(Topic ID: 298019)

Please help a total newbie (me) restore a 1985 Williams Sorcerer!

By Thoughtfulsardin

2 years ago


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#1 2 years ago

I have been dreaming about buying my first pin for about 10 years now and FINALLY made it happen with what may be my least-regretted purchase of all time; a 1985 System 9 Williams Sorcerer! I had a very good interaction with the seller (shoutout to Ken from Northeast Pinball) and grabbed the game in what I would call 'good' player's condition for $2k. Everything worked out of the gate and I played it for a solid 3 weeks with little sleep before pulling the flipper assemblies and forcing myself into a restore. I am absolutely in love with the game.

Why did I pull it off my basement floor instead of leaving it be?

1). I want to outfit the machine with new rubbers, posts, bulbs (LEDs and incandescent flashers), cliffy return guides (the right stock guide on this game causes a hop) etc.. I also want to rebuild the flippers, re-sticker the targets, install new flipper buttons / switches /etc. At this point, it almost makes sense to install all new pops and slings, so I figure I should do that as well. At this point, we're pulling the game.

2.) I may seem like I know what I'm talking about, but I really do not. I am BRAND NEW at the nuts and bolts of this hobby and have been diving in (thanks primarily to Pinside) for about 2 months now to learn as much as possible. I realize I could sit idly and play the game as is, but I truly want to get my hands dirty and learn how to work on pins. This will not be my last machine.

3.) I anticipate there are maybe 500 or so Sorcerers left in the wild and would like to know with confidence that mine is one of the nicest. (NOTE: I am not interested in a 100% true to original restore and instead would like to inject some ((TASTEFUL)) personality/updates into the game).

4.) IMPORTANT: I don't have time to be constantly playing pinball right now

So! That is all a long way of saying that I am ready to do a deep dive with this and am very much in need of your collective help. I am giving myself an arbitrary deadline of 60 days or so to do the work and am in no rush; it's important to me that I do this right and learn as much as possible as I go along. I also don't want to get electrocuted.

Here's a rough sketch of what I'm planning to do after I build Skypilots' rotisserie this weekend:

- [ ] Strip playfield top
- [ ] Remove flipper / pop / sling assemblies
- [ ] Remove / Paint Side rails
- [ ] Clean hardware & plastics
- [ ] Clean playfield (Nova / ISO)
- [ ] Check playfield for issues (note/repair)
- [ ] Wax playfield
- [ ] Install new posts & rubbers
- [ ] Install new LED & bulbs
- [ ] Install new cliffy rails
- [ ] Replace hardware & plastics (including shooter rod & assembly)
- [ ] Cut/install mirror blades
- [ ] Clean cabinet inside
- [ ] Replace cabinet switches / buttons
- [ ] Repair / touch-up cabinet wood (veneer interior base ((note: I have a ton of leftover veneer from a project and the interior of the cab is a bit stained...thoughts?)))
- [ ] Replace side rails
- [ ] REPLACE/RE-SOLDIER FLIPPERS / POPS / SLINGS
- [ ] Install mods (pin stadium, underneath light, backbox light, speaker kit)

Again, this is just a rough outline of what I feel I need to do to get the game to where I want it to be, and it doesn't really even involve any playfield touch-up work; I really don't know if that's something that I should be taking on quite yet. That said, does it make no sense to go this far and leave out a total touch-up/clearcoat job? I wish I could afford a CPR playfield right now, but I have already sunk way too much money into this game (I have 99% of the materials listed above on-hand and ready to go, including the mod kits).

I have attached a handful of pics for reference. My questions are as follows:

A) How does this look in terms of a list of priorities? What, if anything, am I leaving out?
B) What is the "order of operations" for doing this work? IE: are there things that MUST be done first or last, etc.?
C) What steps can I take in order to ensure that I make no costly/foolish mistakes? I plan on taking photos before/during/after every move. What else?
D) I am brand new to electrical work in general and soldering. What can I do to prepare myself from a learning standpoint to succeed here?
E) Is there anything that I absolutely cannot do at home with a rotisserie and the right tools?
F) Any last comments/thoughts/input? Want to come to Maine and help with this????

That should about do it for now. I plan on keeping this thread updated for my own reference, so feel free to grab some popcorn and learn from my (hopefully not detrimental) mistakes.

Most importantly, thank you all!
--
Erik

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(note: last pic includes some LED experiments and is not settled on)

#2 2 years ago

At least for me, and I still am not very good at any of this, these are the guidelines I follow:
-I never do more than one thing at once. Too many variables = problems that are hard for novices to solve on their own or get help solving.
-After I complete the single thing, I return the game to operation and play it a bit to make sure it feels right.
-Lay out all the tools and parts for any job ahead of time
-Watch at least one other person do the thing on youtube or as part of a thread. Take physical notes.
-Take pictures, lots of them, before disturbing anything. Work on stuff that has a mirror part on the other side first.
-Anything that has to get soldered, practice on a roasted component outside the machine if you have one.
-Practice soldering in general on random components on a bench.

As far as your machine, if it was me, I would probably replace all the rubber, bulbs, balls, cliffys to stop ball hop, clean the play field and then play more. Then as something specific bothers you, target that for a fix or improvement.

If you know what bulbs and rings you want, all the better. If not, order a few different types of white LEDs from comet, a couple of titan silicone rights a couple standard white rings and then figure out which ones you like before you buy the whole whack.

Good luck with your game, I'm looking forward to updates.

#3 2 years ago
Quoted from jjga:

At least for me, and I still am not very good at any of this, these are the guidelines I follow:
-I never do more than one thing at once. Too many variables = problems that are hard for novices to solve on their own or get help solving.
-After I complete the single thing, I return the game to operation and play it a bit to make sure it feels right.
-Lay out all the tools and parts for any job ahead of time
-Watch at least one other person do the thing on youtube or as part of a thread. Take physical notes.
-Take pictures, lots of them, before disturbing anything. Work on stuff that has a mirror part on the other side first.
-Anything that has to get soldered, practice on a roasted component outside the machine if you have one.
-Practice soldering in general on random components on a bench.
As far as your machine, if it was me, I would probably replace all the rubber, bulbs, balls, cliffys to stop ball hop, clean the play field and then play more. Then as something specific bothers you, target that for a fix or improvement.
If you know what bulbs and rings you want, all the better. If not, order a few different types of white LEDs from comet, a couple of titan silicone rights a couple standard white rings and then figure out which ones you like before you buy the whole whack.
Good luck with your game, I'm looking forward to updates.

This is great advice. I agree with not tackling more than one thing at a time. It's easy to lose track of what you might have done to cause a new issue.

#4 2 years ago

Wow, some fast and great advice already this morning!

2 quick notes:

* I have all of the bulbs and rubbers I need ready to go after a few trial and error rounds lol (NG leds from comet mostly, titan rubbers)
* I may have been overzealous in clipping the dual flipper assembly wires, but that would be the #1 pre-requisite fix before I can get the game going again. Also the one I'm the most nervous about screwing up.
--
Erik

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from Thoughtfulsardin:

Wow, some fast and great advice already this morning!
2 quick notes:
* I have all of the bulbs and rubbers I need ready to go after a few trial and error rounds lol (NG leds from comet mostly, titan rubbers)
* I may have been overzealous in clipping the dual flipper assembly wires, but that would be the #1 pre-requisite fix before I can get the game going again. Also the one I'm the most nervous about screwing up.
--
Erik

You clipped the wires? You should have desoldered them! They get really short very fast! Then you have to replace the wire if you start cutting it too short!

#6 2 years ago
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

You clipped the wires? You should have desoldered them! They get really short very fast! Then you have to replace the wire if you start cutting it too short!

I clipped them at the connectors so I didn’t lose any real length, but I am also not opposed to re-wiring and was planning on taking that route.

Nevertheless, clearly I have already messed up and should stop while I’m ahead :p I will take this as a sign to slow down. Truth be told, I don’t even know how to desolder yet. This is where the nerves lay.

I do know that I’m capable and ready to learn, though.

#7 2 years ago

Just picked up a Sorcer at Allentown, but it is not my first pin.

You have plenty on your list to do, but I think you are putting too much work in there you don't necessarily need. Nothing you have mentioned doing warrants a rotisserie. However, if you are going to completely strip it bare, you might as well do a hardtop. Look into outside edge hardtops as an option if you want a perfect playfield.

With that said, I would recommend doing this in stages as you only have one pin. Rebuild the flippers first, play a few games, then do your bulbs and rubbers. You can do these at the same time. I'd start with the G.I. lighting (the stuff on top of the playfield). There are many different types of LED bulbs. I personally recommend 2SMD LEDs from COMET. Take care picking out the proper color white to your taste https://www.cometpinball.com/pages/choosing-white-color-for-my-pinball-machine. As you do this, clean both sides of the plastics, and clean everywhere you can over the playfield.

I would also recommend look at color matching your inserts, but be careful with colored GI https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/no-rainbow-puke-club-post-pics-of-worst-color-gi-fails

New post sleeves are often enough to get new VUKs, pop bumpers, and sometimes even flippers working like new.

If you plan on doing lots of restores and/or have the parts around, look into a media tumbler or an ultrasonic cleaner for the metal parts.

If you need pictures of anything to compare against, feel free to ask and pinsiders are great at helping at these things.

Finally, have fun!

#8 2 years ago

Best tip:
Take pictures lots and lots of pictures by sections and angles before beginning, during taredown etc.
If you think you took enough pictures:... take some more pictures!
And then some

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from Thoughtfulsardin:

Truth be told, I don’t even know how to desolder yet.

Don't learn on the real thing

Get a junk computer board or something like that and practice, practice, practice until you're confident that you can solder and de-solder.

#10 2 years ago

I appreciate your enthusiasm but I wouldn’t veneer the bottom. That would look out of place. Sand it with 220 grit sandpaper. It should clean up nicely. I’m also not a fan of mirrored blades on a vintage title. I think you are better off leaving them black. Most of the scuffs on the top and rear of the backbox can be touched up with some semi gloss black spray paint. Your game is in good shape so it should come out great when done. Good luck with your project.

#11 2 years ago
Quoted from Mad_Dog_Coin_Op:

I appreciate your enthusiasm but I wouldn’t veneer the bottom. That would look out of place. Sand it with 220 grit sandpaper. It should clean up nicely. I’m also not a fan of mirrored blades on a vintage title. I think you are better off leaving them black. Most of the scuffs on the top and rear of the backbox can be touched up with some semi gloss black spray paint. Your game is in good shape so it should come out great when done. Good luck with your project.

Thank you for this ledge-talk, as the veneer idea was very much inspired by a stronger than average dose of edibles. Mirror blades also were pipe-dreamish and wholly optional; I hear you on the vintage-quality. What can I do to make the black sides really "pop," in that case?

Okay if I still paint the metal side rails (and playfield glass backing rail) a sexy matte black?

#12 2 years ago

Question also re: sanding the inside (or any) of the cabinet: What do I have to worry about in terms of lead paint / dust exposure? I am a bit of a hyper-hypo when it comes to this kinda stuff and tend to stick to "green" solutions whenever possible....

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from Thoughtfulsardin:

Question also re: sanding the inside (or any) of the cabinet: What do I have to worry about in terms of lead paint / dust exposure? I am a bit of a hyper-hypo when it comes to this kinda stuff and tend to stick to "green" solutions whenever possible....

Sanding will make a huge mess no matter what you do. If you are paranoid, you can buy a cheap set of lead paint test strips at Home Depot for about $8. I tested all of my machines going back to 1980 at the time and found no lead paint in any of it. With that said, you can buy an orbital sander with an attachment for a vacuum hose fairly cheaply, especially if you go used. That combined with your COVID mask should keep you more than safe.

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from Thoughtfulsardin:

Okay if I still paint the metal side rails (and playfield glass backing rail) a sexy matte black?

Sure but powdercoat. Side rails are a high touch surface and paint doesn’t hold up well. You could just polish your stainless. A nice finish really pops on classic games.

#15 2 years ago

Writing this from Fore St on vacation:

How rich are you? If you are looking for a very nice game, buy a CPR reproduction playfield.

But otherwise, just replace the rubber rings, rebuild the flippers, slings and pop bumper mechs, and replace the bulbs. Make some pinball friends and have them over for beers and they can help you. Don’t cut any wires. Do one small thing at a time. If you try to do everything at once then you end up with a mess of parts and a ton of frustration.

Seriously though lots of amazing collectors in Maine. Make friends with them.

#16 2 years ago

Unless your repainting the cabinet with stencils and putting in a new playfield, don’t use the word restore. People throw that word around and in the end all they do is a a full shop job. Congrats on your purchase. Likes to be in good shape. Enjoy it!

#17 2 years ago
Quoted from BallyKISS1978:

Unless your repainting the cabinet with stencils and putting in a new playfield, don’t use the word restore. People throw that word around and in the end all they do is a a full shop job. Congrats on your purchase. Likes to be in good shape. Enjoy it!

Noted; it felt a bit presumptuous a term for what I'm looking to do.

Hows about we say I'd like to tits up its ritz real real good and just leave it at that?

(also as a side note, I'm not opposed to building a new cabinet for the game and doing a stencil/paint at some point. I typically limit my woodworking to carving spoons, but what's a pinball cab if not a giant spoon?)

#18 2 years ago

I glanced and did not see this mentioned:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guides-collected

Vids guides are primarily what I used to learn about restorations.

Read them, learn them, do them.

#19 2 years ago

I would just play the hell out of it until a Hardtop becomes available and then do that install.

#20 2 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

I would just play the hell out of it until a Hardtop becomes available and then do that install.

The further I get into this, the more it seems to make sense to go with a full gold CPR swap at the end. I feel like going with a hard top after doing all this work would be maybe a bit anticlimactic.

#21 2 years ago

If you are going all in get the new playfield and sell the old one. Hardtops are a lot of work and don't look as good as the real thing. Personaly I would never install a hardtop if a repro playfield was available.

#22 2 years ago

I think one of the biggest problems a newbie can make is diving into a project before they are really ready. You're probably eager to get started but there are some basics you should realize first.

Tip #1: PHOTOS, PHOTOS & MORE PHOTOS! Tons of photos before you start tearing into it. Topside, underside, cabinet, every mech, every board, all the wiring, wide shots, close shots, different angles, etc. This cannot be stressed enough. They will be your frame of reference when putting everything back together months from now, when you've forgotten exactly where certain things go. Literally take hundreds & hundreds of photos.

Tip #2: Read, read, and then read some more! Then read some more! Read the entire Sorcerers Club thread for ideas & tips. Read the entire pinwiki page on Williams System 9 games. Pinside has TONS of restore threads. Search the site & read some Sorcerer rebuild threads. Read the Vid's repair guides. Follow pinsiders who have done restores you enjoy & read some of their other threads for knowledge. And most importantly, get a notebook & take notes while you're reading. Make a parts list as you go. Create a budget, then prepare to spend double that amount. When you're just starting out, the amount of knowledge out there can be overwhelming, but it is all readily available. You are ultimately the one who will have to put in the work.

Tip #3: Befriend some local pinball guys with pinball knowledge. The grayer the hair the better, they know their stuff That way when if you get stuck on something, someone will be close by to offer you advice or a lend a hand. This really helped me in my experiences.

Sounds like you want to do a nice restore & not a simple shop job. Playfield, cabinet repair & repaint, the works. Go for it! Pulling up your sleeves & getting your hands dirty is the only way you'll learn. A lot of restorers like to sink a ton of money into their restores to make them LOOK better-than-new, but just remember the most important thing about a restore is getting the game to PLAY like it's brand new. You don't have to break the bank.

I bought a beat up Mata Hari for my first restore & didn't have a clue what I was doing. I haven't looked back since. If it takes you forever, so what? You'll be gaining experience & having fun along the way. And then there's the payoff when you're finally finished. Good luck!

https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

I think one of the biggest problems a newbie can make is diving into a project before they are really ready. You're probably eager to get started but there are some basics you should realize first.
Tip #1: PHOTOS, PHOTOS & MORE PHOTOS! Tons of photos before you start tearing into it. Topside, underside, cabinet, every mech, every board, all the wiring, wide shots, close shots, different angles, etc. This cannot be stressed enough. They will be your frame of reference when putting everything back together months from now, when you've forgotten exactly where certain things go. Literally take hundreds & hundreds of photos.
Tip #2: Read, read, and then read some more! Then read some more! Read the entire Sorcerers Club thread for ideas & tips. Read the entire pinwiki page on Williams System 9 games. Pinside has TONS of restore threads. Search the site & read some Sorcerer rebuild threads. Read the Vid's repair guides. Follow pinsiders who have done restores you enjoy & read some of their other threads for knowledge. And most importantly, get a notebook & take notes while you're reading. Make a parts list as you go. Create a budget, then prepare to spend double that amount. When you're just starting out, the amount of knowledge out there can be overwhelming, but it is all readily available. You are ultimately the one who will have to put in the work.
Tip #3: Befriend some local pinball guys with pinball knowledge. The grayer the hair the better, they know their stuff That way when if you get stuck on something, someone will be close by to offer you advice or a lend a hand. This really helped me in my experiences.
Sounds like you want to do a nice restore & not a simple shop job. Playfield, cabinet repair & repaint, the works. Go for it! Pulling up your sleeves & getting your hands dirty is the only way you'll learn. A lot of restorers like to sink a ton of money into their restores to make them LOOK better-than-new, but just remember the most important thing about a restore is getting the game to PLAY like it's brand new. You don't have to break the bank.
I bought a beat up Mata Hari for my first restore & didn't have a clue what I was doing. I haven't looked back since. If it takes you forever, so what? You'll be gaining experience & having fun along the way. And then there's the payoff when you're finally finished. Good luck!
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11

All of this is speaking my language! Thank you for the insight, and I couldn't agree more with your thoughts. The deeper I get into planning this, the slower and more thorough of a job I am wanting to do just to get the most out of this process and not make any crucial errors along the way. I'm fine with mistakes, but crucial errors that could have otherwise been avoided don't do a whole lot to boost my motivation to get better at something. As electrical work is entirely new to me, I am also taking the time up front now to learn as much as I can about basic circuitry and troubleshooting.

I have come a long way in the two months since I googled "what is a diode," and it no longer feels entirely overwhelming.

One concern: I don't want to drop the ball on progress and will be planning out small 'sub-projects' to tackle regularly that will get the machine closer to its final state. I will have an update re: time-line and some starting pics up in this thread before the weekend...

Funny enough, Mata Hari was my "has to be my first game" game for a long time. Though I'm glad I went with the Sorcerer in terms of both gameplay and as a slightly more complex learning tool, I may put this amount of effort into a Mata Hari at some point; very few other games that would make that list.

2 weeks later
#24 2 years ago
Quoted from Thoughtfulsardin:

The further I get into this, the more it seems to make sense to go with a full gold CPR swap at the end. I feel like going with a hard top after doing all this work would be maybe a bit anticlimactic.

There is no more “gold”. CPR doesn’t grade and stamp their playfields anymore.

My 2 cents:
1) Consider playing the game for a while, put a few hundred games in, before deciding on a restoration and gauge your love for it. You’ll spend more on a full blown restoration than you’ll likely get back in a sale if you lose interest, and even more so if it doesn’t get finished. A new playfield, back glass, boards, cabinet repaint, etc can jump up over $2K or more pretty quick. It would suck to spend a lot of time and money only to find that you are left with a game you aren’t that into, and could have had more game for the money.

2) Make sure you are comfortable with (or better yet enjoy) troubleshooting electrical and mechanical issues since it’s a big part of pinball ownership. If you go the route of a complete tear down and replace a bunch of components, odd problems inevitably creep in, even if the machine was working 100% before you start. It’s much easier to diagnose problems if you can replace parts one at a time and test compared to swapping a number of components at once.

3) if you don’t like trouble shooting (or lack the time or skills) consider seeking out a local reputable pinball tech for help getting a machine up and running. If they don’t do in home service, ask if you can watch while they work (they might decline), or if they can give you a detailed walkthrough of what they have done. The process of diagnosing issues is an invaluable resource.

4) I find it actually a lot easier to start pinball restorations as a hobby with Electro Mechanical machines from the 60’s and 70’s. The machines are widely available, cheap, simpler, and parts are plentiful. The schematics are easy to read and troubleshoot. They only require rough soldering skills, basic tools, and an multimeter. I think they are a great entry point into pinball ownership and restoration.

All that being said, it is a lot of fun to work on pins and good luck with whatever you do.

#25 2 years ago

1. Cover safety basics before turning it on. Never assume even a "good/nice seller" did any of these things. You'll be wide-eyes surprised some day when a friend sells you a game with the wrong fuses in there, haha...
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/post-purchase-checklist
(be sure and fire-proof the game)

2. In general, do things one at a time, so if you introduce errors, you know what you did to cause it. "What's the last thing you did?" is the first question anyone trying to help you out will ask.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/shop-job-master-checklist

3. Check your pictures as you go, never assume that the "click sound" on your phone = a good picture. You have to check each and every one. Take more photos than you think you need. Don't ask me how I know this.

I did a Sorcerer rebuild once, and so did a dozen others on Pinside, feel free to reach out to me if you have questions.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/playfield-tear-down-sorcerer
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sorcerer-project

-mof

#26 2 years ago

Lots of good advice in the thread already. Here's a few points I have learned.

1. Don't expect to get your money back out of this restoration. You are already $2000 in the game, it will cost between $800-2000 or more on the restoration depending on how deep you go. CPR playfield is $1000, pinball pimp stencils is $250 + paint, plastics are around $140, mech parts, plating, legs, new backglass, etc. It all adds up. That's fine if this is a keeper pin for you and it is a labor of love or you are treating it as a hobby and the cost is your price for the fun and experience. Just don't expect to make money or break even on this project, even a restored Sorceror is probably a $3000-3500 pin.

2. Take TONS of pictures before you do ANYTHING. Pics from every angle. Pics from angles you don't even think you will need. Topside and bottom side. Label all your connectors before you take them off the boards. Once you tear down the topside put the fasteners back in the holes as you go and take more pictures so you know which screws go where. I like to tape my screws to the mechs and label each mech by number on the masking tape. I put a number in pencil on the backside of the PF where the mech goes. Makes it easier for me to not get confused when I reinstall.

3. Take your time. This will be a long project. If it becomes work, take a bit of a break but try to do something on the project regularly.

Best of luck!

#27 2 years ago
Quoted from Thoughtfulsardin:

D) I am brand new to electrical work in general and soldering. What can I do to prepare myself from a learning standpoint to succeed here?

Go to a garage sale tomorrow and buy any old electronic item, and start desoldering and resoldering connections. (to prep you for simple board repair)

Watch youtube tutorials on ANYTHING you have questions about in the DIY world, and THEN come on here and ask for help. Odds are 98.21% likely that you are not the first person asking the question, and the answer is on youtube. It doesn't have to be a pinball video to teach soldering/de-soldering.

Finally, you can do a video-chat with someone to watch them work and ask questions. But before you do that:

1. have practice material to work with
2. have tools ready
3. watch vids
4. THEN ask for people's time... to confirm/enhance your beginner intuitions.

Finally, board soldering and under-playfield soldering are two different levels of challenge. It's much harder to mess up under-playfield work. You have occasional unwanted drips, but you generally are not melting things or shorting things, which is easier on a board...

-mof

#28 2 years ago

Here's a minimum tool list you'll need to work on games.

(Until you do your first playfield swap, you won't need the stapler.)

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/playfield-swap-guide#post-2377818

1 month later
#29 2 years ago

I'm about to buy a Sorcerer with a CPR Gold Repro playfield. I intend to install this playfield (will be my second time doing this, first one was an F-14).
I was wondering if anyone has installed a Solenoid Saver (Fuse board) on a system 9. I know it can be done, but is there any wiring differences? The reason I want to do this, is because with my F-14, the stack switch dimple on the repro playfield was off enough that it caused major PITA issues and eventually the pop bumper machine gunned and blew the upline IC chip on a new Rottendog MPU driver board. Don't want to deal with blowing any IC chips or transistors again!

#31 2 years ago

Here is a helpful comment from a Pinsider about my question as to if there are any wiring issues to be aware of when installing onto a System 9 machine.

Hi there,
"There weren't any issues with the adapter, other than making sure to connect the "pass thru" connector on the unprotected lines, so that the 6 active circuits are fused. I think I mentioned that in a later post somewhere in the thread. It's a great product and I don't run a vintage game without one - they've saved issues several times. You'll be glad you have it!"

#32 2 years ago

Ya, I saw that. But it doesn't answer my question about wiring differences with System 9? It's a system 11 bullet proofing thread. I knew it could be done on System 9 when I saw that picture.

#33 2 years ago

1- Buy a label maker, Rhino 5200 is a great labeler. Label all the things you disconnect. No more forgetting where the cable goes. Plus and bonus, label are water resistant so you can wash them in a dish washer, etc or whatever method you choose to wash the harness.

2- anything that is desoldered, use the HEP method. If you have not followed his threads, do it. You will pick up lots of do and don't just by watching him work. High End Pins is the name of the company. Look it up.
In a nutshell, he adds extensions to anything that is desoldered, the extension has a molex connector, so you can make the extension as long as you want. Bonus, now the part (any part) can be easily removed from the game later on when maintenance is needed. He even adds molex to the flipper coils. This is a GREAT. I have done this to all my games and it is a time saver, it is reliable and when I need to work on flippers it is really easy to take them off!
Highly recommend.

This in combination with a labeler, now you can unplug almost everything and now exactly where it goes.

3- Label all your connectors. I do not know system 9, but system 11 has lots on the boards. Label them all.

4- As said before, take photos of even the smallest part. IT is amazing how hard it can be to put something back without a reference.

5- Some guys buy a piece of foam as big as the PF and when disassembling the Pf they plug the parts and bits onto the foam, this give the part it exact location. Some guys also draw on the foam and put notes.

6- There is more, have fun.

7- Read the thread about PF restoration and clear coating, and etc etc etc. you will need it here.

Cheers

#34 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

7- Read the thread about PF restoration and clear coating, and etc etc etc. you will need it here.
Cheers

Yup, Vid's guides are awesome!!

#35 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

he adds extensions to anything that is desoldered, the extension has a molex connector

There is some side discussion about that wisdom of that on here. Adding molex connectors everywhere adds both cost and additional failure points. The only upside is to save from having to possibly pull out your soldering iron when performing service. To each their own.

#36 2 years ago
Quoted from bigguybbr:

There is some side discussion about that wisdom of that on here. Adding molex connectors everywhere adds both cost and additional failure points. The only upside is to save from having to possibly pull out your soldering iron when performing service. To each their own.

Adds cost, which is why they are not used in points that don't see a lot of maintenance except for when they need replacement. You multiply 0.25 per connector cents a few thousand times per title and it makes a dent in a company's bottom line.
So yes, cost.

The whole argument of reliability, is irrelevant to me, simple: I see molex connectors 30+ years old often. The connector itself is rated for thousands of actuations. it is tested and measured by Molex as part of their systems. These connectors are used often in commercial grade equipment, including communications, vehicles, servers, data centres, etc... These enterprises building their systems around these connectors need reliability. A lost connection equals profits lost.

I test my crimps with a 20lb dumbbell. a 18AWG connector should hold 20lbs, if it does not, you are no crimping it right. And with a dedicated molex crimper (too expensive for pinball) I am sure this can be improved. Nonetheless, 20lbs is a lot so I am ok with it.
If my crimps do not pass the dumbbell test, then I do not use that connector/terminal/crimper combo.
22AWG, I can hold up to 12-15lbs.

The connector only can fail at the crimp, so it is not the actual molex/terminal issue. Is the operator. A shitty soldering job is still a soldering job.
I prefer a good crimp over a shitty soldering job.

There is nothing wrong with molex, providing your crimps are good I guess.

Most 90s machine have insulated connectors in most of the boards. Still good today and some are still original. My IJ has all the original connectors, built in 1993.

Nothing beats molex when done correctly in my opinion.

#37 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

Adds cost, which is why they are not used in points that don't see a lot of maintenance except for when they need replacement. You multiply 0.25 per connector cents a few thousand times per title and it makes a dent in a company's bottom line.
So yes, cost.
The whole argument of reliability, is irrelevant to me, simple: I see molex connectors 30+ years old often. The connector itself is rated for thousands of actuations. it is tested and measured by Molex as part of their systems. These connectors are used often in commercial grade equipment, including communications, vehicles, servers, data centres, etc... These enterprises building their systems around these connectors need reliability. A lost connection equals profits lost.
I test my crimps with a 20lb dumbbell. a 18AWG connector should hold 20lbs, if it does not, you are no crimping it right. And with a dedicated molex crimper (too expensive for pinball) I am sure this can be improved. Nonetheless, 20lbs is a lot so I am ok with it.
If my crimps do not pass the dumbbell test, then I do not use that connector/terminal/crimper combo.
22AWG, I can hold up to 12-15lbs.
The connector only can fail at the crimp, so it is not the actual molex/terminal issue. Is the operator. A shitty soldering job is still a soldering job.
I prefer a good crimp over a shitty soldering job.
There is nothing wrong with molex, providing your crimps are good I guess.
Most 90s machine have insulated connectors in most of the boards. Still good today and some are still original. My IJ has all the original connectors, built in 1993.
Nothing beats molex when done correctly in my opinion.

Like I said, to each their own.

There is no case in which splicing a connector into a solid strand of wire adds to the reliability. The crimp is a failure point, and making good crimps is both a skill and dependent on your crimp tool and materials. A loose pin in the housing becomes a dead short that fries a transistor. A loose connector is another failure point that causes intermittent issues that are a pain to troubleshoot. Older games where the dye leaches out of the insulator causes bad connections.

I test my crimps with a 20lb dumbbell

Sounds like a lot of extra work.

I prefer a good crimp over a shitty soldering job.

It's not a one or the other choice. You will still have a solder joint at the coil terminals even with a molex connector. It isn't eliminated as a possible failure point.

You might be able to get your costs down if you buy connector housings and pins in bulk, but it is probably more than 25 cents each for most of us if you are only ordering a few. Example: $5.50 for a 3 pack before shipping https://www.parts-express.com/Molex-2-Pin-Connector-Kit-0.093-3-Sets-092-552. On my current project that has 17 coils and relays, it would add an extra $33 to the build cost before shipping, not including say $50 for a good crimper if you don't already have one, and any extra wire you need.

I'm for connectors to allow easier servicing of larger assemblies like drop target banks with multiples switches, relays, coils, etc. where unsoldering each component wouldn't be feasible. Because of that, these are usually included from the factory.

I'm not for adding connectors to simple 2 and 3 wire coil connections that rarely need to be disconnected and aren't difficult to solder. If you need to replace a coil when you have a molex connector, you will need still need to solder on a lead with a molex connector, so you haven't saved any time or effort. And if the coil has overheated, it's quite possible the connector housing has too.

If you like adding them, that's cool. It might save you from having to solder something over your cabinet with the playfield raised or over your brand new playfield, but it doesn't provide enough benefit for me to want to do it.

#38 2 years ago
Quoted from bigguybbr:

Like I said, to each their own.
There is no case in which splicing a connector into a solid strand of wire adds to the reliability. The crimp is a failure point, and making good crimps is both a skill and dependent on your crimp tool and materials. A loose pin in the housing becomes a dead short that fries a transistor. A loose connector is another failure point that causes intermittent issues that are a pain to troubleshoot. Older games where the dye leaches out of the insulator causes bad connections.

Sounds like a lot of extra work.

It's not a one or the other choice. You will still have a solder joint at the coil terminals even with a molex connector. It isn't eliminated as a possible failure point.
You might be able to get your costs down if you buy connector housings and pins in bulk, but it is probably more than 25 cents each for most of us if you are only ordering a few. Example: $5.50 for a 3 pack before shipping https://www.parts-express.com/Molex-2-Pin-Connector-Kit-0.093-3-Sets-092-552. On my current project that has 17 coils and relays, it would add an extra $33 to the build cost before shipping, not including say $50 for a good crimper if you don't already have one, and any extra wire you need.
I'm for connectors to allow easier servicing of larger assemblies like drop target banks with multiples switches, relays, coils, etc. where unsoldering each component wouldn't be feasible. Because of that, these are usually included from the factory.
I'm not for adding connectors to simple 2 and 3 wire coil connections that rarely need to be disconnected and aren't difficult to solder. If you need to replace a coil when you have a molex connector, you will need still to solder on a lead with a molex connector, so you haven't saved any time or effort. And if the coil has overheated, it's quite possible the connector housing has too.
If you like adding them, that's cool. It might save you from having to solder something over your cabinet with the playfield raised or over your brand new playfield, but it doesn't provide enough benefit for me to want to do it.

Whatever works right.
I think there are lots of advantages.

Working on any assy outside of the game is 1000% easier. Even for soldering coils.

Soldering coils inside the game isnt easy when diagonosing a bad eos in a wpc89 for example.

Flippers is where is at, if you doubt your molex, you have the exact duplicate right next to the faulty flipper.
A quick disconnect and you are now testing using the other coil.

It is a no brainer for me and will not do it any other way. Cheers

#39 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

1- Buy a label maker, Rhino 5200 is a great labeler.

The DYMO Rhino 4200 Label Maker is $46.00 USD cheaper and should work just fine? Or am I missing something?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005MR516Y/

#40 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr_Outlane:

The DYMO Rhino 4200 Label Maker is $46.00 USD cheaper and should work just fine? Or am I missing something?
amazon.com link »

Nah any of them work fine. They'll even survive the dishwasher without any trouble (the labels of course, not the label maker).

#41 2 years ago
Quoted from bigguybbr:

Nah any of them work fine. They'll even survive the dishwasher without any trouble (the labels of course, not the label maker).

Oh hell, in that case I'll buy this one for $17.89 USD.

https://www.amazon.com/DYMO-LetraTag-Handheld-Labeling-1955663/dp/B002Q9MCG8/ref=psdc_226180_t2_B005MR516Y

And five 1/2 in x 13 ft White LetraTag Plastic refills for $10.99.

https://www.amazon.com/Wonfoucs-Compatible-Label-Replacement-Refills/dp/B08591Q29M/ref=pd_bxgy_1/131-2074409-8956347

** I used blue painter's tape with permanent marker to label last time and it survived the dish washer, but was a PITA and don't recommend it.
** Also, if you're going to use the dish washer to clean your wiring harness, make sure you don't have wires hanging down stopping the rinse propeller and that you don't have heat dry turned on!

#42 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr_Outlane:

Oh hell, in that case I'll buy this one for $17.89 USD.
amazon.com link »
And five 1/2 in x 13 ft White LetraTag Plastic refills for $10.99.
amazon.com link »
** I used blue painter's tape with permanent marker to label last time and it survived the dish washer, but was a PITA and don't recommend it.
** Also, if you're going to use the dish washer to clean your wiring harness, make sure you don't have wires hanging down stopping the rinse propeller and that you don't have heat dry turned on!

good find.
Any will work, the 4200 is ok too, the 5200 comes as kit with the lithium battery that lasts a long time.
I bought 5200 for the battery and because these can print on heat shrink labels (if you wanted to take to the next level).
I am bit of a extremist maybe but my motto is buy once cry once, lol.

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