(Topic ID: 251816)

Poll : Is a "slide save" (moving the feet) cheating the game?

By razorsedge

2 years ago


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  • Latest reply 3 months ago by punkin
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    Topic poll

    “Poll : Is a "slide save" (moving the feet) cheating the game?”

    • Yes, slide saving is cheating the game. 224 votes
      35%
    • No, slide saving is not cheating the game. 421 votes
      65%

    (645 votes)

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    There are 888 posts in this topic. You are on page 17 of 18.
    #801 4 months ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Ha not butt hurt at all. I love these tough "nobody gets away with that shit in my house posts;" they're Pinside classics. Like people are lined up begging to get in your sweet house to play your ultra tight games you cant nudge or they tilt thru...exciting! line of zombies not moving just groaning and swaying.
    Takes all kinds.

    Oh, the line is HUGE!! It actually takes skill to play at my house, because you cant just tilt the machine to move the ball like one of those mazes with a marble rolling around.

    People have never seen anything like it. Its amazing!

    pasted_image (resized).png
    #802 4 months ago

    A few weeks ago,I put felt pads on the feet of my pinball machine. Then I put lemon pledge on the floor where the legs sit.Now it slides like a dream. After all of the prick things a pinball machine does to me,I'm gonna fight fire with fire. And my next machine is gonna get the lemon pledge and the felt treatment too.

    #803 4 months ago

    The decision of whether I nudge/slide save a ball SDTM or heading to the outlanes with tilt warnings maxed out and a big bonus on the line is one of pinballs great risk/reward scenarios.

    #804 4 months ago
    Quoted from Chisox:

    pinballs great risk/reward scenarios

    And I have tilted out enough bonus to beat my opponent before in this scenario... sometimes you are your worst enemy.

    #805 4 months ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    And I have tilted out enough bonus to beat my opponent before in this scenario... sometimes you are your worst enemy.

    Oh 100%. I’ve tilted when all I needed to do was to shoot the scoop to start a wizard mode while also losing my bonus to get the replay. Did I mention the ball save was on when I did this? Funny thing is that I laughed my ass off for being so stupid but guarantee I’ll do it again sometime down the road.

    #806 4 months ago
    Quoted from Chisox:

    Did I mention the ball save was on when I did this?

    100% I have done this trying to do a shake out with ball saver on... and the face palm after realizing it really stings too.

    #807 4 months ago
    Quoted from Rager170:

    I agree.. In my house, you wont get away with any of that crap as my tilt is tight haha. As well as rubber feet to stop movement.

    Remind me not to play @ your house.

    #808 4 months ago
    Quoted from dasvis:

    Remind me not to play @ your house.

    lol, you should be trained enough to play in both scenarios!

    Its just a personal preference. I do allow for some nudging, but I honestly do not think Pinball machines are made to be moved by sliding. If so, they would come on wheels or something.

    I can bet you, if you showed anyone who isnt into pinball what a "slide save" is, they would laugh and say what the hell is that? And they have from the people I have showed.

    But no difference to me, to each their own. As long as everyone is having fun!

    #809 4 months ago
    Quoted from Rager170:

    I can bet you, if you showed anyone who isnt into pinball....

    Why would we care?

    #810 4 months ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Why would we care?

    They wouldn't "care" but they would certainly find it strange as most people dont think to move the machine to play the game.

    #811 4 months ago
    Quoted from Rager170:

    They wouldn't "care" but they would certainly find it strange as most people dont think to move the machine to play the game.

    Most people wouldn't think of a loop pass but that doesn't make it any less legitimate of a skill.

    #812 4 months ago
    Quoted from Rager170:

    They wouldn't "care" but they would certainly find it strange as most people dont think to move the machine to play the game.

    When people watch me play a game they consider that my "manipulation" must be illegal, the way I shake, shimmy, and nudge the f out of them. I just look at them and say, oh, I'm sorry, have you never seen a Yeti playing pinball before? At 6 foot 4" tall, I am a big guy and I tend to move the machines around a bit, but Mr T. Bob is right there hanging on his hook, and if he's not complaining, then why are you? For the record, my own machines are on rubber mats and can't slide at all, this helps to condition me NOT to slide save (as much) when I am playing in our pin league.

    #813 4 months ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    When people watch me play a game they consider that my "manipulation" must be illegal, the way I shake, shimmy, and nudge the f out of them. I just look at them and say, oh, I'm sorry, have you never seen a Yeti playing pinball before? At 6 foot 4" tall, I am a big guy and I tend to move the machines around a bit, but Mr T. Bob is right there hanging on his hook, and if he's not complaining, then why are you? For the record, my own machines are on rubber mats and can't slide at all, this helps to condition me NOT to slide save (as much) when I am playing in our pin league.

    I hear ya. Like others have said, if the game isnt tilting you out, then its fair game..

    #814 4 months ago

    I think it's just a matter of if your tournament or competitive player. I personal don't really understand competitive pinball, to me it's leisure activity to be played with friends. It's like playing pool with friends you win some lose some but no one gives a shit. I have never seen some one rage playing pool and for me it's super weird when people do it in pinball. For me to feel competitive there has to be a physical and mental aspect and pinball doesn't have enough of. If it's competitive for you and can slide save have at it, even if it is cheating I don't care because I don't care who wins. At the end we just push start again. I do admit I can get be a little competitive with myself while playing but I see it as a solo activity. I would get annoyed if you tried to cheat while I was playing but feel free when your at the flippers.

    #815 4 months ago
    Quoted from Rager170:

    I can bet you, if you showed anyone who isnt into pinball what a "slide save" is, they would laugh and say what the hell is that? And they have from the people I have showed.

    They say that about nudging too. Doesn’t mean they are right, just uninformed.

    #816 4 months ago

    Watched an 8 year old make his first slide save on Deadpool yesterday.
    Moved it half an inch somehow and stopped a left outlane drain.
    Looks like he'd have a hard time carrying a bucket of water, dunno how he did it.

    #817 4 months ago
    Quoted from Darscot:

    It's like playing pool with friends you win some lose some but no one gives a shit.

    Pool can be CRAZY competitive. It’s like anything else. Some like to play casually and others like to raise the stakes more.

    #818 4 months ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Pool can be CRAZY competitive. It’s like anything else. Some like to play casually and others like to raise the stakes more.

    The with friends was the context, I have never seen someone get worked up over a casual game of pool with buddies. Even super high stakes billiards people are reserved. I don't think its the slide save that puts people off, its raging when it doesn't work. Every time I have seen someone pull it off and its smooth and causal people are just impressed. It's when people are angrily slamming it into the machine next to them and the stream looks like GoPro in a wipe out that people are like, dude there are rules. My rule of thumb is raise the stakes as high as you can behave yourself.

    #820 4 months ago
    Quoted from Darscot:

    I think it's just a matter of if your tournament or competitive player. I personal don't really understand competitive pinball, to me it's leisure activity to be played with friends. It's like playing pool with friends you win some lose some but no one gives a shit. I have never seen some one rage playing pool and for me it's super weird when people do it in pinball. For me to feel competitive there has to be a physical and mental aspect and pinball doesn't have enough of. If it's competitive for you and can slide save have at it, even if it is cheating I don't care because I don't care who wins. At the end we just push start again. I do admit I can get be a little competitive with myself while playing but I see it as a solo activity. I would get annoyed if you tried to cheat while I was playing but feel free when your at the flippers.

    I feel the same way about golf. I'm playing the golf course,and I'm trying to score as low as possible. I really don't care what my friends are shooting, I'm trying to beat the golf course, which is of course impossible. My two older brothers were always worried about who beat who?
    I still laugh at the day we were playing for a soda,and the oldest brother asked for relief because he was under a tree. The second oldest brother said" No way bitch, we're playing for a soda". So then my oldest brother swung from under the tree and broke his club on a branch in his follow through.

    #821 4 months ago
    Quoted from Darscot:

    It's like playing pool with friends you win some lose some but no one gives a shit.

    I wonder if there’s a billiards forum somewhere, with a thread discussing if it’s illegal to put too much spin on the cue ball. After all you’re clearly supposed to hit the balls in a straight line into one another, none of that fancy shit around here.

    #822 4 months ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    I wonder if there’s a billiards forum somewhere, with a thread discussing if it’s illegal to put too much spin on the cue ball. After all you’re clearly supposed to hit the balls in a straight line into one another, none of that fancy shit around here.

    Massé shots are illegal I believe in regulation billards... LTG?

    #823 4 months ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    Massé shots are illegal I believe in regulation billards... LTG?

    I’m pretty sure they are legal, however most pool halls and leagues ban them because most players can’t execute them correctly and can easily damage the felt

    https://wpapool.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/WPA_New_Rules_01MAR2016-fixed-spelling.pdf

    #824 4 months ago
    Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

    I’m pretty sure they are legal, however most pool halls and leagues ban them because most players can’t execute them correctly and can easily damage the felt

    Correct... I was never aware it is a rule enforced "by the table owner". I've never shot professionally, but this rule is pretty pervasive where I have played.

    #825 4 months ago

    People get pretty pissy when you tell them they have to play BCA pool rules.

    #826 4 months ago
    Quoted from Darscot:

    The with friends was the context, I have never seen someone get worked up over a casual game of pool with buddies.

    Should play with me and my buddies. It can get wild.

    Quoted from Darscot:

    its raging when it doesn't work.

    This is something completely different. Someone who’s going ape shit and ruining everyone’s time has nothing to do with slide saves.

    #827 4 months ago

    All this talk about sliding makes me want to go play. I’ll start with IMDN.

    #828 4 months ago

    This thread makes me want to play league again. I never thought to slide save and would never do it at someone’s house or at a show. But when I got beat at league and came in last in our group because different player 4s made slide saves to go on to win multiple games it changed my mind. Try it yourself and you’ll see it’s a skill.

    And I enjoy this topic every time it comes up. More than the pinball bubble

    1 week later
    #829 4 months ago
    Quoted from Rager170:

    I can bet you, if you showed anyone who isnt into pinball what a "slide save" is, they would laugh and say what the hell is that? And they have from the people I have showed.

    The key component you're missing here is not merely showing, but also teaching and encouraging. When I show people how to slide and nudge (and flipper skills for that matter), I then take the time to step aside and say, "OK, now you try it." They do, they're successful after a few attempts, they high-five me with a smile on their face, and now appreciate how much fun the physical interaction aspect of pinball is, and the pinball hook gets set quicker/deeper into each one of them.

    Quoted from Darscot:

    I think it's just a matter of if your tournament or competitive player.

    I do not. We are ALL competing each and EVERY time we play pinball: first and foremost against gravity, and then it's competing against a high score or objective or jackpot or mode, etc. Physical manipulation of the ball/machine via nudging and sliding is one of the beauties of pinball -- and one of the most exciting, whether you're the one doing it or watching someone else execute a perfect slide save or wicked shimmy to take 2.99 dangers, but not get that tilt.

    Quoted from punkin:

    Watched an 8 year old make his first slide save on Deadpool yesterday.

    This is awesome! I forget his exact age, but I think my youngest son was 6-7 years old when he did his first successful death save. Proud dad moment for me! (and before any of you go ape [email protected]#$... no, it wasn't during a tournament, and yes, the owner of the pins was right there, too, congratulating my son)

    -1
    #830 4 months ago
    Quoted from Snailman:

    The key component you're missing here is not merely showing, but also teaching and encouraging. When I show people how to slide and nudge (and flipper skills for that matter), I then take the time to step aside and say, "OK, now you try it." They do, they're successful after a few attempts, they high-five me with a smile on their face, and now appreciate how much fun the physical interaction aspect of pinball is, and the pinball hook gets set quicker/deeper into each one of them.

    I do not. We are ALL competing each and EVERY time we play pinball: first and foremost against gravity, and then it's competing against a high score or objective or jackpot or mode, etc. Physical manipulation of the ball/machine via nudging and sliding is one of the beauties of pinball -- and one of the most exciting, whether you're the one doing it or watching someone else execute a perfect slide save or wicked shimmy to take 2.99 dangers, but not get that tilt.

    This is awesome! I forget his exact age, but I think my youngest son was 6-7 years old when he did his first successful death save. Proud dad moment for me! (and before any of you go ape [email protected]#$... no, it wasn't during a tournament, and yes, the owner of the pins was right there, too, congratulating my son)

    Lol, to me, showing and teaching people how to cheat isnt something you should be doing... But then again comes the argument of, if its not tilting, its legit...

    #831 4 months ago

    I've seen Keith Elwin nudge once was he cheating? Is that why he's the best in the world? He's just a cheater? Even if you tilt it's not cheating!!! Play better...

    -5
    #832 4 months ago
    Quoted from Puffdanny:

    I've seen Keith Elwin nudge once was he cheating? Is that why he's the best in the world? He's just a cheater? Even if you tilt it's not cheating!!! Play better...

    This convo is about Slide Saves and whether or not people feel they are "cheating".. I play just fine, I dont need to "cheat" lol

    #833 4 months ago

    But on another note, what was the evolution of the tilt sensor? I imagine, people were nudging and moving the machines too much. So to stop that, they decided to put in tilt sensors to stop the "cheating"... Food for thought!

    #834 4 months ago
    Quoted from Rager170:

    But on another note, what was the evolution of the tilt sensor? I imagine, people were nudging and moving the machines too much. So to stop that, they decided to put in tilt sensors to stop the "cheating"... Food for thought!

    Originally a ball or marble was placed on the glass on a holder and if it came off it was a tilt

    #835 4 months ago

    I don't know how this can be seen as cheating, at all. Part of the game. Ya pays ta play, an' ya takes yer chances. The machine has the ability to monitor whether it's being moved or not, as well as to punish those who choose to try.

    #836 4 months ago
    Quoted from Rager170:

    So to stop that, they decided to put in tilt sensors to stop the "cheating"... Food for thought!

    Indeed. You should try ordering a plate of that food.
    You just succinctly captured how a game (and its owner/operator) controls the *extent* to which someone can move the machine, whether you want to call it nudging or sliding, it's all relative.

    A slide or nudge is disallowed to the extent that the tilt bob setting prevents it. Full stop.
    Set your tilt bobs how you want to set them.
    If you want to add rubber feet to add friction or a physical constraint to how much the legs can move on the floor: also your call. Ultimately, it's the tilt bob that still governs.

    #837 4 months ago
    Quoted from Snailman:

    Indeed. You should try ordering a plate of that food.
    You just succinctly captured how a game (and its owner/operator) controls the *extent* to which someone can move the machine, whether you want to call it nudging or sliding, it's all relative.
    A slide or nudge is disallowed to the extent that the tilt bob setting prevents it. Full stop.
    Set your tilt bobs how you want to set them.
    If you want to add rubber feet to add friction or a physical constraint to how much the legs can move on the floor: also your call. Ultimately, it's the tilt bob that still governs.

    Yes, but that wasnt the full point of what I was saying. Point being, its interesting that at some point of time, they had to add something to stop people from taking advantage of moving the machine around. Therefore, they felt it was cheating prior.

    #838 4 months ago
    Quoted from Puffdanny:

    Originally a ball or marble was placed on the glass on a holder and if it came off it was a tilt

    Very interesting...

    #839 4 months ago

    You are good up to 'therfore'. Your assumption is just an assumption, not a fact.

    #840 4 months ago
    Quoted from Rager170:

    they had to add something to stop people from taking advantage of

    You could say this of literally any other competitive sports/hobby. Rules and game conditions evolve over time as people discover/develop exploits of any game, and game-makers adjust the rules or conditions accordingly.

    Was it cheating for golfers to develop better ways to strike the ball harder/further, rendering some courses too easy, leading to course designers/operators to adjust the hole layout and/or plant trees in certain spots to take away prior exploited openings?
    It most certainly wasn't cheating. It was a natural evolution of the sport and that course.

    #841 4 months ago

    Coming in late here, and hadn't read all the comments, but if you slide a machine and it
    didn't tilt, you may have counter reacted the bob's present swing. I like setting up machines so
    they can be decently nudged, but if a machine can consistently be slid without tilting, I'd say
    sensitivity should be adjusted to that machine..

    #842 4 months ago

    Lets see... do operators hate cheaters? You be the judge...

    matchbook covers under the front feet to reduce table angle and slow down the ball... they put in the roller tilt to counter that...

    Tilt bob to prevent major movement of the machine...

    Slam tilts in the coin door to prevent slamming the coin door so hard it makes the coin switch activate...

    Table tilts to prevent picking up the machine and dropping it in order to prevent the same thing...

    So you can "assume" that operators wanted some protection against cheats that were trying to play for free... so to include the tilt bob, it was to keep cheats from scoring high enough for replays and specials due to man handling and abusing the machine. The other exploits the coin acceptors lock out (slugs, coin on a string, washers) using validator mechs on coin weight, size and magnets and washer hooks to catch steel slugs and a washers.

    If an operator sees a user slide his machine and not tilt, he may want to tighten the bob up a bit, but are we REALLY trying to play for free these days when we slide them? Not as much as trying to get the GC score (as far as modern day pinball is concerned.)

    #843 4 months ago

    Interesting ... I haven't read all the posts but I see no mention of taped boxes around the feet of pins ... at INDISC 2020 all the pins had a box outlined around the feet of the pin .. maybe gave you 2-3 inches in each direction .. if you moved/slide/lifted/juggled the pin out of the boxes you were DQ'd .. nothing to do with the tilt bob .. part of this is that people moving games around also changes the setup for the next player .. we implemented the taped boxes in our playoffs for the last season in early 2020 and will continue to use them going forward

    #844 4 months ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    Lets see... do operators hate cheaters? …

    By these examples I’d say operators hate THIEVES.

    #845 4 months ago
    Quoted from SquidVicious:

    at INDISC 2020 all the pins had a box outlined around the feet of the pin .. maybe gave you 2-3 inches in each direction .. if you moved/slide/lifted/juggled the pin out of the boxes you were DQ'd .. nothing to do with the tilt bob .. part of this is that people moving games around also changes the setup for the next player

    I played in INDISC 2020. I'm fairly certain those tape boxes around the legs were to indicate where the pin was to be positioned, or repositioned. For spacing purposes. There were no rules that I recall that anything other than the usual IFPA/PAPA rules about tilting, slam tilting, etc. Each machines sensors governed.

    EDIT: 100% certain no rule of that sort existed for that tournament: http://www.indisc.com/tournament-rules/

    #846 4 months ago
    Quoted from SquidVicious:

    Interesting ... I haven't read all the posts but I see no mention of taped boxes around the feet of pins ... at INDISC 2020 all the pins had a box outlined around the feet of the pin .. maybe gave you 2-3 inches in each direction .. if you moved/slide/lifted/juggled the pin out of the boxes you were DQ'd .. nothing to do with the tilt bob .. part of this is that people moving games around also changes the setup for the next player .. we implemented the taped boxes in our playoffs for the last season in early 2020 and will continue to use them going forward

    I would be SHOCKED if that was what those boxes were for. On the other hand, a common ruling of DQ will be handed out if a game is nudged so that the leg leveler comes out of the rubber foot and touches the ground.

    -8
    #847 4 months ago

    Yes it's cheating - you lost the ball simple as that!

    Otherwise I might as well take a massive magnet with me and when I lose the ball, I'll just swipe the magnet on top of the glass and return it to the playfield! Can play all day long.

    So if sliding is not cheating, then too placing a magnet on top of the glass isn't either.

    #848 4 months ago
    Quoted from Snailman:

    I'm fairly certain those tape boxes around the legs were to indicate where the pin was to be positioned, or repositioned.

    yes. to keep the games centered under the cameras that had been set up for streaming the competition.

    -2
    #849 4 months ago
    Quoted from Snailman:

    You could say this of literally any other competitive sports/hobby. Rules and game conditions evolve over time as people discover/develop exploits of any game, and game-makers adjust the rules or conditions accordingly.
    Was it cheating for golfers to develop better ways to strike the ball harder/further, rendering some courses too easy, leading to course designers/operators to adjust the hole layout and/or plant trees in certain spots to take away prior exploited openings?
    It most certainly wasn't cheating. It was a natural evolution of the sport and that course.

    Yes, I do understand that but not sure I see it as apples to apples with Pinball...

    But since Pinball was originally a gambling machine, I would imagine they didn't want the machines being manipulated in the favor of the player...

    Either way, there is no right or wrong, only opinions...

    #850 4 months ago
    Quoted from Squizz:

    Yes it's cheating - you lost the ball simple as that!
    Otherwise I might as well take a massive magnet with me and when I lose the ball, I'll just swipe the magnet on top of the glass and return it to the playfield! Can play all day long.
    So if sliding is not cheating, then too placing a magnet on top of the glass isn't either.

    Your wealth of ignorance is astounding

    There are 888 posts in this topic. You are on page 17 of 18.

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