(Topic ID: 302920)

Playmatic “New World” - help needed

By Nikrox2

2 years ago


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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by baldtwit
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#1 2 years ago

1976 Playmatic “New World”

I had hi-jacked another’s post , so as suggested I started a new one.

Issue #1 - when pushing the start button the first time - I get one player to light up. (Note - no credits are subtracted). When I push the start button again - I get varying results. Sometimes just player 2. Sometimes players 2 & 3. If just player 2, the third time always gets me players 3 & 4.

When this happens J2 and / or J3 & J4 activate simultaneously. (In the same score motor rotation).

Note - upon 2nd or 3rd push of the play button does reduce credits (just not the first one)

Issue 2 - at first this only happened in 5 ball mode but now happens in 3 ball mode as well.

And this only happens on single player games - multi player games work fine -but…

Push start button once - get Player 1 to light up , all starts and plays fine - drains and cycles to next ball. Sometimes I get thru all 5 balls. As it’s supposed to do. But most of the time and it’s sporadic - varies so much- sometimes on ball 2 , or 4 - T2, T3 OR T4 will activate (J2, J3, J4 DO NOT activate ) - then scorning goes to that players score reels.

Sometimes it skips a ball and finishes out on player 1, sometimes it goes back and forth between the “chosen” player (who or what chooses I don’t know. Lol).

I have cleaned the rivets and contact plate on the balls played unit and the contact points - several times.

I have checked and cleaned / adjusted all score motor switches. Have checked and cleaned I think every switch in this machine. Lol

It seems like the balls played unit does not step appropriately - again it varies. It should fire 4 times to get it back to player 1. Sometimes it only fires 2 or 3 times.

I have the schematics (also available on the IPDB).

What switch fires the balls played unit the needed number of times? (Score motor 2C ?)

On the schematics - In the Relays listing - for T2, T3 & T4 - there is a column showing “Contacts” - in this case all three show 7A

What / where is 7A?

If I need to break this down to two diff posts let me know and I will do. Just thought as it’s the same game may be easier - and may actually be related issues ???

As always any help or suggestions are appreciated. Thanks in advance

#2 2 years ago

Not sure about Playmatics, but on the big three games, that refers to switch state.
A = normally open switch
B = normally closed
C = make-break

Are there 7 individual switches in each of the relays?

Quoted from Nikrox2:

On the schematics - In the Relays listing - for T2, T3 & T4 - there is a column showing “Contacts” - in this case all three show 7A

What / where is 7A?

#3 2 years ago

Yes. T2,T3 & T4 have 7 switches. From what I can tell the 7th is open. So the listing tells what switch or “contacts” activates the relay?

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#4 2 years ago

So is that the Rosetta Stone? This listing is the condition of each switch on each relay ?

Example - first one “A” - all 5 switches open?

Second one “B” - 4 are open but #2 is closed ?

And where is has a number and “CO” means that switch is a M/B?

Just tying to understand the schematic better.

#5 2 years ago

By looking at the Tilt relay this seems to be the answer. Now I can go thru to verify all switch status - perfect. Thank you

#6 2 years ago

maybe spanish?

open = abrir
closed = cerrado

if so, 7A could mean the switch stack(s) have 7 normally open switches on it.

2A 4C 1CO could means 2 NO, 4 NC and 1 make/break switches. It does not say what position on the stack each switch is ... however, it should be obvious if you manually move the switch armature plate and watch what the blades are doing.

there's a couple pieces of background that will make life easier.
1] can you rotate the score motor cams by hand ... try with the power off turning in the same direction the motor does it
2] how many notches are on the index cam ... can you post a pic of the cams at an angle or take a video of the cams running? You can email the video to [email protected] if you don't have a place to put it and make it accessible.

if you're stuck, I'll be going to the pacific pinball museum warehouse next week and will pull a new world out of the piles and get some info.

in below, Jx means J2, J3 or J4. Tx means T1, T2, T3, or T4.

for adding players, the game works by tripping the Jx relays. When you reset the game, the I relay should power and stay powered until DM, G or F powers (you shoot a ball and score some points). If the score motor runs when I is powered, the next Jx relay should trip and enable the next player.

the balls played unit is keeping track of the balls played AND which player is active. In a 4 player game, the balls played unit steps once every time a ball is sent to the shooter. The next Tx relay is powered, and switches on the Tx relay direct scoring to appropriate player reels, light the player up lights, etc.

You should never see more than one Tx relay powered at the same time. If you do, multiple players will score at the same time. Usually this happens if the wipers on the stepper unit are bridging rivets because the unit is not stepping correctly.

when you have less than a 4 player game, the balls played unit needs to step multiple times to advance over the inactive players. Switches on the untripped Jx and Tx relays make that happen.

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from Nikrox2:

Second one “B” - 4 are open but #2 is closed ?

Not quite...there are 4 open and 2 switches closed. It doesn't tell you which is which, just that out of 6 total switches 4 open and 2 are closed. You then look at the relay and figure out which is which.

#8 2 years ago

and it looks like for relays I and J the 1CO is one closed/open, which usually is called make-break

#9 2 years ago

Thanks for all the help and yes having this info makes it “somewhat “ easier. At least I’m not totally blind. (Dumb as a rock maybe. )

Status - mainly reading back to “baldtwit” posting above-

Index cam has 2 notches. I’ve rotated it slowly with power off and can see the other switch stacks operate. (Verifying those stacks per the Motor Switch Positions diagram )

For issue 1 - as soon as I push the start button a 2nd time - all three J2, J3 & J4 activate - in one 180 deg cycle of the score motor So it’s either one player or four

Again not sure which switch on the score motor drives the balls played unit tho?

Back to your post - trying to answer in order - only one Tx activates at once. Never two.

Even with the Jx’s NOT activated - for some reason one of the other Tx’s activate at various times at various balls. Only on player one games.

“Switches on the untripped Jx and Tx relays make that happen” - which switches make this happen.

And again. - I appreciate all the help and I’m learning on this game!

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#10 2 years ago
Quoted from Nikrox2:

Index cam has 2 notches. I’ve rotated it slowly with power off and can see the other switch stacks operate. (Verifying those stacks per the Motor Switch Positions diagram )
For issue 1 - as soon as I push the start button a 2nd time - all three J2, J3 & J4 activate - in one 180 deg cycle of the score motor

ok, so a score motor cycle is 180 degree rotation of the cams. J2-J4 activating in one cycle is wrong, so deal with that first.

below is the schematic for enabling players. J2-J4 are "interlock relays" ... they have two coils each and can be tripped and reset by powering one or the other coil. They stay in that state.
new world player enable (resized).pngnew world player enable (resized).png

1] when you reset the game, the C relay powers and J2-J4 reset coils are powered by an index switch. (green highlight). You now have a 1 player game. The P relay does not power during reset.

2] cycle the game again and the P relay powers and the C relay does not power (not shown on below schem). The circuit completes to the score motor switches 1B, 3B and 5C. The key thing is only one of those switches should be closed at any given time, and they close in numerical order.

3] when 1B closes, the circuit completes to the J3 switch ... but that relay is untripped, so the switch is open and nothing should happen to J4

4] same with 3B ... circuit completes to an open J2 switch and nothing happens to J3

5] when 5C closes, circuit completes to J2 coil and J2 trips. Now all the J2 switches are in the opposite state from what is shown on the schem

6] score motor cams complete 180 rotation and stop ... but note 1B and 3B already did their thing, so although J2 is now tripped, it's too late to affect J3 on this cycle.

when you cycle game again, J3 switch is still open so nothing happens to J4. However, J2 is now closed so 3B causes J3 to trip, enabling player 3. (blue highlight)

cycle again and J4 trips to enable player 4. (yellow highlight)

none of the above cares about what the balls played unit is doing, so figure out why J3 and J4 are tripping on the same cycle as J2 then you can move on to why the balls played unit is not stepping correctly.

new world has a plug in the score motor wiring you can pull out to disconnect the score motor. What I'd do is reset the game, then yank the plug. Push the replay button and verify the P relay is powered, then turn the cams by hand and see when J2-J4 are tripping. If all three trip at the same time as you turn the cams, someone has messed with the wiring.

if J4 trips first, then J3, then J2, the switches on those relays aren't working right. Can you post a pic of J2 in the tripped and untripped state?

#11 2 years ago

Aha! Finally found that disconnect you’re referencing for the score motor (small Jones plug type so I was missing it)

Now knowing relay contacts (and status’) , score motor table definitions and status’ and being able to step the score motor one at a time will be a big help. Great help and tips. (Just took me a bit to understand and find

I’m going thru each relay ( in open /closed positions ) and each switch stack on the score motor as I manually step it to check the switches - all without power.

Once fully gone thru I’ll then step it thru with the power on to see what is happening / when. Then report back results.

Appreciate the help on this one !

#12 2 years ago

Made great progress. (Weekends = more Available time).

Per your instructions above set it to one player and then disconnected the score motor. Then pushed start again for 2nd player

As I stepped it thru - on reel 5 of the score motor - it tripped both J2 & J3. Using your logic I traced it back to reel 3 (3B as you pointed out ). It was staying closed! Adjusted and now get the correct number of players as wanted. That issue resolved.

Now on to the balls played unit. Still having that issue

I’ll try using the same technique to see if I can find the problem there (disconnect score motor and manually step it)

It seems like it needs to impulse once or twice more - but it varies. Just wondering if I should replace the coil sleeves on the balls played unit as it’s so variable, maybe it’s something other than a switch out of adjustment ?

Some of these are showing closed when the reel gets to its proper location but maybe not holding long enough to get the full impulse needed ?

Just throwing things out there.

But hey - making progress nonetheless - only one time left!

Thanks for the help and patience on this one!

#13 2 years ago

if you are playing a 1 player game, then every time the impulse switch stack closes the A switch the "add player unit" solenoid should power and step up the player unit.

at each player unit step, the next Tx relay should power. e.g. T1 is powered on player 1, T2 on player 2, etc.

in addition, Y and maybe Z relays need to be powered until the balls played unit is at the right place.

I don't know what a few switches are doing ... there's a "balls unit" switch that bypasses Z at schem 10C and a bunch of trough switches.

to minimize giving ya a bunch of bs, I'm going to pull a new world out of the piles at the pinball museum warehouse on monday and collect some info on when some switches operate.

#14 2 years ago

Possibly the Impulse A is not staying locked on long enough ? I’ve watched the Y & Z relays and your right as long as those are activating it seems to continue on the the correct ball.

I’m going to go Thru it again tomorrow am to let you know for sure (too late tonight to work on it. Wake up the kids. Lol). But sometimes (I think) the second trough switch is not holding Y & Z powered on. But again I’ll verify this tomorrow morning.

Manually stepping thru it / and watching it when the score motor is connected -

The first trough switch rotates the SM 180 deg. Adds bonus’ and kicks ball to 2nd trough switch that (I think ) counts down on balls played. A 3rd trough switch in the upper middle of the shooter trough turns off the lit pop bumpers The first two trough switches do thru rotation of the SM count down the 4 steps needed for a single player to go the next ball. Sometimes it’s just not counting the correct number of times. And a Tx relay opens. (Varies which Tx and in which ball)

Going to check the Impulse A again first thing as well. I did go over that stack (well, all of them again). But maybe just not holding long enough and breaking open too soon?

#15 2 years ago

Ugh. Checked adjusted / re-adjusted Impulse A. Checked Index stack. I’ll get a full game working correctly - then the next it stops on ball 1 or 2 and Tx will activate. Still varies which player. So thought it was fixed. But still same issue.

To verify - 1st trough switch when activated rotates the SM 180, adds bonus, kicks ball to next switch/ hold area - Y relay pulls in while SM rotates

2nd switch rotates SM 180, (this is where it’s supposed to go to next player) and kicks ball to shooter lane. Both Y & Z pull in while SM rotates

3rd trough switch is after ball is plunged - it seems to turn off any previous bonus (like the pop bumpers)

Either a switch is opening or closing too early / or too late - and it’s not properly making the required impulse to the balls played unit - that in turn sets what player it stops at Ugh.

It’s just so variable. Can’t seem to even manually step the SM to get same results each time. Weird.

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from Nikrox2:

Either a switch is opening or closing too early / or too late - and it’s not properly making the required impulse to the balls played unit - that in turn sets what player it stops at Ugh.
It’s just so variable. Can’t seem to even manually step the SM to get same results each time. Weird.

if manually rotating the SM cams gives variable results, that's helpful.

you know the first pulse to get from player 1 to player 2 is coming from score motor 2B, so you can ignore any impulse switch movement that happens before (if any). Do this:

1] turn cams past 2B and verify balls played unit stepped once

2] watch impulse cam stack and turn cams enough to make the stack go up/down once. Stop turning if the balls played unit step-up coil didn't power when the impulse stack is lifted almost all the way up or at the latest immediately after it flopped down.

the cams should be sitting at a place where you just missed a step-up pulse, so:

1] verify Y, Z and the appropriate Tx relay are powered

2] lift up the impulse cam switch stack with your finger higher than the cam lobe would do it and see if the balls played unit steps. If no, easy thing is make sure you stop turning the cams when impulse A is closed and then you can poke around in what should be a closed circuit with a voltmeter to see where the 24V disappeared. One meter probe on the red wire on the add balls played unit coil and other probe in the active Tx relay path to that coil.

I don't know how you are adjusting the switches. Just to make sure:

1] you should be adjusting the short blades

2] the switch stack should always be in contact with the cam edge and all the long blades are applying a little down pressure so they follow the cam profile without slop.

3] the switch contacts should change state when the stack travels around 3/4 the distance up a cam lobe. You should see the long blade move the short blade visibly after the contacts touch. Sometimes the movement is very slight, but on cams it should be really obvious. When a cam is opening a switch, you should see the long and short blades both moving a little before the contacts separate.

#17 2 years ago

Sir your help has been amazing ! Case solved. Using your logic above - I noticed that if I hold down on score motor stack 2 (with slight pressure) the ball count / player number worked correctly- every time.

I’ve gone over every switch in this game and the score motor I know 5 times. Lol. Checking both open and closed positions. But it looks like 2B was not operating correctly. I’d adjust too tight and or too open and of course different variations. But adjusted just “right” and now all working correctly.

Now I can get one thru four players and play a single player game - all as it should!

Game back to 100%!

Thanks again for your help!

May want to mention this to the other Playmatic guy issue - I think his had the older type score motor (stacked plates as compared to the barrel type I have ) but could be same issue?

Game on !

#18 2 years ago

I never would have bet on 2B. If that one is flaky, you'd have the game staying on the same player instead of advancing to the next one.

I think the other guys problem is different. His 2B always works, but the other circuits that advance over non-enabled players don't work reliably.

#19 2 years ago

If I had it adjusted too close yes it stayed on the same player /ball. It would rotate but not change. Too far open and not enough contact to get the needed impulse ? I went back and forth several times until I hit the sweet spot.

Played her about a dozen times today (each new ball expecting to go to another player lol) but she’s still playing correctly so happy here!

Thanks again!

#20 2 years ago

I don't think I was clear in previous stuff wrt 2B.

it needs to close at the same time as impulse A is closed, so your comment about impulse A not being closed long enough can affect the 2B circuit.

since the impulse cam pulses the A switch a few times during the score motor cycle, 2B's job is to let only one pulse thru to step the balls played unit. The other parallel circuits around the 2B switch let an additional pulse thru for each non-enabled player.

anyway, sounds like ya got it sorted. If it gets flaky again, check the relationship between 2B and impulse A.

#21 2 years ago

Could have been the adjustments to both index A and 2B. Seems like I touched every switch in this one! Lol

The hint was me slightly holding down the full #2 stack. Getting proper play. Again that could have been after I adjusted Index A.

Still playing correctly today - even when I win the extra ball bonus. Steps as it should now

Happy camper !

#22 2 years ago

Well it’s me again Margaret. After about a dozen or more games (working great thinking this problem was over) it’s back to where I started (and remarkably like the other Playmatic 4 player issue.)

All works well - except single player games. It’s not advancing correctly.

I do notice at each “end of ball” - the first trough switch (when closing) rotates the score motor a complete 360 deg (2 full rotations).

But the second trough switch (which from what I can tell steps the “balls played unit” - only rotates the score motor 180 deg (1 rotation)

If I hit that switch a second time (for a full 360 rotation) it then rotates correctly to the next ball same player 1. (As it should)

So how do I get 2 full turns instead of one on the 2nd trough switch ?

From the schematics I can’t tell what actually drives the score motor & number of rotations ?

Maybe I’m thinking a totally different direction here? Ugh.

#23 2 years ago

I didn’t state that correctly.

The first trough switch rotates the score motor a full 360 - which is both indentations on the Index reel. (One full turn )

The second trough switch rotates the score motor only 180 deg - which is only one indentation on the index reel (half a turn)

I think it needs to go to the next indentation - to do a full 360 deg.

That’s what I meant.

#24 2 years ago

Watching this a little close the first trough switch doesn’t always make the score motor go a full 360. Sometimes just half a turn (180)

Also notice if manually stepping - if I just rotate the score motor once more 180 rotation as I thought would fix it - does not. I have to activate the 2nd trough switch again before the 2nd 180 turn - then it advances to the next ball correctly.

Not sure if any of this info helps in diagnosing ?

I have also noticed the Plastic end pieces in the switch stacks are sometimes off the individual cogs - and on a couple they’ve worn down - 1/16” maybe?

Couod this be part of the issue? I’ve gone over every switch on the score motor and the other relays. Baffled here.

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#25 2 years ago

Giving updates when I can.

Although it was playing fine on multi player games and only not advancing correctly on single player games - what ever adjustments I’ve done - now it’s like this in all modes. Ugh

Right now it will advance to the correct ball - only after activating the 2nd trough switch a second time (first time it will go to player 2- ball one - even though J2 is not activated (T2 does)

I thought If the score motor rotated another cycle (180 deg) it would fix it, but if I manually rotate it another turn it does not advance - the trough switch has to be activated (which activates Y & Z relay) - then it advances.

First trough switch only activates Y relay BTW

So it’s like every other cycle- it works correctly.

Not sure if any of this helps ???

I keep going thru the score motor and the switch stacks. Checking all open/ close positions. Changed coil sleeves on balls played stepper unit. Verified solder joints at all contact points verified switch status on “all” other relays.

Stumped.

#26 2 years ago

general comment first.

the switch stacks should stay on the cam edge always. If the stack is floating a little above the cam, it won't be reliable. When a notch rolls around, the stack needs to snap down into it.

you have to adjust the tension on the long blades to apply down pressure, then you may need to adjust some short blades so the contacts work right.

pedantically, it's the plastic cam follower that is sitting on the cam edge, but the red lifter piece needs to stay down on the follower blade always.

trough switch tmi
--------------------

you have a single switch where the ball lands as it leaves the playfield. Most manufacturers called that the outhole switch (I'll call it that below to avoid more confusion). It has RD-GR and SL-WH wires on it and it powers the U relay. That causes the bonus to count down. How many score motor cycles (180 degree rotations) depends on the amount of bonus, so it can be different each ball.

when the bonus unit reaches reset ("0" position), the Y relay is powered, but not the Z relay.

because the Y powered, the ball is kicked over to the shooter and U loses power. On the way the ball passes over the rollover activating the other trough switch stack, which closes two switches at the same time.

one switch with SL-WH and BLK-RED wires powers the Z relay, and unless V is powered for an extra ball (shoot again), Y and Z will both be held powered until score motor 6C opens.

the other trough switch with the MAR and SL-WH wires steps up the bonus unit once so the position '0' switches change state

because the Y relay is powered, the score motor is powered.

yeah yeah, but what about the problem
--------------------------------------------

impulse cam A switch with WH and BLK-MA wires is sending pulses into the circuit that steps the balls unit coil. When Y and Z are powered, those pulses can reach the step-up coil.

2B and imp A switch close at the same time and steps the add balls played unit. The player advances to the next one ... whether it's enabled or not. That always happens.

now the circuits around 17E come into play. They power one of the T1-T4 relays. e.g. If you are on player 1, T1 is powered.

look on the schem around 10E. If 2B moved you to player 2, then T2 is powered. If J2 isn't tripped (player 2 not enabled), then the next imp A pulse will pass thru and step the balls played unit again. Repeat for T3/J3 and T4/J4 and you are back to player 1.

the stepping of the balls played unit 4 times to get back to player one should happen in 1 cycle - 180 degrees of cam rotation. It actually has to happen before 6C opens, which is why the impulse cam lobes are bunched together. Note the first lobe happens before 2B is closed, so it's not used for ball unit advance.

if the ball unit it doesn't step every time the imp A cam switch closes (after the first time), there's some possibilities:

1] the player it stopped on has an issue with the Tx/Jx switches or the wipers on the player unit aren't powering Tx.
2] the imp A switch is flaky and not making reliable pulses
3] if Y/Z are unpowering too soon, 6C is not reliably closed
4] the Y or Z switch in the circuit to the add balls played coil are flaky

enough already!
------------------

do your disconnect the score motor and spin by hand thing. If you want to test with bonus and have the playfield tipped up, you need to hold the outhole switch closed (or jumper it) while you spin the cams until the ball return coil fires, then you briefly need to close the other two trough switches to get Y and Z to power and step up the bonus unit. If you jumpered the outhole switch, remove the jumper before closing the trough switches.

if you want to cheat a little, you can manually reset the bonus unit and close the outhole switch with your finger. The ball return coil should immediately fire and you can let go without turning the score motor cams. Then operate the trough switch stack and start spinning the cams by hand.

as you rotate the cams, the add player unit should power every time the impulse cam stack goes up. If it doesn't, leave the cams with the impulse stack lifted and see if Y and Z are still powered. Then I'd just use a voltmeter with one probe on the RD wire on any handy coil and the other poke in the add balls played coil circuit to see where the voltage dropped way below 33VAC.

also note that when a pulse doesn't make it to the add balls played unit due to a flaky switch, the next one might if Y and Z are still powered. However, when 6C opens, Y and Z will unpower and you are left on whatever player you are on. The score motor will not do another cycle unless you cheat and close Z again via the trough rollover or push the armature onto the coil top with your finger.

also, when adjusting the trough switches, use a ball on the rollover wire to operate the switches. Don't use your finger, as it can push the rollover down further than the ball can.

the long blade tension is what pushes the rollover wire up. You want those blades to push the rollover just enough to be all the way up, but not much extra tension or you could slow down/stall the ball on the way to the shooter.

if you got this far, get a beverage.

#27 2 years ago

Sorry it's taking so long to respond. I wanted to have some progress before re-posting. I'll re-cap from your last message -

(I started with getting a beverage..lol)

General Comments - Switch Stacks - although I could see the switches opening/closing upon rotation, there were 3 cogs that the red lifter plastic did not stay in full contact with the follower blade - they were say 1/8" above, so I adjusted those to fully close/snap upon their turn, and of course had to re-adjust the smaller blades for correct open/close. - no change, but it's correct.

Trough Switch - 1st one - now makes sense on whether it rotated the score motor more than once or not, based upon the number of bonus points added.

Y relay is powered until the balls kicks over to the next trough switch as you stated, and Y & Z relays then stay powered until 6SMC opens - all correct

**Question - I can trace these items through the schematics, but how do you read this "sequencing" from the schematics? I love getting info on how to fix, but love learning more on how to resolve in the future. Is the "sequencing" more stated in a series of operation in a manual, or should I be able to read this from the schematics? (I can't if it's the latter..lol) *****

Back to your post - the best or closest to correct operation it to have both Impulse A and 2SMB virtually closed - then it will go past player 1 by one stroke. If I get either of those switches totally closed, the SM runs continuously. Too far open, and it will only activate the balls played unit once, so just to the next player up.

If I leave them open as both should be per the schematics, and rotate manually (and yes, I've taped the 2 spinners closed and tilted up the playfield vertically to make it easier to work on the score motor switches. ) I add some points for ball 1, then manually close trough 1 switch, and either manually or let the game rotate the score motor. I then unplug the score motor and close the 2nd trough switch -

I can manually rotate the score motor or plug it back in and let the game rotate it - but I get the same results - 1st time thru it only activates the ball unit once (to the next player) - activate the 2nd trough switch again and either manually or letting the machine rotate the score motor, it then counts correctly to ball 2 for player one.

Y & Z relays stay closed until 6C opens, so they're not opening too soon (from the list above for possible options) I've once again cleaned the wipers and rivets on the Balls played unit.

I'm down to using the volt meter option, but not too clear on where to check there....ugh

"Then I'd just use a voltmeter with one probe on the RD wire on any handy coil and the other poke in the add balls played coil circuit to see where the voltage dropped way below 33VAC." = what am I looking for here, and where/how?

Sorry to sound like such a newbie, but usually I can find a switch doing this or that, or not doing this or that, and it's pretty cut & dry.

Why it needs to have the 2nd trough switch (and the Y & Z relays) activated a 2nd time to get where needed is beyond me?

#28 2 years ago

the sequencing starts when a trigger happens ... in this case, the trigger is the ball landing in the outhole.

after that, sequencing is done by the score motor switches or physical stuff like the ball moving from the outhole to the shooter.

you have it relatively easy because most of your score motor switch stacks just activate in order and not at the same time. The thing you have to look at that the schem doesn't show is the impulse cam switches and when they change in relation to stacks on cams 1-6.

I cheated and took a video of manually rotating the new world cams at the museum warehouse ... that's how I saw the first impulse cam stack activation happened before 2B so it's not relevant to the circuit operation.

anyway, keep in mind the two main principles:

1] score motor 2B ALWAYS advances to the next player, whether that player is enabled or not
2] if that player is not enabled, then the Jx + Tx switches should cause the add balls played coil to fire more times to keep advancing the player.

logically, if you are playing a 1 player game and the player advance goes to player 2 and stops AND the Y and Z relay switches are closed, then T2 + J2 is not working.

if you get the score motor to cycle again, 2B will move the balls played unit to player 3, and now T3+J4 and T4+J4 work and get you back to player 1.

if something in the T2 + J2 path is intermittent, then it's possible for one of the impulses to get through and move the player. However, there's only four impulses, so if more than one is needed to get the player to move from 2->3, then you'll run out of pulses before getting back to player 1 even if the T3 and T4 circuits are working fine.

that's how you can wind up on player 4 sometimes ... one of the previous steps needed more than one pulse to advance the player.

so here's what ya do:

1] do the manual cam turning until the add balls player unit steps the player to player 2

2] keep turning the cams until the impulse cam switch stack is lifted. At this point, the add balls played unit coil should power. Assuming it doesn't, stop turning the cams with the stack lifted.

3] verify that T2 relay is powered

4] put a voltmeter probe on the red wire on the add balls played unit coil or any coil with the red wire. It daisy chains to most of the coils. (red line on below)

5] put the other probe on the BLK-MA wire on the J2 switch (green dot). You should see around 33VAC. If you don't, the impulse A switch isn't closed. Try lifting the impulse stack with your finger.

6] if you do see the ~33V, move the probe from the green dot to any of the blue ones. If you see the 33V drop way down, something is wrong between the green dot and where your probe is.

note that if a solenoid does power (solenoid = coil + plunger), don't leave it powered for long. Solenoids are high power and will burn up if left powered for too long.

tmi as usual
--------------
the ideal way to use a voltmeter is to probe in a "closed" circuit. When the circuit is closed, current is flowing and you should not see any significant drops in voltage along the circuit path.

I dunno if it will help, but there's a confusing writeup here: http://bingo.cdyn.com/techno/readschem/

the key takeaway is:

1] do what you need to do the have a closed circuit path so current is flowing. Jumper wires are a valid shortcut if you don't want to fiddle with positioning units or the score motor cams.

2] put one meter probe on the common power wire for the load (where load = coil, lamp, motor) and use the other probe to poke around in the circuit that is feeding the other side of the load.

you should see the full transformer voltage if you stick the probe on both sides of the load - e.g. both coil lugs. If you don't, leave a probe on the common wire since that's often tied to the transformer - and if it had an issue lotsa stuff wouldn't work - then move the other probe to places along what should be the closed path and see where the voltage is back to the transformer output. When it goes to transformer voltage, the circuit from that point back to the transformer is good and your problem is between the probe and the load.

e.g if you poke one blade on a closed switch and see 33V, and poke the other blade and see 23V, the switch is dirty, not closed well enough or you have a bad solder joint.

another option is just use a jumper wire. The white wire on the transformer is common to the 28, 30 and 33V circuits. If you clip one end of the jumper there and poke the other end into the circuit at the green/blue dot points, the coil should power. If it doesn't, the circuit has an issue between where you jumpered to and the load.

the only issue with using a jumper is if the coil does power, you may need to set up the circuit again. The voltmeter won't do anything unless you short something with the probe tip or the pressure of the probe fixed a poor connection briefly.

new world vm (resized).jpgnew world vm (resized).jpg
#29 2 years ago

Starting to realize why another Pinsider got rid of this game! Too many hours under the hood on this one. Lol

Checked with the meter and used a jumper - get 32.7v across the line and all coils fire.

Whether manually rotating the score motor or letting the game rotate it- it’s like it’s making the correct contacts “every other “ cycle.

1 bump in the balls played unit (#2 score motor reel) on the first rotation, then the correct 4 then next rotation.

If a switch was off, I’d think it would react the same on each rotation - so seeing different results every other rotation may be a clue here?

Appreciate all the help and info here! Amazing Never tmi.

#30 2 years ago

I have noticed, that when it does not advance correctly, I can barely turn the score motor cams - where only the Index and Impulse cams actually rise a tad- and the balls played until will fire to the correct placement - thinking Impulse A is then closing - but I have it almost totally closed - any closer and it then keeps rotating.

Possibly at this time - that Impulse A is closing while another stack switch is still closed ? But I’ve checked these over and over and all are open - even 2B.

Weird

#31 2 years ago

you definitely don't want the cam switches with really tiny switch gaps.

the impulse cam lobes are pretty close together. If the switch gap is small, then the switch may not open long enough for the coil to lose power and step the unit before the next lobe closes the switch and powers the coil again.

in effect, 2B would power the coil and it'd stay powered until all the impulse cam lobes passed under the stack.

more generally, what you care about with switches is "overtravel". After the contact on the moving blade touches the contact on the mating blade, you should see the mating blade deflect a little. Manufacturers would quote numbers like 3/32" of deflection.

in practice on something like a cam operated switch:

1] if the switch is normally open, then it should close when the stack changes position around 3/4 of the way. The other 1/4 provides the overtravel.
2] if the switch is normally closed, it should open when the stack is around 1/4 into a position change. Again, the 1/4 is the overtravel.

position change = stack lifted by a cam lobe or stack dropped into a cam notch.

don't worry about being exactly 1/4, but do worry about the overtravel. e.g. if your NO switch changes when the stack is 1/2 to 7/8 changed, that'll almost always work fine too.

the easy thing is rotate the cams by hand with the power off and watch the switches. The long blade should cause the small overtravel, not bend the short blade a lot (most of the stack position change) because the contacts touched too soon.

the other general gotcha is make-break switches - the kind with three blades with the long/moving one between two others. Technically the moving blade should disconnect from one contact before connecting to the other - unless the switch is specifically labelled as "make before break".

if a make-break behaves like a make-before-break, it usually doesn't matter ... but occasionally you get bitten. e.g. the bonus scoring on a solar city.

#32 2 years ago

Re-adjusted Impulse A and 2B - to "normal" gap width, they both open and close as the others - in this mode it only jumps the balls played unit once each ball drain (closing Trough 1 & 2 switches - even double stroking the 2nd trough switch, only one hit to the BPU then too). If I get 2B too close, yes it jumps once too far, so all are now std gap.

One thing I do notice when I slowly rotate the cams, Cam 2 will drop, while Cam 1 is still rising so Cam 1 switches are still closed (for just a bit, but I see it happening). All others down the line, the previous Cam will open just prior to the next Cam closing - not sure if it's supposed to be that way? But I don't see how to adjust that as I think its driven by the lobe spacing's??

#33 2 years ago

I should say as a follow up, when it jumps the BPU just the one time with the correct gaps on Imp A and 2B - it drops to the next player - even tho the Jx is not activated. Single player game, 2nd ball goes to Player 2 still ball one, no player 2 light on (no J2 activated) but scoring occurs on Player 2 score reels. Ball drain, still on a single player game, it goes to Player 3 - ball 1 still, no J3 activated, etc. - so it's a std one bump per drain now at least.

I've noticed sometimes the balls played unit doesn't always get to the next player, it will hang a second or two, then drop on the next player - or it will remain "in between" and if I manually stroke a scoring switch, the appropriate points relay stays activated (buzzing because it has no place to put the points) , until I rotate the BPU to the next player.

Not sure if any of this info helps in diagnosing?

#34 2 years ago

The BPU "seems" to stroke easily, so not thinking any hang-up's there. I've changed the coil sleeves, cleaned the plate & rivets 100 times..(added a thin coating of contact disc grease from PBR) - maybe the springs are not functioning fully even tho it looks it?

The problem seems so repetitive tho, as in a switch issue..as in the BPU not getting the full impulse/strokes needed, so you're probably more on the right track...ugh

On a good note I picked up a basket case Hurdy Gurdy and already got it working..lol, so I'll tear that one down for a good cleaning / shopping, in between me knocking my head against the wall on this one! lol

#35 2 years ago

Here’s what I’m talking about the white plastic pieces worn some on the switch stack On Cam 1, it’s the worst (see zoomed in photo ).

“If” Cam 1 is to be open prior to the next Cam, as all others do (except the Impulse cam of course) - possibly this is keeping it closed too long ?

IDK - just throwing things at the wall right now to see what may stick. Lol

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#36 2 years ago

the worn cam follower (white plastic piece) will reduce the stack travel and slightly change the timing, but it should still work ok.

your post 33 sounds like correct behavior when only 2B is working.

lemme try another description, assuming you are turning the cams by hand

1] you are playing a 1 player game, so J2, J3 and J4 are not tripped.

2] ball 1 drains and 2B + impulse steps the add balls unit to player 2 once any bonus is counted off. That is correct. The impulse A switch should be between cam lobes after the unit stepped, so stop turning the cams.

3] look at the Y, Z and T2 relays. They should all be powered.

4] slowly turn the cams until the impulse stack is lifted and stop with the cams lifted if the add balls unit coil didn't power. You can also cheat and just lift the impulse cam switch with your finger instead of turning the cams.

if the add balls unit coil didn't power, you are pooched. If Y, Z and T2 are powered, the only thing left is a J2 switch and a T2 switch. The J2 switch is closed when J2 is not tripped, the T2 switch is closed when T2 is powered.

what is happening?

#37 2 years ago

I run thru this exactly all the way thru step 4 until I get to the “I’m pooched” spot. Lol

Weird - I can stroke the 2nd trough switch (which activates Z & Y ) a second time - then while rotating the cams - the BPU fires as it should at each cam. Just fires once on the first time thru

Not sure why it’s doing that?

I’ll look at both the J2 and T2 switches now

#38 2 years ago
Quoted from Nikrox2:

Not sure why it’s doing that?

because your problem is the J2 and/or T2 switches. The second time thru 2B steps the add balls coil instead, then the T3/J3 and T4/J4 circuit paths work.

does the schem in post 28 make sense or do you want a description?

#39 2 years ago

I think this is the area you’re speaking of ? The wire color designations are a little fuzzy or my wires have faded.

At least I’m down to those two switches!

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#40 2 years ago

Question - my schematics show the number of switches that should be open (A) and closed (C) and the m/b if applicable.

For Jx (2 thru 4) - see attached photo. Those are correct - if In the tripped position. I would have thought those shown on the schematics would be in the non- tripped position.

At first I was checking J2 and in the “not tripped” position, the count is opposite. But once tripped to engage that player, then the open/close count is correct.

And from movement on the switch armature plastic - it can only go this way.

Y and Z counts are in their open position. So just opposite of above but what I’d looked for.

One other note - J4 I have 2 open, 3 closed and the m/b. So 2 additional switches to what’s shown here. Hmmm??

And yes- I copy and print your directions and take notes on each step. Just to make sure I’m doing it correctly. Lol. (Damn I used to hate working on old Gottlieb’s. Now that looks like a breeze! ).

I do like how each of these Playmatic relays can come off their bracket for better / easier access. Took the playfield out to better inspect these in the lower cabinet. That’s when I noticed the opposite per the schematics on the Jx’s. (Just those 3)

image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg
#41 2 years ago

Here are photos of J4 being pulled - and a shot from each side (with a white paper between for clarity of switch positions).

I can take something like that for each relay if needed?

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#42 2 years ago

J3 being pulled and photos from each side to show switch positions. These are in the “not Tripped” position - as in no player light on back box. Once a player is added with the start button, they trip - which again by count only matches the schematics switch count

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#43 2 years ago

J2 …same

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#44 2 years ago

I wouldn't put a lot of faith in the chart on the schem wrt how many of each switch type there is. It's pretty common for stuff like that to be wrong as they often started with schem from an earlier game or a verion with different number of players and made changes, but weren't too good at making all the changes they should.

almost always the circuits are right, it's the extra info like the charts they got wrong.

your J4 relay has six switches, and I found 6 on the schem, so the chart is either wrong or there's something about it I don't understand.

how the switches are drawn on the schem is always a little fuzzy i.e. when is "normally". The gottlieb convention is the game is reset then turned off, but there's still some ambiguity on trip relays and the occasional circuit where the guy drawing the schem didn't bother with the convention.

I just go with what makes sense. In this case, for the balls unit to do what it needs to do, the J2 switch needs to be closed when player 2 is not enabled, so the Jx switches must be drawn in the relay untripped state.

you have the right idea wrt looking at the switches and seeing how they operate. You should be manually tripping/resetting the Jx relays and looking to see if the short blades get moved by the long blades when the contacts touch. Even then, it's possible the switch doesn't work right and you need to use a meter or jumper wire to verify.

those wire colors are somewhat suboptimal

one of the NC switches on J2 when the relay is untripped has yellow-blue and black-maroon wires. If you aren't comfortable poking around with a voltmeter, jumper the switch closed. Yeah, it supposed to be closed anyway, but that's a quick way to see if the contacts have an issue.

you could also jumper the NO T2 switch closed. Then the add balls unit will step on every impulse A closure. You'll wind up on the wrong player, but it'll tell you if the T2 switch isn't closing properly when T2 is powered.

since you can turn the cams by hand, you have the ideal situation for a jumper. Turn the cams until T2 powers and Y/Z are powered and leave them there, then lift up the impulse switch stack with your finger to close the A switch. If the add balls coil didn't power, jumper the J2 switch and lift again. Still didn't power, jumper T2 and lift again. Still no good, jumper both and try again.

if still no good, jumper Y and/or Z switches, but it really shouldn't be those. If still no good, now you must use a voltmeter to see what is going on.

#45 2 years ago

I hate to ask but can you give me more info / description on the Jumpers? Just clip the switches together ? Or where to what ? (And I can’t find those colors. Ugh).

I’ve checked no adjoining wires are keeping the relays from fully activating. Same as the small Cotter pins holding each relay , even adjusted the alignment of the switch stacks in the cams to ride correctly- just looking for something that maybe causing the issue as well - so taking the little things out of play

Once it gets to Player 2 (still ball one , J2 not tripped, T2 and Y&Z powered - all switches on T2 are closed) - and I’m manually rotating - player 2 is activated from the BPU after Cam 2 (2B) is closed with Impulse A closed - if I leave it in this position the BPU will stay fired so I rotate and Cam 2 raises Cam 3 falls - BPU de-powers, and I fully rotate the cams until the Index key - no further BPU advancement on any Cam, Z&Y deactivate upon cam 6.

If I activate Z&Y relays again (thru 2nd trough) - all happens as above except - on Cam 3 & Cam 4 the BPU fires as it should. (Is that because T2 was already activated?)

I may be saying the same thing over and over Just walking it thru as I type here.

Why is T2 activating and holding? All T2 switches are open until the BPU activates it, then all are fully closed.

#46 2 years ago

usually you clip the alligator jaws on the switch where the wire is attached. If you can't get to that, it's ok to clamp onto the blade itself.

you can even clamp both blades together around the contacts if you can do it without shorting to something else, but the ideal thing is on the wire solder point since a poor solder connection could be the problem and being on the wires would bypass that.

below is a pic of jumpers attached on a gottlieb game. In this pic, they are connecting a meter, but it shows how you usually connect the jumpers to blades.

PXL_20211108_200116369 (resized).jpgPXL_20211108_200116369 (resized).jpg

when the cam 2 switch stack is down in the notch, the 2B switch is closed. You need to rotate the cams until the cam 2 stack is out of the notch otherwise you will stick the BPU coil on ... and you don't want to do that for long. It's the switch stack climbing out of the notch that opens 2B and removes power to the coil.

cams 3-5 don't matter. Those switch stacks are going down/up, but it's the impulse cam stack that is going up/down that is making the pulse to the BPU coil.

normally a stepper unit moves the wipers when the solenoid loses power. Powering the solenoid coil pulls the pawl onto the next ratchet tooth, and when the power drops spring(s) pull the pawl and rotate the ratchet/wipers.

if you turn the cams until the BPU coil powers and stop turning, nothing really happens. You have to keep turning until the BPU coil loses power, then the wipers move and the T2 relay powers.

the Tx relays stay powered the entire time a player is selected. Switches on the Tx relays direct the scoring events to the right set of reels and does stuff like lighting the active player.

so ....

Quoted from Nikrox2:

player 2 is activated from the BPU after Cam 2 (2B) is closed with Impulse A closed - if I leave it in this position the BPU will stay fired so I rotate and Cam 2 raises Cam 3 falls - BPU de-powers

when cam 2 switch stack raises and the BPU coil loses power, stop rotating.

now what happens if you lift up the impulse A switch stack with your finger?

one key point is just because a switch looks closed doesn't mean it works. If the switch has significant resistance between the contacts due to crud, barely touching contacts, pitted contacts, contacts loose in the blade, poor wire solder connection or if the lug the wire is attached to is sandwiched onto the blade with the contact and the interface is loose or cruddy, the switch resistance can lower the current in the circuit enough for the coil to not work.

the purpose of the jumper is to bypass all that stuff connecting the blade wires together directly. When a jumper makes it work, then you get to figure out why the switch doesn't work. Usually people just clean the contacts, adjust the switch travel, make sure the stack screws are snug and look at the contact faces for deep pits/burns.

if none of that works, resoldering the wires is next.

the "sandwich" thing mentioned above is sometimes factory, but it can also be someone in the past did a quick fix for a broken blade or bad contact - or they didn't have a blade with the lug pointing in the right direction ... so they kept the original blade piece with the lug and holes and stuck the replacement blade with no lug next to it. Usually works fine, and you don't need to solder anything.

Quoted from Nikrox2:

If I activate Z&Y relays again (thru 2nd trough) - all happens as above except - on Cam 3 & Cam 4 the BPU fires as it should. (Is that because T2 was already activated?)

it's not cam 3 and 4, it's the impulse cam switch. There's multiple lobes on the impulse cam, and each lobe more-or-less lines up with a cam notch on cams 3-5.

the difference the second time thru is the BPU is starting at a player 2 position and 2B is moving the BPU to the player 3 position ... T2 and J2 don't matter anymore.

remember 2B ALWAYS moves the BPU to the next player whether that player is enabled or not. The job of the Tx/Jx relays in that circuit is to keep stepping the BPU when it's on player positions you didn't enable to get back to player 1.

the problem is what happened on the previous cycle ... as soon as T2 powered, the next impulse switch pulse should have caused the BPU to step to player 3. That didn't happen, so the most likely thing is the J2, T2 or both switches don't work right - even if they look like they do.

what do ya do if you can't tell the wire colors
--------------------------------------------------

1] swear

2] get a beverage

3] get your ohmeter and the schematic

4] mumble repeatedly - "must isolate"

isolate meaning you want to try and have only one possible circuit path between the two ends of a wire segment you care about.

in the case, if you can't tell which NC switch on J2 has the YE-BL and BLK-MA wires, do this:

1] stick paper between all the NC switch contacts on the J2 relay.

2] pick a wire that may be YE-BL and dig a meter probe into the solder where the wire connects.

3] poke all the NO switch blades on the T2 relay looking at your meter for almost zero ohms. If you see something that is a few ohms+, that's probably not the wire, but a roundabout circuit path thru other devices.

when you think you found the YE-BL, does the wire on the mating blade look like it could be BLK-MA? If yes, assume you found the switch and proceed to jumper it. If not sure, you can look on the schem where the BLK-MA wire goes and try to prove it's that wire. Since BLK-MA goes to a lot of places, you'd probably need to punt isolation and just look for almost zero ohms on a place you are pretty sure about - like impulse A switch.

impulse A means the bottom switch on the impulse cams. That still leaves you with 2 wires on 2 blades, but one is BLK-MA and one is WH, so hopefully you can tell the difference. If not, try them both looking for almost zero ohms.

1 week later
#47 2 years ago

Haven’t forgot about this One. Not yet anyhow. Thanksgiving finally over and guest are back home. Time to get back on tackling this issue.

May have sold the game as is. But would love to get it fully working before they pick it up (plays fine in multi player again). Just not single games.

I did before the break alligator clipped one of the normally closed switches (only 2 there) on J2. Jumped that to a blade on T2 and could get the BPU to fire (while the score motor was manually rotated to hold Impulse A closed.

Not sure what that tells me tho ? Looked at solder connections at both ends and they look fine. ???

I’ll get my meter out today and check continuity to isolate the exact wire and check back

#48 2 years ago

the logical thing when a 2+ player game works fine is the T2/J2 path in the post 28 schem doesn't work. That circuit path is only used in a 1-player game.

find/jumper the J2 switch closed and play a 1 player game normally ... yeah, that switch is supposed to already be closed and may look ok, but that doesn't mean it works.

if that doesn't fix the issue, then score motor disabled turn the cams until impulse A is closed when T2, Y and Z are powered. If BPU doesn't power, jumper the T2 switch (which also should be closed)

kinda obvious, but if the BPU powers when a jumper is on the blades of a closed switch but it doesn't work without the jumper, something is wrong with the switch:

1] dirty/burnt/pitted contacts or misadjusted switch
2] cold solder joint at wires
3] if the lug the wire is attached to is not part of the blade with the contact, the interface between the lug and blade can be bad. You have to take the stack apart to fix that if the problem is not loose stack screws

#49 2 years ago

You sir have finally - thru your logic- found the problem! The answer turned out to be quite embarrassing (sill a newbie here I guess)-
Grabbed my meter and set it for checking continuity - from the white wire with blue stripe (my wire colors have faded even from rubbing against each other they’ve picked up each other’s color in some spots) - traced it to the Jones plug in the back box, bingo!
Although the pin was totally engaged , that one female Jones plug insert was spread open not making contact - if I touched it with the probe tip , it would bend in enough to make full contact. So pulled all plugs, cleaned all posts and slightly bent in all female plugs - and there she was - that “seems” to have fixed it

I say seems as some games it steps thru all 5 balls on player one as it should, but still sometimes on ball one only - it would go to player 3 or 4-for one ball, then step thru ball 2 thru 5 on player one as it should.

Sometimes it would do it on ball 3. Weird and sporadic. Dirty connection somewhere I suspect? Switch, Jones plug, blade/contact on the stepper?

Again- 4 player games - 100%. No issues.

“Usually” after a 4 player game - a single player game would work best. Then maybe tail off with another player added a game or two down the road.

#50 2 years ago

white-blue?

is that the yellow-blue wire between a T2 and J2 relay switch that's faded to white-looking?

'course, that would mean T2 would need to be on the playfield or in the head since J2 is on the bottom board. If I would have looked at the ipdb pics better, I'd have seen T2 was in the head ...

since the plug connections aren't drawn on the schem, you have to know where all the pieces are in the game or hope someone has provided high res pictures so the labels are readable.

intermittent problems are not so fun to find. If the game is screwing up on a particular ball, then suspect the wiper <-> rivet contact on the ball count unit at the problem ball positions. In reality tho, you just take the wipers off and clean all the rivets so they are shiny and unless rivets are damaged, you assume that eliminates the wipers as a source of the issue.

on the post 28 schematic:
- the T2/J2 circuit path is not used when playing 2+ players.
- AND the T3/J3 circuit path is not used when playing 3+ players.
- AND T4/J4 is not used when playing 4 players.

in 4 player, only the 2B path is used, so if there's issues on the Tx/Jx switches or the ball count wipers, you won't see them in a 4 player game.

if the problem only happens in a 1 player game, then it could be T2/J2, T3/J3 or T4/J4 is flaky or the BCU wiper control of T2-T4

if the problem happens in a 2 player game, could be T3/J3 or T4/J4 or the BCU control wiper of T3-T4

if the problem happens in a 3 player game, could be T4/J4 or the BCU wiper control of T4

and, of course, the plug connections between Jx and Tx

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