(Topic ID: 9825)

Playfield Light Help - Im stumped

By Steve80

12 years ago


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  • 43 posts
  • 13 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 12 years ago by pinmike
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 12 years ago

I'm a novice, and I'm learning the hobby slowly. I have a WCS94 machine. The ~12 out of the 15 right side playfield lights are not working. Only the 3 upper pop bumper lights are working. I have eliminated it from being a fuse problem since 3 lights on that fuse work and I also switched fuses to triple check it. I've looked around at the wiring and unplugged most of the connections that are on that same circuit to no avail. Can anyone provide me some type of diagnostics I can do or common reasons why a group of lights on the same circuit would all be out? The are all the same color wires and seem to be related in some way.

Thanks in advance for any responses. Hopefully some day I'll be in a position to offer help to others.

Steve

#2 12 years ago

Sorry I can't help but the cavalry will arrive shortly.

#3 12 years ago

Are these general illumination lamps or are these lamps under an insert?
Have you changed the bulb? Just asking.
If GI then look for a loose or broken wire. Start with the 3 lamps which do work and follow the wires to next lamp in the daisy chain. Should find it at the first one which doesn't work.

#4 12 years ago

I think he's talking about GI's. (Hopefully you checked the bulbs first.) These are daisy chained. Follow the string and see if any wires came loose. If you have a DMM you can check continuity between sockets. Also check the GI connector. (i don't know the # off hand. hopefully you have the manual) Could be burned, loose, cold solder joints etc. There's a good chance the pop bumper lights are on a different string.

Are you sure the fuse you replaced didn't blow again? If it did you have a short somewhere in that string.

#5 12 years ago

Yes these are general Illumination lamps. I have not changed all the bulbs cause there is about 13 of them out. The 3 lights that work (pop bumper) are on the same circuit, but I don't know if they are daisy chained together.

I'm sure the fuses are good and didn't blow again. I pulled the fuse and the pop bumpers also went out. Then I switched the fuse with the left side and got the exact same result - only pop bumpers worked.

I'll try to follow the chain again. I've already done that and checked all the connectors. I think the entire chain is out, but I'll go back and look again.

#6 12 years ago

If those lights are in the same string as the pop bumpers then your problem is most likely on the playfield. You must have a break between the pop bumper lights and the first one that is out.

How did you check the connector? Even if its not burnt your problem could still be there. If you wiggle it do they come on? If so might be cold solder joints. Some of the traces from those pins might also be bad, you can check continuity there.

#7 12 years ago
Quoted from hawkeye11:

you can check continuity there

+1,If fuses are good and connectors are good then check Continuity is what you need to do

#8 12 years ago

First off, thanks a ton for the responses so far.

1)Fuses are good, I am sure of that.

2) I don't know about the connectors. I unplugged the plugs attached to the boards that have plugs (I assumed those are connectors). But in unplugging and plugging back in I don't know for sure if they are bad. I looked them over, but I don't know what bad looks like. Any help here would be great. For now I am assuming they are ok (could be a bad assumption)

3) So if I assume that the connectors are good (which I am not sure of), then how do I check continuity? I don't think the pop bumper lights are directly connected to the rest of the lights on that fuse. I still have to check that.

Hawkeye, what do you mean by playfield? Do you mean something on top and not underneath?

#9 12 years ago

Any more thoughts?

#10 12 years ago

The GI is a simple circuit if you are in fact talking about GI lights....

There are five of these...The Right side playfield is GI #2.

The fuse for GI #2 is F109. The ground wire is White/Orange.

Lift your playfield and identify all the lights that are off. Do they all have a White/Orange wire, including the pops?

IMPORTANT: The manual identifies playfield TOP as GI #5, which has a different color wire and a different fuse. The Pops may be on this GI, not where you are thinking and you've been chasing a ghost thinking they are on the same.

So, you need to verify the color wires on the pops and on the lights that are out to continue. From there we can tell you the exact pin on the connector, etc. to troubleshoot. On WCS94 it used transistors for the GI strings, so your problem could be fuse, connector, transistor, etc. I'm going to guess your pop bumpers are on a different GI and so everyone's (including me the first time I read your symptoms) been going down the wrong path.

#11 12 years ago

I bet it's a cooked GI (general illumination) connector. unless you are talking about insert lights (the lights under the playfield)

The GI connectors experience a lot of heat and the metal can expand and lose contact or corrode faster from the constant electrical current running through them.

Download the manual here

http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/2811/Bally_1994_World_Cup_Soccer_Manual.pdf

then pore through it and see if you can find the GI circuit, then check that connector. On my Bride of Pinbot, it is behind the speaker panel on the bottom left of the largest board in the backbox.

#12 12 years ago

Im certain it is not fuse #109. I have replaced it and am still experiencing the same issues.

All of the lights that are out are indeed on the GI #2 and have orange/white wires. I've traced those wires and they do go down to the pop bumpers. They are soldered to a metal strip that is stapled to the bottom. The metal strip goes up into the playfield and I lose sight of it. It seems the lights on the pop bumper are also on the same strip or orange white wires.

I have the manual and I am troubleshooting.

These lights are GI lights that light up the right side of my playfield.

Do you think the issue is in the backbox? I've done my best to fiddled with the wires/connections with the power running to make sure it isnt a loose connection.

Thanks again guys!

#13 12 years ago

The Orange/white string of lights are hooked into J120 on the backbox. I unplugged that circuit on the backbox board (the largest one) and the pop bumper lights also went out.

#14 12 years ago

I know you mentioned that you did not replace all of the bulbs, but did you try just one or two? I know it sounds insane, but I've heard of people having an entire playfield out and it turned out they were all simply burned out. Stranger things have happened!

If they aren't burned out, I agree with the others that there has to be a break in the chain somewhere. Do you have a continuity checker, either a dedicated one or on a DMM? If not, that's one of the first tools you should buy if you are planning on working on these crazy machines. They are super easy to use and are a necessity.

#15 12 years ago

If one light goes out (the first in the string) do they all go out? I have not changed any bulbs because the likelihood that all 12 bulbs burned out at the exact same time on the same string are nearly impossible.

#16 12 years ago
Quoted from Jediturtle:

I know you mentioned that you did not replace all of the bulbs, but did you try just one or two? I know it sounds insane, but I've heard of people having an entire playfield out and it turned out they were all simply burned out. Stranger things have happened!
If they aren't burned out, I agree with the others that there has to be a break in the chain somewhere. Do you have a continuity checker, either a dedicated one or on a DMM? If not, that's one of the first tools you should buy if you are planning on working on these crazy machines. They are super easy to use and are a necessity.

Thanks Jedi, can you recommend a continuity checker?

#17 12 years ago

Hint, when everyone is telling you to check the bulbs first, it really isn't a hint. You could have shorted the string somehow and blown the bulbs. Usually they all blow in a string but I have had a couple which didn't for whatever reason.
If the bulbs are ok and some in the GI string are lit, then there is a break in the connection directly after the last working lamp in the string. So, physically check all the solder points starting from the working lights.

#18 12 years ago
Quoted from SealClubber:

Hint, when everyone is telling you to check the bulbs first, it really isn't a hint. You could have shorted the string somehow and burnt out the bulbs. Usually they all blow but I have had a couple which didn't for whatever reason.

I will do that next! I would have done it first, but it seemed implausible they all would go out. I guess is something shorted and knocked them out together it makes sense. Can I just replace one bulb and if it doesn't work assume that it is something else causing the problem?

#19 12 years ago

The more info you can provide about what you were doing before it happened the better. Was it happening for a while or something that just occurred after you changed some bulbs out in that line? If it is the later check to make sure all the solder joints on the ones you changed/touched are sound.

Quoted from Steve80:

I've done my best to fiddled with the wires/connections with the power running to make sure it isnt a loose connection.

I would power it off and re seat (not just wiggle or push down take it out and re seat em) all the connections on the back box that go to the GI lighting.

#20 12 years ago
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

The more info you can provide about what you were doing before it happened the better. Was it happening for a while or something that just occurred after you changed some bulbs out in that line? If it is the later check to make sure all the solder joints on the ones you changed/touched are sound.

I turned it on to play and noticed that the right side was dark. There was no moment that it happened that I know of. I do have a 4 year old son who plays it, so I don't know if something happened while he was playing it. I didn't use to let him play without me, and maybe I go back to that.

#21 12 years ago
Quoted from Steve80:

I do have a 4 year old son who plays it, so I don't know if something happened while he was playing it. I didn't use to let him play without me, and maybe I go back to that.

I really doubt it was something a player did I wouldn't worry about him playing it alone. I was more inquiring about if you were working on a certain area when it happened or changing out bulbs stuff like that.

#22 12 years ago

My latest pin purchase had all lights but 4 out and I thought I was in for some GI troubleshooting but it turned out to be the bulbs, all of them. Hopefully you get lucky and replace some bulbs.

#23 12 years ago

What should I touch the continuity tester to? Should I do it while the machine is on?

#24 12 years ago

What you need is a toner (fox and hound) if you can't find the wires. That generates a high frequency signal on the wire on one end, and your wand or toner is able to detect the signal through the insulation of the wire....

But first, let's do a much easier test. With game on.

With your meter turned on AC, put your black lead on the orange/white wire of the pop bumper (we know you have a good ground here). Put your red lead on the other wire of the pop bumper. You should read 6.3V. Now, leaving your black lead, start to move your red lead to each socket. If you have 6.3V then the voltage trace to that point is good. Do that all the way down the line.

Now, switch. Put your red lead back on the other wire of the pop bumper and move your black lead to each socket. See if you have 6.3V.

That will tell us whether you've lost ground or voltage to the other GIs, and if you have partial readings and then they stop, where the break in the wire is.

#26 12 years ago

Thanks Robert, Dude, Seal, Jedi, Hawkeye!

I'm making progress on isolating the issue.

I changed out a bulb and verified that the one that I took out worked, so it is not a bulb issue- thanks Seal!

The pop bumper lights are indeed connected to the same chain as the lights that are out (White and Orange wires).

I have a multimeter, but I'm not very good with it and Im still trying to figure out how to use it.

I do get a reading when I touch it to the pop bumpers. But between the pop bumpers and the lights that are out there is nothing but loose wire (which I have inspected). At the first light there is no power coming.

Of the 13 lights that are out, 11 are GI and the other 2 are sink hole and an insert light that are on the same string.

#27 12 years ago

upload a picture

"I do get a reading when I touch it to the pop bumpers. But between the pop bumpers and the lights that are out there is nothing but loose wire (which I have inspected). At the first light there is no power coming."

Are you saying you can't find the end of the wire that touches the socket?

#28 12 years ago

Just replace the bulbs. I had a problem and tested the bulb with meter and it was good, looked good, but would not work. It was the first of the chain. The way it was sitting in the socket made the filament fall down, the way I was holding it to test the filament was touching. I changed resistors and did not need to, and took me a few days of tracking and with the help of robertmee.

#29 12 years ago

So, If I'm understanding correctly, which honestly I'm having a hard time following your explanation, you don't have a power wire to the next socket? Each light socket should have two power wires on it and two ground wires on it, except for the last one in the chain.

The first one in the chain will have power/gnd from the MPU. The first one will then have a second power/gnd wire leaving that socket and going to the next one. The next one has that same wire as the incoming power/gnd, and then another pair leaving to the next socket, so on and so forth.

So, are you saying the next socket doesn't have the power wire on it from the pop bumper socket and that there is a loose wire in between?

#30 12 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

So, If I'm understanding correctly, which honestly I'm having a hard time following your explanation, you don't have a power wire to the next socket? Each light socket should have two power wires on it and two ground wires on it, except for the last one in the chain.
The first one in the chain will have power/gnd from the MPU. The first one will then have a second power/gnd wire leaving that socket and going to the next one. The next one has that same wire as the incoming power/gnd, and then another pair leaving to the next socket, so on and so forth.
So, are you saying the next socket doesn't have the power wire on it from the pop bumper socket and that there is a loose wire in between?

Sorry Robert. I'm very ignorant and trying to learn. There are 2 wires that are coming and going to every light that is not working. A solid orange and an orange and white wire. The connectors are holding the wires but there is no exposed wire (that seems to be the norm).

I have verified that the pop bumper lights that are working are connected to the same chain.

I have also diagrammed the daisy chain.

I'm still firing bullets and hoping that I hit the mark. Thanks again for the GREAT support from this board!

#31 12 years ago

Been away for awhile, was hoping we would have got this fixed. My thinking here is that if those pop bumper lights are on the same string then you have a break in the daisy chain, bad bulbs or bad sockets. The last two would be almost impossible. Nothing else I can think of that would cause part of a string to go out. Do you have a DMM to check continuity?

#32 12 years ago

It sounds like one of the two wires between the pop bumper and the first dead light socket does not have a good connection or is broken. The bad connection could be at either the pop bumper or the 1st dead socket.

Do the pop bumper wires go directly to one of the dead sockets? All it takes is one loose wire and the lights would not work. That is probably all that is wrong if you had it working previously.

#33 12 years ago

I FOUND IT !!!!!!!

Many many thanks too all the support from this group. Its really nice that you all take time out of your busy lives to help a stranger. It was a orange/white wire that had come loose as most of you suggested. It was buried behind lots and lots of wires.

Now I need to know how to re-attach it without taking the entire pinball machine apart. It looks like a ground wire but I'm not sure. Is there a method to the solid color wires carrying live current at the multi-color being ground wires? Do I need to reattach it to the same spot. I touched it to a few spots nearby and the string came back on.

#34 12 years ago

I am pretty sure that the orange-wht wire is the positive and the all orange wire is the ground.

#35 12 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

I am pretty sure that the orange-wht wire is the positive and the all orange wire is the ground.

Nope.....Orange-White is the wire from the transistor....Hence it is the ground wire. You need to attach it to an Orange-White wire. If it came off at the pop, resolder it there. If it came off at the next socket and it is still attached at the pop, then resolder it onto the next socket. I'll draw a diagram and attach it in a minute.

Regardless, both wires carry current when the circuit is completed. But it's very low.

FYI...In the general industrial world, solid wires usually indicate power, striped wires (called traced wires) indicate ground. The usual exception is that an earth ground wire may be solid green.

#36 12 years ago

Here is a quick diagram showing how this circuit works and what you need to do to repair

GI.jpgGI.jpg

#37 12 years ago

I was pretty sure I saw in the manual that the all orange wire was the return wire and the orange-white was the drive wire.

They showed the orange wire connected to ground from the transistor.

Ofcourse a ground wire carries current as a return (hence the negative polarity).

#38 12 years ago

The drive wire is the wire from the driver board....It is switching ground. Page 3-5 of the manual.

#39 12 years ago

So how do I solder this back when its buried deep behind wires in a peculiar position on the under side of my playfield?

#40 12 years ago

You do know how to raise the playfield vertically and lean it against the backbox, correct? At that point, the pf is easily accessible as are all the wires. Just pull the wire out of the bundle and resolder it to where it belongs. I don't understand your dilemma. Don't tell me you've been working all this time with the playfield supported on the legs at the front

#42 12 years ago

Yes, I have it vertical

Maybe I just need a lesson on soldering - I'm a newbie. The hot solder is hard to place when you are working vertical. I'm not much of a technician so I have been very very happy the last few hours that I even figured this out!!

#43 12 years ago
Quoted from Steve80:

Yes, I have it vertical []

Maybe I just need a lesson on soldering [] - I'm a newbie. The hot solder is hard to place when you are working vertical. I'm not much of a technician so I have been very very happy the last few hours that I even figured this out!!

Always Practice first and remember not to let solder drip into the cabinet.Solder drip landing on other things can sometimes cause trouble.Lay down a towel

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