Someone should come up with game using a wood ball and steel playfield. Problem solved on a technicality.
(Topic ID: 30084)
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Stern, 2014
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Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Someone should come up with game using a wood ball and steel playfield. Problem solved on a technicality.
Yea but then we would be hearing complaints of dimpled balls. 
Quoted from Av8:make a protector that covers every inch of the playfield
Like this? 
Someone recently did a full review here on his experience. Here:
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/playfield-protector-full-sheet-plastic
I'm probably going to go that route with my F-14 next fall/winter when I get snowed it. Too nice out this time of year to spend 4 hours a day in the shop. 
Quoted from Patofnaud:Someone recently did a full review here on his experience. Here:
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/playfield-protector-full-sheet-plastic
I'm probably going to go that route with my F-14 next fall/winter when I get snowed it. Too nice out this time of year to spend 4 hours a day in the shop.
Sun is overrated!
There are a lot of factors. The top wood ply is one. The thickness of the clear. Possibly the company that applied the coating and chemical adhesive in the DP process (it wasn't just a clear).
Here's a BSD with thousands of plays, dirty as hell, wear around kickout, etc. The playfield is nearly flawless in front of the standup targets. This was a Sun Process field, the top layer of ply is thinner than the rest of the plys, and the clear seems to be thinner as well. You don't need these ultra thick clears to protect the playfield (IMO) other than a couple of small high activity spots, otherwise it's just a thick clear to show dimples.
If you've noticed, the last two Sterns (TAV and MET) have seemed to have a lighter coat of clear (you can see the outline of the playfield inks through the clear) and the dimpling seems to be less pronounced, but there. No doubt due to the hoards of collectors emailing pics of their dimples to try and get new playfields from Stern.
There are a ton of factors, and there's no simple answer like "All playfields dimple the same; They just get so many dimples you can't see them anymore" or "Stern's playfield wood sucks, that's why they dimple..." etc. The type and layers of plywood, the type of clear and chemical adhesive, the thickness and strength of the top layer of ply in the wood (thinner the better), etc etc...
Quoted from Dawson:A buddy is trying to get me to use a epoxy 2 part clear coat over a fathom playfield? He claims it wicket hard and applys thick and is water clear , I thought it would be soft ?... I still might have the auto body guys apply an auto clear ... Anybody have any experience with epoxys ?
Epoxy 2 part clears will dimple just the same as DiamondCoat (tm)
Kitchener, ON
I'm the guy with the f-14 playfield protector. This game is fast and has many air balls, it's not uncommon to have a shot from the jagof kicker smack off the glass.
The protector sheet seems to deaden the blow of the ball on the playfield, hopefully eliminating the return of dimples on a finished playfield. It's hard to describe but the ball rolls nicer then it did on the Mylar or on the bare playfield. The sound is different the play is smooth. I'm very happy with the product.
I'm new to the hobby, so I'd love to have a pro play on one of these protectors and give a review. I can't say enough good things about it.
Sana'a
Here's a BSD with thousands of plays, dirty as hell, wear around kickout, etc. The playfield is nearly flawless in front of the standup targets.
A quick photoshop autocontrast shows that your playfield looks to have millions of dimples.
If your playfield had a gloss finish, they would even be more evident.
Quoted from vid1900:My Orbitor 1 does not have any.
hey, my O1 doesn't either. Stern must make the best playfields ever. I don't have dimples but I do have some outhole wear. 
I've said it before. If your super anal about everything and expect your machines to look like museum pieces for life. Your in the wrong hobby. Pinball gets used dirty and played. Things break and go out all the time. It's expected. No playfield is perfect, especially NOS ones. The reason they are NOS is because they had flaws in them and were never used. Hence a lot of stockpile of NOS from old games. It's just the nature of the beast, and if you can't look past things like dimples and what not, your never going to enjoy the hobby as it's ment to be enjoyed.
Quoted from vid1900:A quick photoshop autocontrast shows that your playfield looks to have millions of dimples.
If your playfield had a gloss finish, they would even be more evident.
Lol I think if you have to zoom in and use photoshop filters to detect them then they are pretty darn minor. I mean, you can detect some extremely subtle depressions with the glare on it in person, but nothing in the realm of what new playfields do, nor close to that MM playfield you pictured. Actually, in person with the naked eye this bsd playfield looks incredible and nearly flawless in that high, high impact area prone to dimples.
Quoted from mechslave:Actually, in person with the naked eye this bsd playfield looks incredible and nearly flawless in that high, high impact area prone to dimples.
That's what were all talking about, the more dimples you get, the more invisible they become.
Quoted from mechslave:I mean, you can detect some extremely subtle depressions with the glare on it in person, but nothing in the realm of what new playfields do, nor close to that MM playfield you pictured.
That MM has had very little play and has been in storage for most of its life.
Because it still has good gloss, and little play, you can see thousands of dimples.
If your BSD still had it's factory gloss, it would be much easier to see.
3 months later
Quoted from Pafasa:Cant wait to start dimpling my CPR Firepower playfield!
I was just looking at this last night. When I finished my playfield swap, I waited the 30 days CPR recommends for it to cure. But even after waiting, I started to notice a few dimples when I played. I was a bit concerned at first, but figured it was still 100x better than the original playfield, so I wasn't going to let it bother me. Since then I've probably put several hundred games on it. Last night, I was looking to see the dimples, and just like Vid has said, it seems all those dimples have started to even out - my CPR Firepower playfield still looks awesome and plays FAST.
My Metallica LE playfield is showing signs of dimpling, only owner purchased NIB.
...and you know what? I DONT CARE. As discussed here in thourough detail, its unavoidable unless you don't play your games. If you own pinballs and don't play them... well maybe its time for a new hobby (VGA graded sealed video games perhaps?)
Perhaps we could use chrome pingpong balls. This would certainly solve the dimpling problem! 
Quoted from SunKing:I was just looking at this last night. When I finished my playfield swap, I waited the 30 days CPR recommends for it to cure. But even after waiting, I started to notice a few dimples when I played. I was a bit concerned at first, but figured it was still 100x better than the original playfield, so I wasn't going to let it bother me. Since then I've probably put several hundred games on it. Last night, I was looking to see the dimples, and just like Vid has said, it seems all those dimples have started to even out - my CPR Firepower playfield still looks awesome and plays FAST.
Mine is plenty cured by now and still not installed! 
One of these days........
3 months later
Because someone keeps posting that WOZ playfields don't dimple; here is a pic of when the playfield is new, and then when it gets it's cherry broken.
Woz playfields dimple - just like any other manufacturer (they are made by Mirco).
1 week later
Here we have a Theater of Magic, a Williams game from what many feel was the peak period of pinball craft.
Note that the dimples are behind the flipper and are actually in the outlane (click the image and really take it all in).
So all of these dimples are from balls that hopped OVER the lane guide or flipper.
The rest of the playfield looked great, because it had so many dimples it looked completely smooth.
3 months later
Quoted from Schwaggs:Vid, when you CC a dimpled but otherwise in great shape modern Stern playfield, can you level out all the dimples? Will it dimple up again?
Yes, I level out all the dimples.
But, it will dimple again.
Once you get about 10000000 dimples, it will appear to be completely flat again.
Quoted from vid1900:The Janka test (the way we determine the hardness of wood) is measured by the force required to drive a 1/2" steel ball 1/2 way into a piece of wood.
There is no wood harder than steel, so that is why they use a steel ball as a measuring device.
Maple (the wood use to make playfields) requires 1400 lbs of force to bury the ball 1/2 way.
Australian Buloke wood requires 5000 lbs of force; so in the larger scheme of things, Maple is not that hard of a wood.Jhardnesstest.jpg 9 KB
what about bamboo
Quoted from HighProtein:New Sterns like Star Trek and Mustang dimple Heavily and Fast!
Anyone else noticing this???
It only seems that way because:
1. The games are brand new, so every dimple stands out like a sore thumb. A few thousand more dimples and you will never notice them.
2. They are among the first pins to have a completely lit up playfield. They make TOM or WOZ look like most the lights are burned out.
Quoted from vid1900:It only seems that way because:
2. They are among the first pins to have a completely lit up playfield. They make TOM or WOZ look like most the lights are burned out.
They make most games of the past look like the lights went out across the valley.
Quoted from vid1900:It only seems that way because:
1. The games are brand new, so every dimple stands out like a sore thumb. A few thousand more dimples and you will never notice them.
2. They are among the first pins to have a completely lit up playfield. They make TOM or WOZ look like most the lights are burned out.
1. New or Old does not matter a thousand dimples off the bat is insane.
Thousands of dimples in no time isn't a quality clear coat.
2. These 2 games dimple like a mother F'r is my point and nothing can deny the fact that they do.
Quoted from HighProtein:1. New or Old does not matter a thousand dimples off the bat is insane.
Thousands of dimples in no time isn't a quality clear coat.
You are kind of missing the point of this entire thread.
No matter how hard a clear coat is applied to a wooden substrate, the wood below will dimple because steel is harder than wood.
-
Or if that does not make sense to you, think of it this way:
A clearcoat is 4 mils thick (.004").
If you took a piece of .004" thick steel foil, bonded it to the playfield and played a game of pinball, you would get a ton of dimples instantly. Thin steel is no match for a 1.06" diameter pinball.
Even your car hood, made of .06" thick steel (that's 15X thicker than a clearcoat), can not survive a pinball being dropped on it without denting.
Quoted from HighProtein:2. These 2 games dimple like a mother F'r is my point and nothing can deny the fact that they do.
Of course they dimple, all games do.
You only see the dimples better on those 2 games because they are the first fully lit pinball playfields ever made.
1 week later
Quoted from vid1900:Yes, I level out all the dimples.
But, it will dimple again.
Once you get about 10000000 dimples, it will appear to be completely flat again.
Until you get 10000001 dimples, then the process repeats itself 
only reason dimples look like ass, is when you have "less than 50 plays" on your HUO games. Play the hell out of them and you'll notice it less. ONce you hit 1000 games, you will be like, "what dimples?".
Have to agree to the fact that all dimple, a matter of pure logic. Steel over wood
I have a st pro with 1000 balls played, see more dimples as with other pins but can be due to fact that it is a real bright lit pin. Also the ball goes really fast on this pin and guess the higher the speed the more it dimples. It is one of those 2 or the wood is softer
And all the people who think WOZ doesn't dimple, have a friend with a 4 weeks old WOZLE and guess what, it dimples. And yes, less to the human eye as with ST but it is a dark lit pin and ball speeds are less.
1 year later
Here we have a CPR Space Shuttle playfield.
About 3 years ago I restored a dozen of these machines when reproduction playfields became available.
This game is owned by the father of an actual NASA Shuttle astronaut.
The playfield had CPR's normal 2 coats of clear, plus it got 2 coats of clear from my shop (This one got actual DiamondPlate clearcoating, you can tell by the slightly cloudy inserts).
The playfields were sanded dead flat, and then were brought up to a mirror finish.
3 years latter, this game has only 52 plays in the audits. It sits in the client's basement and seldom gets used.
If you look closely, you can see that the wavy grain of the underlying wood has become visible in the high polish of the playfield.
Why?
1. The wood has taken up additional moisture while being stored in the client's basement.
2. No one ever plays the game, so the wood fibers have never been compressed flat.
It also has a lot to do with plywood quality. Back then, 5 or 7 layer plywood was the norm, with hardwood outer layers and cheap (pine) layers inside. Today there are similar plywoods available that have 2-3 times the layers using hardwoods throughout.
Makes a huge difference..
Quoted from Jjsmooth:Yep. If I were a pf manufacturer, they would all be 5/8" Baltic birch plywd. No reason not to.
They have tried in the past.
Unfortunately, the face ply of BB is too thin, so trying to run the board through the sander to get all the inserts flush becomes a nightmare.
In addition, the Maple of a regular playfield is harder than Birch.
-
There were a few Mirco playfields floating around a few years ago that were cut from BB - you can tell by the funky shooterlane.
1 month later
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