Under this guideline wouldn't a death save follow the same rules???? What makes one legal and the other not legal?

Lose an argument, resort to name calling. Way to go!

After many views it seems more than a little racist, but I *think* he's being sarcastic and playing into "world stereotypes".
Lol I don't actually believe Aussies act like that...it's just comedy.
But I do think you're ready to glass a poof for slide saving. Pics or it didn't happen.

I think he's referring to the Straya Day vid and the Aussie stereotypes

Double post.
WAITRESS!
COFFEE HERE!

Gotcha. In that case I apologise. I don't usually click on vids that are posted. I do think he should take a break from pinside or at least his own thread.

You play pinball with a popped collar? Say it ain't so.

Nevermind

My opinion on if Slide Saves are cheating could go either way. I totally feel the owner/establishment of the games has the right to say if it's OK or Not - and any guests/patrons should respect it if the owner says no-go.

I think it's a better Skill challenge to NOT allow slide saves in competition. When players are good at slide saves, it makes it too easy to save the ball - when their other skills have come up lacking and they would/should have lost the ball. The top players know this, and some love to take advantage of a machine with an easy tilt by slide saving to infinity. It's fun to do, but it's "cheating" in the sense that it's just too easy. Therefore most TDs set very tight tilts, which can be frustrating.

IMO it would be cool if the games could sense the difference between shaking and sliding.
Then add an adjustment for Sliding Penalty...
-- Warning (same as shaking)
-- Tilt (no warnings, straight to tilt)
-- Game Tilt (versus a ball tilt)

An extra left/right sensor could probably do the trick.

A death save is done after the ball passes the outlane switch and is considered drained. A slide save occurs while the ball is still in play.

If a ball gets stuck in the outlane it is placed in the trough. If a ball gets stuck on the play field, it’s placed on the flippers or in the shooter lane.

Similar rationale.

This thread is like saying stealing bases in baseball is cheating. Why? Because my saturday softball rec league agrees not to do it. MLB? They are wrong and a bunch of cheaters! After all it's called STEALING!

Maybe both... there certainly been a lot of leaving around here. Anyone "Slide Saves" any of my games will be shown the door legal or not.

It must have been my imagination that I had to buy new head decals recently due to one of my pins getting slammed into another.

Sometimes tilt bobs come loose and fall off and certain types think it's a free pass to beat and slam the shit out of a pin to prevent drains. IMO they are inconsiderate jackasses. Same goes for the death save guys and the rage tilt guys. If it's not yours be respectful.

And if you're literally picking up the pin off the ground to save, or death save, your ball then I submit that your score is illigitimate.

Okay I’ll define “everyone” as the people on this thread. I didn’t think that was necessary but there you go.
Second, you’re not addressing the main problem which is calling people on this thread “cheaters”. Why?

Question: Can you perform a slide save yourself consistently?
I’m asking because most people I meet (not saying this is you) don’t have the strength to do a slide save consistently, so they complain and just write off people that do slide saves as cheaters.

I played a couple games with Lyman Sheets. He nudged, slide saved and even death saved because the way the game was setup. Basically, he destroyed me on Game Of Thrones. Did I complain and call it “cheating”. Hell no. His skill level was simply better than me.(real nice guy too.) AND the game setup at the arcade had almost zero tilt.

The simple fact of pinball is that the plumb bob tilt mechanism controls whether there will be slide saves or even nudging.
So basically what I’m saying is........quit you’re whining and play better.

This is not correct, using most major IFPA tournaments as a standard. All the more reason you should not participate or submit results to that system. You just have no clue.

Any ball that passes below the flippers or, any ball that travels more than 50% past an outline guide is considered drained UNLESS, the ball pops back in to play on its own (a player causing a Lazarus save), OR there is a feature on the game specifically allowing a save, like on Centaur or Devil Riders.

For games with a post in the outhole area like Xenon and Alien Star, most major tournament directors just take that rubber off, or remove that post. If it’s there, you are not really suppose to be causing crazy movement to make a save by using it. If it happens on its own, that’s fine.

Now that you are informed, maybe that will clear everything up in the entire thread... not holding my breath...

Bottom line, there is no matter that everyone will agree on, so we set up a governing body to level the playing field. Some would argue that death saves are ok and some would say no nudging at all. So IFPA / PAPA set rules which are somewhere in the middle. Will everyone be happy? No, but they are all playing with the same rules. Again, any move that causes damage is completely unacceptable. Maybe OP needs a disclaimer: "due to poor condition of our machines, no nudging is allowed".

People are welcome to perform slide saves on my games. As long as they don't slide the game into the machine next to it, I have absolutely no problem with it. All my tilt bobs are set fairly. If you are too aggressive, you will tilt. In my opinion, a slide save is an advanced move that any good player should master.

Nothing wrong with this. If I play anyone's machines but my own, I would ask what is and what is not acceptable. No nudging at all?, no problem.

And yet even those that agree with you don't seem to harbor the disdain that you have for those with a differing view on the subject. That's the thing you are failing to grasp. Your "holier than though" attitude is extremely off-putting.

Why can't you see that even those that disagree with you also say, do what you want with your own tournaments / games, but yet you feel this need to make everyone else agree with you?

Did you honestly think that calling everyone a cheater, who are only following an accepted set of rules, was going to go over well?

You just jumped shark with that reasoning.

Also, isn't it like 3:30am in Austrailia? Are you losing sleep over this thread?

For our location league, all games have rubber feet under them.
Sensitive, but fair tilt settings.
You can get away with a good side to side save usually.
But get too aggressive and you will pay for it.
It is all part of pinball play.
Our rule is legs out of rubber feet is a round DQ.

We always check the legs on location to make sure they don't loosen up.
Never have any damage on a game from slide saves.
Loose legs will dig in though to the cabinet.

Ok, but you did keep saying it is cheating at the beginning of this. And if rules are set, everyone should play under the rules of the establishment they are playing under. If in your tournamemt, it is not acceptable, then it is cheating. But not if everyone agrees to play under a set guideline.

There are two guys in my league that do an amazing outline shake trying to walk the ball back up into play. I’m always amazed they don’t tilt doing it on a classic. But great control. Or when the ball is at the top of the slings a good sharp rap to get it away from there. Better players make harsher saves, it’s just part of the game. If my tilt is loose enough, or my floors are too slippery that a slide save can work? Oh well. But tap the game next to it and we have a big problem.

It’s just a fact of life for a game, it’s gonna take some whacks. It’s usually not abuse. And if it is abuse, it’s pretty easy to spot. That will get a direct talking to the person about it. And if it’s ignored, they will be leaving and won’t be invited back. But if you bat me with a well executed slap save or outlane shake, good on ya.

Jeez, if you don't like slide saves, which are legal, so not cheating, just tighten the tilt.

That is all you have to do.

Next discussion?

My thoughts on it are it's not cheating.

Here's a fun stick in the argument of damage or stress placed on the pin itself. My spouse holds a PE license and is an expert in statics and dynamics showed me the math that slide saves can often happen with less force being generated on the pin itself than a nudge forward that doesn't cause so much of a danger. Ergo, the math considering all variables and factors dictates that it's more damaging to a single pin to nudge the machine forward than to slide the pin. The irony of it all, every pin will be nudged more than slide saved over its lifetime.

Each to his own, I never thought of slide saving as an advanced move. Moving a newer game, especially a Stern, a few inches to save a SDTM drain without tilting is really fairly easy. Probably one of the easier skills to do.

No. If you have the experience you say you have, you should know full well it’s a relatively simple adjustment to eliminate slide saves from a tournament and keep the tilt tight but fair.

Probably one of the dumbest things I’ve read on pinside.

Dude, c’mon, you’re embarrising yourself. Everyone’s right, everyone’s wrong, who really cares , the world continues spinning, there’s more to life than this..

Loosen up your internal tilt and enjoy playing, slidesaves or not .

The issue is when you get into the degrees of what was a slide save and what was a hard nudge that accidentally moved the table a bit, and what is actually enforceable.

Slide saves like that congo above I think everyone would agree that is not acceptable. However, sometimes you might hard nudge the machine to try to make contact with a flipper on SDTM. Depending on the feet and flooring and machine, it might slide over a cm.. where do you draw the line?

Properly set tilts will engage with this, and that's the price you pay.

For me, I have ab issue with the abuse I see machines take AFTER_ the ball has drained .

The difference between a nudge and a slide (the action taken by a player, and the effect on a machine) is negligible.

I went to my local barcade last weekend, as typical. They had just rearranged their pinball area. I was playing my first game of GOTG. I went to make my first nudge of the day, and slid the game 10 inches (or more). I was more than a little self-conscious of the appearance of that move. I am well aware of how noobs react to moves or all kinds. And it was a big move.

I do not like to see people abuse games on location. I have respect for other people's property. And also (selfishly), I pay money to play those very games. Therefore, I want the machines to work well, and play nicely. And I know pinball machines are finicky contraptions, extremely prone to malfunction. So, I play them with care and respect. But I do play for real (at least when the game is going well enough that I have a shot at a GC score or something). Just as I've done for decades.

The reason that GOTG slid this week (when the previous week it wouldn't have moved at all)?

The feet were now on an area of the floor that had been getting mopped everyday (before they rearranged the games). It was so slick and so clean.

It was a struggle to play the game, because I couldn't nudge without the game sliding (and inducing tilt bob-chaos). But I wasn't going to go home, I just got there. I even tried to play Munsters. But that sucked too much and I decided that dealing with a sliding GOTG was better. So I dealt with it the best that I could. Yep, I made a lot of slides that day. Those were the conditions that I had to deal with. I usually don't tilt much (I usually tilt once or twice to find a game's limits, and then I am very actively trying my hardest to NOT TILT). But I did plenty of times last week. It kinda sucked. But that's how it goes with pinball. You must play with the physical nature of that individual machine at that time, which is always widely variable.

OMG... I'm such a destructor of pinball machines now... all the stuck-up noobs who think pinball is an endeavor of collecting and wealth will think so... I'll never get invited to play their magnificent collections.

Oh no.
Oh well.

I've was playing their prized possessions, decades before they had any interest in pinball. Apparently, the games survived my occasional slide saves. Let the noobs think what think what they want. I'm got tired of those games years ago. I like playing the new games, the ones I am just figuring out. Once I can blow a game up, with some regularity, I lose all interest. Those 30 year old games were fun 30 years ago. Now I play the games that I couldn't play 30 years ago (which are the current ones). And they will also survive me playing them also. The collector community...

a bobily bo bo, a bobily bo

Here is the actual ruling.....

Not illegal unless move off rubber feet!!!

Any player who moves a game to the point it slides off of a rubber foot beneath the game’s leg will be given a score of zero for the game. This is determined based on any portion of the leg leveler being in physical contact with the ground. A tournament director will then attempt to put the game back onto the rubber foot. If successful, the game will continue. If a tilt-through occurs, the appropriate tilt-through procedure will be followed. Should this happen to the last player on the last ball of the game, the same rules will be enforced, with a score of zero being given to that player.

I think you’re missing the point... Take JJP pirates(right out lane)- having the ball fall back into the shooter lane is not a bangback or deathsave. It’s a well timed bump/nudge.