Damn! That EM Joker Poker is hanging with the big boys now.

Not doing more would be silly. I agree with what everyone has said, at an 8k price point, it should give them the ability to drop future prices somewhat. The development is done and you aren't paying designers or programmers, so there is no reason it should cost the same as a new JJP game. I'm actually a little surprised the release wasn't a bit cheaper to try to capitalize on op sales too. A 5k MM could sell another 2k to ops in another 24 hours.

I definitely foresee both CC and AFM in the future. I might be in for CC myself.

This. I would love a Barracora. It's on my list. A game doesn't have to be whatever was just recently released in the past 3 weeks to be fun & desirable. I love all things early 80s, and would love to fill my basement with machines from said era. While they might not have ball save, they have beauty,character and creativity.

Well keep in mind, when they announced this thing, it was 1000 LEs & they didn't expect to sell them all so quick. I'm guessing, had the LE sales slowly crawled to 'sold out'...at that point they would have announced a cheaper Standard - but what happened happened.

Yeah, but I don't think they would have hit on a $6k standard just for instance, which if that was the price you'd have route ops falling over each other to buy them.

One of these days, someone's gonna start talking about "real" prices on Standards....just like we know what "real" prices are on Sterns...they're not MSRP. I think it's safe to say that distributors will offer buyers lower than advertised prices on Standards. Prob not $6k but lower than 8!

Problem is, the newbies have priced out the market for most including themselves at this point.

Most don't seem to realize this yet.

Stay tuned, you will.

yes and:
TZ=$7000
IJ=$7000
CFTBL=$5500

Oh, for sure... but the thing is that at $8k, an op has the option of buying a Stern LE and saving money, or a JJP straight up. There is no longer any guarantee that MM will hold it's value, so it makes operating it a bit riskier.

Challenge the Stern Pro price a little, and having a machine that ops already know earns a ton will mean that there will be a LOT of ops taking it up. There are still multiple MMs on route around me (I knew where three were as recently as last year). At $6k, I guarantee those same people who buy one Stern Pro a year would have bought a half dozen.

As long as buyers with fat wallets keep shelling out the money they do or uninformed buyers get LW3's at $2k+ (fictitious example), yes there sure is.....

Careful...... not even two weeks ago, people kept saying things like "ZZZZ.....MMR ...never going to happen...*yawn*" and here we are (And I know who wrote that paraphrased example and can find it pretty quickly)....

And that's the problem right there. There are no R&D costs here, everything is pretty much prepped and ready for them to mass re-make these machines, and yet, boom - $8000. These remakes should not be anywhere near that much, but people keep snow-shoveling money at pinball makers when we have more makers of machines now than we prolly have had since 1970. Prices should be going down, but they're not, and that is NOT the seller's fault.

I cannot understand how $8000 NIB has become reasonable. Some people have fat wallets; I accept that. Some people also have more dollars than sense, but that criticism is common in any hobby.

That tends to happen as a hobby becomes more and more popular. Too many pinheads on a limited amount of games. It will only get worse I promise you. As a young person in the hobby I will eventually see the light when I am picking up all of your games from yardsales and estate sales.

That's what I'm talkin' 'bout!

Dude, the "market" is what the market will bear. If people truly believe that egregious profits are being enjoyed, then there is certainly room to come down in price if the market dictates that lower prices are necessary. The $8k NIB "trend" is for special machines. Stern still sells fun Pinballs for under $5k shipped. If Stern thought they could sell them for more, they would....and they will. Who knows, they may have to sell them again for less. I do not think that is an impossibility.

Id be on the order for a Stargazer or a Paragon today.

All of the PPS remakes will be priced at MMR MSRP or higher. There is zero chance of a lower cost remake. The bar has been set and may be raised.

Hi Frank.

I'd like to say your wrong... but then I'd be looking stupid when it happens.

I disagree. I hope we get to find out who's right!

Hey Kim, my $.02 on this is this: IF MM gets done, there will be another to follow. And if it sells at a price that generates what Rick considers a reasonable profit, there will be another. And so on until there isn't sufficient return in it. I find a lot of the MM talk amusing. While I don't have the time or attention span to wade through 100 posts, I don't think anyone has pointed out that it costs him no more to make a MM than to make a (fill in the blank with your personal favorite WB turd). And while I don't know how the production cost pie looks, I would imagine that the design and license costs make up a good chunk of the pie, as would tooling for game-specific parts. For example, for MM, the castle and dragon and moats and ramps are already designed and tooled. For the next Stern game, they're not. The point of all this is that the cost to reproduce an existing game has to be far lower than to produce a new one, AND, the demand is easier to predict than for a new game....Avatar vs Tron, for example.

So, I think they will keep coming, and I think there will always be a price umbrella set by JJP and Stern to keep Rick from getting rained on.

Joe

you are totally correct I purchased mine on Oct.31 from PPS they still had some mmr LE available on nov.5 because a lot of the people who signed that form at the expo never sent the $1,000 to the distrib that they chose they dropped out of the deal but it is sold out now and from what I've read there is about 500 reg Mm ordered as of 11/15

If MMR succeeds, the chance of any future remake being less than $8000 is zero percent.

Amen....I don't see how it could be anything but, looks like the people at the helm know what they're doing and obviously listening to the commuity.

Just thought of one edit, if the start up costs are answered with this remake from a marketing prespective PPS might be able to offer other less sought after titles (TAF, CFTBL, AFM, etc) at a lower price because the profit margin may be roughly the same as MMR.

You make me laugh...

They will never release a Bally/Williams gave for $5k!
Why should they if they sell-out in hours at £8k?

Now I know its MM, but they are in business to make money not give us value for money or cheap pins, added to this a year or so will go by before the next machine is being sold, so even if the next was $7k today, trust be next year it will be another one at $8k.

I hope I'm wrong....

Yup. I heard a lot of people at expo saying they thought Rick left money on the table with 8k MMR . Do not be surprised if it even goes up a bit. There is zero chance of it going down, just pure business, the product does not matter. If we will pay 8k , they are going to charge it or more. Seriously y'all , he raised close to a million dollars in a matter of hours with commitments closing in on eight million. That is a successful "no - product" launch in my book. When they deliver and get paid prices will move north.

Long way to go yet... Let's see the product first and let's see what happens when the other $7000 is due. Nobody's actually paid $8000 yet.

If I were in the market for an MMr, I'd take the standard over the LE. Don't care for the trim on the LE. I know that would mean giving up the shaker, but I'm not sure I'd miss it.

Hypothetical since you're not in the market, but PPS has said they'll give LE purchasers the option of chosing gold or silver trim.

Those people don't understand supply/demand. The used game prices were high cuz of demand and low supply. Rick has created supply....they would NOT have sold out priced any higher.

MM's a special case - more people want it than other games, even the other "A" games. I don't think other remakes would have the quick sell-out factor that MM did. Maybe that's OK though...maybe they'd be perfectly happy selling games at a slower clip. Who knows. I personally don't see myself paying 8k for another WMS remake....maybe CC if they can work it out to ship with the CCC software.

Didn't know that. Then I'd be in for a silver trim LE without a doubt.

I beg to argue...
During the seminar Rick showed the slide of $7995 MSRP multiple times.
Meaning the price was higher than needed. If the reception had been lukewarm I bet distrubitors would be selling them at $7,000-$7,500.
Afm at $8k I bet 100 sales.
Afm at $6,500 I bet kills it
And he can say MM covered a lot of start up costs hince the lower ticket on AFM

Although the real variable as to AFM getting made is not *as much* the price of the game but rather quality of MM as a more important factor.

I think it depends on what PPS wants its core business to be. Is their goal to profit on the reproduction of pinball parts or the reproduction of pinball machines? I’d think that as one market grows the other will start to diminish. I mean what would you rather buy - a used machine that needs a ton of reproduction parts and a restoration or a new reproduction game? I’d guess that most consumers will opt for the new game and bypass the whole restoration process. So, how do remakes help PPS sell repro parts if they remake a buch of games? I'd think all this "speculation" about what's next doesn't help them sell parts for AFM, MB, etc. I’m sure if there’s money in it they’ll keep contracting somebody to make reproduction games. I just wonder what that will do to their core business (current core business that is) in the long run.

Once the supply is there the machines that need restored should start coming down in price so the restorations parts will always be needed. Personally I would rather have an restored original over a remake, however if the price to buy a machine that needs restored cost close to what a NIB remake cost then it's a easy decision for me. Now there is a market for both kinds of people: Those who are OK with remakes can spend 8K for a NIB machine and those who want restored can pay 8-10K for a base plus 5-7K for the restoration.

Because now there will be twice as many MMs in the world needing parts.

Cab decals will scratch and peel, dragon wings will break, troll housings will snap, ramps will split, plastics will shatter.

Rick has just doubled his potential customer base on this title.

One thing that I do wish PPS would do if they DO decide to produce more reproduction games is notify the pinball public in advance as soon as they know which game they will remake. I do not see any value in secrecy, no one else is going to beat them to it, and I think it is considerate to those hunting for their elusive "holy grail" game, that they do not sink a lot of money or time into one if they can wait a bit and get a brand new one for the same price or cheaper. I think about these guys who were in the process of building their own MM from scratch and the enormous time they invested, or those who spent a wad having HEP fix up a beater, thinking that was the only way they could ever have a nice one. Announcing the MM remake was great, but to add that it has been in the works for quite some time probably chafed these people, but also probably hurt PPS' own sales. Some of those big bucks exchanged in the past year on MMs would have gone to them. I imagine there will be some "purchase paralysis" in the coming months for people wanting to buy AFM, CC, etc, wondering if they should wait on the chance it may be remade. Announce it even if 2 years away. My 2 cents . . .

As much as I love the old 90 era games I hope someone can come out with a new game that matches them.

Cactus Canyon is the next game to be reproduced. I was told by a reliable source. Mark my words.

That was the original plan in the beginning. Then they were going to make the crocodile hunter. Man I waited a long time for this.

Doesn't make sense to do CC before AFM unless they make it compatible with CCC. I'd be very surprised if there is any significant demand for CC otherwise.

It is much more realistic to get 8k for CC remake than 8k for AFM remake... just look at the prices people paid for these machines. Can they sell 1.000 of CCs for 8k... who knows? But I personally think that this is more likely than to sell 1.000 AFMs for 8k.

There are max. 900 CCs in the market and only very few of them are in nice original shape. The ones that are pretty had to be restorated from the scratch with a lot of effort and with really huge prices for spare parts.

Speaking of AFM... there are quite a lot of them out there, so I don't think that the market for AFMs is so huge - especially when you have to pay 8k.

For AFM and MB PPS will most probably have to lower the price to sell 1.000 in a relatively short period.
For Totan and CV PPS will have to lower the price even a little bit more.

So the obvious choice would be from my perspective CC... folllowed by AFM and MB, followed by TOTAN and CV.

This is not from a reliable source, just my personal opinion

CCC is nice (i played it already), but for really a lot of casual players the original software will be fine either. Biggest plus... it is original! Eric did an excellent job with CCC, but sometimes it is a bit too much of enhancements.

And I am quite sure that p-roc will come up with a solution, since there is quite some market potential.

I would love to see the return of pinball 2000
Wizard Blocks or perhaps even a new game with pinball 2000 technology.

Rick has said on Pinside a few times that he has a never released official version of the CC ROM that was more complete than the original. He also implied he has the rights to finish it.

I think CC will happen if he doesn't jack up MM14, but it'll be released with an update set of Williams code and not CCC. I agree with you, without either, it's not going to happen.

Cool, that was something, I missed...

But honestly!.... CC was also very expensive and hard to get before Eric started his project or came up with a first version. So I can't see the black and white in this discussion whether it makes sense in building a CC remake.

PPS is first and foremost a repro parts dealer. Why would they do anything to hurt their sales?

I don't think there are 1000 people that would buy a CV or a TOTAN. $8k is now the benchmark, do you really think PPS will sell their future remakes for less? I don't think there are a 1000 people that would buy an HEP CV or TOTAN for $8k. MM only makes since because of the ultra high price tag routed machines are/were going for. Maybe AFM and MB, we'll see.

Maybe.

I want AFM but not at $8000. $6500 and it's a different story.

Really, who has 8k burning a hole in their pocket and really really wants a nice AFM or MB, but never pulled the trigger? They might get 100 people who just want a 'new' one, but not 1000+. MM commanded an uber-premium market price. CC with completed code would be the only other B/W game that would make sense to reproduce at an 8k price point. I also can't say I completely understand all of the people who are afraid to buy a 20 year old game because of the maintenance. You are going to have to do the same repairs in short order even on a new game. I have dragged a ton of B/W games right off of route over the years and have never had any major 'take old yeller out back and put him out of his misery' moments. Maybe I've just been lucky.

Brian

I tend to agree with your assessment. I'd prefer to buy a new machine I haven't played 1000 times already.