(Topic ID: 251816)

Poll : Is a "slide save" (moving the feet) cheating the game?

By razorsedge

2 years ago


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Topic Stats

  • 888 posts
  • 159 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 74 days ago by punkin
  • Topic is favorited by 8 Pinsiders

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    Topic poll

    “Poll : Is a "slide save" (moving the feet) cheating the game?”

    • Yes, slide saving is cheating the game. 224 votes
      35%
    • No, slide saving is not cheating the game. 421 votes
      65%

    (645 votes)

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    There are 888 posts in this topic. You are on page 18 of 18.
    #851 77 days ago
    Quoted from Rager170:

    Either way, there is no right or wrong, only opinions...

    Actually you are dead wrong just check the IFPA rulebook. I really think you need to start playing tournament and learn the rules.

    #852 77 days ago
    Quoted from Rager170:

    Either way, there is no right or wrong, only opinions...

    It wasn't a pinball insurrection, it was a pinball party!

    #853 77 days ago
    Quoted from Squizz:

    Yes it's cheating - you lost the ball simple as that!
    Otherwise I might as well take a massive magnet with me and when I lose the ball, I'll just swipe the magnet on top of the glass and return it to the playfield! Can play all day long.
    So if sliding is not cheating, then too placing a magnet on top of the glass isn't either.

    Here's a list of cheaters for you to peruse.

    https://www.ifpapinball.com/rankings/overall.php

    You may also want to have a decent look at a pinball playfield next time you go to somewhere they have one, there's some architecture there that the designers have included for no other reason than to give you place to nudge from and proactively save your ball. if you can't spot them, ask an experienced player to point them out.

    You might also give the danger/double danger system some thought as to why a designer put's it in there. Sliding a machine is a skill that reminds me of driving a crane. If you've ever done it you'll know that if you move the boom with the swing the load will behave differently than if you move it against the swing. One will increase and one will decrease the swing.
    Sliding is the same, tilts are designed to give you a single warning if you touch the bob to the ring once. The skill in sliding is not being able to move the machine, it's being able to stop the machine moving without the bob hitting backwards and forwards. Single touch from a six inch slide.

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    #854 77 days ago

    So the WORLD pinball players are ( CHEATERS ) ? ? Is that what your saying?
    That’s a horrible accusation to make unless you can backup those words.

    #855 77 days ago

    Pretty sure it was sarcasm

    #856 77 days ago

    No, he's saying the best players know how to slide save with a single tilt warning. A very delicate skill to say the least. Death saves do the same thing, however this is considered cheating since the ball has already left the playfield and you are putting it back in play, the same with kick saves and bang backs, all are prohibited maneuvers, but the slide save is usually tolerated since the ball has not exited the playfield yet, and you are able to regain control in FRONT of the flippers, totally legal and legit.

    I knew a guy named Mike Bennet who was a year older than me in high school who could do a slide save that looked impossible to pull off without tilting but he could do it every time. The machine would literally move a couple of inches and not slowly either. He had a knack of getting the bob swinging then move the machine with the swing, then hit the ball, then swing it back and no tilt, and no warnings when they started putting those in the machines. If Mike had a ball left he would bury you with his save skills.

    #857 77 days ago
    Quoted from Jaybird815:

    Pretty sure it was sarcasm

    If there's one thread I can never tell whats real & what isn't; it's this one. And that's fucking saying something.

    #858 77 days ago

    Well let’s hear it from the horse’s mouth as they say…….punkin ??

    #859 76 days ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    If there's one thread I can never tell whats real & what isn't; it's this one. And that's fucking saying something.

    Love it.

    #860 76 days ago
    Quoted from Puffdanny:

    Actually you are dead wrong just check the IFPA rulebook. I really think you need to start playing tournament and learn the rules.

    Lol, its an opinion, no right or wrong. Thats why we chat about it. Not a big deal either way ha.

    #861 76 days ago
    Quoted from Puffdanny:

    Actually you are dead wrong just check the IFPA rulebook. I really think you need to start playing tournament and learn the rules.

    Well, there are actually no "rules" for slide saves.. It only mentions tilts. But could slide saves be considered "rocking"? hmmnnnn lol

    2. Abuse of Machines
    Tilt sensors are employed to determine what constitutes unduly rough handling of each machine, within the
    parameters of normal play. Abusive handling such as punching, kicking, lifting, tipping, or rocking a machine, or
    hitting the glass in any way, is grounds for a warning and possible disqualification of game or ejection from the
    tournament, at the discretion of Tournament Officials.
    Abuse of any other items, including but not limited to streaming equipment, furniture, or personal property is also
    grounds for warning/disqualification at the discretion of Tournament Officials.

    #862 76 days ago
    Quoted from Rager170:

    But could slide saves be considered "rocking"? hmmnnnn lol

    No. Rocking is rocking. Taking the legs off the ground. Sliding is sliding. Legs don’t leave the ground. If rubber feet are on the game, rocking can definitely happen.

    But you’re not penalized (outside of the games tilt sensor), unless the rocking causes the leg to come out of the rubber foot and touch the ground.

    Also abuse and cheating are two different things.

    #863 76 days ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    No. Rocking is rocking. Taking the legs off the ground. Sliding is sliding. Legs don’t leave the ground. If rubber feet are on the game, rocking can definitely happen.
    But you’re not penalized (outside of the games tilt sensor), unless the rocking causes the leg to come out of the rubber foot and touch the ground.
    Also abuse and cheating are two different things.

    I know, I was just messing around.

    Trying to lighten up the mood here. Seems very serious on Pinside these days...

    #864 76 days ago
    Quoted from Rager170:

    I know, I was just messing around.
    Trying to lighten up the mood here. Seems very serious on Pinside these days...

    Wasn’t sure based on previous posts. Haha. All good.

    #865 76 days ago
    Quoted from Rager170:

    . Seems very serious on Pinside these days...

    Always tense in a troll thread like this one.

    #866 76 days ago

    Not trying to sound sexist but I've heard "don't move the machine like that" mostly from women. My wife doesn't like it because she has a smaller body mass and frame than me and simply can't move the machine as easily as I can. I believe it's a valid request when casually playing with people who can't physically move the game to disallow such behavior, but I've never seen a "no nudging/sliding" rule in organized competition.

    I have also observed that people who don't own games or play them very often tend to think they are extremely fragile and nudging/sliding will break them. They might say something like "you're cheating!" if they see you doing slap saves, nudges, and shimmies.

    Ultimately it's very similar to auto racing. Each league and venue is different. A certain style of racing might work great on one track and not on the other. One sanctioning body might allow faster tires, the other might not. Rubbing is racing is fine in closed wheel stock cars, it's a disaster in open wheelers.

    If an operator or organizer wants sliding, they'll make sure games can slide. If they don't, they'll make sure they are on rubber feet and the tilts are sensitive.

    And it does look like the minority opinion is the "cheating" one... I mean shit, even the emoji is rocking that tilt bob!

    -2
    #867 76 days ago
    Quoted from FlippyD:

    Ultimately it's very similar to auto racing.

    Levi to thread.

    #868 76 days ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Always tense in a troll thread like this one.

    Id disagree with that. Its interesting to see peoples points of view...

    #869 76 days ago
    Quoted from FlippyD:

    I mean shit, even the emoji is rocking that tilt bob!

    The emojimugent is born!

    #870 76 days ago
    Quoted from Rager170:

    Id disagree with that...

    No shit.

    #871 75 days ago
    Quoted from punkin:

    Here's a list of cheaters for you to peruse.
    https://www.ifpapinball.com/rankings/overall.php
    You may also want to have a decent look at a pinball playfield next time you go to somewhere they have one, there's some architecture there that the designers have included for no other reason than to give you place to nudge from and proactively save your ball. if you can't spot them, ask an experienced player to point them out.
    You might also give the danger/double danger system some thought as to why a designer put's it in there. Sliding a machine is a skill that reminds me of driving a crane. If you've ever done it you'll know that if you move the boom with the swing the load will behave differently than if you move it against the swing. One will increase and one will decrease the swing.
    Sliding is the same, tilts are designed to give you a single warning if you touch the bob to the ring once. The skill in sliding is not being able to move the machine, it's being able to stop the machine moving without the bob hitting backwards and forwards. Single touch from a six inch slide.
    [quoted image]
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    I'm talking about Death Saves! ( As cheating)

    Isn't this what the original post was about?
    not a normal nudge left and right to save an out lane drain.

    #872 75 days ago
    Quoted from Puffdanny:

    Your wealth of ignorance is astounding

    Really? So you are saying death saves are not cheating if not tilted?
    Outstanding!

    You wouldn't be playing my machines anytime soon if your were to do that!

    #873 75 days ago

    Sliding is too hard to enforce to have it be illegal in competition. A slap save or solid nudge can “slide” the machine a little bit. How do you determine how much of a slide is too much? You can’t really... so you leave it to the tilt.

    IMO huge slide saves are lame.

    #874 75 days ago

    A slide save is NOT a death save... they are two different animals, and death saves ARE cheating since they put balls that have gone out of play, back into play. A slide save saves the ball BEFORE it goes out of play, and mr tilt bob is the judge if you did it right or wrong. How long have you guys been playing pinball? Serious question.

    #875 75 days ago

    "Out of play" is in the drain hole, in my opinion.

    Til then the ball is on the Play field.

    All subjective really. Different schools of thought and principles. Various rules.

    My issue was only ever really abusive players I guess. Machine damage.

    Nothing to do with tilt bobs. Tilt bobs will do nothing to prevent a high force "attempt" by some types. There is always that "first try".

    If the feet were bolted, a strong player Can damage the cabinet where the legs attach by trying to shove it sideways real good.

    More about the amount of force than actual sliding. Grippy surface means alot of force to "slide" (more likely 'jump' or 'snag') ... but if the surface suits it (low friction) then slide attempts won't cause damage. Low friction requires much less force.

    If there is a snag, such as rippling carpet, after the cabinet has gained momentum then the snag halts the moving cabinet abruptly. This is the case where I have had damage occur from "slide" attempts.

    Yes I have had leg mounts damaged (fairly badly) by brutes attempting slides on a grippy surface.

    Machine abuse (damage) is my gripe and no tilt bob is going to prevent that. It is a reactive device. Too late.

    I have and do slide my games in the workshop on the slick concrete, sort of by accident really. It isn't so intentional, but just that it takes little force because of the surface, and no "snags". Sliding the game isn't something I try to do, but when pushing for the slap save it just sort of happens a little sometimes on these slippery surfaces. Besides, high risk of tilt in causing the slide since they are set reasonably tight and one warning.

    I also feel like moving the machines feet around isn't really in the spirit of pinballs concept. Nudging, wobbling, bumping, slapping .... yep. Moving the game around all over the place? . Gone too far I think.

    Love the RaM berating and Knock on Tilt! Lol

    #876 75 days ago
    Quoted from nicoy3k:

    Sliding is too hard to enforce to have it be illegal in competition. A slap save or solid nudge can “slide” the machine a little bit. How do you determine how much of a slide is too much? You can’t really... so you leave it to the tilt.
    IMO huge slide saves are lame.

    I've actually DQed someone for a slide save. They slid the game into the person next to them.

    I guess the technical reason was interference, but it was the result of a slide save.

    #877 75 days ago
    Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

    I've actually DQed someone for a slide save. They slid the game into the person next to them.

    I've had this happen to me. I was playing the game next to them, and the slide resulted in me getting a tilt warning. The player was issued a yellow card.

    #878 75 days ago
    Quoted from Squizz:

    I'm talking about Death Saves! ( As cheating)

    Nope. Read the title of the thread. Haha

    #879 75 days ago

    Death saves are illegal, no-one is arguing against that (even if they do it on their own machines).

    #880 75 days ago
    Quoted from Squizz:

    You wouldn't be playing my machines anytime soon if your were to do that!

    That's OK your collection is pretty generic anyways

    #881 75 days ago
    Quoted from Squizz:

    You wouldn't be playing my machines anytime soon if your were to do that!

    Never ends around here!
    God I hope we would have other things to do in a dream vacation to Australia other than sit in some diaper rubbers house.

    #882 75 days ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Never ends around here!
    God I hope we would have other things to do in a dream vacation to Australia other than sit in some diaper rubbers house.

    Come and slide mine. I'd rather that than some of the slappers that play here.

    #883 75 days ago
    Quoted from punkin:

    Come and slide mine. I'd rather that than some of the slappers that play here.

    For the Deadpool mural alone!

    #884 75 days ago

    as soon as players start getting too rough on my machines tilts get tightened, warnings go to 1. its fun to watch the top guys playing with just their finger tips . Rubber feet help keep the games from sliding too.

    #885 75 days ago

    Wow! 18 pages and the OP is making the same arguments. However, I see that he keeps saying that the ball is in the hole and then back on to the playfield. The slide save is performed before the ball gets between the flippers. This is a skilled move. You have to slide the game to the side and then you have to slide it back and be in sync with the tilt bob so the game does not tilt. It’s not the same as some amateur cowboy just shoving the machine. If you tilt and end up tilting through to the next player, you get disqualified. If you bump another machine or player, you get disqualified.

    With all that being said, I will perform this on location if the floor is smooth. I typically won’t do a slide save in a home environment.

    #886 75 days ago

    Someone slides any of my machines out of position (and level) on the carpet in my gamesroom and I'd be pissed. Bump, nudge whatever, but don't go shifting whole machine. Some of my machines would tilt anyway. I had to calm down my IJ's tilt the other day as it tilted way too easy on me.

    #887 75 days ago

    Yeah I think a lot of anti-savers are thinking of a full on Lazarus death save when you basically bonk-bonk the ball below the flippers just before it lands in the trough. A slide save in my world is a quick right/left left/right shake of the game while flipping when the ball is heading SDTM, hoping to get a flipper tip on the ball to keep it in play. Just the tip.

    #888 74 days ago

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