<sarcasm>
It's pretty clear that your Duffman avatar is a derivative work of Stern's TSPP which is a derivative work of everything Williams has ever done, so what do you expect?
</sarcasm>

Maybe I was a little hasty but most of what I said still stands. I'm glad to hear it wasn't harassing.

You do understand that owning games is not a requirement of the hobby?

http://pinballmap.com/centralpa

I've got a few PM's asking for a tutorial on how I made the plastics. I made one about nine monts ago in the "show us your EM's" It starts at post 1991.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-show-us-your-em-pinball-machines/page/40#postbox

I got the whole idea from nandemoguys tutorial here:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/my-guide-to-making-your-own-reproduction-plastics

I should have made another topic for it or included it on the nademguys thread instead of the one I put it on. I just don't want to go back and re do it.

Bacon

I don't understand the purpose of this entire thread. From my vantage point there are more parts available for more game now than there has been in years. In fact the last few years of WMS still being in the pinball business didn't even have as many available parts for the games as there is now. How exactly is PPS doing anything wrong?

Clearly the OP must not have been around during the end of the 90's into much of the 2000's. Parts were mostly nonexistent and being horded and treated like they were gold.

The OP has stated that they have only been in the hobby for about 5 years. They would not have known about the past issues.

Don't worry about it. Rick has shown he is hyper-sensitive to any questions, constructive critism, concerns or anything he doesn't view as positive. That he even had to ask why you were interested shows he doesn't understand.

As the new requirements placed on CPR have shown, it is going to be far more difficult for anyone in the hobby to plan ahead when it comes to parts. It's pretty clear that PPS doesn't want any/much discussion of what may be in the pipeline (or even a way for potential licensees to determine what people want to see). PPS may have a perfectly valid reason for this, but it seems to me that, unless PPS is contracting certain vendors for parts, keeping information/discussion/questions on possible/planned reproductions out of the public area benefits no one.

I'm glad PPS is around and there certainly have to be some changes made (e.g. for them to protect their rights). But they seem to be wanting to MAKE us deal with them, rather than WANT to. And that's incredibly sad, because it seems like they are burning a lot of good will and potential resources in the process.

_{Post edited by jfh: fix typos}

Ditto.......Most of us don't care who does what or makes what, this hobby originally turned me on because I met so many genuinely nice people who went out of their way to help, it's just a series of incidents that shed light on the practices of PPS that made some of us wonder about the future of the hobby.

I couldn't agree more. I've been in this hobby a long time and there are more parts available now then ever before. And Rick has indicated lots more are coming. Unlike many others, I guess I believe him.

Indeed. Just some good communication with PPS will fix all of that and make a lot of friction between PPS and the community disappear. That's all most people want (besides the parts, of course )

Good. I will be happy when new playfields, plastic sets, bumper caps, coin doors, lockdown bars, and replacement backglasses for my 50 year old EM Williams games start showing up on PPS website.

+1

Didn't you just make an offer to buy 3 machines??

................too-many-pins
................Pinball addict

If Mousin & Space Shuttle are decent overall and you would consider $1600 CASH for the 3 machines I would be interested in all 3 of them.

Wait a minute! Acrylic plastic? Wall hanging? You've gotta be kidding!

http://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=PP&Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PPS-ROCKET-BG

Sorry to hear about your losses as of late. Hopefully the tides turn and you'll feel like enjoying your collection again.

So annoying to see people are saying that. Hello... Everyone is interested if they are cheap. Just like when people say 'if the price is right'.

This

Yeah this. Making backglasses out of plastic.

And they chose Acrylic?

Why in the world would they do that?

Acrylic is VERY brittle and breaks very easily.

Don't ask me! I just hope the Rocket I am getting has a decent original, because I sure as hell am not buying a plastic replacement.

You mean they want to run a business like a business??

edit: never mind, wrong thread.

If you think that running a niche business like a mainstream corporate one is a good idea, go for it. When I was a consultant, I saw too many businesses try to set the market, rather than respond to it and build off of it. By the time they figured that out (or went looking for help), they were already in a death spiral.

Most businesses can alienate a few hundred or a few thousand customers and still survive or even prosper. That's very risky business when those numbers constitute your entire potential customer base.

PPS needs us as much as we need them. They just haven't figured that out yet. When they realize we are all in this together and that they don't have to treat every potential part as the next product from Apple, we'll all be better off.

In the mean time, there are a lot of capable people that were determining demand and producing needed parts for the hobby who have had their passion for doing so tempered. For now, that is a loss for us regardless of what PPS would like to see on the market.

At this point I am more concerned with the quality of the parts from the people buying the rights to reproduce parts FOR PPS. Because the some of the garbage coming out of Classic Arcades is downright embarrassing in terms of quality and attention to detail when it comes to the original parts. If I were PPS and saw what they are passing off for 'reproduction' parts I would yank their license because that would ultimately reflect on me.

Haha! Why multiple emails?

Acrylic is not good for playfield plastics because it breaks easily compared to PETG. On the other hand Acrylic would work great for a backglass where it is not getting hit by the ball. Read up on it. Acrylic is more clear than glass and does not yellow like PETG and is harder to scratch than PETG. That is why it is used on top end aquariums because it is so clear even if you go very thick for strength.

I was going to point that out but you beat me to it. I used to be in the salt water aquarium hobby. I couldn't afford to stay in both hobbies lol.

Sometimes you can do that, sometimes you can't. Ramps are especially difficult to repair. My Comet's cycle jump was in total disrepair. I had to buy the new durable $80 one. I've even considered making molds of stuff, trying different materials, but I've seen the results and they often look worse than an original with a crack or section missing.

I've been machining Acrylic for 30 years.

Trust me, I know my plastics.

So some are saying acrylic plastic would be a good replacement for glass. Then why aren't all repro glasses done in plastic? I have seen one on an older Williams woodrail and it didn't look right. It looked cheap.

I believe PPS is going to be releasing more replacement parts for 90s games as many will see remakes and such and there is a good market and money can be made there, but I'm not holding my breath that there will be much if any enthusiasm about reproducing much needed items for older machines as PBresource has done for Gottlieb. If that is the case, those that want to make these parts should be given some kind of leeway to do so.

Then you should know that acrylic is plenty strong to work as a backglass.

Don't get me wrong, I would rather have glass than acrylic. If it is a case of acrylic or nothing I will take acrylic. I don't know why they made this choice other than cost. Maybe it is easier to get the ink to stick to it? I know I have had some problems with repro glass and the ink coming off just looking at it.

Guys ... at the risk of creating more controversy, let me be very clear:

a) Key suppliers have continue to provide product (CPR, etc), there is no decrease there - there may be a 'change' which is to leverage more existing WMS art, but that is a good thing (better artwork for many things)

b) We keep looking for an adding suppliers to make more things - whether that can be playfields, backglasses, metal parts, etc. Many parts supplier make parts - Blackout glass is an exampe of a new supplier (who has made mirrored glass) to start adding capability. We are 'trying' to get several new playfield mfgs who are having alot of pain getting their first playfields out, but if they do, then they will accelerate more playfields, etc.

c) We have access to more - with the IPB acquisition we have access to tooling and wms artwork films which we are busy creating new products starting just weeks ago (ex: Blackout backglass, Hurricane/Bad Cats/Jokerz Cabinet Decals, etc). We are actively doing that now, resulting in more parts that were difficult to do.

d) We have been making and continue to make more and more parts - parts in-house with our own art dept, thru vendors which supply to us, some vendors which sell direct to customers, etc. For all ranges of things.

e) We encourage people to contact us to move forward on ideas - but there are some rules (approvals, holograms, etc), and there is some business arrangement to be had - if it works great we go forward, if it doesn't then we don't.

f) So, the outlook is good - more suppliers, more parts, more access to more tooling and art.

g) We order alot of parts and make investments to get more available. Sometimes parts ROI is almost never because it takes forever to sell the amount of parts to make the money back. There are investments which take time, and some work and some do not.

h) We are releasing IPB stuff as we go thru it, playfields, BBB parts, other parts, etc - whever we find that people would want we are more than happy to sell off - stuff that was otherwise never offered.

PPS' role in the pinball role is to make parts and utilize the wms IP to help people restore games, fix games, and have access to more games. That's been pretty consistent at day one. I'm not sure where it comes from that there are less parts and less suppliers for WMS/BLY games, but I don't see that as the case, and it's not in our best interest to do 'it all ourselves' which we know we cannot do.

[email protected]

That makes perfect sense. But with older machines there are parts that nobody else will invest the time and effort to do. So if PPS won't do it, it will never get done.

Steve Young at PB resource has spent the time and effort to recreate 1000s of parts for antique Gottlieb games and many of them I'm sure were just because they were needed by a few and maybe even lost money doing so because of the low volume that ended up being sold. But they stay in business just the same.

Trust me, we do ALOT of products which do not have a market potential to justify the investment (or better reason to do something else), we do that all the time. Any of the companies that make EM parts I'm sure have a similar mix, and I'm also sure (or hope) that they are not in it to lose money - usually the only way to stay in business is to make enough money to cover your costs. We have several people (including us) who are stepping up to working on more EM related parts, only time will convince people, so I won't say much here other than we will announce parts as they are available.

rick

not much has changed ...

I am a big fan of early Williams games but am finding getting almost any part a real challenge. I know they did not put out the quantity that Gottlieb did, so I get them in as good of condition as I can.

The name is Lonnegan, Doyle Lonnegan mistah.... Oops, wrong movie.

We even made a few of the bulb scoring backglasses ... and more in the pipeline. Alot of hours to vector, and other than a few replacements and some wall hangings as they are cool art something else we had done.

I could do more output for very low demand em backglass, or electronic backglass. But my problem with Bally, Williams, & Gottlieb which I have a license is finding people to supply the art. If the title is available & there isn't a 3rd party involved it moves ahead. I have just ventured into new playfields with Star Gazer, & Seawitch.

That being said there is very little money to be made making pinball products & huge risks to produce low demand product. Usually the license holder receives a sample for free to inspect & approve, & artist is compensated for art file. Shipping glass is at own risk (my) with UPS, so expect loss at times. Also problems do arise, so loss in product & shipping to replace defective glass which happened to me this year. So far 6 that went to customers, & my inventory this year about 25. Australia is brutal for shipping & Europe is slightly better.

For Planetary Pinball, I'm stuck on bowling glass. Lucky Strike, Bowl A Strike, & hopefully Triple Strike. Jeff beat me out on King Pin, nature of the production game.

www.greatpinball.com

I have seen that, but is doing it on real glass any harder than plastic?

A couple of those titles are done on Acrylic ... really difficult to tell the difference in the game, also better to ship ... we can do them on glass, but when there are 5-10 people total that want them, it's a bit more expensive on glass. Glass is harder to make (right) than plastic - adhesion is an issue on glass, as well as getting small quantities of tempered glass that size (which is unique to a small number of games, etc).

Yes, John Greatwich is another example who we have on board as a supplier for some glasses ... as he was doing some glasses in the EM era that others were not doing.

I am just thankful for what I can get, but get a little envious when I see the quantity and quality of things that are out there for Gottliebs. But again there is a much bigger market for those. A lockdown bar for 60s Williams would probably sell well as most of those have turned to crap including one I have.

He's also been doing it for some 30 years (vs our almost 4 years), as well as inherited all of the Gottlieb parts stock as well ... there was no 'early' EM parts stock that anyone we know of has acquired unfortunately.

I know. I'm a bit of a dreamer....

This is why the only tank I keep is a freshwater tropical, much cheaper.

Pics with a tape, I need OAL and centers of tabs.
I have a box full of these I am giving to Molly on Monday.
B/W Em, sys 11, Chi Coin and some I think are off of Gotts.