(Topic ID: 256580)

Pinsound "No More Reset" and the Rob Kahr board


By Rdoyle1978

9 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 46 posts
  • 22 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 months ago by yaksplat
  • Topic is favorited by 8 Pinsiders

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    #1 9 months ago

    I just got an email from PinSound with some links to Black Friday deals (the "buy a Pinsound+ get a free headphone station and free shipping" is quite a good deal) - although there seems to be no way to combine buying Speakers and a PinSound board, despite the ad specifically stating that you can do so.

    I know the brothers have been selling rkahr 's daughterboard for a while, but all of a sudden this new product "No More Reset" pops up. It looks and functions very similarly to Rob's board, so I'm wondering - is this a revised version with different branding? Anybody know?

    Rob is an incredibly stand-up guy and I want to support him and do not want to support knock-offs, if that's indeed what's going on here. I am not sure if his board has just been re-branded though, which is why I'm asking.

    #2 9 months ago

    Just tried to purchase a PinSound board I've been sitting on for a while - take note that you can NOT combine buying a PinSound board and speakers in the same transaction. I believe this is due to the shipping involved - speakers have to be shipped with a different carrier, making them $140 shipped even WITH the discount, which is quite a shame. They are exceptional speakers though.

    16
    #3 9 months ago
    Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

    I know the brothers have been selling rkahr 's daughterboard for a while, but all of a sudden this new product "No More Reset" pops up. It looks and functions very similarly to Rob's board, so I'm wondering - is this a revised version with different branding? Anybody know?

    This is not a good story. Nicolas stopped stocking my daughterboards about two years ago but never took them off his website. He stopped restocking them because they "weren't profitable enough" meaning he wanted a better price. I just learned yesterday he created a knock-off of my board. I've known him for several years and spoken to him many times at shows - sometimes even with the little bit of French I still remember. I considered him a friend - this is disappointing and it hurts.

    Legitimate resellers of my Daughterboard are Marco, Big Daddy Enterprises, and Little Shop of Games in the US, Flippers.com and Player One Amusement Group in Canada, and PinballHeaven in Europe. If Nicolas has been shipping his knock-off to fulfill sales from the old listing of the legitimate WPC Power fix, that is even more disappointing, but suddenly wouldn't seem that surprising.

    -Rob
    -visit http://www.kahr.us to get my Daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or my Pinball 2000 H+V Video Sync Combiner kit

    #4 9 months ago
    Quoted from rkahr:

    This is not a good story. Nicolas stopped stocking my daughterboards about two years ago but never took them off his website. He stopped restocking them because they "weren't profitable enough" meaning he wanted a better price. I just learned yesterday he created a knock-off of my board. I've known him for several years and spoken to him many times at shows - sometimes even with the little bit of French I still remember. I considered him a friend - this is disappointing and it hurts.
    Legitimate resellers of my Daughterboard are Marco, Big Daddy Enterprises, and Little Shop of Games in the US, Flippers.com and Player One Amusement Group in Canada, and PinballHeaven in Europe. If Nicolas has been shipping his knock-off to fulfill sales from the old listing of the legitimate WPC Power fix, that is even more disappointing, but suddenly wouldn't seem that surprising.
    -Rob
    -visit http://www.kahr.us to get my Daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or my Pinball 2000 H+V Video Sync Combiner kit

    These things are never good... It sucks when people have to copy instead of create. I used your board to fix a nasty issue with a WW and that game is still up and running today. Thank You for being there for us. I will always look forward to patronizing your business.

    #5 9 months ago
    Quoted from rkahr:

    This is not a good story. Nicolas stopped stocking my daughterboards about two years ago but never took them off his website. He stopped restocking them because they "weren't profitable enough" meaning he wanted a better price. I just learned yesterday he created a knock-off of my board. I've known him for several years and spoken to him many times at shows - sometimes even with the little bit of French I still remember. I considered him a friend - this is disappointing and it hurts.
    Legitimate resellers of my Daughterboard are Marco, Big Daddy Enterprises, and Little Shop of Games in the US, Flippers.com and Player One Amusement Group in Canada, and PinballHeaven in Europe. If Nicolas has been shipping his knock-off to fulfill sales from the old listing of the legitimate WPC Power fix, that is even more disappointing, but suddenly wouldn't seem that surprising.
    -Rob
    -visit http://www.kahr.us to get my Daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or my Pinball 2000 H+V Video Sync Combiner kit

    I had a feeling. I am sorry Rob. That is the last time I buy from them. Between their baseless legal threats against the other sound replacement solution and other shady movies regarding pricing I’ve seen, I just had a feeling.

    I will continue to buy your boards when needed (I still have 3 haha and I am done with PinSound. What a shame.

    -25
    #6 9 months ago

    By designing "No More Reset", we wanted to create the best possible solution to handle the WPC reset issues, easy to use for the pinball collectors.

    We were not satisfied with the various existing products available on the market, that's why we spent many months on a
    completely fresh new design.

    We integrated in No More Reset many important features that we consider a must-have for this product:
    - prevent misfiring coil at startup
    - make sure the 5V original power supply design is respected: the CPU won't start if there is no 5V at all
    - mis-insertion mechanical protection
    - LEDs status to diagnose instantly how the system is running
    - no soldering
    - no permanent modification
    - over/short circuit protected
    - factory burn tested
    - sleek design

    Have a look:
    NMR_HD_front_web-450x500 (resized).jpg

    We spent months designing the No More Reset with all these features,
    at PinSound we never copy a product!

    Every year, we invest a lot of time in research and development to offer only original products with the best features. Stay tuned for the incoming products!

    Rob: It's not nice to assume we are shipping a product for another one, products we are selling online are only original product, we don't ship a product for another one.
    That's said, give us your address so we can ship you one No More Reset (for free of course) so you can test our product and appreciate our original design (an even maybe improve your product )
    About retailing, our offer is still on the table if you want to work together, you know our email address, no hard feeling. Anyway catch you at TPF 2020, we can speak French anytime

    For those of you who wants to make your own idea, we are currently having a "
    Buy 3 Get 1 for free" offer right now: coupon code at checkout "BLACHERE19"

    https://www.pinsound.org/no-more-reset/

    More products, more choices for pinball collectors!

    #8 9 months ago

    Good old Homepin’s in on the act as well...

    606BB3C6-3A20-4643-8E46-36C3DAF0939E (resized).jpeg
    #9 9 months ago
    Quoted from PinSound:

    - make sure the 5V original power supply design is respected: the CPU won't start if there is no 5V at all

    No shit, since the chips run off of 5v. This.. is common sense.

    Quoted from PinSound:

    Every year, we invest a lot of time in research and development to offer only original products with the best features.

    This ain't original, and maybe you should be putting more of your time into the PinSound, and promised features in it, instead of spending 'a lot of time' into something that already exists?

    Quoted from PinSound:

    (an even maybe improve your product )

    *snrk*

    Sorry, but it's a douche move. And while I like and respect rkahr a lot, I'll tell you guys the same thing I told him - this shouldn't even be a necessary product. If owners fixed their boards, they would be good to go. So in ya'll's case, IMHO, that just makes it sadder - spent 'all that' research and development time on something that is a bandaid.

    21
    #10 9 months ago

    Your knock-off is unquestionably copied. You copied the concept to reduce the load on the 5v line by driving the MPU with voltage derived from the 12v line. You copied the WPC Power Fix daughterbaord form factor that allows even the most minimally capable individual to successfully install one. You (poorly) copied the supply monitoring functionality of the Pro version.

    Now you suggest you have no hard feelings and I should contact you to co-market - as if you are waiting for my contact. That's just wrong.

    Here are some things you can't copy:

    1. Integrity. Many products would be relatively simplistic to duplicate once we've been exposed to the concept. NVRAM, replacement LED 7 segment displays, and NuCore just to name a few. Simply put, the work of others is not for me to duplicate.

    2. Honesty. From day one I have not marketed the WPC Power Fix as a "Reset Fix" board because there are some external perturbations where the rebalancing of loads across available supplies is not sufficient and additional work is required. To suggest otherwise is to lie to customers and you've put that lie in the name of your knock-off.

    3. American made. Many folks know the WPC Power Fix daughterboard is manufactured here in the USA - surface mounting happens in Arizona, and through hole assembly and testing happens here in Virginia.

    For you a step in the right direction would be to turn off your knock-off effort(s) and focus on the innovations you've created.

    -Rob
    -visit http://www.kahr.us to get my Daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or my Pinball 2000 H+V Video Sync Combiner kit

    #11 9 months ago

    Thread title should be changed to
    Pinsound rips off Rob Kahr

    #12 9 months ago
    Quoted from Coyote:

    No shit, since the chips run off of 5v. This.. is common sense.

    This ain't original, and maybe you should be putting more of your time into the PinSound, and promised features in it, instead of spending 'a lot of time' into something that already exists?

    Took the words right out of my mouth. If I conducted my business like this, I'd be sued out of existence. Maybe spend more time improving the ridiculously complicated shaker programming, or figure out how to get your price down. If the PinSound can be replicated with a Raspberry Pi zero and $40 of parts, it seems like $380 should be a huge enough margin to not have to steal from others in the community.

    #13 9 months ago
    Quoted from Mitch:

    Thread title should be changed to
    Pinsound rips off Rob Kahr

    Interestingly, I initially posted the title in full and it was mysteriously changed to just "PinSound" after only a few minutes. I changed it back, and now that we know more of what's going on, I think I agree that I should change it again.

    12
    #14 9 months ago

    This is a small community. I have met and purchased from Rob at shows. He is a stand up guy and totally up front about his boards.
    He has worked hard and came up with an original idea, and the thought of someone stealing that idea, tweaking it a little, and calling it "original" is disgusting at best.
    I, for one, will never make a pinsound purchase and think of them as "bad guys" now.
    I hope we all continue to support Rob, even if someone rips him off and offers his product at a reduced price.

    #15 9 months ago

    Man, that is disappointing to see. I already own two pinsound boards and was going to purchase an additional 3, but I refuse to support a company that steal designs from others... How pathetic.

    #16 9 months ago

    Never mind who has created what... but I wonder why these kind of boards are needed. The original WPC driver board power supply is a good design, only requiring replacing aging electrolytic caps or rectifier bridges every 10-20 years or so. I prefer keeping my games in original condition, without any gimmicks.

    #17 9 months ago

    Pinsound just lost another customer here.

    What is it with this hobby and the mod makers constantly ripping each other off??? Is it really that hard to just come up with your own shit?

    #18 9 months ago
    Quoted from russdx:

    Is it really that hard to just come up with your own shit?

    No it's laziness and wanting to cheap out by cutting corners and throwing others under the bus!

    #19 9 months ago
    Quoted from Coyote:

    this shouldn't even be a necessary product. If owners fixed their boards,

    There is nothing wrong with taking a load off an already overloaded power supply and transferring that load to a power supply that has a very small load. That's really all this is about. It makes sense to do all of your W/B machines to promote longevity of your boards. The Idea is sound and good preventive maintenance.

    #20 9 months ago

    Not every one has the time / skills to fix / track down the original issue.

    #21 9 months ago

    Let's not turn this into a debate into whether or not these boards are "the right" solution. Of course it's better to have boards which are in good working condition - but how many times do you wish you could just pop a board in or flip a switch to get a down game up and running again? Happened to me YESTERDAY with my TZ. I'm glad I had one of Rob's boards on hand to help diagnose the issue. (caps, of course).

    The point here is the extreme shadiness and theft, it appears, of yet another long time community supporter.

    #22 9 months ago

    Do a lot of people who install the PinSound board notice that they are in need of this bandaid board? Trying to figure out why they decided to add this also as one of the products they offer for sale.

    #23 9 months ago
    Quoted from PinRob:

    Do a lot of people who install the PinSound board notice that they are in need of this bandaid board? Trying to figure out why they decided to add this also as one of the products they offer for sale.

    No it’s just a $$ maker man. It’s all about the almighty $

    #24 9 months ago

    What I hate is when people copy designs verbatim. Had one seller offering a direct copy of Gottlieb power supply board but deleted some of the niceties such as the caged, adjustable 5V. They even left all the reference designations the same as my design.

    I put an easter egg into the design to see who copies it. Just to prove that their 'designer' was plagiarizing, they even left the easter egg in the original design. I have noticed they have removed the easter egg from the design on their current version. They must have finally gotten to the point where they were wondering 'why the heck do we need this?!?!.

    Spot the easter egg! (Nope, no hints and I won't tell anybody if/when they find it)
    But I will say it was not R6 and R8.
    125-001_Small (resized).jpg

    #25 9 months ago

    I'm not tellin...

    #26 9 months ago

    Diagnose and fix your boards properly. They are good for a tool but should NOT be used as a fix all, catch all, end all solution to a resetting game - because it will resume that behavior down the road. Maybe days...maybe years. But it will happen again, and we are starting to see it on FB Pinball Repair Groups....

    #27 9 months ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    Diagnose and fix your boards properly. They are good for a tool but should NOT be used as a fix all, catch all, end all solution to a resetting game - because it will resume that behavior down the road. Maybe days...maybe years. But it will happen again, and we are starting to see it on FB Pinball Repair Groups....

    This is for another thread

    #28 9 months ago

    ...and the logo on the product looks like a thief. LOL

    Thief (resized).JPG
    #29 9 months ago
    Quoted from PinSound:

    Every year, we invest a lot of time in research and development to offer only original products with the best features

    When Pinsound 1 is better than Pinsound 2 (Plus), it is really funny to read.

    1 week later
    #30 9 months ago

    Slimeball move Nicolas and PinSound. What’s next, joining forces with Harry Houdini at Pinball Mod Copy, I mean Company?

    Ive spoken to Nicolas at many shows and I have purchased probably a dozen PinSound boards.

    Unless he stops carrying these knockoff reset boards, I won’t buy from them again.

    Guess I’ll be trying these out, and I encourage others to do the same.

    https://tiltaudio.com/

    #31 9 months ago
    Quoted from knockerlover:

    Slimeball move Nicolas and PinSound. What’s next, joining forces with Harry Houdini at Pinball Mod Copy, I mean Company?
    Ive spoken to Nicolas at many shows and I have purchased probably a dozen PinSound boards.
    Unless he stops carrying these knockoff reset boards, I won’t buy from them again.
    Guess I’ll be trying these out, and I encourage others to do the same.
    https://tiltaudio.com/

    Watch out, the Pinball bros have been threatening Tilt as well. I’m not sure of the circumstances but they’ve made life difficult for Tilt, just like PPS made things painful for PiNSound for a while.

    1 month later
    #32 8 months ago

    Just stumbled onto this thread and was very disappointed to hear the story. I also catch up with Rob at shows I attend and he's the real deal. Hard to believe the pinsound guys would do that to him (or anyone). Guess that's the end of me giving pinsound any more of my business.

    #33 8 months ago
    Quoted from docquest:

    Just stumbled onto this thread and was very disappointed to hear the story. I also catch up with Rob at shows I attend and he's the real deal. Hard to believe the pinsound guys would do that to him (or anyone). Guess that's the end of me giving pinsound any more of my business.

    I think we need to support the good guys in the hobby.

    #34 8 months ago

    I was researching different speaker/sound options for a few of my machines. I stumbled on the Pinsound website and found their products. Thought I'd check them out as a vendor before purchasing and found this thread.

    Let's just say that my games won't be rocking Pinsound since they decided to knock off another vendor. What a dick move.

    I also like the .ORG for the website address.

    #35 8 months ago
    Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

    I also like the .ORG for the website address.

    Yeah I found that weird as well. I thought that ".org" extensions were meant for non profits and ".com" was for businesses. Maybe its different in Europe.

    #36 8 months ago
    Quoted from docquest:

    Yeah I found that weird as well. I thought that ".org" extensions were meant for non profits and ".com" was for businesses.

    That was the original intention back in the 80s when the TLD structure was first planned and implemented, but there are no registration restrictions on .org domains--anyone can register a .org domain. However, there are restrictions on .edu and .gov domains, as well as many country-based TLDs.

    At one point, I think .org domains may have been cheaper than .com

    #37 8 months ago
    Quoted from docquest:

    Yeah I found that weird as well. I thought that ".org" extensions were meant for non profits and ".com" was for businesses. Maybe its different in Europe.

    It doesn't really work that way any more. But It is kinda weird.. pinsound.com is owned by someone else (a holding company usually), and it probably costs too much for them to buy it from them. a lot of the domain registrars registered tons of names made from different combinations of words back in the early 00s and now you pay thousands to them to register for certain top level (simple words, .com extension) domains

    3 weeks later
    11
    #38 7 months ago

    So, I've created region-specific ordering pages for Europe and Australia where customers can pay in their native currency and can choose a very economical shipping option. Combined, this should take any financial incentive out of the decision of whether to get the genuine, proven WPC Power Fix versus either of the lower quality Chinese made knock-off products. See my complete announcement here:

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-for-europe-and-australia-from-kahrus-circuits#post-5459444

    Kind of a side-show to the announcement is the new Self-Assembly Kit option for my daughterboard. It is intended for those who can do basic through-hole soldering and want to use their skills to get a somewhat more affordable option.

    Thanks, everyone, for the strong showing of support in this thread!

    -Rob
    -visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or my Pinball 2000 H+V Video Sync Combiner kit

    #39 7 months ago

    Great idea, Rob!

    1 month later
    #40 6 months ago

    I was about to order one from pinsound then i found this thread. Put my order in with rob this morning.

    #41 6 months ago

    Wow, I thought the Pinsound guys would have been shamed enough, getting called out for blatantly stealing the Kahr idea/design, to stop selling their knock-off reset board. I was considering a Pinsound board for my Dr. Who, but hard pass now.

    #42 6 months ago
    Quoted from yaksplat:

    I was about to order one from pinsound then i found this thread. Put my order in with rob this morning.

    Good for you!

    #43 6 months ago
    Quoted from Eric_S:

    Wow, I thought the Pinsound guys would have been shamed enough, getting called out for blatantly stealing the Kahr idea/design, to stop selling their knock-off reset board. I was considering a Pinsound board for my Dr. Who, but hard pass now.

    It was also on my list for Dr Who but I'm going to opt for an LED ColorDMD instead and just stay with the original sound board.

    #44 6 months ago
    Quoted from yaksplat:

    I was about to order one from pinsound then i found this thread. Put my order in with rob this morning.

    Much appreciated - I hope you saw it shipped today as well. Better product plus better service!

    K's Arcade is selling the pinsound knockoff and pinball life is selling the homepin chinese knockoff. Both are reputable sellers in our community; I just wish they wouldn't list foreign-made knockoff products. I heard through pinball life the knockoffs aren't selling well.

    Quoted from Robotworkshop:

    It was also on my list for Dr Who but I'm going to opt for an LED ColorDMD instead and just stay with the original sound board.

    If you happen to come to my booth at Allentown you will almost certainly see a sign that says "My pin sounds better with Tilt! Audio". I had it ready for Texas but we all know that couldn't happen this year.

    -Rob
    -visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or my Pinball 2000 H+V Video Sync Combiner kit

    #45 6 months ago

    That is really unsettling to see PBL selling the knockoff.

    Hopefully Allentown happens still in June! Cabin fever over here!!

    #46 5 months ago

    Quick shipping, thanks! Received, installed and works great!

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