming that is what he meant when he said he stick a fork in him, he's done.
If the game doesn’t tilt, then its an acceptable move. The TILT is the penalty. Why is this still a thing?
Quoted from Tomass:This thread has been very entertaining for me, which is the only reason I am still here. OP seems to get in a good mood and wants to get along when it hits 4-5 AM and is half toasted. At least he is nit an angry drunk. Assuming that is what he meant when he said he stick a fork in him, he's done.
Lol you haven't heard of Afternoon Shift? 
... that is me this coming week.
No I'm not an angry person, drunk or sober. 
Roadshow quote I think, I was ready for bed!. Work not starting til late in the days though, so yeah stretching things out in preparation.
I'm glad others are entertained too, whatever causes it doesn't really matter. It's good!
Quoted from ryan1234:Everyone but you have to follow your rules?
No I follow them too. I haven't slide saved in years. I came to the conclusion it was pointless, damaged games for no good reason, completely un-necesary, and really ended up it simply felt like I was cheating the game. I get much more enjoyment now from the subtle achievment.
Each to their own though of course.
Quoted from Electrocute:Where is the proper place to put your cigarette when it’s your turn? In the 70’s it was to rest it above the lockdown bar. Does anyone still do that?
You should be considerate of your fellow players and set it somewhere where the smoke will not bother anyone else. Mars, 
Perhaps?
Quoted from MD_Pinball_Dude:You should be considerate of your fellow players and set it somewhere where the smoke will not bother anyone else. Mars, Perhaps?
Lol
Quoted from Electrocute:Where is the proper place to put your cigarette when it’s your turn? In the 70’s it was to rest it above the lockdown bar. Does anyone still do that?
My thoughts are, if you have one of those drink holders on the side of the machine, you could purchase an automobile ashtray that they make to fit cup holders in cars. I suppose you could find one that would fit nicely since they no longer put ashtrays in cars.
Quoted from razorsedge:Lol you haven't heard of Afternoon Shift? ... that is me this coming week.
No I'm not an angry person, drunk or sober.
Roadshow quote I think, I was ready for bed!. Work not starting til late in the days though, so yeah stretching things out in preparation.
I'm glad others are entertained too, whatever causes it doesn't really matter. It's good!
Not judging. You can sleep whenever you want. Just observing. 
Quoted from Tomass:Also it is strange behavior. You act like, "hey I am just getting opinions", now. But the first few people disagreed with you and you were like " that'a it! I'm out. I am not hosting any more tournaments!" Also made several comments on how pinside is a waste or something like that.
The op’s tune has changed since the first couple posts, and now he’s backpedaling like he was just asking an opinion, when in fact he originally came out saying he was right, everyone else was cheating with all their destruction. Now it’s you’re cheating the game or playing unfair against those whom can’t physically do it.
Quoted from Luckydogg420:The op’s tune has changed since the first couple posts, and now he’s backpedaling like he was just asking an opinion, when in fact he originally came out saying he was right, everyone else was cheating with all their destruction. Now it’s you’re cheating the game or playing unfair against those whom can’t physically do it.
Sliding is cheating in my opinion. Nothing has changed. Maybe you are reading between the lines a bit too much, or not reading enough?. Everyone is perfectly entitled to their opinion, win or lose.
Some people advocating for slide saving not being cheating the game, here, seem to treat it like it is the Only valid view.
Not everyone is going to have the same opinion as you.
I am certainly right about what My opinion is, it is my opinion!, even if some get a bit salty about it. Lol
My opinion is also shown to be shared by many, as the poll reflects. Calling all (everyone? pmsl) these people "wrong".... well if that is what makes you feel better I suppose.
Thread has Always been about sliding being cheating the game or not. Plenty want to derail it, or twist it around to something other that is essentially unrelated. Confusing the thread and making up speculative stories about people doesn't change what the poll and title is about. Distract from it all you like.
It is All the things you said there (always has been since the thread started) except there is no backpeadling or changing tune.
Lots of misrepresentation though! Lol .... maybe other peoples posts give you the misguided impression that I'm somehow "changing tune" about my view that sliding pinballs is cheating? . Yeah to me that isn't going to change. Doesn't mean I can't accept that some view it differently, or start a poll. Just do not apply that view at our events, all good!
I never thought there would be people so deadly serious about it! ... ... hmmm ... puts people off "competetive" pinball, you know. Back to the inspiration for the poll topic. 
Consistently:
-Asking for opinions, and discussion.
-"Right", as in; I know what I think, know my view. Standing by it. Voted. Not changing. People are telling me my opinion is "wrong", well not in my view! . Same thing. Lol
-Sliding is cheating and potentially very damaging, IMHO. Once again, unchanged.
-Others coined "everyone", so fourth is the same as above third point. Not everyone condones it.
Nothings changed, except maybe people are reading more openly?. If people ask reasonable questions, I'll gladly answer if I can.
If people are making stuf up or posting speculative assumptions and rubbish about me, as an explaination for themselves for Why someone must have a different view... I reserve the right to rebut the snarkey attacks.
Yeah I'm no english grammar schollar, I certainly somehow write stuff sometimes in a way that makes it less likely my intended message gets across undistorted. I do apologise for that.
But no matter how good the grammar, someone wanting to distort what another person writes can almost always find a way, anyway.
Glad I had the thought to start the thread. It's been a real eye-opener! .... about lots of things. 
*Yes part of it for me was about what kinds of events to run going forward, a small factor in deciding, making what for me is a fairly tough decision. That decision was made days ago, and that is the only change from me, shifting to unsanctioned tournaments. My own view about sliding, the thread topic, remains unchanged.
How is it cheating if it is legal in competitions???
Answer.
It isn't cheating.
You may personally hate it, but it can't be cheating if it's within the rules.
There really is nothing left to say.
Quoted from Shapeshifter:How is it cheating if it is legal in competitions???
Answer.
It isn't cheating.
You may personally hate it, but it can't be cheating if it's within the rules.
There really is nothing left to say.
He who makes the rules theory huh.... fair enough. Holier than thou.
Not all rules are honest or justified of course. It's just a decision that was made by a few people with their own opinions, beliefs and princilples. Not enforcable if you disagree on principle, and are not part of the regime.
If i don't agree with the philosophy, here's the door.... and I recently went out of it, with the others.
Yep I had to clear up alot of wild assumptions by some. Meh.
The poll remains the same, no less relevant, and my view is still the same.
Quoted from DaveH:Nothing was going to change. You were not here for a discussion.
[quoted image]
Well I was, and still am.
What are you here for?
My guess is you are here in support of slide saving?. Okay, I get it. So vote and discuss
Yep it seems to be a grey area. Of course some people will react badly when other people see what they are doing as cheating the game. Not alot I can do about that though. Still everyone can have their opinion, as I said it seems to be a grey area.
Quoted from razorsedge:I love pinball. I hate seeing them being abused
2 - 1 your out voted, it's not abuse.
Quoted from razorsedge:It can not be disputed that "slide saves" can often cause excessive (additional) wear and tear or damage to pinball machines.
It can be disputed. We're disputing it here. Damage is very rare. Usually non existent.
Quoted from razorsedge:The dispute here is essentially over their Legitimacy.
Again. 2 - 1 voted that its legitimate.
Quoted from razorsedge:It's fairly one sided here, in our real world group, but I am interested to know what the whole really thinks
The greater community of pinside disagree with your local group. 2 - 1 voted it's ok.
Quoted from razorsedge:Is slide saving pinball machines (moving the machine across the floor so that the ball never goes down between the flippers) considered Cheating by the average pinhead?
No. It's not.
Quoted from razorsedge:the neanderthols rip your legs out of the cabinet
Quite often a losing argument will switch to insults.
So to put it in your words directly.
Quoted from razorsedge:Geez I'm glad the overwhelming majority of my own pinhead mates see things the same way I do. Suck it up.
Look at your poll. You're in the minority
So dont just declare that your right.
Quoted from razorsedge:as I said it seems to be a grey area.
How is there gray area?
The tilt bob regulates how much the machine can move before it tilts...
Quoted from InfiniteLives:How is there gray area?
The tilt bob regulates how much the machine can move before it tilts...
Plenty of people disagree that it is legitimate. Therefore it's a gray area, very different opinions on it.
Tilt is for limiting nudging. A mechanism to penalise sliding the machine around is basically impossible in the past, without going outside the machine. If it was easy to do they would surely exist I think, to prevent people cheating the game. Such a mechanism couldn't be devised -> grey area.
Lift front of game, cheating. Only difference to me with slide saves is a slide detection mech is not so straightforward as the rolling ball slam tilt and so there is no mechanism to counter it. So people decide manipulating the game in this similar way is okay.... just because nobody could devise a mech to detect this form of undermining the game.
Slide your games if you want is fine. Others can view it as cheating the game, is fine too.
All good!
Quoted from razorsedge:Plenty of people disagree that it is legitimate. Therefore it's a gray area, very different opinions on it.
Plenty of people disagree. Yet, the two largest ranked tournament organizations agree that it's ok. Also pinside (the world's largest pinball community) voted that most people agree it's ok.
The grey area is in your mind.
Quoted from Luckydogg420:2 - 1 your out voted, it's not abuse.
It can be disputed. We're disputing it here. Damage is very rare. Usually non existent.
Again. 2 - 1 voted that its legitimate.
The greater community of pinside disagree with your local group. 2 - 1 voted it's ok.
No. It's not.
Quite often a losing argument will switch to insults.
So to put it in your words directly.Look at your poll. You're in the minority
So dont just declare that your right.
The minority is not necesarily always "wrong".
Chill out mate. Don't have to take it to heart. Calling all the yes voters "wrong" is a bit rich. Of course you must be "right".
Lol
Yes I do classify it as abusive and cheating the game. That is my view. Move on to something new.
Quoted from razorsedge:If it was easy to do they would surely exist I think, to prevent people cheating the game. Such a mechanism couldn't be devised -> grey area
Quoted from razorsedge:... just because nobody could devise a mech to detect this form of undermining the game.
Wait, what? You're saying that no one could come up with a device to monitor lateral movement of a pinball machine? You're on drugs or something. Self driving cars, quantum computing, space stations, GPS, etc......and you're saying it's impossible? Hell, an accelerometer and a $30 Raspberry Pi should do the trick.
Maybe you should take a step back and see it from the alternative point of view in that no one has taken then 20 minutes to do it because there is no reason to do it.
Quoted from jardine:Haven't read the whole topic, just the first page which was enough for me....why you ask...because you come across as a real douche!
And to the rest of us the slide saver condoners are obvious, and often coming across that very way.
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:Wait, what? You're saying that no one could come up with a device to monitor lateral movement of a pinball machine? You're on drugs or something. Self driving cars, quantum computing, space stations, GPS, etc......and you're saying it's impossible? Hell, an accelerometer and a $30 Raspberry Pi should do the trick.
Maybe you should take a step back and see it from the alternative point of view in that no one has taken then 20 minutes to do it because there is no reason to do it.
No. You misunderstand a bit by what you replied with there.
Let me clarify. Nobody came up with a mech to detect the feet sliding across the floor. Is that easy to devise? . No. If the designers could have come up with something, it wouldn't be happening, nor be a grey area.
Sorry, my bad, I gave you something to misinterpret and misrepresent. LOL
Now a device may be feasible, but with so many condoning a move that many do consider cheating the game, and big "organisations" classing it as legit, it wouldn't be high on the "to do list" now would it. Still doesn't mean it's playing in the spirit of the game or honourably, to some anyway.
Quoted from Blitzburgh99:If the game doesn’t tilt, it’s allowed. How hard is this?
So a lazarus with a no warning nudge is okay? ... Excellent!
Quoted from razorsedge:Tilt is for limiting nudging. A mechanism to penalise sliding the machine around is basically impossible in the past, without going outside the machine. If it was easy to do they would surely exist I think,
DUDE. It already exists. It’s the tilt. You slide any game in my house that doesn’t have warnings, you will tilt. If it’s WPC, you’re still going to tilt with warnings.
Quoted from razorsedge:So a lazarus with a no warning nudge is okay? ... Excellent!
Absolutely. If that’s what your tournament rules say. That’s 100% legitimate.
Quoted from chuckwurt:Absolutely. If that’s what your tournament rules say. That’s 100% legitimate.
Except it will get you a DNQ. Unless it is unsanctioned of course.
Quoted from chuckwurt:DUDE. It already exists. It’s the tilt. You slide any game in my house that doesn’t have warnings, you will tilt.
...and if it has warnings? ... sliding is okay. Realy limits use of the tilt bob to allow reasonable nudging.
I'd rather use tilts and tilt warnings for what they are intended, limiting nudging.
Slide saves there is no specific mech for, dude. 
Anywhere else moving the goalposts to suit yourself is cheating. The flippers are just goal posts you want to avoid going between. A few millimetres from a nudge or slapsave, fine. 10 inches west, to me that is cheating. "Sorry, not sorry".
Quoted from Rager170:Just bolt the legs to the floor and be worry free..
Not really, then someone tries it, and is very strong, and breaks the game with brute force. Not a very good solution, even besides logistics.
Tape on the carpet 3/8" either side of front feet, go over the line you're gone. That will work just fine... still gives a little "tollerance".
Quoted from cdnpinbacon:A slide-save deflects the puck saving a goal.
It is not considered illegal or cheating.
Mincing terms there. What about the goal being moved side to side a few feet so that a poorly aimed puck goes into the goal when it would have ordinarily gone out? . Yep, cheating the game, not in the spirit of the game.
Quoted from razorsedge:No. You misunderstand a bit by what you replied with there.
Let me clarify. Nobody came up with a mech to detect the feet sliding across the floor. Is that easy to devise? . No. If the designers could have come up with something, it wouldn't be happening, nor be a grey area.
Sorry, my bad, I gave you something to misinterpret and misrepresent. LOL
Now a device may be feasible, but with so many condoning a move that many do consider cheating the game, and big "organisations" classing it as legit, it wouldn't be high on the "to do list" now would it. Still doesn't mean it's playing in the spirit of the game or honourably, to some anyway.
An optical mouse sensor with a motion threshold would do what you're asking.
Quoted from twhtalm:An optical mouse sensor with a motion threshold would do what you're asking.
Maybe. How would that determine the legs have moved? ... isn't that going to be much the same as a digital tilt bob?
Tape on the floor seems much simpler and straightforward. Also very cost effective.
bang backs are legal, but 'slide saves' (jesus i can't believe i am even saying slide save) isn't? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
nothing to see here folks, move along!
Quoted from Ballsofsteel:bang backs are legal, but 'slide saves' (jesus i can't believe i am even saying slide save) isn't? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
nothing to see here folks, move along!
Just a comparison. Noting the hypocracy, and how pinball is being minced up pretty well, to be something it isn't. "Lock stealing" nonsense is another, players crying because they failed to release their balls.
Lol sorry... of topic... 
Quoted from razorsedge:Maybe. How would that determine the legs have moved? ... isn't that going to be much the same as a digital tilt bob?
Tape on the floor seems much simpler and straightforward. Also very cost effective.
Have it mounted right at the floor next to a leveler and track the floor itself.
I love that this is still going.
Two thirds of us are still clinging to hope that you will change your tune and suddenly say: “You’re right, there are already numerous devices at my disposal to make it impossible for players to execute slide saves. I’ll just use those in the future.”
Maybe once we get to a thousand posts?
Also, I thought I’d mention, since it sounds like you’re not aware, you don’t need to use the IFPA ruleset to have your event sanctioned. You can ban slide saves and still award WPPRs. You can allow death saves and bang backs as well, since, as you say, those are much more legitimate moves. Then it’s up for players to decide if they will attend your events.
Quoted from razorsedge:Mincing terms there. What about the goal being moved side to side a few feet so that a poorly aimed puck goes into the goal when it would have ordinarily gone out? . Yep, cheating the game, not in the spirit of the game.
Good point.
Quoted from razorsedge:Mincing terms there. What about the goal being moved side to side a few feet so that a poorly aimed puck goes into the goal when it would have ordinarily gone out? . Yep, cheating the game, not in the spirit of the game.
You're exactly right. They are called Marsh Pegs and were implemented by the NHL to keep the goal from moving. If the goal comes off the pegs, play is stopped.
If the designers of pinball machines wanted to negate the slide save, they would engineer a solution. But since they haven't, by your own argument, it isn't cheating and within the spirit of the game.
Quoted from razorsedge:The flippers are just goal posts you want to avoid going between.
Quoted from cdnpinbacon:A slide-save deflects the puck saving a goal. It is not considered illegal or cheating.
Quoted from ryanwanger:I love that this is still going.
Two thirds of us are still clinging to hope that you will change your tune and suddenly say: “You’re right, there are already numerous devices at my disposal to make it impossible for players to execute slide saves. I’ll just use those in the future.”
Maybe once we get to a thousand posts?
Also, I thought I’d mention, since it sounds like you’re not aware, you don’t need to use the IFPA ruleset to have your event sanctioned. You can ban slide saves and still award WPPRs. You can allow death saves and bang backs as well, since, as you say, those are much more legitimate moves. Then it’s up for players to decide if they will attend your events.
Thank you for your constructive post!
We were "told" (as a TD) we are not actually allowed to penalise players for just performing a "slide save". Options were a "raised disc" which the machine has to "fall off of", which made some high end pin owners pretty queasy. Or put games very close together, so that it can be deemed "dangerous". We were not really going to be doing either of those. The advice was that the tape markings on the floor would not be acceptable to penalise a player. If this is false, then okay.
I dont care for "death saves" that involve sliding, but if it is a subtle nudge (especially off a designed in post) I can't see why that should be taken out of pinball. I appreciate the WPPR system, I would like to find a way to continue organising tournaments for the local areas existing (and potential new) players.
Also if players are going to start demanding split games on dozens of existing titles just because the rules like lock stealing are a hinderance for them, overwhelming majority are not into that either.
Even the coming $1 fee is kind of fair enough, but it needs to be channeled to somewhere needed and useful for attracting new players, particularly Not massive prize pools (they can be provided for in many other ways, if considered necesary).
Will take it as it comes I guess. Dang, off topic again :-
Slide saves, not in the spirit of the game, locally this is the consensus. For me this won't change, but I do accept many people do love it and believe it is okay. Likewise, people could accept that not everybody agrees with it being a legitimate way to play, and yes, classify it as "cheating the game".
All good, reason, discussion, and learning, again thank you for posting
Are The same players telling you slide saving is cheating... are they the same players complaining about lock stealing ? Sounds like you need to toughen up your player base lol
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