(Topic ID: 18443)

PinWiki


By jalpert

6 years ago



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  • 75 posts
  • 30 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by SarverSystems
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    #1 6 years ago

    Usually I refer to Clay's guide when I have an issue, but I was having a DMD issue with my Creech and I was curious what it was. So, for the first time I hit up PinWiki and went right to the display issues section.

    I didn't suspect the display, it's like it had a bad line but random dots and distortion. Sure enough, I found 4 pictures under the failed RAM section and one of the pics looked exactly like my DMD. One 6264 and a socket later and the display is perfect!

    The last time I checked the site out was when it first started, it was pretty bare. Since then it appears to have updated nicely. If you are in need of repair advice, and you haven't checked it out in a while, the site is definitely worth a look. Highly recommend.

    http://www.pinwiki.com

    #2 6 years ago

    There is lots of great info on the site. I look at it often just to educate myself to make diagnosing issues faster.

    #3 6 years ago

    Have spotted several good tips on there. Well done site and very informative.

    #4 6 years ago

    yeah I really like the work members are doing on pinwiki
    -good site

    #5 6 years ago

    Thanks for the update. Last I looked was long ago and it was sparse. Hadn't thought about going back until you posted!

    #6 6 years ago

    The site is very nicely coming along.

    However, I worry about its future. There's all kinds of content on that site that is attributed to a wide variety of people - it's certainly not public domain - look at all the pictures and the copyrights reserved, and there's no clear policy regarding the submission of content and who owns it or what is "legal use". At some point in time, whoever is running that site can take it down just like the pinrepair.com site, pinwiki will be mired in controversy, but in the case of Pinwiki, people will actually have a legitimate beef because that site IS created by a bunch of people, whereas Pinrepair.com was the result of one central editor who wrote 99.9% of the content and actually has legitimate rights to it. So, while Pinwiki is nice... it's not like Wikipedia where submissions are supposed to be public domain or specific types of unrestricted licenses.

    I am not sure what's going to happen in the future with Pinwiki... what happens when someone takes some of the content and tries to republish it? What happens when the web host guy decides hes tired of paying for the hosting and brings the web site down or monetizes it? What happens when people in the community start fighting over who "owns" what parts of it? It's something to think about.

    #7 6 years ago

    Pinwiki is mirrored already from what I've heard by several other people so it will always be available.

    #8 6 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    There's all kinds of content on that site that is attributed to a wide variety of people - it's certainly not public domain - look at all the pictures and the copyrights reserved, and there's no clear policy regarding the submission of content and who owns it or what is "legal use".

    It is on this page:
    http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=PinWiki:Copyrights

    "The copyright for original material posted to PinWiki.com remains with the author, but by publishing it to PinWiki.com, the author grants PinWiki.com an irrevocable license to display that material. To receive an exemption from this irrevocable license you must receive express written permission prior to the submission of content. By submitting material to PinWiki.com you acknowledge that you have the rights to grant this license."

    #9 6 years ago

    It was widely believed it would be strong out of the gate, and then fizzle out, after Clay pulled his pages, and that is what happened. It is nice that people are contributing, and keeping it coming along, but I have found no benefit of it to date over Clay's pages, which I still hope he puts back up some time. That's not to say there isn't good info there, but nothing that is clearer per say or more correct and better explained than how Clay did this.

    If Clay continues to update and post back his stuff, I would expect new versions of his guides to put an end to pinwiki updates. It would be nice if both contributed together, but I don't see that happening. I would also suggest if pinwiki focuses on anything its whitestar/sam systems, as Clay had no guide for that.

    I know you're reading this Clay - I hope you do the pinball world another favor and makes this stuff public again

    #10 6 years ago
    Quoted from stangbat:

    It is on this page:
    http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=PinWiki:Copyrights
    "The copyright for original material posted to PinWiki.com remains with the author, but by publishing it to PinWiki.com, the author grants PinWiki.com an irrevocable license to display that material. To receive an exemption from this irrevocable license you must receive express written permission prior to the submission of content. By submitting material to PinWiki.com you acknowledge that you have the rights to grant this license."

    Who and what is PinWiki.com? You can't even do a WHOIS on the domain. The owner of the domain is anonymous. So basically whoever owns that domain has rights to the content.

    Quoted from KenLayton:

    Pinwiki is mirrored already from what I've heard by several other people so it will always be available.

    Anyone who mirrors the site under a different domain name does not have any rights to display the content according to their legalese.

    I like the idea of PinWiki but the execution is poor. It looks like Wikipedia but looks can be deceiving. Whoever owns the domain has non-transferrable rights to use other peoples' work. And you probably can't fix this error without starting the whole venture over from scratch.

    Also this is ambiguous: "the author grants PinWiki.com an irrevocable license to display that material"

    That could be construed any number of ways. What is "to display that material" mean? Can they take other peoples' work and publish a book and sell it for their own profit as long as the book is owned by "PinWiki.com?" There's nothing in the licensing restricting the owners of PinWiki.com from at any time, putting up a paywall like Clay did and restricting access to the info they contributed.

    The proper way to do PinWiki would be to require public domain or creative commons rights on any submitted material.

    What's ironic is this was created in the wake of the pinrepair.com guides taken offline, and people wanted a resource that couldn't be taken down, but Pinwiki is even less stable than Pinrepair. They could have simply put in the terms, "This content is intended to be made available on the Internet, without restriction, free of charge in perpetuity." or even added "the author grants PinWiki.com AND ANY MIRROR SITES an irrevocable license to publish that material online."

    There are so many ways the terms of the site could have been easily spelled out to make the resource a truly protected resource for the community, but it wasn't done. So now this community resource everyone has been contributed to, is controlled by whoever owns the domain PinWiki.com.

    #11 6 years ago

    Except access. I was curious about my issue, but I didn't have Clay's guide on me, but I had access to pinwiki and gave it a shot. I agree though, there isn't as much in there as Clay's guide, but it does have the benefit of easy access.

    Quoted from Atomicboy:

    but I have found no benefit of it to date over Clay's pages,

    #12 6 years ago

    While I applaud the pinwiki endeavor the pinball community should never have been deprived of Clay's guides.Very sad indeed.Scott

    #13 6 years ago

    None of this is meant to be argumentative. I've contributed several things to pinwiki and just wanted to clear up some points. Sorry for the length.

    For those that don't know, the pinwiki site (along with some others) was created in response to the Clay guides being removed from the web. One of the key objectives was that the new site could not be removed - in fact removing that fear was a key factor in getting people to contribute in the early going.

    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    At some point in time, whoever is running that site can take it down just like the pinrepair.com site

    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    There's nothing in the licensing restricting the owners of PinWiki.com from at any time, putting up a paywall like Clay did and restricting access to the info they contributed.

    As others have pointed out, the site is mirrored. The content is not going to go away.

    Quoted from Atomicboy:

    It is nice that people are contributing, and keeping it coming along, but I have found no benefit of it to date over Clay's pages

    I definitely agree that Clay's guides are more complete in many areas. But this is a 'chicken or the egg' problem. The more people who contribute, the less this becomes an issue. Lately when I have been doing a repair, I document the process and upload to pinwiki. I'm a broken record with this, but I'd highly encourage anyone to start contributing to the site.

    Quoted from Atomicboy:

    If Clay continues to update and post back his stuff, I would expect new versions of his guides to put an end to pinwiki updates. It would be nice if both contributed together

    This would be awesome, he is an incredible resource.

    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    what happens when someone takes some of the content and tries to republish it? What happens when people in the community start fighting over who "owns" what parts of it? It's something to think about.

    This I really don't have an answer for, and honestly I don't understand the thinking behind it. I do acknowledge some have this opinion. I remember that 'ownership' was a big problem with the Clay guides and that whole controversy. Even with the pinwiki, several people have put copyright notices on photos. For me, I contribute to try to give something back to people who are just getting into the hobby. If one was concerned with someone 'stealing' some repair info, they're probably better off not posting that information to a public web site.

    I think the spirit of the pinwiki contributors is to build the best pinball repair site on the web. We'd love to have you on board.

    #14 6 years ago

    Pinwiki is coming along nicely, however, it is still lacking a lot of the troubleshooting information that the Clay's guides had in spades. I think over time, Pinwiki will get better and better.

    #15 6 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    Who and what is PinWiki.com? You can't even do a WHOIS on the domain. The owner of the domain is anonymous. So basically whoever owns that domain has rights to the content.

    You can find some info on who owns the domain and runs the site here:
    http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/d9b3b76e6a505d3a

    Some more info:
    http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/ad9956996eef7e71

    When Pinwiki was started, I brought up the licensing issue on KLOV right away because I didn't want to see everyone's work disappear. Casey replied that he was going to use the same license as Wikipedia. As you have brought up, it isn't spelled out extremely well on the current site. I believe the intent of the current license is to try and keep someone from contributing content and then taking their ball and going home. But it does come off as restrictive rather than permissive. I don't think that was the intent, but it is good to have everything spelled out and clear so no problems arise in the future. The KLOV thread where this was discussed is here (see post #31):
    http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=180989

    Casey seems pretty open to discussion and making things available, so I'd think he'd respond if your concerns were addressed to him directly.

    #16 6 years ago

    Clay did not have any guides on the home model pinball machines. That's why I started that section of Pinwiki. Granted, I have had extreme difficulty locating schematics and manuals for some of the home models (Mattel in particular). That makes it a little more difficult to flesh out some of the guides without having any documentation. I'm still working on doctoring up some very deteriorated schematics on the 710-B board for the Fischer "Skyhawk" pinball machine.

    #17 6 years ago

    Some of you guys are suprisingly pessimistic about PinWiki and it's future. PinWiki is just over one year old. Through the efforts of quite a few people, the wiki already contains enough repair information for most hobbyists to get by. Sure, there are still some problems for which the solutions aren't incorporated, but those will come over time.

    Think about the length of time that it took Clay to amass the information contained in "the guides". It took years of collecting information from various web sources, technical publications, friends, and through his own research. It didn't happen overnight.

    The Wiki advantage is that there are many more contributors/authors than just Clay. Together, those authors write, edit, and rewrite articles that improve with each revision. Most of the time, authors like me will incorporate the information gleaned from a recent repair. I like to document the repairs so that I myself don't forget what was involved and how I fixed the particular problem.

    I'd like to see Clay's guides return too. But I'm not holding my breath. It's going to take Clay almost as much time to "clean up" the guides (remove non-original or unauthorized intellectual property) as it took him to amass them originally. This assuming that he doesn't run out of energy or motivation.

    If you find something missing from PinWiki, please enquire. I'm sure one of the authors will put it on there "to do" list and get it done. Or better yet, establish an account, and incorporate some of your own pinball repair expertise!
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.Team-EM.com
    http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball.htm
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

    #18 6 years ago

    I just got some use out of Pinwiki's classic Bally/Stern guide myself today. I was working on an old Bally "Star Trek" that was not getting the 7th flash to allow the MPU board to boot up. Sure enough, over on the sound board was diode CR3 (a type 1N4004) and it was bad (leaky). Replaced the diode with a new one and the MPU board booted right up.

    #19 6 years ago
    Quoted from ChrisHibler:

    (remove non-original or unauthorized intellectual property)

    It's probably less work than you think. Copyright is likely the only issue since it's unlikely that anyone would patent a pinball repair method. If so, then re-wording solves everything.

    #20 6 years ago

    I have not used this yet as there are alot of resources available for pinrepair.
    Sounds like it is a reasonable source. I might try it in the future.

    #21 6 years ago
    Quoted from ChrisHibler:

    Some of you guys are suprisingly pessimistic about PinWiki and it's future.

    I'm certainly not pessimistic, and I don't think PinballHelp is either. I use Pinwiki and I'm a contributor (I wish I had time to contribute more.) Our concerns are about making sure the content is freely available and can't be locked away. Sure the site may be mirrored, but that does not address the rights to the content. There are tons of different licenses that are permissive but still retain rights for the creator of the content. Pinwiki needs to decide which one is used and state it right up front so that contributors know or can find out how their contributions will be handled. I brought this up right at the beginning because it is easier to get in front of this issue rather than try to patch it up after the fact.

    I'm no expert on copyright, I'm just a bystander who kind of pays attention to this stuff and often sees what a mess is created.

    #22 6 years ago

    Just wanted to say I believe that the best people in this hobby are the ones who take time to put together tutorials on repairs, troubleshooting and restoration. Thanks again. Wally

    #23 6 years ago

    I would love to contribute, but all of my info would spew out almost exactly as Clay's guides have taught me. As for electronics and almost all other aspects, other than a few assisted threads on RGP, all of my knowledge has come from reading Clay's guides a million times.

    #24 6 years ago
    Quoted from ChrisHibler:

    The Wiki advantage is that there are many more contributors/authors than just Clay. Together, those authors write, edit, and rewrite articles that improve with each revision

    That's one advantage. The other advantage of a Wiki is that the content is PUBLIC DOMAIN or liberally-licensed so that it can be used (with attrition) by others. PinWiki does not have that advantage.

    In the open source community, these ideals work because there are specific terms: if you contribute to an open source project, you must agree that your contribution is also open source. EXCEPT in the case of PinWiki, the content is not "open source". The authors maintain a wide variety of ambiguous and restrictive rights to the content, and only the domain name "PinWiki.com" can do anything with it.

    I think it's wonderful that the resource is out there. I'm just saying, it's not structured like Wikipedia. It's not 'open source'. It's not 'public domain'. And legally-speaking, it could disappear from the net at any time and nobody could do anything about it. And if a mirror site popped up under another domain name, they wouldn't necessarily have the legal right to use the same content since the terms of service of PinWiki.com don't allow for it.

    Right now, it's not an issue because there's not a ton of content on the site, but as more and more content grows, this will become more of an issue. And whoever owns PinWiki.com will have control of that content. Everyone else who contributes will simply have rights to their piecemeal parts. Does anyone see what I mean when I say it as platform isn't that stable? It's still controlled by whoever controls the domain.

    #25 6 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    Does anyone see what I mean when I say it as platform isn't that stable?

    Yes, we're both saying the same thing and have the same concerns. I raised them over a year ago when the site started. As I said earlier, I think Casey intends for the content to be freely available. But as you point out, as things are currently worded it isn't that way.

    #26 6 years ago
    Quoted from stangbat:

    Yes, we're both saying the same thing and have the same concerns. I raised them over a year ago when the site started. As I said earlier, I think Casey intends for the content to be freely available. But as you point out, as things are currently worded it isn't that way.

    I'm sure you guys are right. I just choose to not worry about that. I'd rather get the info into the Wiki as it exists today to help people. The alternative is to wait for Clay, who can also retract the material at any time, or to embed it into RGP, a searchable USENET repository.

    Thanks for your help on the Wiki Stangbat!
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.Team-EM.com
    http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball.htm
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

    #27 6 years ago

    I'm suggesting, if the PinWiki people really have good intentions, what they need to do is change the terms of service and licensing restrictions to be public domain and/or Creative Commons public licensing, meaning all content must be contributed in the spirit of open source. None of this barrage of pictures with "copyright xxx" on them.

    The problem is, all the existing content has been contributed under more restrictive terms. They either need to revamp all that, or someone should start a new Wiki site that uses the same licensing arrangements as Wikipedia. This is the *only* way to ensure that the content will be freely available on the Internet.

    Now if these peoples' intentions are less than honorable, it's a brilliant plan: They offer the web site, they collect all the information, then at some point in the future they put up a paywall, or they decide to publish the information as a book *for their own personal profit* and nobody can do anything about it. If you contribute content to the site, you gave them the rights to use your work. Nowhere does it say they can't charge for it. Nowhere does it say that information has to be made freely available. There is this premise that there will be mirror sites, but it's irrelevant because according to the terms, only one site has rights to "display" the content.

    In Contrast, I run my own web site, PinballHelp.com. Which has repair videos and information. I create all the content myself; I write everything; I shoot my own video; I take my own pictures. I offer the info free to the community. But it's still my content. I can do what I want with it at any time. PinWiki is the same kind of deal except they're taking other peoples' content and I think a lot of the contributors may not be aware of it.

    I'm not trying to diss those guys for what they're doing. It's just not "open source." It's just as closed a system as my own, Clay's or anybody elses. But the difference is, me and Clay are creating our own content. We're not inviting other people to put stuff on our web site that we are claiming rights to. Something about that just doesn't sit right with me.

    I have plenty of content and information I'd like to contribute to such a project, but I am not comfortable with the terms. I don't like the idea that if I post something on the site, I'm not guaranteeing it's available to the community; I'm simply granting "PinWiki.com" the ability to do what they want with it. As a result, I'd rather just host my own content that way I can be sure it will stay up.

    #28 6 years ago

    I can see you are passionate about the subject.
    And, now I've connected your Pinside handle to your prior RGP posts.

    Thanks for the heads up...be careful with those through holes and with the alkaline damage repair.
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.Team-EM.com
    http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball.htm
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

    -2
    #29 6 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    me and Clay are creating our own content.

    You and Clay??

    Sorry to say this but your level of expertise is no where near Clay's..
    Your still learning and I see you still post help threads on RGP especially the Dracula CPU acid damage Vid you needed help with when your coin door menu was going nuts on the game.You knew there was battery acid damage on the CPU,Any tech would know the first sign of attack would be the coin door menus with battery acid on the CPU.You posted a help thread just to find that out,Your WPC reset Vid also wasn't correct.

    Clay is way ahead of you!!! So please don't associate yourself with Clay's expertise and knowledge.

    #30 6 years ago
    Quoted from pinmike:

    Clay is way ahead of you!!! So please don't associate yourself with Clay's expertise and knowledge.

    I didn't read anywhere where he was stating that. He simply made the statement that his content is is own and gave examples. His point about licensing with Pinwiki is valid. I think that the issues Pinwiki is running into is that they have to answer to copyright holders- Gottlieb, Williams, etc. If they need to play by company rules, they absolutely cannot make this information a true Wiki license.

    #31 6 years ago
    Quoted from pinmike:

    You and Clay??
    Sorry to say this but your level of expertise is no where near Clay's..

    I never said my level of expertise is near to Clay. I just said we both are creating our own content.

    Why are people trying to attack me personally because I'm pointing out something that is important for the health of the overall pinball community?

    #32 6 years ago

    Pinwiki does have permission to use Gottlieb copyrighted material:

    http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=PinWiki:Privacy_

    So I must assume that Pinwiki must follow the strict Gottlieb copyright rules in order to use Gottlieb material.

    #33 6 years ago
    Quoted from KenLayton:

    Pinwiki does have permission to use Gottlieb copyrighted material:
    http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=PinWiki:Privacy_
    So I must assume that Pinwiki must follow the strict Gottlieb copyright rules in order to use Gottlieb material.

    I don't think that's the problem. IANAL but I would speculate that PinWiki's reference to Gottlieb and other materials would fall under "Fair Use" guidelines, which allow for references for educational purposes.

    The problem is, all material contributed to the site is owned by "PinWiki.com", not the community.

    #34 6 years ago

    I think your POV is fine PinballHelp - I dont see any issues with it

    #35 6 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    Chris Hibler appears to be one of the major contributors.
    Chris are you running that site? If you intend for it to be your baby and that's the way it is and you're not going to change any of the licensing terms, that's fine. Is there any reason why you won't just say so?

    I'm not the person running the site. I am a contributor, and I am a site admin, which let's me do a few more things than regular contributors. It's more like being "super user". A young man named Casey runs the actual site. I promote the site as a living and growing alternative to saved copies of Clay's compilation of material and I work with the other principal authors like Jim Palson, baraka, Steve Kulpa, Richard and Ken Layton (I may have missed some).

    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    It's just that the whole notion of that site going up was supposed to be a buffer against a scenario like what Clay did when he took his content down. Yet that site has similar proprietary-content issues. Is it wrong for me to bring that up? Am I trying to look behind a door that some people want to stay locked?

    Nope...there is nothing sinister about anything going on with PW. Your posts sound a bit on the overly cautious side to me, but that could just be the way I'm reading them.

    I think one thing you've highlighted may be that some folks are hesitant to contribute to PinWiki because in the worst case, as the copyright page now reads, a contributor's intellectual property may be compiled, collected, and republished for reasons they did not envision or intend, including financial gain by the "owner" of PinWiki. I'll discuss with Casey and the principal authors

    Why am I contributing to PW?
    Why do I answer a lot of questions on both RGP and PW?
    No other reason but to help other pinball enthusiasts, and to create an information bank so that =I= can remember how I fixed various problems.
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.Team-EM.com
    http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    #36 6 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    I don't think that's the problem. IANAL but I would speculate that PinWiki's reference to Gottlieb and other materials would fall under "Fair Use" guidelines, which allow for references for educational purposes

    I have seen the documentation firsthand from Gottlieb, and it absolutely has to do with Gottlieb's wishes for their material. It is very strict (understandably, it is their IP and they can choose what they do with it), and one of the reasons why Pinwiki can never be a true/traditional Wiki.

    A large majority of the contribution of Pinwiki is from Chris, it is quite amazing what he has been able to populate in a short amount of time there. I am not taking away from the other contributers, but Chris is one of the main reasons there is a lot of documentation on there now.

    I am part of the other project that was discussed at the fireside chat last year at Expo, and our approach is completely different than that of the wiki- We will not publish until there is a finished product. I can tell you that some of the technical documentation I have been processing with other team members is really amazing stuff, and that while the process is slower than many of the team members would like it to be, we firmly believe the finished product will be worth the wait.

    I think we all hope Clay brings back his guides for public use, but even if he does (or doesn't) there are a lot of great resources out there for people to utilize.

    #37 6 years ago

    I can see you've contributed a lot to the site Chris, and I certainly appreciate it as I'm sure everybody else does. Maybe it's because half my family are lawyers or LEO and I've been involved in a variety of dealings on issues of this nature, but it just seems to me, that the terms on the site could be cleaned up a lot and it would instantly eradicate any concerns.

    Ultimately, since you've done so much for the site, if you're cool with things, then it's not that much of an issue. I certainly really enjoy how much you've put into it and I hope the resource stays around much longer.

    #38 6 years ago

    Just the fact that the resource is out there is refreshing. There may be no 'perfect' solution to sharing this type of information. I think we can all agree it is great that to have people out there putting so much effort into making this info available to the community.

    #39 6 years ago

    i'm just glad I got copies of Clay's repair guides before they became unavailable. They are simply invaluable. Pinwiki does help alot, but I do not see it being as informative as Clay's guides. With the copyright issues stated here at what point when "sharing" your info with the community does it not become your info anymore? Will you get credit for your work? Is one's info more valuable offered as a pay for information instead of open source? With the resurgence of pinball especially in HUO situations, maybe not having as detailed a repair guides info readily available will recreate a demand for more visiting pinball techs to earn a buck. Hope I'm not off base saying that, but the thought sure is compelling. Still there are plenty of us willing to share their experiences with their DIY projects to help the community.

    #40 6 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    Chris are you running that site?

    PinballHelp, have you read any of my responses other than the first one? Sorry if this response comes off as snippy, but I feel like everything I've stated is splatting on the wall. I pointed out who runs the site (Casey, it isn't Chris Hibler). I pointed to the thread on RGP where he introduces himself. I pointed out on KLOV where he said he intended for everything to be open. We can debate this here ad nauseum, but until this is addressed to Casey (who runs the site), nothing will come of it.

    I admit I haven't taken the time to raise the licensing issue with him again. And I probably won't as it isn't on my "to-do" list at the moment. I do share concern about it and I think it is a valid thing to worry about, and it can be fixed with the use of the proper license and terms. But I freely admit that I'm not going to be the torch bearer for it at this point in time.

    Edit: Here's more: http://www.pinballnews.com/learn/pinwiki/index.html

    #41 6 years ago

    Yea, I think some of the posts above were edited after I read them and I missed certain points.

    Anyway, I expressed what my concerns were, and it's really exclusively based on my desire to see this community resource stay around, be enjoyed by everybody, and not have any contributors be confused about what rights they're giving to their content.

    I apologize if I'm being unnecessarily pessimistic -- if major contributors like Chris are cool with things, so be it. Lately I've been up to my ears in various legal agreements with certain entities so I tend to carefully scrutinize things like this and play devil's advocate.

    #42 6 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    I never said my level of expertise is near to Clay. I just said we both are creating our own content.
    Why are people trying to attack me personally because I'm pointing out something that is important for the health of the overall pinball community?

    Don't you ever send me a PM threating me!! Be a Man and do it in the wide open forum,I don't have a beef with you but you think Your a know it all and that's what i don't like.You said in your PM about meeting up and discussing the problem well let me tell you this your gonna end up with a boot up your A$$!!!

    #43 6 years ago
    Quoted from pinmike:

    Don't you ever send me a PM threating me!! Be a Man and do it in the wide open forum,I don't have a beef with you but you think Your a know it all and that's what i don't like.You said in your PM about meeting up and discussing the problem well let me tell you this your gonna end up with a boot up your A$$!!!

    Dude, like i said. If you have a problem with me, take it up with me. Don't post inflammatory things in public and make bogus accusations against me.

    And speaking of threats, I didn't make a threat, but you just did.

    This all seems to have started because I had the audacity to suggest that posting a CL ad wasn't that great of a thing to do, and you got your feelings all bent out of shape and have been following me around online trying to mount various personal attacks. You need to grow up and recognize that other people are entitled to have opinions. And if you have a beef with me, take it up with me instead of polluting the forum with your irrational, unjustified malice towards someone you've never met, who has never done anything to you. Grow up!

    #44 6 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    make bogus accusations against me

    There was nothing Bogus about it!!

    #45 6 years ago

    Stay classy, you two!

    -1
    #46 6 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    This all seems to have started because I had the audacity to suggest that posting a CL ad wasn't that great of a thing to do, and you got your feelings all bent out of shape and have been following me around online trying to mount various personal attacks. You need to grow up and recognize that other people are entitled to have opinions. And if you have a beef with me, take it up with me instead of polluting the forum with your irrational, unjustified malice towards someone you've never met, who has never done anything to you. Grow up!

    Keep that BS talk to yourself no one wants to hear that crap!!Your Opinions stink by the way!!

    #47 6 years ago
    Quoted from pinmike:

    Keep that BS talk to yourself no one wants to hear that crap!!Your Opinions stink by the way!!

    I'm really sorry people have to see this immature stuff.

    I've reported it to the mods. Hopefully they'll deal with it.

    It's a sad day when people can't have an exchange of opinion and information without it degenerating into an elementary school-style argument.

    One of the reasons many of us have migrated to pinside from other online forums is to escape the nasty witch-hunts that seems to ensue from immature people being upset that someone disagrees with their point of view. I hope Pinside isn't falling pray to this syndrome as well.

    -1
    #48 6 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    I'm really sorry people have to see this immature stuff.

    I've reported it to the mods. Hopefully they'll deal with it.

    It's a sad day when people can't have an exchange of opinion and information without it degenerating into an elementary school-style argument.

    Your school teacher now huh?

    -1
    #49 6 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    I hope Pinside isn't falling pray to this syndrome as well.

    It's because of people like you who think they are always right is why a site becomes crappy.

    #50 6 years ago

    Dang this thread threw up on itself quickly.....

    Must be hot in Louisiana right now.....lol

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