Bristow, VA
Quoted from o-din:Ok- How's this?-
it's hard to make out, but I think it's a Maytag Super Capacity with FabricCare. Looks like it's got the 4 heat settings as well, nice find!
...?
(Topic ID: 71730)
Quoted from RobT:LOL
That isn't a straw man argument in any way, shape, or form.
I don't think that term means what you think it means.
It's a sweeping generalization, a form of ad hominem. I most definitely know what it means. It's "guilt by association". If you come up with a cute-yet-derogatory name for something, it makes it easier to dismiss.. that way you don't have to actually delve into the details of an individual case. That's the essence of a "strawman" - a mischaracterization of something that is an easy "target". Taken from history when people would set up "straw men" as targets to attack. The "strawmen" were not actual people but crude facsimiles.
Furthermore, you just demonstrated another logical fallacy called, "The argument from personal incredulity" by suggesting I don't know what I'm talking about. That's a variation of the fallacy called "unstated major premise" meaning to make a claim but not back it up with evidence. And that's based on another fallacy you're employing called "argument from anonymous authority."
Quoted from PinballHelp:It's a sweeping generalization, a form of ad hominem. I most definitely know what it means. It's "guilt by association". If you come up with a cute-yet-derogatory name for something, it makes it easier to dismiss.. that way you don't have to actually delve into the details of an individual case. That's the essence of a "strawman" - a mischaracterization of something that is an easy "target". Taken from history when people would set up "straw men" as targets to attack. The "strawmen" were not actual people but crude facsimiles.
Furthermore, you just demonstrated another logical fallacy called, "The argument from personal incredulity" by suggesting I don't know what I'm talking about. That's a variation of the fallacy called "unstated major premise" meaning to make a claim but not back it up with evidence. And that's based on another fallacy you're employing called "argument from anonymous authority."
images.jpeg
Quoted from PinballHelp:It's a sweeping generalization, a form of ad hominem. I most definitely know what it means. It's "guilt by association". If you come up with a cute-yet-derogatory name for something, it makes it easier to dismiss.. that way you don't have to actually delve into the details of an individual case. That's the essence of a "strawman" - a mischaracterization of something that is an easy "target". Taken from history when people would set up "straw men" as targets to attack. The "strawmen" were not actual people but crude facsimiles.
Furthermore, you just demonstrated another logical fallacy called, "The argument from personal incredulity" by suggesting I don't know what I'm talking about. That's a variation of the fallacy called "unstated major premise" meaning to make a claim but not back it up with evidence. And that's based on another fallacy you're employing called "argument from anonymous authority."
lemme take this one, RobT:
Quoted from PinballHelp:It's a sweeping generalization, a form of ad hominem. I most definitely know what it means. It's "guilt by association". If you come up with a cute-yet-derogatory name for something, it makes it easier to dismiss.. that way you don't have to actually delve into the details of an individual case. That's the essence of a "strawman" - a mischaracterization of something that is an easy "target". Taken from history when people would set up "straw men" as targets to attack. The "strawmen" were not actual people but crude facsimiles.
Furthermore, you just demonstrated another logical fallacy called, "The argument from personal incredulity" by suggesting I don't know what I'm talking about. That's a variation of the fallacy called "unstated major premise" meaning to make a claim but not back it up with evidence. And that's based on another fallacy you're employing called "argument from anonymous authority."
Holy smokes is this what 2 lawyers arguing with each other looks like? 
You guys are way smarter than I am!
Quoted from Concretehardt:Holy smokes is this what 2 lawyers arguing with each other looks like?
You guys are way smarter than I am!
That's why they make the big bucks.
I do think the thread is a bit pointless. We all know that when someone calls a game a "refake" they are expressing annoyance and showing an agenda with their annoyance. I have no MM and no plans to buy the MMR. I would rather spend my money on a new title.
Quoted from pezpunk:please find another way to express your opinion. the word "refake" instantly destroys your post's credibility. friendly word to the wise.
It's seriously just a lack of wit to be honest. One un-clever person thought it was funny so all of the other unfunny's run with it.
Quoted from Concretehardt:Holy smokes is this what 2 lawyers arguing with each other looks like?
You guys are way smarter than I am!
Don't offend lawyers by implying that PinballHelp is a lawyer!
And being a lawyer doesn't make them any smarter than you!
Quoted from RobT:Don't offend lawyers by implying that PinballHelp is a lawyer!
He's definitely not an auto mechanic.
Quoted from o-din:He's definitely not an auto mechanic.
He definitely is a part-time pinball repair technician (at least for his own pins), and not afraid to "lift the hood" and work on them.
Quoted from Pinball-is-great:He definitely is a part-time pinball repair technician (at least for his own pins), and not afraid to "lift the hood" and work on them.
You almost have to be in this hobby. Unless you've got money to burn.
Every time Hollywood remakes a movie, it's going to be different than the original. So should we call it a "refake"?
No.
Why not? Because it's a really corny term.
Quoted from vid1900:If they really were playboys, they would not have to tell anybody.
+1 Real gangstas don't flex nuts, because real gangstas know they got'em. 
Quoted from Whysnow:Yes but the HEP games look true to original form (i.e. boards)
Take a non-pinball person and line up a clean HUO MM, a HEP MM made to look original (no bling), and a PPS MMR and lift the hoods. Ask them which one is different and they will all point to the MMR
This has to be the least of my concerns if I was in on buying one of these (which I am not). Do you still use your computer that was made in 1997? How about that TV from back in the late 90's. 
Technology has gotten better and they have been able to make boards smaller that can out perform those from 10 years ago. Let me guess you are one of those guys that still uses the 1st bulky cell phones that came out right? No way you would buy a iPhone or any smart phone cause its soooo much smaller that it must be worse! 
Quoted from smassa:This has to be the least of my concerns if I was in on buying one of these (which I am not). Do you still use your computer that was made in 1997? How about that TV from back in the late 90's.
Technology has gotten better and they have been able to make boards smaller that can out perform those from 10 years ago. Let me guess you are one of those guys that still uses the 1st bulky cell phones that came out right? No way you would but a iPhone or any smart phone cause its soooo much smaller that it must be worse!
FYI, coin-op technology has mostly regressed since the 90s. Stuff is made smaller and cheaper yes, but it fails quicker and is often very hard to fix or costly to replace -- because where else are you going to get those parts except from the manufacturer/distributor?
And yes, Chicago Gaming is one of them.
Quoted from ReplayRyan:FYI, coin-op technology has mostly regressed since the 90s. Stuff is made smaller and cheaper yes, but it fails quicker and is often very hard to fix or costly to replace -- because where else are you going to get those parts except from the manufacturer/distributor?
And yes, Chicago Gaming is one of them.
Sorry I dont see the board set as a major cause of concern for this project. Other issues may be of greater concern but the boards running the game should be covered under the warranty & no less problematic then the original WPC95 boards.
No reason for hating. We all like pinball or wouldn't be visiting this forum. No one likes to feel insulted or slighted. Once that happens, the thread goes south quick. To be fair, this thread is inflammatory from the beginning.
When I see someone using the term "refake" it immediately broadcasts that somehow they're butthurt about more pinball machines out there being built for more people to enjoy. Oh, and that they're upset about the value of their collection taking a hit, that too. Doesn't bother me at all, just tells me where they stand and where their motivations are with pinball and collecting.
Quoted from pezpunk:please find another way to express your opinion. the word "refake" instantly destroys your post's credibility. friendly word to the wise.
Most of the people using the term were already considered clowns. No biggie.
Quoted from CaptainNeo:It might not be like the original, but it might be an improvement over the original. This is a chance for them to improve things. Time will tell which will be most desirable.
Only ones that are mad about the remake are the ones that "invested" in MM or MMs. Ones that bought it to play because they love the game really don't give a shit. The ones that had 6 or 10 sitting in storage where like "FAWWWWWWWWWWK". (which I know 3 that had more than 6 on hand waiting to cash out).
Exactly. F*** the hoarders!
Quoted from CaptainNeo:It might not be like the original, but it might be an improvement over the original. This is a chance for them to improve things. Time will tell which will be most desirable.
Only ones that are mad about the remake are the ones that "invested" in MM or MMs. Ones that bought it to play because they love the game really don't give a shit. The ones that had 6 or 10 sitting in storage where like "FAWWWWWWWWWWK". (which I know 3 that had more than 6 on hand waiting to cash out).
Good. Hope they take a bath on them.
Wait. Bad idea. Water stains won't come out.
Quoted from smassa:Technology has gotten better and they have been able to make boards smaller that can out perform those from 10 years ago. Let me guess you are one of those guys that still uses the 1st bulky cell phones that came out right? No way you would buy a iPhone or any smart phone cause its soooo much smaller that it must be worse!
Smaller doesn't mean better in this case.
My concern would be boards that are un-serviceable and must be replaced when bad.
Tons of surface mount components would make the rehash(tm) a lesser game.
But maybe it truly is a better boardset, who knows until they have been running for 10 years on route? (or at least 5)
But right now, I would go with a tried and tested original, that has been proven.
Maybe someday, they'll call these re-fukin'-diculously-awesomely-improved-fakes?
Quoted from RobT:Don't offend lawyers by implying that PinballHelp is a lawyer!
And being a lawyer doesn't make them any smarter than you!
Nope. I'm not a lawyer. But I do like sharing stuff that I know with other people.
And what is your deal RobT? Why are you so insecure you can't disagree with people without your every response degenerating into a personal insult?
And for those who found my elaboration on the nature of what is and isn't a logical fallacy boring or annoying, sorry. It wasn't meant for you. I was accused of not knowing what I was talking about so I elaborated.
Quoted from PinballHelp:Nope. I'm not a lawyer. But I do like sharing stuff that I know with other people.
And for those who found my elaboration on the nature of what is and isn't a logical fallacy boring or annoying, sorry. It wasn't meant for you.
People don't like smart people so if you want to be liked pretend you are stupid.
I used to say from which to choose, my grandmother was an English teacher and you never end a sentence with a preposition.
After years of people correcting me I now go with the incorrect to choose from.
Throw in an occasional I ain't got no and you're in like Flynn.
A mined used to be a terrible thing to waist but now it is all the rage.
Kelowna, BC
Quoted from DNO:Smaller doesn't mean better in this case.
My concern would be boards that are un-serviceable and must be replaced when bad.
Tons of surface mount components would make the rehash(tm) a lesser game.
But maybe it truly is a better boardset, who knows until they have been running for 10 years on route? (or at least 5)
But right now, I would go with a tried and tested original, that has been proven.
Maybe someday, they'll call these re-fukin'-diculously-awesomely-improved-fakes?
Go for it...their cheap now, relative to where they used to be.
Quoted from PinballHelp:Nope. I'm not a lawyer. But I do like sharing stuff that I know with other people.
And what is your deal RobT? Why are you so insecure you can't disagree with people without your every response degenerating into a personal insult?
And for those who found my elaboration on the nature of what is and isn't a logical fallacy boring or annoying, sorry. It wasn't meant for you. I was accused of not knowing what I was talking about so I elaborated.more you know.jpg 27 KB
I appreciated it.
Quoted from tracelifter:A mined used to be a terrible thing to waist but now it is all the rage.
Quoted from DNO:Smaller doesn't mean better in this case.
My concern would be boards that are un-serviceable and must be replaced when bad.
Tons of surface mount components would make the rehash(tm) a lesser game.
But maybe it truly is a better boardset, who knows until they have been running for 10 years on route? (or at least 5)
But right now, I would go with a tried and tested original, that has been proven.
Maybe someday, they'll call these re-fukin'-diculously-awesomely-improved-fakes?
My old Tube TV was extremely reliable. Guess what I now have LCD tv's all over my house. That old rotary phone never had a call drop on me either. It's long gone as all I have now is a iPhone. It's a pinball machine board set, I doubt it will be too hard to repair or replace if they are successful and the people at PPS would be stupid to not have replacement parts available especially since all they have been is a parts business for quite some time now.
Quoted from swf127:Why does anyone care? A bunch of people who couldn't afford an MM get to buy one and original MM's stop selling for ludicrous prices. Why the derision? A world where the best pins are available to all at reasonable prices sounds like pinhead nirvana to me.
To me, spending $8,000 on a pinball machine is just as ludicrous as spending $12,000+ for one.
As for the last point in that quote, I'm still eagerly awaiting the return of there being reasonable prices on the best pins available to all. Right now, that shit aint happening.
Quoted from PinballHelp:We are reminded of this every time you post.
I'm just happy that someone with your obviously superior intelligence and gift of gab, noticed.
welcome to 2013.
Truthers. Tea Baggers.
Just a way to be derogatory and like you said, easy to dismiss those peoples opinions as radical.
No way I'd want a MMR but they aren't REFAKES. It will still play real pinball like original on original code so your playing experience will be the same so how could it be a fake?
yeah dgoett that's basically the essence of what i'm saying. maybe the remake isn't for you, but only someone personally -- or more accurately, financially -- invested in its failure would feel the need to invent insipid terms like "refake" to talk about it.
Quoted from dgoett:so how could it be a fake?
Let's just wait and see what the ramps look like and how long the playfield plastics and weldments hold up. Then we will know for sure.
Quoted from Fatsquatch:To me, spending $8,000 on a pinball machine is just as ludicrous as spending $12,000+ for one.
I agree but hey, 8k is less than 12K so what number isn't ludicrous?
Quoted from Fatsquatch:To me, spending $8,000 on a pinball machine is just as ludicrous as spending $12,000+ for one.
As for the last point in that quote, I'm still eagerly awaiting the return of there being reasonable prices on the best pins available to all. Right now, that shit aint happening.
It's actually about a third less ludicrous. But I feel ya.
Quoted from Incognito:Deannegoett said Truthers. Tea Baggers.
Let's add to this PSA. Please don't try using your private fun with your little boyfriends as a moronic substitute for a movements name.
They're movements alright.
Quoted from tracelifter:People don't like smart people so if you want to be liked pretend you are stupid.
I used to say from which to choose, my grandmother was an English teacher and you never end a sentence with a preposition.
After years of people correcting me I now go with the incorrect to choose from.
Throw in an occasional I ain't got no and you're in like Flynn.
A mined used to be a terrible thing to waist but now it is all the rage.
I Hang out with people smarter than me. problem solved
Quoted from o-din:Let's just wait and see what the ramps look like and how long the playfield plastics and weldments hold up. Then we will know for sure.
Have you ordered any replacement plastics from BAA / PPS?
They are as solid as the day is long. If that is what I have to base preliminary judgement on, then I have no worries whatsoever.
Quoted from Triumvirat73:Have you ordered any replacement plastics from BAA / PPS?
No I haven't. But I have read several complaints about AFM targets and other impact pieces breaking on contact. I may get a MMr, but not until I have a chance to inspect the finished product. I don't see any reason to rush into something that will be available in a few months. Time flies faster than my money these days.
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