(Topic ID: 251816)

Poll : Is a "slide save" (moving the feet) cheating the game?

By razorsedge

4 years ago


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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by punkin
  • Topic is favorited by 8 Pinsiders

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    Topic poll

    “Poll : Is a "slide save" (moving the feet) cheating the game?”

    • Yes, slide saving is cheating the game. 224 votes
      35%
    • No, slide saving is not cheating the game. 425 votes
      65%

    (649 votes)

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    There are 888 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 18.
    #251 4 years ago

    What you’re proposing is a double standard. Games cannot be moved side to side if the the intent is to move the tip of the flipper into the path of the ball, but it can be moved side to side any other time (nudging a post into the ball to save an outlane drain)? How can you possibly enforce that?

    Alien Star has a post between the flippers meant to save the ball. With your policy, a player would not be able to skillfully use that post if the ball goes between the flippers...they would need to rely on luck.

    As mentioned over and over in this thread, use rubber feet and a tighter tilt. Otherwise there is no way to rule fairly on the difference between a slap save and a slide save unless you’re going to get down on the floor and measure if the foot returned to its initial position or not.

    Some people do believe that death saves should be allowed in competition. Despite that disagreement, the current rules are easy to enforce and do not require a judgement call.

    “No slide saves” is impossible to enforce, but if you put rubber feet on your front legs and have a policy that DQs a player who causes the game to leave the feet, then you get exactly what you want. Pinburgh has done this, so there is precedent that has been accepted by tournament players and the IFPA.

    #252 4 years ago
    Quoted from razorsedge:

    Nah, not embarasing myself. If I wrote some of the things a few other posters have written here, then I would the be embarased. lol
    Another feeling subject to perspective/opinion.
    Yep, certainly. Correct. Will do!

    Good boy, time to chill, see how a little nudge instead of a death/slidesave works so much better on humans also..

    If all else fails a good slap does the trick too

    -4
    #253 4 years ago
    Quoted from ryanwanger:

    What you’re proposing is a double standard. Games cannot be moved side to side if the the intent is to move the tip of the flipper into the path of the ball, but it can be moved side to side any other time (nudging a post into the ball to save an outlane drain)? How can you possibly enforce that?
    Alien Star has a post between the flippers meant to save the ball. With your policy, a player would not be able to skillfully use that post if the ball goes between the flippers...they would need to rely on luck.
    As mentioned over and over in this thread, use rubber feet and a tighter tilt. Otherwise there is no way to rule fairly on the difference between a slap save and a slide save unless you’re going to get down on the floor and measure if the foot returned to its initial position or not.
    Some people do believe that death saves should be allowed in competition. Despite that disagreement, the current rules are easy to enforce and do not require a judgement call.
    “No slide saves” is impossible to enforce, but if you put rubber feet on your front legs and have a policy that DQs a player who causes the game to leave the feet, then you get exactly what you want. Pinburgh has done this, so there is precedent that has been accepted by tournament players and the IFPA.

    Are you saying sliding a game is nudging? ... You really lurch the game side to side for a simple little nudge against a post rubber? . Hmmm Cool..... a previous poster had a GOTG on a slippery floor, I have experienced the challenge he had myself before, but around our venues the floors are pretty grippy surfaces.

    No, no moving side to side any time. Tape on the floor giving half an inch tolerance will be easy and sufficient for our needs.

    You've got what I am saying with the entire thread all mixed up if you think my policy would be to penalise anyone for nudging when a ball is heading for the gap. The heading says Slide Saves, not Nudging. Nudge as much as you like within the tilt. If you're sliding the game about is going too far. Alien Star is a great challenging game, but something gets taken away from it by the topsy turvey competition policies. R&B awards points for a death save. There are others too.

    This is a bit out of context. I've never seen a "slide nudge" yet! Lol

    #254 4 years ago
    Quoted from razorsedge:

    This is a way pinball is intended (by design) to be played. Moving the machine around on the floor or picking it up is not acounted for in considering the game design, I don't think.

    Picking it up is not accounted for in considering the game design........ what about the plumb bob and lift tilt mechs? I think that’s exactly what they were considering when the game was designed.

    Have you looked in a game? The one is for lifting the front of the cabinet, the other is for moving it around.

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    #255 4 years ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    Picking it up is not accounted for in considering the game design........ what about the plumb bob and lift tilt mechs? I think that’s exactly what they were considering when the game was designed.
    Have you looked in a game? The one is for lifting the front of the cabinet, the other is for moving it around.[quoted image]

    As far as I know the rolling ball does a slam tilt/game reset? ... if so suggesting not intended as "normal use".

    I think the intention of the tilt bob is to counter excessive nudging, not necesarily Sliding. I bet if designers could have devised a way to slam tilt a slide, they would have done it. Heck I certainly would have!

    #256 4 years ago
    Quoted from razorsedge:

    It would make more sense to have a non sliders division than a womens division. Slide saves seem to be the only advantage burley blokes can really have over a woman (or someone whom refuses to slide) when playing pinball, otherwise everyone could play together in harmony.

    This might be the most intelligent point that you’ve made.

    Quoted from razorsedge:

    I might say quit your sliding obsession and make up for it by playing more skilfully! .... any mug with some strength can slide a game, the skill is in the subtle and well timed nudges. Those are the players that I find impressive!

    But then this ruins it for me because I believe that a slide save is an added skill.

    What your looking for is an amateur and professional divide, a welterweight and heavyweight divide, a go kart and nascar divide.

    Just because

    Quoted from razorsedge:I physically can, but I do not for several reasons
    Dose not make your argument valid enough for me.

    #257 4 years ago
    Quoted from razorsedge:

    Heck I certainly would!

    L2kLIL4.gifL2kLIL4.gif

    giphy.gifgiphy.gif
    "I know I would!"

    #258 4 years ago
    Quoted from razorsedge:

    Nah, not embarasing myself. If I wrote some of the things a few other posters have written here, then I would the be embarased. lol
    Another feeling subject to perspective/opinion.
    Yep, certainly. Correct. Will do!

    Some of the things you posted embarrassed yourself a long time ago. Lol.
    Another feeling subject to perspective/opinion.

    #259 4 years ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    This might be the most intelligent point that you’ve made.

    But then this ruins it for me because I believe that a slide save is an added skill.
    What your looking for is an amateur and professional divide, a welterweight and heavyweight divide, a go kart and nascar divide.
    Just because

    Dose not make your argument valid enough for me.

    I would describe safe cracking or hotwiring a car as a "skill" too .... maybe in select cases either could be legit or justified, but in most cases these skills would be used in a way I would feel is less than admirable.

    -4
    #260 4 years ago
    Quoted from kklank:

    Some of the things you posted embarrassed yourself a long time ago. Lol.
    Another feeling subject to perspective/opinion.

    I am the one who would feel embarased and know it or not. I don't feel embarased at all, even if you might think I should. Same as I may think people are embarasing themselves condoning what many call cheating. I don't see that they feel embarased about it (and fair enough), but I still rekon they aught to be, at least just a lil bit. Horses for courses. Meh

    #261 4 years ago
    Quoted from razorsedge:

    I am the one who would feel embarased and know it or not. I don't feel embarased at all, even if you might think I should. Same as I may think people are embarasing themselves condoning what many call cheating. I don't see that they feel embarased about it (and fair enough), but I still rekon they aught to be, at least just a lil bit. Horses for courses. Meh

    I am the one who feels if you’re embarrassing yourself. I don’t feel you have NOT embarrassed yourself at all. Same as I may think people like you are embarrassing yourself by saying people that slide save are cheating. I don’t see that you feel embarrassed about it , but I still reckon you ought to be, at least just a little bit.

    You see what I did there. How does it feel to get a taste of your ridiculous logic.

    #263 4 years ago
    Quoted from razorsedge:

    Alien Star is a great challenging game, but something gets taken away from it by the topsy turvey competition policies. R&B awards points for a death save.

    Quoted from razorsedge:

    Negating the gap between the flippers.... yes it is cheating.... Waaaay more than a "death save" ever will be

    I'm completely lost here.

    You've lamented that the competition policy of no death saving has taken something away from Alien Star and Rocky & Bullwinkle, which I understand to mean that you *should* be able to death save? And you've said directly that a death save isn't even in the same ballpark as movement intended to save a SDTM drain.

    Quoted from razorsedge:

    No, no moving side to side any time.

    I must be misunderstanding you because you're against *all* side to side movement, and a death save is literally a side-to-side slide save that happens after the ball is below the flippers.

    Quoted from razorsedge:

    Nudging has always been pinball.

    As you probably know, tilt bobs are set in a circular ring, which allows equal nudging front to back and side to side. If side to side movement was meant to be regarded as cheating by pinball manufacturers and designers, then the tilt mechanism would have been designed as a rectangular track, which only allows up and down movement.

    Quoted from razorsedge:

    any mug with some strength can slide a game

    It took me years to learn how and when to slide save. I've seen a lot of people go through the progression of pinball skills, and I can promise you that for the majority of the people (that I see and interact with), learning to slide save is much closer to the end of that progression...rather than the beginning, as you've stated.

    Quoted from razorsedge:

    the skill is in the subtle and well timed nudges. Those are the players that I find impressive!

    You should clarify your position here. If I understand you correctly, what you mean is: "The skill is in the subtle and well timed *up and down nudges*. Players that restrict their nudging of the machine to vertical movement only are the players that I find impressive! The others are cheating, but they are playing within the rules currently allowed by the IFPA, so I can't fault them too much."

    In the end, it's probably worth noting that it is *incredibly* rare that any competitor can get away with a slide save at a high level competition (aside from Josh Sharpe's aforementioned Congo wizardry). The tilts are not loose enough to allow for it.

    #264 4 years ago
    Quoted from razorsedge:

    I think the intention of the tilt bob is to counter excessive nudging, not necesarily Sliding. I bet if designers could have devised a way to slam tilt a slide, they would have done it. Heck I certainly would have!

    Yet, in 70 years of pinball design not one engineer thought about it.... there you go, your first million dollar idea, figure that shit out and you can be the guy that can say he revolutionized pinball for decades to come.

    But if the plumb bob is there to detect excessive nudging and if a properly executed slide doesn’t get detected, then is it excessive? Under your own definition a rough nudge is better for a game then a delicate slide, as long as the game doesn’t tilt, regardless of force applied.

    *** what is it, like 4am in Australia and you’re still up defending your point. I really think that the majority position sees this as a loosing battle for you. Maybe it’s time for bed and tomorrow you’ll see the light of day.

    #265 4 years ago

    I gotta ask as your logic is so skewed.

    Are you a teenager?

    #266 4 years ago

    Just a drunk weirdo. Fucking 3 day bender

    #267 4 years ago
    Quoted from BrianBannon:

    Each to his own, I never thought of slide saving as an advanced move. Moving a newer game, especially a Stern, a few inches to save a SDTM drain without tilting is really fairly easy. Probably one of the easier skills to do.

    I wasn't necessarily saying that the move is physically difficult to perform. It just isn't a skill that you will find very often in a novice player's repertoire.

    Quoted from ryanwanger:

    It took me years to learn how and when to slide save. I've seen a lot of people go through the progression of pinball skills, and I can promise you that for the majority of the people (that I see and interact with), learning to slide save is much closer to the end of that progression...rather than the beginning, as you've stated.

    Precisely.

    #268 4 years ago
    Quoted from ryanwanger:

    In the end, it's probably worth noting that it is *incredibly* rare that any competitor can get away with a slide save at a high level competition (aside from Josh Sharpe's aforementioned Congo wizardry). The tilts are not loose enough to allow for it.

    The tilt on that Congo was actually quite tight. The play there is making a hard enough move that you're working within the denounce time between warnings to pull it off. A "less intense" move likely would have tilted.

    #269 4 years ago
    Quoted from razorsedge:

    What else can I say?

    Nothing, you used up all the words.

    13
    #270 4 years ago

    The funniest thing about this thread is that I just saw my first-ever “thumbs down abuse” warning pop up. I’m a very positive dude and you have to work pretty hard to get even 1 thumbs down from me. Congrats OP, you cracked the code on irritating the shit out of me.

    #271 4 years ago

    Careful ryanwanger , if you shatz on alien star to light the spinner then rip it thats not allowed in razoredges tournaments as the designer didn't intend you to do that.

    Also, playfield validation exploits on games like jack*bot will get you DQ'd in a heatbeat, you've been warned!

    #272 4 years ago
    Quoted from razorsedge:

    It is designed into games to do this, deathsaves. Sliding and manhandling isn't an intended design feature or expectation, I think. Nothing dumb about it, just logical.

    If death saves are by design then why do so many games put metal guides underneath the flippers? I'm pretty sure those are to try and prevent death saves (Though I could be wrong).

    IMG_20190921_213219 (resized).jpgIMG_20190921_213219 (resized).jpg
    IMG_20190921_213225 (resized).jpgIMG_20190921_213225 (resized).jpg

    Obviously there are some exceptions like R&B but for the most part pinball designers tend to do things to prevent death saves, not encourage them.

    That's besides the point though. Whether or not slide saves or death saves should be allowed or not is up to whoever's running the event/location.

    #273 4 years ago

    Damn, now I miss my Stargate.

    #274 4 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    The tilt on that Congo was actually quite tight. The play there is making a hard enough move that you're working within the denounce time between warnings to pull it off.

    Do you know when debounce started? It really doesn't seem to me that something like Addams Family has it, but maybe that's because my pins are too close together to be shoved a full 2 feet?

    Quoted from InfiniteLives:

    Careful ryanwanger , if you shatz on alien star to light the spinner then rip it thats not allowed in razoredges tournaments as the designer didn't intend you to do that.

    What if I slap save (without moving the game laterally, of course), and it accidentally goes up the right inlane? Is that allowed?

    mystman12 Little known fact: that center post in Mousin' Around was put there to help with death saves. You can nudge up as the ball comes off the apron to put it back into play. (Of course, any use of the post that involves side to side movement is illegal).

    #275 4 years ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    Picking it up is not accounted for in considering the game design........ what about the plumb bob and lift tilt mechs? I think that’s exactly what they were considering when the game was designed.
    Have you looked in a game? The one is for lifting the front of the cabinet, the other is for moving it around.[quoted image]

    Kind of bad picture to use against a cheating or not cheating discussion. A lot of people would call the upside down tilt bob as cheating. With the bulk of the weight on top in stead of the bottom it reduces the amount of time it takes for the pendulum to stop swinging and the distance it will swing verse having the weight on the bottom.

    bob (resized).jpgbob (resized).jpg
    #276 4 years ago
    Quoted from mystman12:

    If death saves are by design then why do so many games put metal guides underneath the flippers? I'm pretty sure those are to try and prevent death saves (Though I could be wrong).

    You are correct. They are called Biff bars. Or at least that's what I always thought they were called. They are put there to help stop death saves and bounce backs.
    If you look at Xenon where there is a post to be able to nudge a ball back into play similar to a death save. You will notice the Biff bars are placed different and the one on the left is much smaller.
    biff (resized).jpgbiff (resized).jpg

    #277 4 years ago
    Quoted from ryanwanger:

    Do you know when debounce started? It really doesn't seem to me that something like Addams Family has it, but maybe that's because my pins are too close together to be shoved a full 2 feet?

    I'm not sure. Good question for Tilt Forums as there's a decent number of ex-Willy programmers that have probably had a chance to check out the code on debounce behavior.

    #278 4 years ago

    Put wheels on your machines and a 75 foot cord.Problem solved no damage.

    #279 4 years ago

    Pretty simple....if it doesn’t tilt the game, it’s allowable.

    #280 4 years ago
    Quoted from kklank:

    I’m asking because most people I meet don’t have the strength to do a slide save consistently

    Quoted from razorsedge:

    Slide saves seem to be the only advantage burley blokes can really have over a woman (or someone whom refuses to slide)

    i find it surprising that nobody has done a proper video lesson on slide saving. there is, in fact, a pretty simple 'trick' that can virtually eliminate strength from the slide save equation.

    #281 4 years ago

    I wanted to learn more about these "slide" saves.
    I figured that pinball machines are electrical devices.
    So I Googled "electric slide" looking for information.
    Apparently you must do some dance move with the machine.

    -4
    #282 4 years ago
    Quoted from InfiniteLives:

    Careful ryanwanger , if you shatz on alien star to light the spinner then rip it thats not allowed in razoredges tournaments as the designer didn't intend you to do that.
    Also, playfield validation exploits on games like jack*bot will get you DQ'd in a heatbeat, you've been warned!

    Hmm, I never said Anything about shatzing. Why are you thinking of banning shatzing there?. . People do it here. It is not destructive, aggressive, nor requires any sliding. Love to know where you pull these crazy misguided assumptions from? ... thin air? .... or another misguided poster that I missed reading? Lol

    The big confusions here seem to just be that some people can't differentiate or comprehend the difference between Nudging (not sliding game), and Actually Sliding A Game around on the floor (for whatever one might call their valid "reason").

    Shatzing is a flipper skill that has nothing to do with sliding a game. Or maybe someone has some slidey move where they call a "shatz" something else in a different part of the world?

    Lots of poor assumptions seem to get made here by people clearly not bothering (or unable?) to read.

    I guess if some can't work out there is a major and definite difference, the thread (to them) is pointless.

    There are obviously plenty whom find it a perfectly Valid thread topic, and even interesting... or at the least hillarious!

    I do enjoy a passionate debate or discussion, or at least happy to bring out something to help people laugh!

    I have certanly read a few senseless responses that have left me in stitches!

    #283 4 years ago

    who would you accept a pool party invite from:

    the razorsedge

    noslidesallowedpool02 (resized).jpgnoslidesallowedpool02 (resized).jpg

    or the guy who is ok with slides

    slidesavepool02 (resized).jpgslidesavepool02 (resized).jpg

    #284 4 years ago

    Oh for water parks Slides are Awesome!

    Luckily they don't move when you bang em up and shove em around, or else it could be friken Dangerous!

    But just in case you are another whom missed something, we aren't on Waterside!

    If sliding games around is the only thing that makes playing pinball fun for an individual, maybe they need a different kind of pastime. ... I could suggest some, but I won't

    #285 4 years ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    You are correct. They are called Biff bars. Or at least that's what I always thought they were called. They are put there to help stop death saves and bounce backs.
    If you look at Xenon where there is a post to be able to nudge a ball back into play similar to a death save. You will notice the Biff bars are placed different and the one on the left is much smaller.
    [quoted image]

    Nice ass.

    #286 4 years ago
    Quoted from ryanwanger:

    Do you know when debounce started? It really doesn't seem to me that something like Addams Family has it, but maybe that's because my pins are too close together to be shoved a full 2 feet?

    What if I slap save (without moving the game laterally, of course), and it accidentally goes up the right inlane? Is that allowed?
    mystman12 Little known fact: that center post in Mousin' Around was put there to help with death saves. You can nudge up as the ball comes off the apron to put it back into play. (Of course, any use of the post that involves side to side movement is illegal).

    Or do not even nudge the game when it goes between flippers and up the left outlane (out of play, considered drained, according to some) and then is sent back into play by the kickback? As far as I'm concerned this is pinball, but already been "out of play" in the view of the "law".

    In the drain hole is the definition of "drained", otherwise it is simply made into a confused grey area.

    On the playfield is in play, as the name simply suggests.

    #287 4 years ago

    Time to give it a rest bro. We get it, you are not hosting IFPA events any longer. No one is cheating if they are following a set of accepted rules. No need to keep arguing with the wall. If you can't accept it, start a campaign to have IFPA change their rules. Good luck with that.

    #288 4 years ago
    Quoted from razorsedge:

    Hmm, I never said Anything about shatzing. Why are you thinking of banning shatzing there?. . People do it here. It is not destructive, aggressive, nor requires any sliding. Love to know where you pull these crazy misguided assumptions from? ... thin air? .... or another misguided poster that I missed reading? Lol
    The big confusions here seem to just be that some people can't differentiate or comprehend the difference between Nudging (not sliding game), and Actually Sliding A Game around on the floor (for whatever one might call their valid "reason").
    Shatzing is a flipper skill that has nothing to do with sliding a game. Or maybe someone has some slidey move where they call a "shatz" something else in a different part of the world?
    Lots of poor assumptions seem to get made here by people clearly not bothering (or unable?) to read.
    I guess if some can't work out there is a major and definite difference, the thread (to them) is pointless.
    There are obviously plenty whom find it a perfectly Valid thread topic, and even interesting... or at the least hillarious!
    I do enjoy a passionate debate or discussion, or at least happy to bring out something to help people laugh!
    I have certanly read a few senseless responses that have left me in stitches!

    It's called sarcasm

    You want to ban one thing (slide saves) arbitrarily because the "designers didn't intend it" as one of your reasons

    I'm pretty sure Neil Shatz started "shatzing" after alien star was created there for that move is not of the designers intentions so I used your "logic" to ban another move.

    Try to keep up with your own (il)logic

    -2
    #289 4 years ago
    Quoted from InfiniteLives:

    It's called sarcasm
    You want to ban one thing (slide saves) arbitrarily because the "designers didn't intend it" as one of your reasons
    I'm pretty sure Neil Shatz started "shatzing" after alien star was created there for that move is not of the designers intentions so I used your "logic" to ban another move.
    Try to keep up with your own (il)logic

    Have a listen to yourself. You are going a bit overboard really. Illogical. Blowing the whole thing out of all proportion, and going on about stuff not even related to the Topic. You aren't alone either Lol

    I have taken notice of what average joe potential new players have had to say.

    This topic is not about what direction someone chooses to flip the ball, or about giving some natural flipper timing action a name specific subtitle, after someone whom started doing it more actively. I thought it was a lane pass? ... I guess different crowds have different words and languages as well. Whichever, this is supposed to be about sliding games around, and if that is legitimate for a pinball machine. Or not. Cheating the game? . Or not? .... To Anybody, not just the competetive cross section. Of course there will be different views, and people can set up their tournaments accordingly, and everyone can be happy

    Sliding games legitimate? . Poll. Comment. Discuss. Share views. Learn or hear new stuff. That's all it is. Don't have to get your knickers in a twist

    -Not about Nudging or Slap saves.
    -Not about what the IFPAs or PAPAs policy is. Lets be hypothetical, if there were no associations or the current rules.
    -Not about the varying degrees of damage throughout the scale, conditions dictate damage none or alot.

    It Is (I had hoped) about hearing what some other pinsiders think about sliding the machines around, and if they think it is cheating the Game?. Is it against the percieved intention?. Within the realms of playing the game honestly?.

    Considering the probable demographic atracted for this topic, I'm actually a bit shocked the yes vote ever got anywhere near as high as even 20%... but it already bumped to 30% now. Not as many "downvotes" as I might have expected either overall, which is kind of a positive!

    It is certainly interesting for me, anyway. Cheers!

    #290 4 years ago

    30% of the popular vote can still win ... if you carry the states with the most electoral votes.

    #291 4 years ago

    Where is the proper place to put your cigarette when it’s your turn? In the 70’s it was to rest it above the lockdown bar. Does anyone still do that?

    #292 4 years ago
    Quoted from Electrocute:

    Where is the proper place to put your cigarette when it’s your turn? In the 70’s it was to rest it above the lockdown bar. Does anyone still do that?

    On the old woodrails, you put it in the cigarette holder.
    https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/A-3889

    50s (resized).png50s (resized).png
    #293 4 years ago

    this reminds me of a mental friend, its not a normal behavior OP.
    lets not make fun of handicapped people.

    #294 4 years ago

    I do slide saves- it works!
    My wife calls it cheating, I call it winning!

    -1
    #295 4 years ago
    Quoted from ryan1234:

    I do slide saves- it works!
    My wife calls it cheating, I call it winning!

    Okay so cheating to win, in your wifes opinion... interesting. Thank you for that.

    Why is it not so easy to get women to participate? ... I' m surely missing something. Lol

    #296 4 years ago
    Quoted from ABE_FLIPS:

    this reminds me of a mental friend, its not a normal behavior OP.
    lets not make fun of handicapped people.

    Exactly, thank you. Another supporter for slide saving not being normal behaviour.

    I'm trying not to make fun of any handicaped people.

    #297 4 years ago

    OMG this thread did not disappoint! HOLY HELL! Cowardly move on the thread title though

    #298 4 years ago
    Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

    OMG this thread did not disappoint! HOLY HELL! Cowardly move on the thread title though

    Cowardly? Lol

    It is a legitimate question. What are you getting so worked up about it for??

    No need to be all dramatic like.

    Good you are not disappointed, that's the spirit!

    #299 4 years ago
    Quoted from razorsedge:

    Cowardly? Lol
    It is a legitimate question. What are you getting so worked up about it for??
    No need to be all dramatic like.
    Good you are not disappointed, that's the spirit!

    I think he means because you edited it. Not sure though.

    #300 4 years ago

    Also it is strange behavior. You act like, "hey I am just getting opinions", now. But the first few people disagreed with you and you were like " that'a it! I'm out. I am not hosting any more tournaments!" Also made several comments on how pinside is a waste or something like that.

    There are 888 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 18.

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