Quoted from Dawson:Mike I stand corrected on your restore , this is "your work" and I would also love to see it in person ..
Inspiring ..
No worries, it's only pinball
Quoted from Dawson:Mike I stand corrected on your restore , this is "your work" and I would also love to see it in person ..
Inspiring ..
No worries, it's only pinball
Quoted from Dawson:Mike I stand corrected on your restore , this is "your work" and I would also love to see it in person ..
Inspiring ..
You ought to see the WH20 restore Mike did that I bought from him when he got tired of it, it's amazing work.
Quoted from Hellfire:Alltek boards arent realy superior they are just new replacement boards but rebuilt originals are just as good if the tech knows what they are doing.
Alltek and rottendog boards are just for the people who cant fix the originals properly besides the way people generaly complain about the cost of a higher end restoration how do you think another $500 would go over on the bill and to my knowledge Alltek also dont make any replacement board for the Bally S&T.
Also it has been observed the Alltek Mpu has program glitches in several games same as the rottendog 327 multigame MPU.
The light driver boards only have a a power wire upgrade same thing can be modded onto an original boards they dont eliminate all the Led flicker as everyone thinks they do.
The driver board is the only real upgrade but then again replacing the obsolete LM323 regulator with a current voltage converter and rebuild for less than a new board makes an original just as good as the new replacements.
But I do agree on one point the header pin connectors should be changed or at minimum reflowed.
Over the past 12 years working on hundreds of classic Bally/Stern games, including operating these games on location, I have found that Alltek holds up far better than original boards, and properly repaired original boards, and Rottendog, too. Hey, if you want to trust repaired original boards in a high dollar restoration, go right ahead. I believe HEP uses Alltek where available, too.
Clearly, Rob, you can work on your own stuff and I am sure do a great job at it. Can all of your customers do the same level of electronics work as yourself? Probably not. So when that repaired original board breaks in 2, 5, or 10 years, do they call you for a warranty replacement? Alltek has replaced several MPU boards for me in warranty that had over 5 years of service, no questions asked as they have a lifetime warranty. I can assure you that people that buy high end restorations don't want to have to repair their own boards.
Also, saying that the original solenoid driver with a current voltage converter is the same as the Alltek just isn't accurate. Do you have any practical experience working with the Alltek solenoid driver board? It has indicator lights for bad coils, at a glance info available, not to mention short circuit protection--very helpful. These are great features that are not part of the original SDB.
Not sure why you are throwing rocks at the replacement board guys, especially Alltek. Their boards have saved many games.
.
Quoted from BrianBannon:Over the past 12 years working on hundreds of classic Bally/Stern games, including operating these games on location, I have found that Alltek holds up far better than original boards, and properly repaired original boards, and Rottendog, too. Hey, if you want to trust repaired original boards in a high dollar restoration, go right ahead. I believe HEP uses Alltek where available, too.
Its not a matter of throwing rocks at the altek and rotten dog but its true they have glitches ask anyone with a black knight about the 327 board having missing features in the game. i have also noticed all the way through version 9 if you use the altec board in a medusa it has a olympus bug and targets stop resetting, on xenon the software also has a tube shot and xenon bug among others.
Further rottendog boards ive dealt with on routed machines have more problems than reworked original boards along with numberous posts here in the forums about people having issues with new boards out of the box or arrive non working.
As far as HEP restorations hey anyone wanting to spend $10k to restore a SS Bally Ide be more than happy to use Altek boards for them like HEP if they like. i do offer altek boards on my restorations if the customer requests but typicly they dont want to pay the extra money for them
And well the pretty diagnostic lights i can add but realy they are kinda a waste of time since sol. malfunctions are so easy to track down on these ballys. esp using the Sol. test the number coil that dosnt fire is the bad one the same test you have to run to use the diagnostics lights on an altek board is only good if the problem is on the board itself.
Quoted from BrianBannon:Over the past 12 years working on hundreds of classic Bally/Stern games, including operating these games on location, I have found that Alltek holds up far better than original boards, and properly repaired original boards, and Rottendog, too. Hey, if you want to trust repaired original boards in a high dollar restoration, go right ahead. I believe HEP uses Alltek where available, too.
Clearly, Rob, you can work on your own stuff and I am sure do a great job at it. Can all of your customers do the same level of electronics work as yourself? Probably not. So when that repaired original board breaks in 2, 5, or 10 years, do they call you for a warranty replacement? Alltek has replaced several MPU boards for me in warranty that had over 5 years of service, no questions asked as they have a lifetime warranty. I can assure you that people that buy high end restorations don't want to have to repair their own boards.
Also, saying that the original solenoid driver with a current voltage converter is the same as the Alltek just isn't accurate. Do you have any practical experience working with the Alltek solenoid driver board? It has indicator lights for bad coils, at a glance info available, not to mention short circuit protection--very helpful. These are great features that are not part of the original SDB.
Not sure why you are throwing rocks at the replacement board guys, especially Alltek. Their boards have saved many games.
Couldn't agree more. The Alltek boards rock and the companies service/warranty are both awesome. Lifetime warranty...unheard of in the pinball industry. fwiw, I haven't had the same luck with Rottendog boards.
Quoted from Hellfire:.
Its not a matter of throwing rocks at the altek and rotten dog but its true they have glitches ask anyone with a black knight about the 327 board having missing features in the game. i have also noticed all the way through version 9 if you use the altec board in a medusa it has a olympus bug and targets stop resetting, on xenon the software also has a tube shot and xenon bug among others.
Further rottendog boards ive dealt with on routed machines have more problems than reworked original boards along with numberous posts here in the forums about people having issues with new boards out of the box or arrive non working.
As far as HEP restorations hey anyone wanting to spend $10k to restore a SS Bally Ide be more than happy to use Altek boards for them like HEP if they like. i do offer altek boards on my restorations if the customer requests but typicly they dont want to pay the extra money for them
And well the pretty diagnostic lights i can add but realy they are kinda a waste of time since sol. malfunctions are so easy to track down on these ballys. esp using the Sol. test the number coil that dosnt fire is the bad one the same test you have to run to use the diagnostics lights on an altek board is only good if the problem is on the board itself.
I should have been more specific, Alltek boards are miles beyond Rottendog. In fact, I won't use Rottendog in any of my games as I have had the same experience you describe above. Some people like the cheaper alternative and don't mind troubleshooting them, though that is not for me. Thanks for the tip on Xenon and Medusa, I haven't run into it yet, but will keep my eyes open.
Short circuit protection is helpful if there is a coil with a dead short it won't take out any components on the SDB. Yes, it is easy to find problem coils and not hard to replace the parts on the board, either. Yet, this feature saved me plenty of time on location when coils shorted out as I didn't have to do any more work than necessary in a noisy, crowded bar. On an original SBD, that shorted coil would usually damage board components before the fuse would blow. I agree that some of the features don't matter as much to someone that understands how the game works and can troubleshoot on their own.
Yes Brian i agree fully Alltek boards are by far superior to the Rottendog boards that i consider cheap junk.
Also to mention there is a glitch with the altek mpu on fathom as well the green multiplier drop target timing gets out of whack periodicly with the altek mpu hanging up the ball.
If I were to replace boards alltek currently are the best replacements with the exception of the MPU glitches i would likely go with a 2 bits replacement MPU. i do have some alltek replacement MPU's and its how I noticed the glitches Vs. the original boards. and if you go with custom Roms for your machine you need a original style board.
I do socket important problem prone IC's for customers so it is alot easier to do repairs in the future if need be but typicly say a light driver alltek or original will blow a scr just as easy if a terminal is grounded. and Sol. control boards typicly dont blow a transistor unless something else is wrong or shorted anyway.
here are a couple examples of some rebuilt boards granted they have changed a bit over the years but have been pounded pretty good over the years with no problems and the medusa driver the tan board hasnt been fully rebuilt yet but does have the power supplys rebuilt.001-875.JPG002-190.JPG005-645.JPG016-57.JPG023.JPG
Quoted from btw75:I keep opening up this thread thinking that the posts are related to PMD's project!
Me, too.
Hey, I'm back
I stopped by the cabinet shop today to review some of the finer details (hole placements, tee nut locations, etc.). Here's a look at the cabinets as they sit. Yup, that's right.... I had 2 cabinets made, so one will be available for sale - soon
These cabinets are constructed out of high quality maple plywood, each with a 1/2" MDF floor board (much better than the original flimsy 1/4" floor panels). All of the corners are routed, fully glued dado/rabbit joints instead of simple lap joints. All joints and seams will be filled and sanded for a smooth exterior finish. The cabinets will be sanded to 220 grit and primed with grey primer. All of the backbox trim work will be done with maple wood.
That cabinet itself is as fine a work of art as Fathom itself, and I mean that in the best possible way.
Looking at that cabinet it makes me wonder why i waste all my time restoring the old ones lol. how much did they cost each?
For starters, I’m not looking to be a pinball cabinet supplier. I only had the 2nd cabinet made to help with the price point for my own restoration. I will sell the extra cabinet/backbox for $650. However, I still need to install some tee nuts and do some minor cosmetic touch ups. Obviously, a local buyer would be preferred as shipping will not be cheap.
Quoted from Hellfire:Looking at that cabinet it makes me wonder why i waste all my time restoring the old ones lol. how much did they cost each?
I used to restore my own cabinets. What I learned is that I really hate sanding and repairing cabinets It’s extremely time consuming and just not much fun, for me anyway. Plus, I just think a new cabinet is the better starting point for a quality restoration. Can you repair a beater? Of course, anything is possible with enough time and energy. However, I think your time would be better spent building a new cabinet (probably the same amount to work assuming you have the tools). I will say this, once you start going with new cabinets it’s hard to go back to repairing the originals
Quoted from Dawson:Good god !!!! Those are sic ? How much? Are you going to hinge the back box?
Holes for backbox hinges are there.
Really like your name. Really like this thread. Your work is amazing. Cant wait to see that fresh, sparkling new cabinet painted.
Quoted from PinballMikeD:I used to restore my own cabinets. What I learned is that I really hate sanding and repairing cabinets It’s extremely time consuming and just not much fun, for me anyway. Plus, I just think a new cabinet is the better starting point for a quality restoration. Can you repair a beater? Of course, anything is possible with enough time and energy. However, I think your time would be better spent building a new cabinet (probably the same amount to work assuming you have the tools). I will say this, once you start going with new cabinets it’s hard to go back to repairing the originals
Yeah I almost always restore the old cabinets but now i have some midway type cabinets with moisture damaged fibershit backs etc. thinking this might be a good thing to do instead or replacing sections all the time.
Nice upgrade using a 1/2" bottom nice upgrade!!
Quoted from Gryszzz:Really like your name. Really like this thread. Your work is amazing. Cant wait to see that fresh, sparkling new cabinet painted.
Well, thank you. I really like your complements
Today's a good day to build a new light board panel
The original one is on the left and the new one is on the right:
The new one is made of 5/8" melamine, so the exterior has a nice uniform finish (white veneer). Now it's time to get all of the light sockets holes drilled. In order to do this I'll need to remove all of the 555 light sockets from the original panel; this allows me to use the original board as a template.
De-soldering time
Here are my staple removing tools:
Alright, now we can clamp the old panel on top of the new one.
I decided to replace the original 555 sockets with newer 44 lamp sockets.
The original plastic 555 Bally sockets are larger, requiring 5/8" through holes in the panel. The new 44 bulb sockets are noticeably smaller, so I wanted to drill smaller through holes in the new light board - just looks better IMO.
1/2" hole vs. 5/8" hole
So, using a 5/8" brad tip drill bit as a punch give us a good center point for our new holes.
Melamine will easily chip when drilling, so punch both sides of the panel.
Now, using a 1/2" forstner bit we can start drilling holes. Note, don't drill all the way through the panel. Drill each hole roughly halfway on each side of the light board (this is why we punched both sides - chipping sucks).
The problem with a drill press is that you can't get the holes in the center section of the light board.
We'll have to do the rest by hand. One of these guys helps:
That's enough fun for one day
This is unreal. The amount of work you're putting into this has just about killed my hopes of ever 'restoring' a machine, because it could never live up to this. You are the man.
Quoted from mot:This is unreal. The amount of work you're putting into this has just about killed my hopes of ever 'restoring' a machine, because it could never live up to this. You are the man.
I appreciate the high praise, but there isn’t anything here you can’t do. It’s just a matter of how much time and money you’re willing to invest. Anybody can restore a pinball machine (if they really want to). Prior experience obviously helps, but everybody starts out in the same boat. We all have a “first” restoration project.
My intention for this thread was to share ideas and document what I do (not saying my approach is the “right” way or the “only” way, just the way I chose to do this particular game). I certainly don’t want to dissuade anyone from attempting to restore their own machines, quite the opposite. I think everyone should restore at least one of their machines and post the process here on PinSide. Then I’ll have more cool threads to read
For folks that are considering powder for their coil assemblies, here are a few pointers:
(1) Be ready to re-tap threaded screw holes. Yes, your powder guy can plug the holes, but sometimes the powder cakes up around the plugs during the baking process (so it's a trade off). I've found that I prefer to just re-tap threaded holes when doing two part power applications.
(2) Use heat tape on your coil stops. You want the coil sleeves to fit over the coil stops right As a side note, I like to deburr any mushroomed/flared coil stops (this is done on a grinding wheel prior to tumbling).
(3) Off topic, but worth noting - I've found that tumbling screws just isn't for me. Half the time I'm just not happy with the results. Plus, many of the screw heads are marked up and look used anyway, so tumbling gives me shiny used screws
I made the decision long ago that it was worth the extra $100 per restoration to just install new hardware (Maybe I'm crazy, but to each their own). I buy screws, nuts, washer, etc. in bulk. I work right next to a Fastenal and two other comparable stores, so it's pretty convenient to pick stuff up on my lunch break.
I used to stock up on all sorts of different 8-32 and 6-32 machine bolts (lengths = 3/8', 1/2, 5/8", 1", etc.). This got expensive pretty quickly. Then it dawned on me that I should just buy longer screws and trim them down to size.
This tool is good for zinc plated bolts. I have a better (more heavy duty) version for stainless steel bolts.
I just trim the bolts so the ends are flush with the back of the coil mounting plates they screw into. Here's a look at some of the coil assemblies being rebuilt (you can see where the holes have been re-tapped on the flipper brackets).
Back to work.
Quoted from PinballMikeD:Off topic, but worth noting - I've found that tumbling screws just isn't for me. Half the time I'm just not happy with the results. Plus, many of the screw heads are marked up and look used anyway, so tumbling gives me shiny used screws
I gave up quickly on tumbling screws. Didn't come out that well and I hate having to pick the grit out of the slot. Provided the screw is in good shape I just hold them with a needle nose plier and a couple seconds on the buffer and they shine like chrome.
Quoted from Mamushka:Wow, the blue looks real nice. I imagine that pinball dust cleans off of powder coat easy?
Break dust can be cleaned off of powdered car rims, solenoid dust is the pinball equivalent (as long as the powder has a clear top coat).
Quoted from HPR:Blue color is superb, very nice customization !
Thanks. They look better in person it's hard to see the metallic flakes in the pictures.
This is really nice work. I am going to restoring my Fathom with a new CPR playfield here in the next few weeks. I am not looking at putting this much time into the game but I understand if someone is.
Just amazing work as usual, Mike! I can't wait to see this in person when it's done.. I'd be willing to make a special trip just to see it.
Quoted from Freeplay40:I gave up quickly on tumbling screws. Didn't come out that well and I hate having to pick the grit out of the slot. Provided the screw is in good shape I just hold them with a needle nose plier and a couple seconds on the buffer and they shine like chrome.
Too funny, I've been there. Checkout these buffed zinc acorn nuts
Quoted from Gatecrasher:On your Centaur, were the rails stapled or screwed on?
When you see the rails painted on all sides, that's an indication that the playfield has been replaced.
99% of the time when you see them painted on all sides, the rails are screwed on rather than stapled. That's the other indication of a playfield replacement.
From the factory, none were painted on all sides and all were stapled.
I am not convinced on this one. After restoring 100's of games; I have seen many different variations and you can tell from the factory sometimes I think it depended on the day. I agree all should have staples but I have seen where you will have staples and then screws in the same field on games that I don't think ever had the playfield replaced. Interesting topic though.
Quoted from Khabbi:Just amazing work as usual, Mike! I can't wait to see this in person when it's done.. I'd be willing to make a special trip just to see it.
You know you're always welcome. Feel free to bring that LOTR LE with you
Quoted from PinballMikeD:Too funny, I've been there. Checkout these buffed zinc acorn nuts
centaur.png 1.4 MB
Very Nice... OK, as soon as the NW Pinball Show is done, need to get off my butt and get the new Centaur playfield in. Spent the last couple months making clear ramps for High Speed.
Back to the lighting panel....
Time to install new ground braid wire. To do this Captain Obvious will need his staple gun - hey, it never hurts to be detailed, some folks have never done this I bought my pneumatic staple gun from PinRestore, here's the link:
http://www.pinrestore.com/Tools.html
If you are going to use melamine for your lighting panel, make sure to test your staple gun on some scrape pieces. You don't want to set the air pressure too high as this could create a "chipping" scenario. I found 90 psi worked pretty well.
Here's a closer look:
Everything's all soldered up and tested out with a multimeter. So, I'm almost done with this part of the project, just have to install the trim
Quoted from mof:What's the melamine edging for?
-mof
The four sides of the panel. I'll probably just paint the inside areas of the display cutouts.
trim work.pngNobody is perfect, not even my cabinet guy
Time for a little alteration work.
Oops... Now I've got a hole in the top of my back box........
Just kidding, but now the back box's lock bar will fit correctly (after drilling the other side as well).
Of course, the lock bar doesn't do much good unless the lock is installed and I've found It's hard to put a 5/8" diameter object in a 1/2" hole
All done......
Here's a closer look:
With the first coat of primer on, now it's time to fill in any remaining joints/seams. I want the cabinet and back box to look like one piece of wood, hence the extra work.
Here's what I use for this application:
Your name doesn't have to be McCune to like Festool sanders
Although, I have to give Jim credit for promoting their equipment - thanks for the heads up, these tools are fantastic.
If you're going to repair/restore cabinets (or make your repro perfect) then Festool is the way to go. Everybody knows the secret to a good paint job is the prep work. So, we're going to sand with 220 grit paper until the wood is perfectly smooth.
Here's a look after some sanding:
Time for another coat of primer. You gotta love cabinet work. Ugh.......
Could you take another one picture of the big lock bar ? Are you going to fill the seems of the outside trim that's around the back box?
Dude amazing work , festool. Insane expensive tools but you are right they are the best of the best
Can't wait to see more
Quoted from Dawson:Could you take another one picture of the big lock bar ? Are you going to fill the seems of the outside trim that's around the back box?
Dude amazing work , festool. Insane expensive tools but you are right they are the best of the best
Can't wait to see more
I'll fill all the seams before painting, might as well go all the way right
What are you looking for in the lock bar picture, so I know what to shoot a picture of?
Quoted from PinballMikeD:With the first coat of primer on, now it's time to fill in any remaining joints/seams. I want the cabinet and back box to look like one piece of wood, hence the extra work.
Here's what I use for this application:
Your name doesn't have to be McCune to like Festool sanders
Although, I have to give Jim credit for promoting their equipment - thanks for the heads up, these tools are fantastic.If you're going to repair/restore cabinets (or make your repro perfect) then Festool is the way to go. Everybody knows the secret to a good paint job is the prep work. So, we're going to sand with 220 grit paper until the wood is perfectly smooth.
Here's a look after some sanding:
Time for another coat of primer. You gotta love cabinet work. Ugh.......
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Mike, One thing I was thinking about. The current back box on a Bally has this lip on the back of the head. If you look at when a head is aligned on the cabinet it actually fits right at the edge of the lower cabinet. so if you remove the lip as is you will have a lip when the head is on the game with the bottom cabinet.
make sense or do you leave the width the same size and change the inside wood ? Seems like alot of work or do you add a piece that fits into the gap of the head with the cut outs of the air hatch.?
Bill
I have an extra reproduction Fathom backglass, which I would gladly sell, since I traded my Fathom last year. I have a nearly complete repro plastic set as well for Fathom, which I no longer need. -----Bruce
Quoted from PinballMikeD:These were printed on blue 3M painters tape, should look slick on all the powder coated coil brackets
F'ing brill.
-mof
Time to start tumbling the parts I didn't have powdered or plated. I use the larger 5 gallon HF tumbler; it works like a champ (for me anyway). Before tumbling I clean all the parts with my ultrasonic cleaner, using a 50/50 mixture of H2O and degreaser.
Then I dry the parts off and through them in the tumbler. I prefer walnut shell media with Flitz, just seems to produce the best results IMO. I've tried many different polishing medias and compounds and this combo is my favorite.
Here's a Before and After example:
I finally started putting the drop targets back together. Here are some progress pics:
55.png
56.png
Above you can see the subtle metallic flakes in the blue powder coating
57.png
It's nice to see the culmination of many hours worth of work (painting screws, cleaning/re-wrapping coils, tumbling parts, sand blasting, etc.) Here are a few close up pics to showoff some of the finer details:
Gloss black painted screws:
59.png
Nickle plated target fingers:
60.png
Oh well, back to work.......
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