(Topic ID: 30084)

Playfield Dimple Reality Check

By vid1900

11 years ago


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#151 6 years ago

Dimples are normal. Every game will have dimples. What is a little concerning is how deep some of the dimples seem to be getting. People are starting to use the term "crater" to describe the deeper dimples, and those seem to be more common than ever now. I don't know what's going on. Faster games? Softer wood? Softer clearcoat? Whatever it is, there's definitely a difference in the depth of dimples these days.

#152 6 years ago
Quoted from Leveeger:

But I got the opportunity to discuss with a well known French restorer, and we both deeply examined a MB pf which has been operated for a very long time and we seen no dimpling at all...

That's because it was operated for a very long time.

The billions of dimples have mashed the playfield down into a homogeneous surface.

BUT, don't take my word for it, there is a NOS MB playfield on Ebay right now. Buy it, do a playfield swap, and play it for a month.

Then we will have something to talk about, lol.

Quoted from Leveeger:

Of course with all Stern issues with their last pins, we were here (in France) wondering about plywood origins (China?)

The ones with the normal shooter lanes have wood from Canada.

The ones with the many layered shooter lanes have wood from the the Baltic region of Europe, and look like this:

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Quoted from Leveeger:

and why deep dimpling (Stern) was appearing on some pf and not on others

Every playfield (except maybe Elektra and Orbitor1) gets dimples, deep and shallow. No way around it, because a steel ball is harder than any wood known to man.

Here is a SOLID STEEL magnet core.

It already has tons of dimples on it, in just a few weeks of play.

If a piece of solid steel is getting dimpled from the hardened pinballs, what chance does a piece of wood have against dimpling????

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Quoted from Leveeger:

Is the CC has really a protective aspect regarding dimpling?

Nope.

Your car has a Clearcoat.

If I drop a pinball on it, it's going to dimple. The clearcoat cannot save it.

Clearcoat is flexible because we don't want the paint chipping off your car every time there is hail.

Pinball **restorers** who have mixed up clears with extra hardener have found out later that the clear cracks. Any auto guy could have warned them....

==========

So wise up guys, it does not take 10 pages of discussion to see that STEEL IS HARDER THAN ANY WOOD.

If you guys find some wood that is harder than steel, let me know, and I'll make a guitar out of it.....

#153 6 years ago

Sorry, I call B.S. if that's the case shouldn't my documented HUO STtng with 1092 plays. That launches balls from cannons directly at the playfield. Look like this BM66?
Instead of how it actually looks? A few minor dimples here and there. Only barely noticable at a certain light. And mostly by stand up targets. But not major crators all over the place.
And I have added more dimples while playing it. But they look nothing like a modern Stern's playdough.
Because you can't tell me it's entirely evened out after just over 1000 plays.
Or that all playfields are equal.

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#154 6 years ago

^ You are joking right? ^

Look at the SOLID STEEL magnet core.

See how it's starting to become dimpled?

If solid steel is dimpling under those hardened steel balls, how could the maple wood fare any better ?????

What wood is harder than solid steel?

LOL

#155 6 years ago

There is a lot of different types of steel. That magnet core is clearly not as hard as the ramp flap. Why no dimpling on the flap, is it not SOLID STEEL. There are many factors to this discussion. This theory that it all just balances out when everything is dimpled has some flaws.

#156 6 years ago
Quoted from Darscot:

Why no dimpling on the flap, is it not SOLID STEEL.

Of course the answer is that the flap is tempered spring steel.

That is the reason that when you compress a spring, it returns to it's original shape without deformation.

#157 6 years ago

My point is your very loose with science. All things are not created equal and there is plenty of evidence that playfields are of different hardness. Just like some solid steel is not really that hard at all and some wood is very hard. Your throwing the most general of arguments in the name of science.

#158 6 years ago
Quoted from Darscot:

Why no dimpling on the flap, is it not SOLID STEEL.

Neither is trampoline material, yet when you drop a pinball on that it doesn't dent. Ramp flaps don't dent because there's give to them underneath so the energy transferred from a flying ball is absorbed by the temporary bending of the flap, and then that energy is returned to the ball upon restitution.

#159 6 years ago
Quoted from Yoko2una:

Neither is trampoline material, yet when you drop a pinball on that it doesn't dent. Ramp flaps don't dent because there's give to them underneath so the energy transferred from a flying ball is absorbed by the temporary bending of the flap, and then that energy is returned to the ball upon restitution.

It was a rhetorical question in hopes of making a point that material comes in a variety of hardness. I was also making fun of the capitalization of SOLID STEEL to show that the choice of case does not in fact make the steel harder or the argument more sound.

#160 6 years ago

This is what I posted in another thread. All playfields are not created equal:

Not all the way finished, but using a rebound tester, and configuring for somewhere between hardwood and bronze, I got some interesting results. The problem is trying to get a reading through the clear, which is obviously changing the hardness of the material.
Average of 5 readings just above the valley on the shooter lane. HB is the unit of measurement, but it a complicated answer as to what the scale exactly is.
MMR: 119 HB
LOTRLE: 178 HB
TSPP: 138 HB (mini playfield was 153 HB)
TH: 163 HB
WOZ: 184 HB
I will do a GB and a MET On my way back from dinner and will update the results.
Updated list with more games:
MET: 157 HB
GB PRO: 92-104 HB (92 was at shooter lane, 104 was highest result elsewhere on the untouched portions of the playfield, 3 ghosted inserts)
NGG: 181 HB
TOM: 170 HB
AFM: 177 HB
TRON: 155 HB
GB PRE: 133 HB
ST PRE: 161 HB
Updated: With the updated results, especially with the ghosted one, it's pretty clear whatever they are doing with the wood has an effect. I checked the GB PRO all over, just to make sure I wasn't getting an erroneous reading. There was also a visible difference between the softer games and the harder games as far as playfield quality and condition. I don't really know what the fix is or what any of this really means as far as a solution, but at least their is verifiable data from a calibrated test device that we can go off. Also, we do rent this gear out, so stern is more than welcome to grab some equipment for their QC shop if so desired.
So far I was really surprised by the vast differences in hardness, as a typical steel pinball would be in the 450 HB range the way the unit is configured. Keep in mind, these were the average of 5 readings from the same spot (I did some reference checks around the playfield and all results were within 5%). I always thought my MMR had some funky looking dimples, but nothing out of hand. I do Now know why my LOTR has always looked perfect, even after hundreds of plays, and it has something to with it being "harder" would be my guess. Either way, take what you will from the data, but it's not everyday you can use a $10k hardness tester for a god damn pinball playfield (I think I crossed a line of being "too into" the hobby and need to step back. Haha)

#161 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

If you guys find some wood that is harder than steel, let me know, and I'll make a guitar out of it.....

Talk about being able to play some "heavy METAL"...

Quoted from Darscot:

My point is your very loose with science.

vid1900 is "loose" in general...but that in no way precludes him from being one of the most respected resources in this joint.

#162 6 years ago

Let's bring some unrestored playfields to Expo, lets bring a Janka Test rig, and lets do a simple demonstration.

I have a wood moisture meter (so we can compensate for older dryer Maple) and a digital depth scale.

Then we can silence the science deniers once and for all.

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#163 6 years ago

I have an old Gottlieb Pioneer that doesn't have one dimple in it

#164 6 years ago
Quoted from 0geist0:

I have an old Gottlieb Pioneer that doesn't have one dimple in it

Bring it for science!

#165 6 years ago

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#166 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Let's bring some unrestored playfields to Expo, lets bring a Janka Test rig, and lets do a simple demonstration.
Then we can silence the science deniers once and for all.

Seriously please do we're all sick of hearing aboot this

#167 6 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Seriously please do we're all sick of hearing aboot this

Exactly.

Anyone that has a playfield that does not have any dimples in it, let's actually test it.

The testing will be done under the apron, so no damage will be visible if you ever sell the game.

If we pay for his trip and his hotel room, I'm pretty sure I can get a German violin maker to come and do the unbiased testing. He uses Maple every day, so he really knows his stuff.

#168 6 years ago

It won't solve anything though. We'll just finally accept that normal dimples are, well, normal. The real question is: why are we seeing deeper dimples? I've had NIB or low play Sterns going back to Lord of the Rings up to Ghostbusters. There's a major difference in dimpling depth between older games and newer games. There is a difference.

#169 6 years ago
Quoted from jar155:

The real question is: why are we seeing deeper dimples?

We will test exactly that.

It takes 1450 lbs of pressure to press a .44" steel ball, .22" deep into a piece of of Sugar Maple.

If new playfields require that same amount of pressure, then we know that it's just somebody's imagination.

If new playfields only require 60 pounds of pressure, then we will know that they are made of Balsa wood.

#170 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

We will test exactly that.
It takes 1450 lbs of pressure to press a .44" steel ball, .22" deep into a piece of of Sugar Maple.
If new playfields require that same amount of pressure, then we know that it's just somebody's imagination.
If new playfields only require 60 pounds of pressure, then we will know that they are made of Balsa wood.

Didn't Procrastinator already perform a similar test and report the results above. I'm all for more data but the data at hand already shows us there is an issue.

#171 6 years ago

Dimpling is normal. Happens to all playfields to some degree.

But Stern is cutting costs & using cheaper materials now. Hence more frequent/faster/deeper dimpling on new games. Stern doesn't make their playfields like they used to. And since profits have taken priority over build quality, it's not that shocking.

That's how I see it.

That new Batman66 playfield looks appalling.

#172 6 years ago
Quoted from Darscot:

Didn't Procrastinator already perform a similar test and report the results above. I'm all for more data but the data at hand already shows us there is an issue.

We have to measure our dimples using the JANKA Test.

That's how the hardness of wood is tested.

Bouncing balls is interesting, but that won't let us test these playfields that people say don't dimple.

The Janka test is used through out the entire world - we need to keep with the standard for wood testing.

#173 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

We have to measure our dimples using the JANKA Test.

Which is far superior to the JANKY Test.

#174 6 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Which is far superior to the JANKY Test.

That has been my experience......

#175 6 years ago
Quoted from 0geist0:

I have an old Gottlieb Pioneer that doesn't have one dimple in it

It's obvious that the 200,000 plus plays has beat it into a nice smooth surface.

Super exclusive ad from the Pinside Marketplace!
#176 6 years ago

Every playfield I've ever dropped a pinball on from a height of 300mm has left a dimple of 4.2mm diameter. From The Shadow and Tommy, to LOTR and Aerosmisth.

#177 6 years ago
Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

But Stern is cutting costs & using cheaper materials now. Hence more frequent/faster/deeper dimpling on new games.

Can you prove this scientifically?

Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

And since profits have taken priority over build quality, it's not that shocking.

You have to put profit first in a business, or like over 600 pinball companies in the last century, you go under.

#178 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

We have to measure our dimples using the JANKA Test.
That's how the hardness of wood is tested.
Bouncing balls is interesting, but that won't let us test these playfields that people say don't dimple.
The Janka test is used through out the entire world - we need to keep with the standard for wood testing.

It is, but not with a clearcoat on it.

Quoted from vid1900:

We have to measure our dimples using the JANKA Test.
That's how the hardness of wood is tested.
Bouncing balls is interesting, but that won't let us test these playfields that people say don't dimple.
The Janka test is used through out the entire world - we need to keep with the standard for wood testing.

Just to add, a rebound detector is used for hundreds of types of materials. Testing a piece of wood with clear on it is what makes tricky, but the results I got don't lie. i am sure the scale is off slightly, but results showed a variation from playfield to playfield. I know timebandit did a test with pinballs and dropping them, but it was somewhat incomplete. Wood is going to give, obviously, but unless you are testing at max force, the force may be just strong enough to create superficial dimples. Like running two cars into a brick wall at 20 mph, both may crumple the same amount since your force wasn't very high. To find out the true strength, you would need to ratchet up the force progressively to see where one car stops crumpling and the other keeps going (one car may crumple 18 inches 50 mph, while the other crumples 25 inches 50 mph).

Either way, the results I got were clear. All playfields are not created equal, and most of the old ones had a higher hardness reading. Now for the reason why, I don't have a clue. I do this for living and so am familiar with testing processes, but explanations are time consuming and expensive. However, the results are definitive that the majority of the older playfields were a higher hardness reading.

#179 6 years ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

This is what I posted in another thread. All playfields are not created equal:
Not all the way finished, but using a rebound tester, and configuring for somewhere between hardwood and bronze, I got some interesting results. The problem is trying to get a reading through the clear, which is obviously changing the hardness of the material.
Average of 5 readings just above the valley on the shooter lane. HB is the unit of measurement, but it a complicated answer as to what the scale exactly is.
MMR: 119 HB
LOTRLE: 178 HB
TSPP: 138 HB (mini playfield was 153 HB)
TH: 163 HB
WOZ: 184 HB
I will do a GB and a MET On my way back from dinner and will update the results.
Updated list with more games:
MET: 157 HB
GB PRO: 92-104 HB (92 was at shooter lane, 104 was highest result elsewhere on the untouched portions of the playfield, 3 ghosted inserts)
NGG: 181 HB
TOM: 170 HB
AFM: 177 HB
TRON: 155 HB
GB PRE: 133 HB
ST PRE: 161 HB
Updated: With the updated results, especially with the ghosted one, it's pretty clear whatever they are doing with the wood has an effect. I checked the GB PRO all over, just to make sure I wasn't getting an erroneous reading. There was also a visible difference between the softer games and the harder games as far as playfield quality and condition. I don't really know what the fix is or what any of this really means as far as a solution, but at least their is verifiable data from a calibrated test device that we can go off. Also, we do rent this gear out, so stern is more than welcome to grab some equipment for their QC shop if so desired.
So far I was really surprised by the vast differences in hardness, as a typical steel pinball would be in the 450 HB range the way the unit is configured. Keep in mind, these were the average of 5 readings from the same spot (I did some reference checks around the playfield and all results were within 5%). I always thought my MMR had some funky looking dimples, but nothing out of hand. I do Now know why my LOTR has always looked perfect, even after hundreds of plays, and it has something to with it being "harder" would be my guess. Either way, take what you will from the data, but it's not everyday you can use a $10k hardness tester for a god damn pinball playfield (I think I crossed a line of being "too into" the hobby and need to step back. Haha)

The problem with all this is it doesn't appear you have determined what a change in hardness means to the size of a dimple. I have just done some messing with the formula and found that on a scale of HB from 140 to 200, the effective change in dimple size is from about 4.2mm to 3.5mm. So, on the basis of your hardness numbers alone, across the entire universe of your tests, the dimple size variation with hardness is a maximum of 0.7mm (1/36 in) diameter.

This is certainly not visible to the human eye across all the different types of dimples on all the different playfields.

#180 6 years ago

Every minute reading this thread is a minute not playing pinball.

#181 6 years ago
Quoted from pintechev:

Every minute reading this thread is a minute not playing pinball.

Every minute reading this is a minute not ruining your playfield! Or not ruining it? !

#182 6 years ago

Seasoning it.

#183 6 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Every minute reading this is a minute not ruining your playfield! Or not ruining it? !

I think you just cancelled it out!

#184 6 years ago

25 years ago in the automotive game you could spray what you like and when you like. As time passed more and more rules and regulations came to pass. Majority of my co-workers have passed, not from old age but being blissfully unaware of the products we used.

Now I know Vid is highly respected and brings plenty to the hobby. However, I'm taking a punt to say Vid has never used 2pak clear? Please correct me if wrong. The products you have no doubt always used is what's available in 1L, 5 L, 20L containers, lacquer or 2k. No need for accounts and no need to buy a minimum of 209L (55 gallons) and certainly no need for a booth. Clears we use for base colors. Clears that essentially won't kill you and are very soft.

Vid mentions guys use to add less thinners and found the clear coat crack. In any Paint mixing booth using 2pak what ever drops on the floor is there for life! We always laughed telling the new boy to clean the floor, pass him a hammer and chisel. No matter what you do it will never come off. You could throw a pinball at it and it won't crack, dimple or even know what's happened.

So my point.....you could very well clear a playfield that won't dimple or crack but you need the $40,000 booth to do it, I'm betting Stern doesn't have one. The wood might be the same as 20 years ago but it's very possible the clear has changed and 100% certain the regulations for using these products have.

#185 6 years ago
Quoted from TimeBandit:

The problem with all this is it doesn't appear you have determined what a change in hardness means to the size of a dimple. I have just done some messing with the formula and found that on a scale of HB from 140 to 200, the effective change in dimple size is from about 4.2mm to 3.5mm. So, on the basis of your hardness numbers alone, across the entire universe of your tests, the dimple size variation with hardness is a maximum of 0.7mm (1/36 in) diameter.
This is certainly not visible to the human eye across all the different types of dimples on all the different playfields.

The range was from 90s to 190s I think, I'll have to take a look. Im also not sure what conversion you are doing, but if you figured some way to equate a number with a size than that's a good reference point for people. keep in mind, as I said above, I'm not sure about the scale of the hardness numbers. As there is a test for wood, and a test for soft metals, but there isn't an exact unit (that I have seen) for testing wood with a clear coat on it. The unit I used was setup for somewhere between wood and bronze, which I figured was sensitive enough to see if there is a difference. Using your formula roughly, extended out to best and worst case scenarios, there could be well over 1mm of difference, and that's assuming the scale of my readings were correct. Also, it was only a dozen pins, so the sample size wasn't really that great.

Honestly, I'm in the camp of it's not that big a deal really, but where it is a problem is the fact the playfield with the lowest hardness numbers had ghosting. Not saying it is definitive, but it definitely seems correlated. I also believe that when people say they see "cratering" vs dimpling, there is actually a difference, as I have noticed it myself. A decade ago, I never even noticed my playfield, as it looks the same as it did 10 years ago, 5 years ago and this year. I did notice it when I had two nib pins right next to each other, and one looked like hammered dogshit, and the other looked hardly noticeable unless it was under the perfect lighting. Again, to me it wasn't a big deal, but it was different enough for me notice, and I usually couldn't give a shit.

I honestly think the truth is in the middle somewhere. I think there is a difference in playfields, hence the number of people bringing up the issue and my results. On the other hand, I don't think it's a major issue, unless there is a correlation between the ghosting and the hardness, but i don't know definitively.

The reality is, if I was able to get results that different, with a quick little test with no real background on the subject, then stern should too (hell, all the manufacturers). They have a QC dept, if they would invest $5k in a tester or have someone setup a process for them, the majority of the Issues would go away. I mean, how much does a playfield replacement cost them? I have to imagine it's not cheap, especially with the amount of swaps. If they had someone checking the playfields prior to installation, with the proper inspection, then bam, the majority of the issue disappears. Not saying it's a perfect solution, but doing something is better than nothing, as from these forums alone it's clear consumer confidence in them has dropped drastically. I hope for all our sakes they get whatever the issue is figured out, because they make great pins, and it would be nice to know your NIB pin isn't a ticking time bomb.

#186 6 years ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

It is, but not with a clearcoat on it.

It's all we got.

#187 6 years ago
Quoted from Grg:

So my point.....you could very well clear a playfield that won't dimple or crack but you need the $40,000 booth to do it, I'm betting Stern doesn't have one.

Stern does not make playfields.

They use outside contractors.

Same as Bally, Gottlieb & Williams used to when they were still in biz.

Quoted from Grg:

Now I know Vid is highly respected and brings plenty to the hobby. However, I'm taking a punt to say Vid has never used 2pak clear?

I use an OSHA inspected downdraft spray booth for 2PAC and they added a UV line earlier this year.

I've only ran 2 playfields with the UV cure so far, but I can foresee a point in the near future where that might be all I use.

#188 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Nope.
Your car has a Clearcoat.
If I drop a pinball on it, it's going to dimple. The clearcoat cannot save it.
Clearcoat is flexible because we don't want the paint chipping off your car every time there is hail.
Pinball **restorers** who have mixed up clears with extra hardener have found out later that the clear cracks. Any auto guy could have warned them....
==========
.

Sorry it was this comment that made me think you've never used the product as it's simply not true. 2pack clear will not dimple and will not crack, it's just so far from the truth.

As for a UV line you must be using a polyurethane 2 pack. PPG and Glasurit have provided UV resitant 2pack for the past 15+ years. That's exactly why 2pack was first produced because of its UV resistance.

As for 2pack the stuff is lethal, a downdraft booth is not ideal so just be sure you have NOT ONLY the right gear, air fed, extraction blah blah, but also that your "breathing" compressor is well out of the way, and you've got it well filtered.

#189 6 years ago

The hardness used by Procrastinator is Brinell (HB, BH or BHN).

Hardness testing is not only performed for wood but also on metal (rockwell, vickers, etc)... A steel ball is forced with a calibrated strengh on the material.

The size of the dent gives the hardness measure.

So the smallest the dent (or the dimpling), the hardest the material.
The hardest the pf, the less dents... or maybe the smallest. Then the more difficult to detect?

In fact it is not a problem unless you notice it or it alters the path of the ball...

I'm curious to know the old EM pf hardness in comparison of all measures done on Stern's pf by procrastinator...

Another thing, I really doubt the clear serves as a damper... According to me it's just preventing paint flaking and pf scratching... It's not protecting against shocks...

If the clear is flexible it follows the surface it is prayed on, and may dent is the wood is so... If the clear is stiff, then it cracks and flakes...

#190 6 years ago
Quoted from Grg:

As for a UV line you must be using a polyurethane 2 pack. PPG and Glasurit have provided UV resitant 2pack for the past 15+ years. That's exactly why 2pack was first produced because of its UV resistance.

???????????

UV lamps cure the clear instantly.

100% solids, baby!

1 week later
#191 6 years ago

Run the tests on the back of the playfield. Wouldnt that give a more accurate hardness assessment with no clear to interfere?

-Jeff

#192 6 years ago

Ok, you guys know way more about the science behind this than me. But, I see it as multifactorial. The clear should be treated separate from the wood. There needs to be a test on the clear on a surface that is the same across the board...unfortunately this will be very difficult with "old" clear...as you would have to apply it to the same substance as the "new" clear to test it properly. Then you have the wood...no clear, naked wood playfields. You'd have to have naked playfields from multiple years to determine if hardness is significant different between years and companies.

#193 6 years ago

I think we should just flat out ask Stern if they have changed anything with their playfields. After all, they are going to start communicating with us more now they said. I'm sure they will be glad to answer this question.

#194 6 years ago

I do agree with the not all play fields are created equal but Vid is spot on with also- I'll take some pictures of the TWD bit below:

I have two Walking Dead's one pro one premium. The premium is HUO and I've bought it brand new. The dimples are noticeable because in a year its had less than a thousand plays, basically just me at home. My pro I bought used, it was used in a craft beer pub called Tilt in Birmingham. Its had 7000 plays. the play field has been compressed by all the dimples. but actually looks fantastic (its in my work office).

However I have a few older machines:

ToM, TNG, No Fear they must have thousands of plays on them but they don't show any dimpling at all.

#195 6 years ago

Um, Williams and Bally are DIAMOND coated. You find a pinball harder than diamonds and I'll give you all my diamonds.

#196 6 years ago

I'll chime in with my personal experience for what it's worth. I have a HUO Spiderman, second owner, had 200 plays on it when I got it. Over 1500 now. Also have a HUO LOTR, second owner, had 1000 when I got it, over 2000 now. Zero dimpling on either machine. I just got a Star Trek Premium brand new in box, first new machine I've purchased. 41 plays, lots of dimpling and new dimples with every ball.
Clearly there's a difference in the hardness of the wood used. No one will convince me otherwise. Did Stern (or the playfield contractor) consciously use cheaper wood or is it just a random variance in available material? Who knows. It's not going to stop me from playing the game, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't find it really annoying. It annoys me because clearly it doesn't need to be this way as evidenced by my other two Stern games.

#197 6 years ago
Quoted from gearhead:

I'll chime in with my personal experience for what it's worth. I have a HUO Spiderman, second owner, had 200 plays on it when I got it. Over 1500 now. Also have a HUO LOTR, second owner, had 1000 when I got it, over 2000 now. Zero dimpling on either machine. I just got a Star Trek Premium brand new in box, first new machine I've purchased. 41 plays, lots of dimpling and new dimples with every ball.
Clearly there's a difference in the hardness of the wood used. No one will convince me otherwise. Did Stern (or the playfield contractor) consciously use cheaper wood or is it just a random variance in available material? Who knows. It's not going to stop me from playing the game, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't find it really annoying. It annoys me because clearly it doesn't need to be this way as evidenced by my other two Stern games.

I stopped at Cactus Jacks in Oklahoma City the other day and played The Walking Dead. It had dimples everywhere. It did not hurt the play but it sure was ugly to look at. It look it got hit with some sort of disease.

Across the aisle was a Monster Bash with a pristine play field. LOTR==lots of dimples. AFM== smooth play field.

None of my old Sterns have any dimples.

#198 6 years ago

I have a Stern F2K that has been played alot and it has no dimples in it.

#199 6 years ago

I have a Stern Orbitor1, and not a single dimple.

They just don't make 'em like that anymore.

#200 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

They just don't make 'em like that anymore.

Thankfully

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