Toy Story 4 (CE)
Jersey Jack, 2022
Toy Story 4 (LE)
Jersey Jack, 2022You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider jimwe5t.
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We have just witnessed Toy Story 4 sales plummeting with used prices getting lower and lower, but still not selling. Now interest is mostly gone, with TS4s sitting in distro warehouses collecting dust. At what price should JJP adjust or discount TS4, to get people buying? What price should JJP games be going forward?
Quoted from Daditude:I have no intention of buying one, so take this for what it's worth...but I would start thinking of buying one at around 4000
Interesting, as that pricing is around the home pin mark.
Quoted from SpyroFTW:Honestly the ship has sailed. I was all in for the theme until I found out it was TS4 and carni themed. Dont get me wrong, I love TS4, but not in the same way as the other 3 movies. And it was a price I just couldn’t stomach. Had it been the story of Woody and his transcendent trip to finally reunite with his lost love, then I might have gone for it. But not this circus act. If it came out at the same price as GnR and had 3 tiers, it would have sold much better. As it is, I find the game fun, even if some sounds are annoying, and would buy one around 7K for an LE.
Interesting viewpoint for sure.
Quoted from Daditude:The Jurassic Park home pin is better...by a LARGE margin
Jack Danger would agree with that.
Quoted from SpyroFTW:I would agree with this. Much better value
JP Home Pin is a heck of a value. JD put lots of magic into that pin. My niece purchased that pin and is all giddy about how the TRex eats the ball and spits it back out. The layout JD did on that machine is excellent.
A bit different. We are discussing what price should JJP change TS4 MSRP to, not the used game market pricing like your thread.
Quoted from usandthem:As a buyer of pinball machines and not a maker, distributor, or flipper, I want them as low as possible.
We all do, but there is a fair price that people are willing to pay on LEs and CEs. What is that price?
Quoted from switch3:I dont see how anyone would buy Toy Story over any other available pin. Most don't care about the theme and those that do seem very disappointed and cheated. Everything about it is underwhelming, especially for a jjp pin. I think most that bought it were poor suckers that got in on it too early, before realizing how bad it was. And lot of them were probably flippers who are trying to get rid of it now at a loss or holding on to it hoping it will do a potc and gain new interest in the future. But potc is packed with toys and code and feels luxurious while Toy story is the complete opposite. It's like the jjp version of a home pin, only at prices straight from fantasy land. WHAT are they smoking over at jjp?
You make some very good points indeed!
Quoted from Cleanroom:Not the case at all. What you would see is a company that is passionate about their product, which is competitively priced, that resonates with the general buying public.
This says a great deal about the pinball fans here on pinside. Many really do have very good ideas and especially a handle on where pricing should be. JJP and Stern should listen.
Quoted from usandthem:I care about JJP’s viability about as much as they care about my ability to pay my mortgage. Build good machines that people want to buy at the right price or fold. Create a vacuum for someone else to give pinball a go. Or not. Doesn’t really matter. There are a lot of options in pinball right now.
Competition is such a good thing. Stern are you listening to this thread and the blunder you’ve also made pricing premiums and especially LEs out of the stratosphere? Nearly but not quite as bad as JJP has done on their LEs and CEs???
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:Other than CGC cutting price on AFM has any modern manufacturer cut prices on pins?
JJP has backed themselves into a corner by getting so worried and greedy about the tiny amount of scalpers that so few people purchased from anyway. A price cut might be the only way to salvage their sales. Law of supply and demand. When there is no demand, prices have to lower to achieve demand again.
Quoted from m00nmuppet:I wonder if JJP can shift over to doing a TS4 SE at around 8k...? What could they strip from it to bring it down?
Not much there to remove. Leave armor without paint. Take out the giant ipad screen in the back. Remove Gabby head. Jump ramp can’t cost much. Leave out cake decorators….Hmmm, you’re right, not much to take out.
Quoted from TheLaw:Wonka dropped to 7500 I believe.
Edit: Stern is a little trickier with "Street price" but MSRP dropped after 2017 for for a couple years..."technically."
So that’s how JJP finally moved Wonka’s. Same way they finally moved Hobbit’s.
Quoted from TheLaw:That was that price on release.
I believe Hobbit was Pre-order priced @ $6500, then 7k at release?
DI was 8k, Wonka 7.5.
Wow and that wasn’t that long ago for those prices.
Quoted from RC_like_the_cola:And pirates, in the middle of dialled in and Wonka, was at 8.5
Good one. Forgot it was also quite low in price, but loaded.
Quoted from rai:Point is (even with Bond LE) used to be people could buy and there was room to go up if the game was so good not everything went up but the extra special ones did. But now the manufacturer are building in the possible gain. You pay extra straight off so there is no room to go up. They’re charging like every pin is extra special but that’s not possible some are below average, some are above so you don’t want to pay extra if there’s a chance it’s not a special pin.
Then you have CGC who is still charging reasonable prices. That’s where I’m looking from now on.
They are charging like every pin is extra special. But when less popular IPs like Venom, MOTU, FOOFigthers, Gogfather, Elton come out, few will be willing to pay premium prices for these IPs. Distros will have them collecting dust for years to come.
Quoted from zaphX:I am sorry to say the price hikes really soured me on the hobby.
It's not a question of budget - I *can* afford them, I just don't *want* to at these prices.
They pushed the prices high enough to make me second-guess what the hell I'm doing, here.
Looking at TS4s not moving at 2K off MSRP with < 20 plays tells me the smart move is sit on the sidelines and wait.
FWIW I think TS4 is a $7500 LE and a $9500 CE. It was absolutely the wrong game for them to get greedy on.
My last pin transaction was a trade, and I've got no plans to purchase any NIB games at this time.
I'm legitimately looking for other ways to spend my time.
To hear you saying these things means a lot. You’ve been an avid JJP fan for a long time. You’re right, these prices are so ridiculous that they’ve taken the fun out of pinball and its not just JJP, but Stern too. There once was a time you could play the game as long as you like and then sell it to someone else to enjoy for about the same as you paid. JJP and Stern has destroyed that model. You can see the lack of interest here on Pinside, as the number of posters/participants is way down too.
Quoted from zaphX:Yep. Blame my wife; when she sinks her teeth into a pin she starts stacking it with 4P games and won't let go of it.
Wow, that’s dedication! She must be an expert by now.
Quoted from naf_llabnip:I couldn't be happier with my $7500 Wonka SE. $10K seems like the right price for a packed LE game with a great theme. I hope JJP comes out with a magical machine and lowers the price, or I fear they will not survive. At some point it reminds me of an old comic strip that showed a kid selling lemonade for $700 a glass. He told his friend: "I just need to sell one glass."
You’re right, they won’t survive with subpar themes and super high prices. Hoping they bite their pride and do what all good companies do when they realize they’ve made a huge blunder in pricing, by lowering MSRP substantially.
Quoted from rai:I know this is about JJP but Stern really ticked me off with Bond LE at $13k! I mean come on man, DP LE was $9k. Ok it’s inflation or what not. But to me the LEs have always been a hit or miss on if I thought they were worth the extra coin for a bit of fluff. Art blades, shaker etc. it’s really not much.
I had not too far back bought a SW premium and JP premium for $7200 and $7800 (that’s $15k) not too long ago. That’s crazy because people are trying to sell Bond LE for $15k. Are they on crack? They’re making twice as many Bond as they made DP LE.
Stern got greedy imo. I know that’s nothing new $2k topper ok I’m out. I’ll enjoy my pins that I own and maybe CGC as they are still reasonably priced.
I can’t see $13k for Bond LE not when they make 1000 units, I just can’t.
Plus JJP calling their standard level pin the LE. How is it an LE when there’s nothing below it. Where’s the base model? Since when is the lowest model the LE?
PT Barnum was right there’s a sucker born every minute.
All very good points and fully agree. Stern is almost as guilty as JJP. I was also shocked at a $13k LE for Stern. Pure greed on Stern’s part and inflation had almost zero to do with it. 1000 LEs at $13k? It’s not really $13k with tax and shipping, closer to $15k, that’s the real bad part.
Quoted from 6S3NC3:Market will always set the price. Distributors will try to capitalize on high price due to how the secondary market has been, but unless you put out a High Demand product the buyers/price will drop like flies no matter the Hype and FOMO. I have been in this hobby over half my life and IF TS4 was a homerun this convo would not exist. They simply dropped the ball and with all the HYPE and FOMO they are now paying the price. This will not dictate there next pin price. They just need to hit it out of the park next time. ALL the pins that are selling at MSRP or above all offer this hobby somehting. Iron Maiden, GZ, Pirates the list goes on. These pins will always sell and its not due to HYPE or FOMO. Go back to Tron pro or LE. Why is the price high? Because its a homerun pin. Put out a homerun and get your money, put out a turd and get inventory.
Home run pins sell themselves and hold their value for sure.
Quoted from rai:This sums it up well for me, you hit the nail on the head.
I'm not saying it's too easy, it's not too easy for me and it's fun etc.. It's the price that stings when I can get a DI LE for $8.5K (ish) that's my choice, DI is a great game.
Tell me why I would spend $4K more (or even $2K more) than a DI LE to get a TS4 LE, they are both fun and I really like the theme of DI and the toys more than TS4. Drones, five magnets, multi function theater, subway, camera, moving QED target.
Pat Lawlor makes great pins it was JJP that decided the price point.
DI is one of Pat’s best. So many fun toys. Never get tired of the Quantum theater. Good points, why not buy DI anywhere on HUO market from nearly $5,000.00 to $8,000.00 less money than a TS4?
So much more game there than TS4. Few deny TS4 is not fun to play, but the price? JJP shot themselves in the foot.
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Quoted from arcadenerd925:Day 1 LE buyer, no regrets, game is a blast to play for me and the fam. I don't find it shallow at all but I'm also not a great player (and my pins are all low plays due to schedule/time). I wont be finishing the game any time soon. Yes it's overpriced but I'm still glad I bought it. 10k LE 12K CE would have been more of an appropriate price point IMHO. The release could have been handled much better.
Nice that its worked out for you. Always nice to hear someone that is going to hang on to it no matter what, then the price doesn’t matter as much I suppose. It’s resale that’s the killer.
Quoted from Rarehero:This is how JJP has always been. Their games are "Limited to....", which means - they'll only make up to that number. It might end up being less, if interest wanes...but it'll never be more than. When WOZ came out, they didn't have tiers like Stern. Stern always has one LE - when it's gone, it's gone. The way JJP does it, they can do "Emerald WOZ limited to 1000"...then Ruby Red limited to whatever, Yellow Brick Road limited to whatever.
Quite a difficult business model to run successfully. Collectors don’t like it, because they want exclusive, like POTC at only 1k total made.
Quoted from Duster72:I would buy a TS4 if it were priced the same as a Stern Premium. My kids love the machine. At this point I wouldn't really want to buy one even at $9,000 however because we haven't seen the pricing bottom yet.
I understand why a company would want to get as much money as possible for their products, but if you want to operate on a scarcity model then I don't think you can also charge secondary pricing. They should probably study Nike or Nintendo - two companies who have been operating this way for decades. Those companies benefit from the secondary market because when they put out a second tier product people buy them impulsively due to FOMO and the knowledge that they can always be resold for about what you paid if you decide you don't want the product later.
When you are selling $10,000 toys I think it makes sense to let your customers feel like they can buy them with little risk since they can be sold down the line for near the purchase price. When people are losing 2-3K on a purchase they aren't going to be excited about the next one.
If I were JJP I would start a loyalty program and give previous buyers first dibs on new machines. That model works well for other luxury brands that only allow you to buy the desirable products if you have a history of supporting the brand's other products. That would build brand loyalty and give them more guaranteed sales for every table they put out.
Good points! Allowing customers to buy when they feel there is little risk, is magical for any manufacturer. People don’t like losing 3k plus on a purchase, when they desire to move it onward.
Quoted from Rarehero:TS4's failure is more about botched use of theme & lack of mechanical features. I guarantee you if the pin was themed "Toy Story", and not TS4, and was based on either just 1, 1&2, 1&2&3, or 1-4...and actually met TS fan expectations, it would have sold like crazy...no one would have been complaining about the price too much. Being based solely on the TS movie no one cares about + going hard on the carnival aspect + zero mechanical toys = buyers HAD TO focus on the price...because now they weren't impulse/nostalgia buying. They had to truly decide if they wanted to spend that much on this thing that they didn't want.
Your points are at the base of it all. Had it been more acceptably priced at 7500 LEs and 9500 CEs or even a thousand more on each, the discussion maybe quite different.
Quoted from Rarehero:Well, that's why they make the Collector's Edition, for those who need more rarity to be happy. JJP CE = Stern LE. JJP LE = Stern Prem (sort of)
Yes, similar levels.
Quoted from zaphX:I wish they'd just go back to $9500/$12500 pricing. Add $500 to each side if you *must* for supply chain fuckery or whathaveyou.
Above that...[quoted image]
I’m with you on that, but still think you’d have to load the games to even garner those prices. Empty like TS4? Nah…
Quoted from Ollulanus:I don't think Bond LE is "worth" $13k, but I don't blame stern one bit for charging that. If it was 11k, it'd be getting flipped on pinside for 13k+ anyway. No one needs an LE, but apparently there are enough people who will pay it, and better stern gets the money than the guy selling like 5 NIB Zeppelin LEs last month. At least they're making (mostly) cool games. Sucks that that's where prices have landed, but for the moment that's where things are. I have an LE on order; would have felt a lot better at 10 or 11, but if I ever sell it (emergency only, grail theme for me), I doubt I'll lose much even worst case.
I've played a good bit of toy story; if the game and license were better the price would still be painful, but it would make sense. Unfortunately, it's a b-tier license and game at best. Other than the jump ramp, the shots are dull (and limited). Modes are uninspired. The light show is great, but otherwise it feels phoned in. I'd rather have any game from the last five years,.except maybe Halloween... actually, I'd rather Halloween/Ultraman, because even though I don't care for the gameplay they're at least trying something different.
TS is not bad, it's just not good, and it's definitely not interesting. I don't care much to play WOZ, but that was a COOL game. You'd think with the way GNR sales fizzled they'd have got the memo and cooled it on pricing, but I guess they misread the room on TS vs TS4.
Yes, Stern also got very greedy sticking it to the LE buyers on Bond. A 17% increase and the pro only having a 1% increase? Not good Stern! You’re killing your LE market. Stop worrying about the few scalpers out there. That’s just part of business.
Quoted from m00nmuppet:I know who it is and that he's good, I posted the vid because someone said hitting the CaBoom ramp was way more exciting than what GZ had to offer. So I wanted to show that if you hit CaBoom once or even a dozen times in a row....it's not all that exciting.
And the real problem is there's nothing much else going on with the TS4 playfield.
That is the real issue, not much else going on with the PF. And unlike the similar shot Pat designed on NGG where you could actually see the ball going over the jump flap, because of angle and distance, this jump flap is almost view negligible, being straight on and a very short distance with almost no kinetic effect for the player.
Quoted from zaphX:That's not entirely fair. What if you buy a game expecting to like it, and don't?
You'll want to recoup as much as you can, quickly.
And with a loaded good title it can be easily flipped for around the same money or more. That has been the appeal of pinball since it started. Why would anyone spend $10k otherwise, let alone the startling $12k to $15k being charged for TS4?
Quoted from Rarehero:I finally played TS4 at the awesome Eagle Rock comic book store , “Revenge Of”. It was pretty much exactly what I expected. The slot machiney vibe, the lack of character & story & anything connected to the franchise. I was impressed by some Lawlor-isms in the design that you don’t pick up on from pics/videos. Just like, how guides and gates are designed, how the ball “feels” as it travels. It’s kinda like Dialed In - cool design, very B/W Lawlor…but the overall execution kills the experience a bit. Ultimately I found it boring & just went to play other games. I played Munsters more…technically not as impressive design-wise, but I was having more fun.
Nice review.
Quoted from zaphX:My take on TS4, given that the longevity (which I equate to value) is thin:
$7500 LE / $9500 CE.
Going forward for new games, I think JJP need to humble themselves a bit and make $10000 LE, $13000 CE.
Still more than their old model, but not offensively so.
Good take on TS4. Wonder if TS4 will move even at $7500 LE / $9500 CE? It’s that 4 that may stop that pricing model.
The thing JJP has not taken into account is that most of us would never purchase any pinball machines from scalpers. So when they became the scalpers, it has caused a revolt against the manufacturer themselves.
Going forward, think as the poll in this thread indicates (as long as the new JJP puts so little into the games now, compared to WOZ), $8500 LE & $10500 CEs might be more closer to where they should “humble” themselves. Stern’s $10k $13k model is being met with almost the same fury.
Quoted from zaphX:You're right.
If the games are going to be thinner going forward (in mechs/sculpts/code longevity/etc) then I would agree. My 10/13K suggestion was based on them making games of GNR caliber.
If they stepped back to the ring with GNR type BOMs, more people would be willing to accept the high prices of 10/13k, but no more. Stern is also going to learn this lesson going forward imo. Bond will sell at 10/13k, but venom, MOTU, Foofighters, and even Jaws, will most likely not. Unless a miracle somehow happens and the economy turns around, lol (wishing).
Quoted from Rarehero:Depends on the game. Technically Stern has been “the scalper” year after year. Remember when $10k by Xmas” was a joke? AC/DC LE’s were $6600 shipped. Met LE was $6800. Star Trek LE waa $7500. Years pass - Godzilla LE was $10.5k. Rush LE was $11.5k. Bond is $13.5k. Premiums are almost at $10k now. There’s been no revolt with Stern. People want them, pay up, and the company keeps growing. JJP’s prob is the game, not the price. If TS blew minds, it would be totally sold out by now.
Fully agree Stern has been scalping us for quite some time, but its now blatantly obvious and no longer will most people tolerate Scalping by Stern going forward on lesser IPs. They’ve also hit the wall with people’s tolerances imo.
Stern has been getting away with it, because they’ve kept pros lower on the totem poll to appease operators and the masses. And because Stern has no real competition. We all wanted JJP to be that competition, but they keep shooting themselves in the foot over and over again.
Quoted from Zablon:I think people are on the wrong track if they think the next games from any manufacturer are going to go down instead of up. It doesn't matter if the game is trash or not. People will preorder, then complain that it sucks, but the prices are going to continue to rise as long as people keep preordering without playing.
If manufacturers are worried about flippers (which I don't think they are), then rather than take orders and make them, make them, complete them and THEN release them. They are making the same # regardless. What is becoming apparent is the business model needs to adjust with the market...that is if people actually use common sense and quit throwing countless thousands sight unseen.
Right now they are trying to maximize, and that will only work for so long - especially when it is apparent that quality is headed in the wrong direction across the board.
Some good points! Prices will come down, when sales soften or even halt to some degree. Its the law of supply and demand. Pinball manufacturers day of reckoning is coming, unless some kind of miracle economic change takes place.
Will the market continue to buy at high prices sight unseen? Imo, when prices are scalper high, no the market will no longer buy until the game is proven or they’ll just continue to plummet in value, like TS4 is doing.
Quoted from seenev:Stern has gone crazy with topper prices as well. I just got a tmnt and the topper is an insane $1000. No one's buying it. Lots of sellers are sitting on stock that's not moving and now they're done making the game, so it's not like there's going to be a lot of new buyers going forward. They really need to cut the prices on these things or they're going to be sitting on stock forever.
It is crazy priced for what it is for sure. Pinball has almost no common sense within the ranks of the manufacturers.
Quoted from galore2112:[quoted image]
What does this mean? You need the topper to do this?
Quoted from seenev:I think he's trying to say it's sold out. Pretty much everything on Stern's site is sold out. Lots of them at distros though.
Yeah, that’s the hype line constantly used in Pinball, “sold out” means sold out to distributors not the consumer. Thanks for clarifying.
Quoted from tbutler6:Something significant happened in the last 12 months in regards to the pinball “climate” and buyer’s experience…a shortage of supply, delays, and a need to jump in has shifted to the results of consumers’ re-evaluation of “value”….prices will go down…remembber when all skus were posted on distro websites? The games need to go away. Follow the cointaker and gameroom goodies sites
Like your observation. Yes, prices will have to come down, once demand has been satisfied. People are out now traveling, so pinball will be down the list of importance.
What do you mean, “ Follow the cointaker and gameroom goodies sites?”
Quoted from galore2112:So, did Stern already get their money? If so, $999 was not too expensive from Stern’s POV.
If distributors can’t sell them, it’s their problem now. It may be a problem for Stern in the future, if distributors won’t buy from Stern.
If Stern didn’t get their money yet, then why do they even bother with an online store? 95% of their wares are sold out on their online store. It’s a silly store then.
Stern, JJP, whomever, always gets their money upfront. Distros are holding the bag if things don’t sell. Its tough to be a distributor if in the minds of the people there is an economic downturn. All pinball makers love putting on their websites the words, “sold out”. Those 2 words keep FOMO alive and well in the minds of the pinball buying public. Hence we see people buying sight unseen, $15,000.00 toys. Whom then regret their decisions, when the game turns out to be lame. Lol
Quoted from galore2112:I understand that there are individual situations that are challenging.
But we as a society have low unemployment and a demand driven inflation with people in general having *so much money* that virtually everything is in short supply because there’s a buyer around every corner, no matter the price. Covid is not a supply excuse anymore. It’s demand driven.
How is that a “bad economy”?! I swear people are oooozing $$$$ out of every orifice. I had to wait half a year for a freaking pinball machine that cost $10k and I have to wait a year for a new EV while Stern and BMW are firing on all cylinders because there are *masses* of people with tons of disposable cash like me around. How is that bad?????
Bad economy. Yeah right. Where’s the mass unemployment?? Where are mass corporate bankruptcies? Where can I walk in and buy a high priced item and negotiate the price down?
Don’t you think we have super inflation because of insane levels of printing “free” money by the FED?
Quoted from konghusker:I think the option of 9500 LE and 11500 CE would have been the best option in a poll. Those prices are already ridiculous, but still manageable for most to splurge on a jjp every blue moon
Yes, could be a good option to have, but its not been met with much enthusiasm from the Stern crowd. That was the pricing scheme for RUSH. It has not sold that well because of the big increase over GZ, which was $1000.00 less. Now Stern has really raised the ire of most of us, with insane price increases on Bond. Not near as bad as JJP, but bad none the less.
Quoted from Jaytech10:Pinball is slowly coming back to the player/hobbyist. Now I see most of the haters are scalpers. Lesson is don't commit without seeing. You don't do this with cars, boats or other big ticket items.
Why do people commit to such a large purchase sight unseen?
Quoted from arcadenerd925:FOMO for sure.
FOMO is to the determent to all whom succumb. Strong drug, lol.
Quoted from TheLaw:Because 90% of the time it's pretty even monies.
But do you think that’ll be the case going forward with the insanely high pricing from Stern and JJP?
Quoted from zaphX:Past experience with previous products builds trust.
Price gouging and reducing value in the products breaks it.
Never a truer statement for pinball. Does it seem that JJP has lost their way from original goal of having “loaded” games for a good value?
Does anyone know or venture to guess who made the absolute insane decision to kill their market with ultra greedy pricing and pro level or even less, PF features???
Quoted from PanzerFreak:…would only pay $6.27 for Toy Story…
Hey P-Freak buddy, JJPs #1 cheerleader, long time! Glad you’re enjoying your TS4 CE. Knowing you, old Stern hatin Troll buddy, you probably did only pay $6.27 for it, lol. 
Quoted from AFM95:You guys have this all wrong. The only way TS4s are going to sell in the five figures, you need to bring in the big guns.
Call Al Harrington - he is your guy.
[quoted image]
This is too funny! Only JJPs super high MSRP tube-man might look closer to this…
AF0F6FFA-C09F-4A4F-B426-5CBE734FC855 (resized).jpegQuoted from seenev:If you want a good laugh, go back and listen to all the podcast episodes from the week of the TS4 release and listen to Jack et al take a premature victory lap again and again.
Thanks, I did just that and you’re right Jack’s obvious over hyped victory laps were just that. Now that lots of time has past, we know it was not true at all. Tons are on the market place at fire sale prices and not selling. In the poll there are only 12 people happy to pay current JJP pricing. That would not make for a successful business in the future for JJP, only selling to 12 people at their super high MSRP asking prices.
Quoted from screaminr:It's not just the price of the lights , don't forget you have to drill the holes , add inserts , wire them up and program them .
The cost is definitely there .
GNR has 350 rgb's GZ has 13 .
Whether you think it's worth it or not , is another debate .
Is pinball now down to being good and worth it, if its just a box of programmed LED lights at $12k to $15k?
(Maybe if LED lights are someone’s thing, why not buy some programmed “Stadium” LED light package(s) for a couple hundred dollars is all and they’re fully programmable too. No holes need to be drilled either, lol.)
The 13 GZ LEDs have purpose and tell the player where to shoot etc. 350 RBGs on GNR look cool, but serve no purpose to the player at all. In fact they just confuse the basic premise of all pinball playing, of what lights were originally designed to do, showing where to shoot the ball.
Quoted from zaphX:So instead of only a handful of impatient rich people overpaying, now EVERYONE overpays. Nice.
Agreed, Stern and JJP becoming the scalpers makes no sense in the long run. LE or CE buyers will not buy for lesser titles. CEs and LEs will sit on the shelf collecting dust just like Beatles has done, when the games are overpriced. Both Stern and JJP will learn this lesson is my prediction. Then they’ll have to humble themselves and bring pricing back to reality or sit on their product. FOMO does have a ceiling.
Quoted from screaminr:You're right , you've convinced me .
In fact , the more lights you have the cheaper the game should be because they get a better deal bulk buying the lights
Too funny, but you’re right at the same time. Buy 5 meters of RGBs at bulk price of $1.75. Whewwwww, cheap as chips as they say, lol. (Now we just need to program them, thinks JJP programmer :/)
Quoted from screaminr:Mainly surface mounted leds these days .
Spooky uses the strips in Halloween and Ultraman and they look cheap .
Yes, they look cheap and not even a diffuser on top of the bare LED strips. Will give it to you that JJP surface mounted hotrails do cost more at a single price of $23. Bulk pricing is probably half that or less. But they do look nice for all those into lots of lights on the PF!
Quoted from arcadenerd925:…legit discussion about pricing.
Yes it is a legit discussion about pricing. So let it be known, no more side talk about cheap LED discussions from now on. 
LEs 8500 & CEs 10500 still have the lead in our poll. It is good for manufactures to see where the market should go from here. Everyone wants more for less, but its just not possible it seems. There is a point where makers can settle to make everyone happy, even profit margins. Keep your customer base JJP and Stern, don’t keep driving them away for very short term profits. You’re in this topsy turvy’s race for the long haul, right??? Most think we’ve reached the breaking point…do you?
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Quoted from rai:Or just don’t overpay and get a pro or premium or just pass and get something from CGC that’s what I did.
Stern has done this before, you can still see Beatles platinum and diamond editions sitting on dealers inventory. It’s not that Beatles is bad it’s just not worth what they were asking.
CGC keeping pricing more reasonable is sure winning them lots of customers isn’t it?
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