(Topic ID: 314034)

Play Counts, why does anyone care?

By VisitorQ

2 years ago


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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by CrazyLevi
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    There are 88 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    12
    #1 2 years ago

    Just getting back into the hobby after being out of it and buying some machines to at to my collect noticing the new buzz word "Plays". LOL! Why does anyone care or think that the number of plays on a game should dictate value? I mean I can understand zero plays (NIB) vs. used but why would anyone care if the game has 100 or 1000 plays? Further more if I was buying a game from someone who only had a 100 plays on it, I would just think it sucks and they didn't want to play it.

    Condition is everything. Stop turning this hobby into something even more ridiculous than the current prices.

    #2 2 years ago
    Quoted from VisitorQ:

    Just getting back into the hobby after being out of it and buying some machines to at to my collect noticing the new buzz word "Plays". LOL! Why does anyone care or think that the number of plays on a game should dictate value? I mean I can understand zero plays (NIB) vs. used but why would anyone care if the game has 100 or 1000 plays? Further more if I was buying a game from someone who only had a 100 plays on it, I would just think it sucks and they didn't want to play it.
    Condition is everything. Stop turning this hobby into something even more ridiculous than the current prices.

    I'm largely with you on this, and never let play count stop me. I have several "HUO except for pinball shows games". However, I have found that alot of the people that have games with under 200 plays they are selling also have huge collections. It is hard to get 200 plays on a game when you have 20 machines competing for your attention. As to the number of plays, it matters less on newer machines, but many older machines absolutly show more wear and play worse once they get run up on games. A prime example is the third machine I ever had, a Data East Jurassic Park. The art did not wear out on those, but the scoops in those absolutely showed wear and the more worn out those scoops were, the easier those shots were. Conversely, on that same machine there was a depression where the ball landed and the dinosaur ate the ball. Games with a high play count had that area worn down making that shot difficult if not impossible.

    Now, for alot of people these games are a conversation piece and some folks obviously like looking at these more than playing them (which is weird). Routed games are the ones that tend to get beat up the most, and end up with all sorts of small little things messed up with them (worn flipper button areas, scratched paint from playing with issues on the field, non working and abused mechs.

    For the most part I am with you. There is very little difference between 100 and 1,000 plays, but there is most definitely a difference between 1,000 and 10,000 plays.

    Welcome to the deep end!

    #3 2 years ago

    It matters more with routed machines, because the average TIME per play will be more uniform between locations since many different people of varying skill levels would have played it.

    For a home game, plays mean nothing, because a good player might be on the machine for an hour on one “play”. Or maybe they suck or have small kids and there were 30 plays in that hour.

    For a modern stern I’d mostly care about playfield condition above all else. For older games you need to get thorough… check playfield, look for battery damage, make sure all unique parts are present, examine for hacks, etc. Couldn’t care less about play count.

    #4 2 years ago

    Condition, which is preserved through Care and maintenance, is indeed way more important. I’ve put about 1000 plays on my Wonka I got in January. But I clean the playfield regularly, have changed balls about 8 times, check posts, check under cabinet for any parts that fell off, meticulously adjusted leaf switches, and on and on. This game will look the same after 5000 plays. Compare that to someone who rarely removes the glass and there will be a big difference in quality.

    #5 2 years ago
    Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:

    I'm largely with you on this, and never let play count stop me. I have several "HUO except for pinball shows games". However, I have found that alot of the people that have games with under 200 plays they are selling also have huge collections. It is hard to get 200 plays on a game when you have 20 machines competing for your attention. As to the number of plays, it matters less on newer machines, but many older machines absolutly show more wear and play worse once they get run up on games. A prime example is the third machine I ever had, a Data East Jurassic Park. The art did not wear out on those, but the scoops in those absolutely showed wear and the more worn out those scoops were, the easier those shots were. Conversely, on that same machine there was a depression where the ball landed and the dinosaur ate the ball. Games with a high play count had that area worn down making that shot difficult if not impossible.
    Now, for alot of people these games are a conversation piece and some folks obviously like looking at these more than playing them (which is weird). Routed games are the ones that tend to get beat up the most, and end up with all sorts of small little things messed up with them (worn flipper button areas, scratched paint from playing with issues on the field, non working and abused mechs.
    For the most part I am with you. There is very little difference between 100 and 1,000 plays, but there is most definitely a difference between 1,000 and 10,000 plays.
    Welcome to the deep end!

    My GoT pro was routed since it was new until my friend bought it about 3 years ago and now I have it. It probably has well over 10K plays and aside from the shooter lane it looks pretty damn new. I think it all just depends on the game and where it's prone to wear/damage. As long as a game plays the way it should and I'm personally fine with the condition, play count has never entered my mind.

    13
    #6 2 years ago
    Quoted from VisitorQ:

    Just getting back into the hobby after being out of it and buying some machines to at to my collect noticing the new buzz word "Plays". LOL! Why does anyone care or think that the number of plays on a game should dictate value? I mean I can understand zero plays (NIB) vs. used but why would anyone care if the game has 100 or 1000 plays? Further more if I was buying a game from someone who only had a 100 plays on it, I would just think it sucks and they didn't want to play it.
    Condition is everything. Stop turning this hobby into something even more ridiculous than the current prices.

    It's like the odometer on a car.

    #7 2 years ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    It's like the odometer on a car.

    Exactly. It may or may not really matter as well. To some, it's very important and relevant. In some cases, it does not matter much at all (rare games that never come up for sale). It's also a "newer" stat. It's not really a RELIABLE number until Stern had a "lifetime earnings" audit. Everything else from all machines prior to that can be reset. Even with newer Stern's, installing a new MPU will reset the lifetime earnings... So, in the grand scheme of things, it's really only relevant on newer machines and a lot of times, it's still not relevant at all.

    I kind of use it for different reasons. Once I get close to 1,000 plays on a game, I decide to sell it or keep it at that point.

    #8 2 years ago

    Well obviously the higher the plays the more immersion there has been.

    #9 2 years ago

    It's a general gauge of the machine's condition, but as people have mentioned it depends on a lot more than plays. Someone who played it 500 times but did no maintenance may have a machine in worse condition than one with thousands of plays that was cleaned and maintained meticulously.

    It can help with someone claiming a game is HUO when it has enough plays to be routed for years though. Then again if they're going to outright lie about the state of the machine I'm sure they can find a way to reset the number of plays.

    #10 2 years ago

    When I sell games, I make sure to advertise that I'm a terrible player, so the play-counts on my machines reflect a lot of quick games and one-ball resets.

    #11 2 years ago

    I have a bad habit of restarting games after bad first ball. Play counts mean nothing on my games. I never looked at play counts when buying a machine and no buyer ever asked/looked when buying one of my games.

    #12 2 years ago
    Quoted from jawjaw:

    I have a bad habit of restarting games after bad first ball. Play counts mean nothing on my games. I never looked at play counts when buying a machine and no buyer ever asked/looked when buying one of my games.

    I see that's probably the norm but if I was buying a game off route, when possible, I would want to know how many plays were on it. Beyond that, I don't care when buying a machine.

    #13 2 years ago

    Still the best thread in Pinside history. "600 plays in the past 12 years":

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-baywatch-nearly-imamaculate

    10
    #14 2 years ago

    As the hobby grows, so do the number of folks who are "particular" about stuff, I've come to accept it.

    I was in this hobby a good 10 years before I ever realized "Shooter lane pics" was a thing.

    So these days, I don't really sweat it. You want photos of the serial numbers on the boards? Hey whatever floats your boat. Except it's 2022 and games sell in 10 minutes now so tough titty!

    I sold an AFM remake last year, and the guy demanded a play count. I told him I had done a factory reset. he didn't care, and insisted that I give him the play count and that it would be accurate. When I told him it had 40 plays on it he was thrilled!!!

    As an aside, I just got in a Liberty Bell with a play count meter that says 245,000 plays.

    There's just no fuckin way. This game is gorgeous. I don't buy it.
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    #15 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    ...Except it's 2022 and games sell in 10 minutes now so tough titty!

    While someone is asking to see shooter lane picks & play counts, someone else is asking the address to pick it up.
    Then back the the original person starting a thread on getting "screwed over."

    #16 2 years ago

    I think the number of plays on a machine is largely irrelevant, considering you could have many players with varying degrees of skill.

    I think pinball machines should be equipped with an hour meter.

    To me, how many hours a machine has had in play means more than the number of game plays.

    #17 2 years ago
    Quoted from John_C:

    To me, how many hours a machine has had in play means more than the number of game plays.

    Kids started a game and walked away after ball one. There's a few "hours" added

    #18 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    While someone is asking to see shooter lane picks & play counts, someone else is asking the address to pick it up.
    Then back the the original person starting a thread on getting "screwed over."

    “I thought we had a deal. I was just waiting for the shooter lane photos and the pics of the inside of the cabinet leg bolt brackets!!! Why is nobody’s word good anymore?!”

    #19 2 years ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    It's like the odometer on a car.

    Yes, next time I sell a car, I mean.. pin.. It's all highway miles

    #20 2 years ago

    I would count it as a blessing.. There are these people in the hobby who are not in it because they love pinball.. or working on pinball.. These are not my people, so I'm happy for them to pass over quality high play count games.

    #21 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    “I thought we had a deal. I was just waiting for the shooter lane photos and the pics of the inside of the cabinet leg bolt brackets!!! Why is nobody’s word good anymore?!”

    I miss the old days where smoking was good for you and men were men and you were legally obligated to sell your game to the first person to post "pm incoming!" and then ask you to bullshit on the phone for an hour (no texts! What is this, fortnite?!) then want you to email over 25 pictures. This whole "sell your game for what it's worth in an easy way" thing is right up there with common core math! For the birds!

    #22 2 years ago

    They way people go on about incandescent in home use, I'm going to start advertising with 'hours on'.

    #23 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    “I thought we had a deal. I was just waiting for the shooter lane photos and the pics of the inside of the cabinet leg bolt brackets!!! Why is nobody’s word good anymore?!”

    Quoted from grantopia:

    I miss the old days where smoking was good for you and men were men and you were legally obligated to sell your game to the first person to post "pm incoming!" and then ask you to bullshit on the phone for an hour (no texts! What is this, fortnite?!) then want you to email over 25 pictures. This whole "sell your game for what it's worth in an easy way" thing is right up there with common core math! For the birds!

    I did this the first few times I bought a game and tend to be more patient with first time pin buyers but totally understand why people get annoyed with this.

    #24 2 years ago
    Quoted from jawjaw:

    I have a bad habit of restarting games after bad first ball. Play counts mean nothing on my games. I never looked at play counts when buying a machine and no buyer ever asked/looked when buying one of my games.

    100%

    #25 2 years ago

    It doesn’t matter at all to me but I’ve started stating it when selling games because it apparently matters to some. Just like I mylar my shooter lane now when getting a new game. It makes no difference to me but it does to some and it’s a 5 minute job that costs $.25.

    #26 2 years ago
    Quoted from Chisox:

    Just like I mylar my shooter lane now when getting a new game.

    They beat us down. I still won't take a picture of it though; thats too far

    #27 2 years ago

    Well why wouldn't you care? It's a hell of a tool to just ignore don't you think? I do enjoy busting ppl that lie about it tho! The original owner of a GB knows dam well the "lifetime plays" audit wasn't put in until last code update so NO your 6 year old game you updated last week does not have 112 lifetime plays!

    #28 2 years ago
    Quoted from MacGruber:

    Well why wouldn't you care? It's a hell of a tool to just ignore don't you think? I do enjoy busting ppl that lie about it tho! The original owner of a GB knows dam well the "lifetime plays" audit wasn't put in until last code update so NO your 6 year old game you updated last week does not have 112 lifetime plays!

    Amen I was dooped by this one

    #29 2 years ago
    Quoted from MacGruber:

    Well why wouldn't you care? It's a hell of a tool to just ignore don't you think?!

    Very simply; no.

    Does it tell you anything aboot an old machine? Is there a diff'rence between 25k and 30k plays?
    Does it matter on a new machine? Where some PF are flaking off or pooling at 20 plays?

    It matters so little it has literally flipped on itself for new games and if anything; more plays is better.

    #30 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Very simply; no.
    Does it tell you anything aboot an old machine? Is there a diff'rence between 25k and 30k plays?
    Does it matter on a new machine? Where some PF are flaking off or pooling at 20 plays?
    It matters so little it has literally flipped on itself for new games and if anything; more plays is better.

    I like to use all the tools in my belt. How much does it matter is clearly up for debate but I'm not going to completely ignore it.

    #31 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    They beat us down. I still won't take a picture of it though; thats too far

    I can imagine someone asking you for a shooter lane pic…”nah, can’t do it” haha.

    #32 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    They beat us down. I still won't take a picture of it though; thats too far

    I will never Mylar a shooter lane.

    You sellouts disgust me !!

    #33 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I will never Mylar a shooter lane.
    You sellouts disgust me !!

    Shhhh. By not giving pictures i can just slap it on before the sale

    #34 2 years ago
    Quoted from koji:

    Yes, next time I sell a car, I mean.. pin.. It's all highway miles

    My pinballs only get played by a sweet old woman after church on Sunday.

    Certain makes and titles would actually scare me if it only had 30 or 40 plays. That means it didn't get enough play to start pooling or chipping. Almost every game made in 18 and 19 seemed to have issues.

    #35 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I will never Mylar a shooter lane.
    You sellouts disgust me !!

    I’m so tired of being shooter lane shamed, I’m done! If I don’t mylar it and wax monthly I’m a negligent mouth breather, if I do I’m a sellout. Talk about a Sophie’s choice dilemma.

    #36 2 years ago
    Quoted from Chisox:

    I’m so tired of being shooter lane shamed, I’m done! If I don’t mylar it and wax monthly I’m a negligent mouth breather, if I do I’m a sellout. Talk about a Sophie’s choice dilemma.

    Do whatever makes you happy.

    Personally, I will protect and maintain things as much as possible so they last as long as possible.

    Mylar has been great for protecting playfields over the decades, so I will put it in areas that need it.

    -1
    #37 1 year ago

    If you can say you only put 200 plays on a game, then you can be a complete and total greedy fuck, and make people pay you $10-$20 for each play you put on it when you sell.

    #38 1 year ago

    I couldn't even tell you how many plays I have on the game I just bought. Not to mention testing and tuning it I don't know many times I have resat it without playing a game.

    #39 1 year ago

    two identical games. like, microscopically identical. one has 10 thousand plays and one has twenty thousand plays. which one would you buy, if they were identical prices?

    that's why

    10
    #40 1 year ago
    Quoted from SonOfaDiddly:

    two identical games. like, microscopically identical. one has 10 thousand plays and one has twenty thousand plays. which one would you buy, if they were identical prices?
    that's why

    Yeah, that's why.

    Except pinball doesn't work that way. You don't just go down to the local outlet mall pinball store and find 10 identical machines - like, microscopically identical - on the sales rack, at the exact same price, in the exact same condition, where the only difference is play count, and pick the one with the least.

    Back on planet Earth, in real life, you are lucky to find ONE version of the game you want, anywhere near you, at the price in your budget in the condition you want.

    That's why nobody REALLY gives a shit about "play counts." If the game is in the right condition, at the right price, in the right location, nobody sane is going to pass on it because of a software audit. If it says it has 200 more plays in the audit count than you want, great, spend an extra day thinking about if you can live with that and someone else will buy it.

    #41 1 year ago

    nothing actually works that way. it's not a rational impulse but it exists

    #42 1 year ago
    Quoted from SonOfaDiddly:

    ...microscopically identical....which one would you buy...

    This is the most confusing scenario that isn't (?) a trick question I've ever heard.

    #43 1 year ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    This is the most confusing scenario that isn't (?) a trick question I've ever heard.

    it was completely hypothetical. let me ask you this: you're in my house. I have two NIB Godzilla LEs' One of them has had the top of the box cut off, the other is still fully in the box

    which one do you want, given the choice (don't try to rules lawyer me about needing to box it back up, you know what i mean )

    why do you push out of the way the product in the front of the shelf to get to the one at the back when you're grocery shopping? it's just an instinct

    #44 1 year ago
    Quoted from SonOfaDiddly:

    it was completely hypothetical. let me ask you this: you're in my house. I have two NIB Godzilla LEs' One of them has had the top of the box cut off, the other is still fully in the box
    which one do you want, given the choice (don't try to rules lawyer me about needing to box it back up, you know what i mean )
    why do you push out of the way the product in the front of the shelf to get to the one at the back when you're grocery shopping? it's just an instinct

    I have to remove it from the box to get it in my car anyway
    Although I also take the first grocery item available to me so maybe I just don't fit these tests.

    #45 1 year ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    While someone is asking to see shooter lane picks & play counts, someone else is asking the address to pick it up.
    Then back the the original person starting a thread on getting "screwed over."

    Or if I or someone ask for a games condition and then gets crickets back from the seller, I'd figure they were hiding something that would Hender a sale! All perspective I guess.

    #46 1 year ago

    i had a similar conversation with a friend about playfield dimples

    like ten years from now when someone is desperate to buy a godzilla LE they're gonna find one for sale and pay what it's priced at, not try to haggle a thousand bucks off because it has dimples. if they do, they'll miss out. so, caring about play counts isn't rational, but people still do. c'est la vie

    #47 1 year ago

    If they're really truly microscopically identical, then there's no difference. The one with 10k plays accumulated the same wear as the 20k plays, by way of longer game times.

    Realistically, they will never be that identical of course.

    Play count doesn't exactly matter by itself. But we use it as an easily-visible metric as a proxy for an expected total of wear, including invisible wear like capacitors and SSD storage and other electronics. Other metrics like ball count, flip count, play time, power-on time could also be used, with appropriate heuristics to gauge the expected correlation with wear.

    #48 1 year ago

    This was already a dumb thread but it's gone ludicrous dumb.

    ANyway I'm just gonna hypothetically go down to the hypothetical microscopically identical pinball store and pick out the Firepower with the lowest play audit just to prove to everybody how everybody hypothetically cares about play counts in situations that have no bearing to reality.

    Wish me hypothetical luck!

    (also, any game that has been played has playfield dimples so that's also a hypothetically dumb hypothetical conversation with no bearing or importance on our plane of reality)

    -1
    #49 1 year ago

    settle down grandpa

    #50 1 year ago

    I don't mind taking time out of my day to take and send requested pictures, it's when you do all that and the buyer then goes silent with no, " thanks" or appreciation, then goes silent. I had a guy go crickets on me over (slightly cloudy sheild inserts) on a sttng that was a beautiful game and under market value. The guy who bought my machine wrote a book on pinside and the village bbs about how beautiful the game was! I guess the guy who passed on my game was willing to wait for a (unicorn.) End of the day, some sales or easy and sometimes you have to go through it..lol
    I know people who won't buy games because of this and just play at bars/arcades.

    There are 88 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

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