total crap fest.

F Planetary Pinball.

looks like its time to start bootlegging...

if pps starts making all of those parts for fair prices, then it's not a bad thing.

Its a Monopoly at this point!!! Like Judge Dread toppers Genes price was 89$ now how much are they?? You can only buy these in one place now. I understand protective your investment, but I would have liked to see someone other than PP buy Genes rights, and parts

Wow, bring back Wayne-o... No one ever thought he'd look like lesser of two evils in comparison.

world-domination.jpg

I totally agree. I have only been in the hobby for 6 years and this has been a problem for me because I like to restore early Bally and Stern solid state games. Luckily there's no problem with Stern copyrights AFAIK. I love the Bally apron decals from Pinball Rescue in Australia. They are much more accurate than you know who's. Now I can never buy more. Total BS .

i never said they would? I said "if" they do. I was merely giving you an example of how it *might* not be bad.

I am not going to bore anyone with my opinion of the company.

It does suck, but my advice is the next time the pinball market takes a dump, buy the rights/molds/screens/etc... to the 'going out of business' stuff. It is risky at the time but it obviously can pay off in spades years down the road.

I didnt realize they effed them too. Screw that crap.

I am not sure 'you know who' is, but I bought a Paragon apron decal from an 'authorized by PPS' seller the other day and it is the biggest piece of junk I have seen since entering this hobby. Completely wrong in color, font and the layout is so sloppy it looks like it was made in MS WORD. It might have been for all I know. I guess I will just have to restore my apron by hand and see how it turns out.

I wish I had talked with Pinball Rescue a few months ago like I had planned but never got around to it.

Whoa! I think you are over reacting here. Not say that there aren't bumps in the road, but PPS is better for pinball and better for collectors than IPB no matter how you slice it. Previously all of those molds, screens, etc just sat there because the people who owned them were too incompetent to know what they had. Now at least we are already seeing an influx of new parts and the promise of a lot more to come. Rome wasn't built in a day so give a little time. IPB got 15 years and did close to zero in my book. Wayno was a little better than IPB but not much.

As for Pinball Rescue. I love those guys and it is a shame that PPS could not come to a deal with them. Perhaps the public outcry will help to soften their stance when it comes to small hobby vendors like PR. I sure hope so. This one was definitely a loss for the hobby, but on a whole I don't see PPS as bad.

I'm not an expert but I don't see how this is going to be the case. My understanding is PPS owns the control of the WMS IP so unless you are printing or creating artwork, logos, brand names, etc, aftermarket items aren't really under their umbrella unless you want to use their actual molds/forms/frames...

Assuming there are no design or function patents (which would be expired on those titles anyway) I don't see how a non-descript aftermarket ramp or a topper would be under PPS enforcement unless it said WMS or TAXI or PINBOT all over it. They will not be officially licensed WMS replacement parts but that's up to you whether you want the 'OEM' replacement or an aftermarket equivalent.

ie - you can buy 'unknown quality' aftermarket parts for a vehicle, but they can't say 'Ford' or 'Polaris' or whatever brand without their permission.

I can't speak for PPS, but, isn't in their best interest to protect the Copyrights of Bally/Williams? Also isn't it required of them as the rights owners? Again I can't speak for them, just this is my understanding of the how the rights to reproduce Bally/Williams parts works.

I don't think PPS is trying to create some type of monopoly over parts, and it seems that they have worked with other vendors for stuff to be created for games as well. In my opinion I think more parts will probably be produced because of PPS.

I realize it does'nt apply to all situations, but back in the late 90s and 2000's before there was internet, you fixed a lot of parts, and you bought a lot of used parts and assemblies and made stuff work from those parts. The only place for parts, and I didn't find it until like 1998 was PBR, from his little ads in the magazines
I think it is way more fun that way, not to mention you can save SOOOOOO much money by buying used parts on fleabay or at the shows. People make lists all year long of parts they want for when the show season starts, plus I sell about 25 used playfield parts on ebay a month (most priced less than 10 bucks).
Trust me people. Pinball collecting changes, the hobby survives.
Its not all negative. Rick paid good money for the property he owns. Anyone of you could have bought it.

pm sent

Ron, that may have been the case years ago, but you can't find a decent coin door on fleabay for less than $50. Ebay seller's have rediculous prices on beat to shit parts as of late. It would be nice to see PBR(Steve) repro some more parts.

If they know about people selling WMS stuff and do nothing about it, they could essentially lose the rights to it due to lack of enforcement.

Monster Cable goes after most anyone using the word "Monster" - while most think this is overkill, they view it as protecting their IP

In the 2000s, Monster had legal disputes over its trademarks with Monster.com, and the Discovery Channel for its show Monster Garage.[13] Monster also had trademark disputes with Bally Gaming International over its slot machines, Monster Slots, with Hansen Beverage Co. for its Monster Energy drink, and the Chicago Bears, who use the nickname "Monsters of the Midway."[15] Other trademark disputes include a 2001[17] lawsuit against Walt Disney Co. for products related to the film Monsters, Inc.,[14] and a claim against an online used clothing retailer, MonsterVintage LLC.[14] In 2004, Monster filed a complaint about the trademark application from Snow Monsters, a video website with skiing content for kids. The Snow Monsters owner initiated a lawsuit against Monster pre-emptively.[13] It has also had a trademark dispute with the job site, Monster.com.[15]

In 2006 Monster brought a suit against Monster Mini Golf, a company selling franchise Mini Golf locations throughout the US. After an unsuccessful legal mediation, Monster Mini Golf launched a grassroots campaign against Monster Cable on the Internet. As a result, Monster received more than 200 complaints from the public. Monster Cable dropped the lawsuit and agreed to pay up to $200,000 of Monster Mini Golf's legal fees.[14] In 2009 Monster Cable CEO Noel Lee said on Fox Business that the company has had to balance their trademark protection efforts with the public's point-of-view.[18]

they won't

All the crap and poor quality stuff that was second from IPB is now being sold for money money at IPB-west/ PPS. (yes, the exact same parts cost more at PPS then they did at IPB)

This is true. Lots of people with deep pockets in this hobby, and wasn't the whole thing purchased for roughly $500k? I may be completely off on that, but I thought I read that on a thread somewhere from someone in the know. If that's true, in the scheme of things in the business world, that's not much at all. Opening a small restaurant in a rural town can cost $500k.

With the, speculative, crash of game prices and the, speculative, rise of parts prices there is only one reasonable solution for those old B/W games….PART THEM OUT!! I feel complete now.

Pretty sure all things IPB were negotiated before anyone on the outside even had the chance to get involved???

How long was Stu looking for a Blackout BG so he could do the art for it? Now, about 2 weeks after Rick says he found films, he announces he'll have repro BGs (with mirroring) at Expo. Yeah, things are really looking bleak...

Keep in mind, fleabay and paypal take 13% in fees. So yes, things are priced a little high these days there.

I'm just glad PPS doesn't own the rights to Farmer John.

3624912930_01f53c36f0.jpg

The Taxi spinout ramp was re-created under a license from PPS, and Twisted Pins of Boise is one of Rick's main go-to guys for parts reproduction now.

Is there something wrong with a business that make available the products its customers want at an affordable price?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/blackout-backglass-repro
Seems like a good thing to me but what do I know.

You can bet if PPS thought "Farmer John" rights would make them money they would try to get the rights to it.

If you need a decal. Bring thr original art or part to a sign shop.
any good one should be able to repro the art and make you a nice matching replacement.
Nothing pps can do ifs its for yourself.

The issue I see is that PPS seems to value money over quality. This will lead to a situation where the people producing the parts are not going to turn out high quality but simply high volume. We will probably end up seeing low quality parts at high quality prices due to the cut that PPS will be demanding.

And it supports local businesses!

I hope this all gets worked out. It seems like the plan is to make more reproduction parts available. As long as there is good quality control and the prices aren't too out of line it should be a good thing for pinball restoration. Time will tell I suppose.

Anyone know if someone is making licensed wireforms?

THIS!!!!

You hit the nail on the head. One has to look no further than the automotive industry as case law that aftermarket parts are ALLOWED!!! Lots of these C&D letters going out are worth no more than dirty toilet paper. PPS would lose their ass on alot of this. PPS cannot legally control the producing and selling of an aftermarket parts such as ramps, flipper assembly, coils, drop targets, anything without licensed art. Even that is a grey area after so many years.

they can stop the sale of aftermarket parts that infringe their rights. That includes the artwork and the physical design of the parts if they are still protected. The taxi ramps can't be reproduced w/o a license even if the art was stripped off.

PPS cannot stop someone from making a part that is physically different that would fit in that location. If someone made a new method of entry for the ball to the top of the PF from the shooter, PPS has no recourse to stop them.

Artwork can't be reproduced because of copyright.

Most of the designs/parts made before 1994 aren't protected by patents any more.

Not true.

I am in the automotive industry. After market parts are sometimes the exact OEM part in the box with the LOGO stripped/scrubbed off. A replacement part may be of exact specification. A ramp could be produced as a replacement ramp that fits Taxi as long as it doesn't say Williams or Taxi on it.

It's not a "Taxi" ramp, it's a ramp that will fit "Taxi".

Just remake new artwork. Most of it sucks anyway, and do not use Bally/Williams logos and you'll be fine. Basic game will be easy to remake something newer and nicer. Example: Fish Tales, Road Show and so many more. Just re design a new different look and your good to go. The art work change does not effect the play of the game.

Most people prefer the original artwork. That's part of the point of restoring a game. Otherwise, you're re-theming it.

How would you feel about a Centaur with "My Little Pony" playfield artwork?

Unless there is a design or function patent that is somehow valid on said ramp, there is squat protecting that ramp as long as there is no WMS logo, artwork, or title/brand name on it.

Exactly. Brake pads, shocks, bumpers, U-joints, windshields, etc... can be bought with the manufacturers stamp of approval, or directly from the part manufacturers or from 3rd party distributors as a generic part with no approval. The only difference is the logo in many cases.

Going to court can get costly quick for both parties. Plus, the years and years of drawing it out. The attorneys are the only ones who win. Even if the rights owner won in court case get money out of a turnip is another story. Threats are just that. Plus, once it goes to a lawsuit burden of proof and damage proof falls on the person/company who is suing. It can get costly and costly fast. Something just aren't worth chasing. However, if they yell enough, hopefully everyone will stay in line. I understand copyrights and it is wrong to just out and build a machine out right and start selling them. It would be like me building and OZ and competing with Jack. That's wrong. However, who cares if some guy want to make target mods/shooter rod? Only the anal.

I know a guy who makes moulds for the auto industry, they are varied, just enough to no be the same. Unless the OEM is getting paid.

If PPS stopped licensing junk repros, that certain 'you know who' would be out of business!

I would not be so sure of the claim that most prefer original artwork is really valid and your analogy to Centaur my little pony while totally bad ass and amusing is silly.

I think many people would really love some original and possibly improved artwork for their games.

you also should think of it like the real options.

Option 1: You have broken plastics and there is no artwork made so you live with broken plastics
Option 2: An artist is willing to remake the original artwork but the PPS liscensing fee is too high so no plastics and you have to live with broken plastics
Option 3: Plastics are remad and cost $250 dollars due to liscening fee. PPS has been shown to not be real good on quality control so these remakes may/may not be entirely accurate
Option 4: New plastics of correct shape and size are made with art in a similar theme that is not copyright protected but looks badass. Due to no added fees they only cost $150

which do you choose?

If you say option 3, then what about all the times that that it not even an option?

no plastics or sweet originals of the correct shape for cheap?

Now I'm just sitting here imagining how effing rad it would be if Aurich made plastic sets for games. And drooling on my desk. You owe me a keyboard.

Take a deep breath, and take a step back. There is nothing to know just yet...

What a lot of people don't realize is that about 12 or so years ago, there were no parts for anything... and games were *cheap*, often because of it. I was offered multiple TZs early on in my 'collecting career' because they didn't have parts to fix anything when they broke. It was well known that once you had your clock board go bad, the clock wouldn't work.

Slowly at first, people came in and started making aftermarket replacements for those rare parts. We started getting redesigned clock boards, flipper boards, those horrid ball trough opto boards, and
so on. This helped to stabilize prices.

The next thing was that a while after Gene bought Williams out, certain high-demand parts became available for the first time in ages. Stuff like TAF playfields and plastics, and for the first time people could buy and fix up all parts of that blown out TAF they were thinking of getting. This was the first time that games really started to inflate in value.

Certain games, like MM have had nearly every part remade. I think that this in large part led to the spiraling upward of the price - You get a blown out routed MM, and you can make it look as nice as you want to, as long as you're willing to spend some coin to make it happen. So people did. The parts industry started booming, and between the weird Gene / Wayne stuff, a whole bunch of parts started being manufactured.

Now, *if* PPS decides to completely limit the flow of parts for machines, you'll see the prices for those machines start to sink I think. People are far less interested in buying a machine that if one part goes bad, they have a giant paperweight. They also won't buy a beat up machine if they want the nicest one and can't get the parts for it.

But we don't know yet. Gene didn't get the rights for B/W and have new stuff come out the next day. It took years for a lot of the stuff to get made, and in some cases he sold out immediately and it would take years again. We aren't in danger of losing the people that make the aftermarket boards, which is the biggest thing that could crater parts.

I think that everyone needs to take a deep breath and wait a while longer to see what happens. The price trends and PR stories are troubling, but we should see what else is happening before casting full judgment. The games you have won't drop in value to nothing, certain titles like MM aren't going to overly crash because there are parts available. We'll see what happens to those games further down the 'loved' list.

I suppose that depends upon what is actually available and how someone wants to approach a restoration. Are you trying to remain faithful to the original, include tasteful mods when appropriate, or simply get the game functional so it looks half-way decent and playable?

I'm of the school of thought to be reasonably faithful to the original, but include tasteful mods if appropriate.

If I have broken plastics, I would either just buy the reproductions (if they were available and up to par), hunt around on fleabay for replacements if available, or possibly try my hand at re-creating them. I have the graphic design and workshop skills--I would just need some of the instructions for the best technique and some materials recommendations.

However, if replacement plastics with alternate art actually improve the look of the game (though this can be subjective), sure, I'd consider it.

For instance, on Genesis, I really dislike the original translite because, well, it's rather awful. However, the alternate translite seems to fit the theme better. After a certain point, some mods are almost expect to be on certain pins because they fit so well.

All I care about is that the parts are made, and right now - there are many B/W pieces that I just can't seem to find.....

Prices on old machines going up is good for the hobby. Prices on old machines going down is bad for the hobby. In general, what PPS is doing is bad for the hobby, even if necessary to protect the copyrights/trademarks they have an interest in. There are ways for PPS to do this without completely screwing up the hobby, while still maintaining the value of the copyrights/trademarks and profiting from them.

Yes, you are missing something. We have told one supplier to stop until we work something out. So, how on earth do those few EM parts for which many other people are making somehow turn into we are telling all of these suppliers to stop making parts - please when you go on record with something you need to be correct and not make up stuff. CPR is making stuff and has a long list of stuff in the pipeline, in fact we are adding suppliers as much as we can.

We've just started accelerating the parts that are made by putting the wms/bly art films repository into product, some that we make, some that others make (including CPR which we are exploring which titles of what to ADD to the list of artwork they have done themselves) ...

Our interest is to get more parts made, not less, but under license when it is copyright or trademark. I think our record of what we have produced, and had produced speaks for itself ... take a look at the history of what was made. We have dozens of suppliers that work with us, and as I said we are bringing more on board.

[email protected]