(Topic ID: 246801)

Please help STNNG - Gnd Short Row 1 is stuck closed + problems


By ANTHONYROWAN

8 days ago



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  • Latest reply 5 days ago by Pin_Guy
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#1 8 days ago

Hi

Hoping someone can help .

On start everything else lights up , display works perfect , and games appears ready to start as normal.

My STTNG machine is coming up on startup as " Gnd Short Row 1 is stuck closed ", it then proceeds to shoot 3 balls into the ball lane , and then one of the two cannon mechs will randomly start to rotate and then return to the wrong position.

Another problem I now find is that the control buttons inside the key door don't respond at all,so cant go to any menus etc . and the start button will not start game - no response at all either.

I notice that the board inside the back box on the left had the red light at D19 was OFF , The red light at D20 was blinking on and off and the red light at I presume would be D21 was on solid red continually.

Of course as is the usual story with everyone - everything before this happened the machine was working perfect.

I am a novice of the highest order so any simple instructions/ photos on what I can do or places to check etc would be of great assistance and thanks to anyone in advance .

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#2 8 days ago

Is there any leaking battery damage to the board?

#3 8 days ago

If you lift the playfield forward on the service rails and power cycle while the playfield is raised partially and the rails are resting on the lockdown bar area does the error persist?

Did you check all the fuses out of the holders with a multimeter?

Also, can you take good pictures of the boards in the backbox?

#4 8 days ago

12V regulated is missing

#5 8 days ago

I had the same problem on my STTNG. I had ground shorts rows 1,2 and 7. I tracked all the rows to the trough board. I replaced the trough boards and the problem was fixed. I’m pretty sure it was the receiving board, not the LED sending board. Also, the cannons would rotate and be unable to find home. Now the cannons work fine.

#6 8 days ago

You might just try unplugging and replugging the trough boards

#8 8 days ago

Ok guys thanks heaps - any more suggestions welcome - keep em coming - I will try those things suggested first thing tomorrow morning and let you know how I go. Thanks

#9 8 days ago

Do you have a multimeter to test with? I ask since the LED being on, will not guarantee the voltage is in the correct operating range.

#10 8 days ago
Quoted from zaza:

12V regulated is missing

Almost a guaranty, and could be as simple as a blown F115 fuse; however, even though you didn't mention it, you may also find you have no working controlled lamps and just didn't notice it...this would mean you have no +18V AND no +12VR which would be F114 as the +12VR is derived from the +18V source.

#11 7 days ago

Hi Guys ,
T
hanks so much for your help I went and checked those things and have discovered sure enough that the F114 fuse is indeed blown. F115 seemed fine and intact (See pics) , I removed F114 and am now wondering what is the next course of action , surely cant be just as simple as replace this fuse and we all good ?? ( or is it ??) I presume something made the fuse blow , so where do I go from here, or is there a chance if I replace the fuse and we all good ?
What sort of things make the F114 fuse blow?

Also I'm trying to read the fuse and it says ( I Think ) 8A 32V 311 , is that correct so I can look for somewhere that sells them and go and buy one .

Let me know what to do from here obviously I need a new fuse to put back and I will get that , but anything else ?

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#12 7 days ago
Quoted from ANTHONYROWAN:

Hi Guys ,
T
hanks so much for your help I went and checked those things and have discovered sure enough that the F114 fuse is indeed blown. F115 seemed fine and intact (See pics) , I removed F114 and am now wondering what is the next course of action , surely cant be just as simple as replace this fuse and we all good ?? ( or is it ??) I presume something made the fuse blow , so where do I go from here, or is there a chance if I replace the fuse and we all good ?
What sort of things make the F114 fuse blow?
Also I'm trying to read the fuse and it says ( I Think ) 8A 32V 311 , is that correct so I can look for somewhere that sells them and go and buy one .
Let me know what to do from here obviously I need a new fuse to put back and I will get that , but anything else ?[quoted image][quoted image]

Yep, it's worth a shot. The fuse may just have hit it's end of life and blown.

F114 is 8A, 32V, Normal Blow (as opposed to slow blow or quick blow). Get at least a 5 pack so you have more in case the new one blows immediately and there's another problem.

#13 7 days ago

Here is some more pics of the boards doesn't appear to be any corrosion etc they all look like new to me?? , last pic is with fuse F114 that has blown removed.

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#14 7 days ago

If F114 is blowing on startup, BR1 is probably toast. Only way to know for sure is to pull the board and test using a multimeter on diode/continuity mode.

Pinwiki has an excellent write up on how to test. BR1 has 4 legs, 3 in a perfect square and one "off" leg. You set the multimeter to diode/audible continuity mode, put the black lead on the "off" leg, and put the red lead on either adjacent leg (either of the 2 legs that are not directly diagonal to the leg with the black lead on it). You should get a volt reading of 0.450 to 0.70. If you get nearly 0.0V, BR1 is now a direct short and has gone bad.

#15 7 days ago
Quoted from NPO:

If F114 is blowing on startup, BR1 is probably toast. Only way to know for sure is to pull the board and test using a multimeter on diode/continuity mode.
Pinwiki has an excellent write up on how to test. BR1 has 4 legs, 3 in a perfect square and one "off" leg. You set the multimeter to diode/audible co tinuity mode, put the black lead on the "off" leg, and put the red lead on either adjacent leg (2 of the 3 legs that are not directly diagonal to the leg with the black lead on it). You should get a volt reading g of 0.450 to 0.70. If you get nearly 0.0V, BR1 is now a direct short and has gone bad.

Ok we going way past my skill set here but unbelievably I am actually half understanding and learning things as I read up on these things you are suggesting,
The BR is the bridge rectifier - yes ? and is that located under the long metal cover seen in the photo above and is there two bridge rectifiers under there , you say it will probably be BR1 but there are two BR under that metal plate correct , but is it most likely the BR1 when this happens ???

Now to do the test you are saying I need to somehow remove that board from the backbox , I presume it is just unscrewing screws that hold it to the backbox (I will have a look in the morning when I get stuck into this ), and unplug any connectors and try and remember where they go when I put it back I will take lots of pictures so I remember where they go , and then the points I need to put the multi meter on are on the back side of the board - correct so far ???

I will await further instruction and will also go to the shop tomorrow and purchase a couple of fuses for the F114 , I am tempted to just put one in and see what happens as suggested by the first poster but will attempt to remove board and do the test suggested by NPO , this is really going to get me into the repair business LOL LOL !!!

If the Bridge rectifier is the problem from what I am beginning to read that is something I will probably have to hand over to a bit more skilled person to fix is that correct , looks like a bit of paste soldering etc involved ???

#16 7 days ago
Quoted from ANTHONYROWAN:

Now to do the test you are saying I need to somehow remove that board from the backbox , I presume it is just unscrewing screws

No need to take the board out of the machine.
If you have a multimeter, this is a way to test it :

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sttng-post-playfield-swap-issues#post-2475440

#17 7 days ago

I would just try replacing the Fuse, power it on and see what happens. I've had several fuses blow, that i just changed, and the machine went on happily for several years. But if it blows again immediately on power up or shortly after, you should definitely look in to BR1.

#18 6 days ago

Ok , I went and bought 3 fuses and put one in the F114 and watched it flash and blow ( 2 fuses left to use ) . So no good with the easy way out !!

Will now attempt to test the BR1 with my limited work with as multi meter but will follow instructions as pointed out to me by you guys on here - thanks and will report back later .

#19 6 days ago
Quoted from zaza:

No need to take the board out of the machine.
If you have a multimeter, this is a way to test it :
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sttng-post-playfield-swap-issues#post-2475440

Ok , I went and removed the J 101 plug and did the test with the multimeter and the results were nothing like 460mV as in the diagrams and instructions

I was getting random numbers flashing up

For all tests in the diagrams I got random numbers flashing from the multi-meter never stopping in one spot just continual changing of numbers high and low for all testing -
Test 1 was like - 200- 190 -220 - 100
Test 2 - 800 -900- 1000 -1300
Test 3 - 900-1200-1100
Test 4 800 -1300 -1200

All random numbers changing all the time up down high and low and anywhere in-between , at no time did it stay on one reading or a constant reading of anything or anywhere near 460 MV.????

What does all this mean ?? What do I do now ?

#20 6 days ago
Quoted from ANTHONYROWAN:

What does all this mean ?? What do I do now ?

Not the numbers that were expected. Could be an issue with the multimeter. Empty battery or are the leads swapped ?
What is to say about these measurements is that Test 1 is very different than the other 3 tests.
Note, there are 2 large capacitors in this circuit so there are no clean readings of the rectifier.

Try to measure this bridge rectifier with another multimeter.

Replace the bridge rectifier only if you have experience with this kind of boards

#21 6 days ago

I will get another multi-meter as the one I was using is extremely old and hasn't been used in years , you may be right may not be working properly will go and get a new one tomorrow and run the checks again.

If it is a bridge rectifier what is the cause of the failure of this is it common to this board/machine , ie is it old age of the bridge rectifiers or will there still be more problems even when they are replaced ?? and also what sort of cost am I looking at to get it repaired if it is the bridge rectifiers ?

Thanks to everyone so far and to you zaza I really appreciate it.

#22 6 days ago
Quoted from ANTHONYROWAN:

I will get another multi-meter as the one I was using is extremely old and hasn't been used in years , you may be right may not be working properly will go and get a new one tomorrow and run the checks again.
If it is a bridge rectifier what is the cause of the failure of this is it common to this board/machine , ie is it old age of the bridge rectifiers or will there still be more problems even when they are replaced ?? and also what sort of cost am I looking at to get it repaired if it is the bridge rectifiers ?
Thanks to everyone so far and to you zaza I really appreciate it.

If you do it yourself, probably about $15 in parts/shipping and your labor if you're in the US. No idea what the costs are in Europe. If the rectifier shorted out, then replacing it should be the end of it.

#23 6 days ago

The rectifier is failing due to aging/heat. This one is under a heatsink for its heavy duty.

The costs to repair is difficult to say.
Could be something between 30 and 70 euro/dollar when done by a professional.

When you decide to do the repair yourself, don't forget the thermal paste between heatsink and rectifier.

#24 6 days ago

Hi Guys thanks again I am in Australia. Also this is the crappy multi meter I have been using can you confirm what setting it should be on when I am reading the J101 area for testing the bridge rectifiers.

I just tried again and had it on this setting on the multimeter , is this the correct one or which one should i have it dialed around to ( see pic ) ?

With this setting I got

Test 1 - 30- 100-40 -10 ??
Test 2 - 740
Test 3 - 688
Test 4 - 720

I think the meter may be stuffed , I replaced the batteries as well but it swings all over the place with the numbers and the last three results settled around those numbers but the first one still went up and down from 0 - 100 to 200 back to 40 etc never really stopped on anything.

Ill wait to hear back and head out and get a new multi meter in the morning as that seems it may be problem also ?????

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#25 6 days ago

The setting on the multimeter is correct although I doubt that it can measure a voltage drop rather than resistance.

But again, test 1 looks very different from the other measurements so it is pointing to a shorted segment inside the bridge rectifier.

#26 6 days ago

Ok thanks Zaza , I will go in the morning and buy a proper up to date digital multimeter and do the tests again to make sure. It will be good to have one I know works and is reliable anyway for future use as well . Now I'm getting into the insides of the machine and learning different parts , it's starting to not get as intimidating , so thanks for your help.

#27 6 days ago
Quoted from zaza:

No need to take the board out of the machine.
If you have a multimeter, this is a way to test it :
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sttng-post-playfield-swap-issues#post-2475440

Haha!!! I knew I could get you to post another one of your insanely awesome diagrams!!!

#28 6 days ago

Looks like I had some spare time a few years ago

#29 6 days ago
Quoted from ANTHONYROWAN:

I am in Australia.

If you're in the Sydney metropolitan area I am headed to visit family in the weeks coming and can help you if the BR needs replacing and you're uncomfortable doing it. I also have parts if they are not easily available either from online retailers or Jaycar.

#30 5 days ago

Ok guys , Good news is I'm back from buying a new multi meter which is way better and actually works !!!

Bad news is these are the new accurate readings from the 4 tests that Zaza kindly suggested ! ( thanks so much for the clear instructions Zaza)

Test 1 - 000
Test 2 - 633
Test 3 - 595
Test 4 - 611

I presume that this means I need to replace the bridge rectifiers , do I need to replace one or both or ???

Thanks also for your kind offer, that is so nice to offer DumbAss, but I am in Melbourne.

Let me know where I go from here and what parts exactly will I will need to fix the bridge rectifier / rectifiers , etc is it a hard process , what types of bridge rectifiers should I be buying model number / specifications etc.

I really appreciate it , should I tackle it myself ( if I do I may start to actually believe I can repair my machines, I'm actually enjoying getting in there and looking at the different parts and what makes it work !!!) or do you think it is to difficult and better of handing over to expert that way I wont blow everything up , lol ?

multi1 (resized).jpg
#31 5 days ago
Quoted from ANTHONYROWAN:

Ok guys , Good news is I'm back from buying a new multi meter which is way better and actually works !!!
Bad news is these are the new accurate readings from the 4 tests that Zaza kindly suggested ! ( thanks so much for the clear instructions Zaza)
Test 1 - 000
Test 2 - 633
Test 3 - 595
Test 4 - 611
I presume that this means I need to replace the bridge rectifiers , do I need to replace one or both or ???
Thanks also for your kind offer, that is so nice to offer DumbAss, but I am in Melbourne.
Let me know where I go from here and what parts exactly will I will need to fix the bridge rectifier / rectifiers , etc is it a hard process , what types of bridge rectifiers should I be buying model number / specifications etc.
I really appreciate it , should I tackle it myself ( if I do I may start to actually believe I can repair my machines, I'm actually enjoying getting in there and looking at the different parts and what makes it work !!!) or do you think it is to difficult and better of handing over to expert that way I wont blow everything up , lol ?[quoted image]

If you're comfortable with soldering, it's really not that hard to replace the BR. Just make sure you use thermal paste when you bolt it back on to the heatsink and leave a nice gap between the BR and the board for cooling.

Before you take the power driver board out, just photograph the board clearly all the way around so you know where all the connectors go when you put it back together.

There's a short writeup on replacing BR and BR2 (at once, as long as you're in there and they're connected by the heatsink) here:
http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC

Go to section "6.16.15 Failed Bridge Rectifier"

Pinball parts Australia has bridge rectifiers:
https://www.pinballspareparts.com.au/catalogsearch/result/?q=bridge+rectifier

#32 5 days ago

Those readings are more like it. There is indeed a short inside the bridge rectifier

Only bridge rectifier BR.1 needs to be replaced.

KBPC3510W, Bridge Rectifier, 35A 1000V, 4-Pin

#33 5 days ago

Mr Pinball Australia also has them

for $30 we can fit and test it on a Williams Bally Test Bench

#34 5 days ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

Mr Pinball Australia also has them

for $30 we can fit and test it on a Williams Bally Test Bench

Ding ding ding .... Winner

#35 5 days ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

Mr Pinball Australia also has them
for $30 we can fit and test it on a Williams Bally Test Bench

Ok great , I will take you up the offer Mr Pinball and will bring it in early next week that will be great !! Thanks heaps.

Also you are a champ Zaza , I feel a bit guilty after all your excellent help ,by not going ahead and fixing it myself !! LOL

Much appreciated you've given me much more confidence now to explore other little problems on my other machines, so don't be surprised if another few questions get posted up in the coming weeks lol !!

The best thing about it is the problem was diagnosed and now I know what needed to be fixed, which is half the battle , and now with that offer of $30 , I will go and get it fixed early next week. That way I know it will be done properly and tested , ready to put back into my machine.

You were spot on from your very first post about what the problem may be ,so great work !!

Thanks heaps everyone on the forum here who helped I really ,really do appreciate it !!

#36 5 days ago
Quoted from ANTHONYROWAN:

don't be surprised if another few questions get posted up in the coming weeks

No problem and glad to help !

#37 5 days ago
Quoted from ANTHONYROWAN:

Also you are a champ Zaza , I feel a bit guilty after all your excellent help ,by not going ahead and fixing it myself !! LOL

Knowing Zaza a little he is just glad you get your machine going, and the repairs get done profesionaly

#38 5 days ago
Quoted from ANTHONYROWAN:

I presume that this means I need to replace the bridge rectifiers , do I need to replace one or both or ???

Since this is on a shared heatsink with BR2, have your repair guy replace both BR1 and BR2, the replacements will have better specs and IMO there is no reason to not replace them both; it will take your repair guy longer to clean the old thermal compound from BR2 than it will take to just replace it, and as a board repair guy, I can almost guarantee he would rather replace them both together.

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