(Topic ID: 11547)

Pinside Moderation for the Masses

By robin

12 years ago


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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by PoMC
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    There are 123 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
    #1 12 years ago

    Hmm, let's see what kind of mess we are into today. I log in to the site after a few days of absence and find this whole discussion about what should be on the site and what not. We've talked about the topic of moderation many times before. Generally this is pretty clear. It should adhere to the Pinside rules. It has to have to do with Pinball. Okay. Well, general off-topic discussion is not a big issue either. Occasionally a Selma pic for good measure. Sure why not. But after that a gray line appears. And the problems for our moderators begin.

    I guess it's all about perception. Some people think certain pictures are acceptable, and some don't. If I was to ban any off-topic pictures from the site, this place would become like that book "1984" (or the movie Equilibrium). I just don't like the thought of that. But personally I'm not a huge fan of all the off-topic topics/posts either. This site is first and foremost about pinball.

    I would really hate to sit and watch this site go "down the gutter" either.

    So how to solve this? How about this idea, I call it called "moderation by the masses" (inspired by a great tech site here in the Netherlands, called Tweakers.net):

    * Each post made on the Pinside forum gets a base score of 0 points to start with. This means "unmoderated post".
    *All Pinsiders (including YOU) can give out points to a post:

    +3 starred comment
    +2 informative post
    +1 on-topic post
    0 unmoderated.
    -1 unwanted post

    * Additionally, there will be a NSFW/F button to tag a post as not save for work/family
    * All topics on the Pinside forum will get "threshold" filter buttons at the top where you can CHOOSE to not see any posts below a certain level. So you could opt not to see any posts with a score of -1 (unwanted post). Or you can filter out NSFW/F posts.
    * Each Pinsider can store their preferred setting in their profile. Posts below your threshold can still be read, by simply collapsing the post manually (see the second screenshot below)
    * Guests (not signed in visitors) will default to the NSFW/F filter enabled.

    This should work for all of you, want a safe Pinside? Set the threshold to +1 and/or enable the NSFW/F filter. Want a fully unmoderated site? Set the theshold to -1 and disable the NSFW/F filter.
    etc.

    Needless to say, stuff that really doesn't belong here (as described in the Pinside community rules will still be moderated/deleted by our moderator team. There is no place here for racism, hate and other ugliness.

    To get an idea how this would look, here's what it looks like on Tweakers.net where it has worked well for years:

    Screen_Shot_2012-02-19_at_4.37.56_PM.pngScreen_Shot_2012-02-19_at_4.37.56_PM.png

    As you can see in the second screenshot, the post from Jeroymus is below the viewers threshold, which defaults to not show anything scoring under 0.

    Screen_Shot_2012-02-19_at_5.34.46_PM.pngScreen_Shot_2012-02-19_at_5.34.46_PM.png

    These are all ideas - Let me know what you think and wether I should implement this! Did I oversee anything, or will this solve the issues at hand?

    #2 12 years ago

    Robin, you are nothing short of a miracle worker. Well played, sir.

    #3 12 years ago

    Very impressive Robin. Great work.

    #4 12 years ago

    Agreed, great work as always. I visit this website everyday just to read the forums, reviews and details on pins.

    #5 12 years ago

    Each Member has the Option to Edit their own Post.. How about the Option to Delete an Entire Thread We Started.. If we make a Mistake and see that the Thread Suck's,, ( It's Gone ) !!

    #6 12 years ago

    I think it's a great idea.

    #7 12 years ago
    Quoted from BLACK_ROSE:

    Each Member has the Option to Edit their own Post.. How about the Option to Delete an Entire Thread We Started.. If we make a Mistake and see that the Thread Suck's,, ( It's Gone ) !!

    For now, I don't want to enable that, it often upsets people to see their posts (and the topic they posted to) suddenly be gone from the face of the planet. But you can always e-mail me or one of the moderators and ask them to delete the thread for you - mods will be quick to agree with you if it indeed has no added value to the site.

    #8 12 years ago

    it's sad that this has to be addressed in the first place, but I must say that is a pretty cool feature. I hope that people would rate threads honestly, I can see users that have "issues" with other users continually flagging posts regardless of the content and value of the post just to get even.

    #9 12 years ago

    maybe some accountability for the negative rating? if someone give a negative rating they would be required to enter a brief reason

    #10 12 years ago
    Quoted from ssathre:

    I can see users that have "issues" with other users continually flagging posts regardless of the content and value of the post just to get even.

    hopefully, their vote will only count once and will be nullified by the legit ratings??

    #11 12 years ago

    Sounds very fair overall.

    #12 12 years ago
    Quoted from ssathre:

    I hope that people would rate threads honestly, I can see users that have "issues" with other users continually flagging posts regardless of the content and value of the post just to get even.

    First of all, note that we'll not be rating threads, but individual posts.

    In this system, 1 user's vote is not enough to "hide" a post. Multiple votes (3 or more?) are needed to make things more honest. It's all about the opinion of the collective as opposed to that of the individual, well at least that's the idea.

    #13 12 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    First of all, note that we'll not be rating threads, but individual posts.

    In this system, 1 user's vote is not enough to "hide" a post. Multiple votes (3 or more?) are needed to make things more honest. It's all about the opinion of the collective as opposed to that of the individual, well at least that's the idea.

    understood, thanks for clarifying that for me.

    #14 12 years ago

    I've always been under the impression that "The Pinball Bar" area was the area that posts for off-topic discussion were to take place in. Am I wrong?

    The thing that I'm seeing is that a newly created thread about off-topic subjects like guns, hunting, boobs, etc are showing up on the main page of the forum as "latest discussions" right
    along with all the PINBALL related items.

    It's like the reese's peanut butter cup commerical "you got your peanut butter in my chocolate, you got your chocolate in my peanut butter" scenario happening.

    If people are not liking all the off-topic discussions can they be taken out of the latest discussion area of the forum page?, so the only discussions being seen are ALL pinball related.

    If people want to keep up with the latest off-topic items have them go to the pinball ball area and
    see what's the most recently posted items.

    Me personally, I read threads that have an interest to me, if it doesn't interest me I don't read it.

    #16 12 years ago

    Great idea Robin

    #17 12 years ago

    Wow. Go Netherlands. Simple, elegant. It does seem like an unnecessary amount of work, but I have no idea how much work it would be for yall. My settings would always be at -1, I don't want to miss anything. Great idea.

    #18 12 years ago

    I'd say 99% of the people that come to this site never click the individual forums to the left of the main forum page, I know I don't. I just scroll down the latest discussion main page. Maybe a way to filter/customize this main page to include/exclude the subcategories on the left side (bar/selling & buying/etc.)

    Just a suggestion. Personally, I read everything.

    #19 12 years ago

    Will individual posts within a thread be hidden due to low ratings? I wish that would be a possibility. For instance, a random booby pic in a tech posting?

    #20 12 years ago

    Mystic said -
    I'd say 99% of the people that come to this site never click the individual forums to the left of the main forum page, I know I don't. I just scroll down the latest discussion main page. Maybe a way to filter/customize this main page to include/exclude the subcategories on the left side (bar/selling & buying/etc.)

    Just a suggestion. Personally, I read everything.

    Exactly what I was trying to get across. Perfect!

    #21 12 years ago
    Quoted from rommy:

    Wow. Go Netherlands.

    +1

    #22 12 years ago

    We should never remove entire threads. Again, people on here sell a lot of pins, it's nice to search and see what type of people we're dealing with.

    #23 12 years ago

    Sounds like very good idea Robin.

    #24 12 years ago

    Robin:

    This a different approach that I would like to share respectfully with you.

    If governance is excessive, you have fascism; if too absent-anarchy. No one wants fascism, and we may have been experiencing a bit of the anarchy lately. Any system of individually-responsible governance requires self-monitoring, and the behavior of those who stimulate these concerns may have already displayed overtly the inability to do and so the ability to self-govern is already suspect.

    The system you described would work for those with some ability to self-govern. (I believe, this was the contention of our forefathers regarding the constitution. It would work only if those under it shares certain common values.) Those short of that ability to self-monitor and govern (what it may mean, defined by the group, not but one's judgmentalism) may need a different approach for the good of pinside as a community.

    1) If moderators do not have the ability to move a post from one topic to another to decrease noise to signal ration, empower them to do so.

    2) Hold an election for members on a review board. The purpose of this group is to address concerns and if needed determine sanctions Anyone can be nominated. Three nominations needed to be considered, and you and the moderators decide who sits on this board. The board would consist of an odd number of members to avoid deadlocks. The members would be required to have been a pinsider for a period of time and by their contribution and reputation meet the standards set forth by pinside. The board acts in oversight on topics and behavior outside the agreed-upon standard. The board cannot be addressed directly from members about concerns or individuals, but its members address concerns among only themselves and determine what is to be addressed. The board communicates with individuals on a PM basis expressing its concerns. If the issue goes unaddressed by the member the board has addressed, it is empowered with the ability to enforce a sanction like a loss of posting privileges, reply privileges or both.

    Like the law, this approach cannot motivate acceptable behavior, only act as a deterrent against the transgression of agreed upon standards, and so possibly help to curtail it.

    I wouldn't see the above as being executed regularly, but there could be cases that it is need.

    Pinsiders should determine what this is forum is about, and all-inclusivity regarding behavior may not be it. Thanks.

    #25 12 years ago

    Great idea Robin!

    #26 12 years ago

    This is an awesome idea! I've been wanting some form of a "thanks" button for a while. Now in a sense we get a "thanks" button and a "shove off" button!

    #27 12 years ago

    That's a brilliant idea Robin!!!

    #28 12 years ago

    I like this a lot. Thanks for the information and the consideration!

    #29 12 years ago

    Sounds like a solution, however it wouldn't be necessary if everyone was a little more mature and treated this forum and fellow Pinsider's posts with more respect. I am pretty certain, the nonsense will continue, and the unwanted flagging will identify who is not being nice. I just hope that the moderators will quickly resolve problems and give warnings to those who fail to understand that this is a community of people who enjoy pinball, not porn. It really doesn't matter whether you are straight, gay, male, female, a young adult, or a clever child who frequently visits this website. We all come here for pinball, and we should all consider the diverse crowd that enjoys this site before ruining it for others.

    #30 12 years ago
    Quoted from MrWizzo:

    The system you described would work for those with some ability to self-govern. (I believe, this was the contention of our forefathers regarding the constitution. It would work only if those under it shares certain common values.) Those short of that ability to self-monitor and govern (what it may mean, defined by the group, not but one's judgmentalism) may need a different approach for the good of pinside as a community.

    Robin:

    After rereading your plan, I now realize now that the value of what you describe is not to inspire self governance directly but through peer review possibly achieve that goal in others and allow it to assist those who chose to let the ratings help guide their reading choices.

    Apologies if needed. This is a great forum, and I am glad to be part of it.

    Maybe this is a good example of B.R.s suggestion of having the ability to delete one's own post.

    Considering changing my name from Danj to DOHDan.

    #31 12 years ago

    I've seen a similar system abused on other sites before. Good Old Games is one example. They had to change it because it was being abused so much. I think it would be better to have the Pinball Bar be 18+ or 21+. That way anything outside of it can easily be moderated if it isn't family safe. I suppose there would need to be a family safe OT as well. That said, I'm willing to give this new system a shot.

    #32 12 years ago

    Nice work....I come here to nerd it out about pinball and not much else.

    #33 12 years ago

    That's great, and I feel the same way, except there are members on here that don't. No matter what you do or say, that's not going to change. As long as intolerance and bigotry are accepted, not much else is going to change either.

    Quoted from n2kenai:

    It really doesn't matter whether you are straight, gay, male, female, a young adult, or a clever child who frequently visits this website. We all come here for pinball, and we should all consider the diverse crowd that enjoys this site before ruining it for others.

    #34 12 years ago

    Very clean solution sir. Let's give it a shot. Thanks.

    #35 12 years ago

    Super idea Robin - keep our pinball site about pinball. If people want the other stuff, they can always Google it.

    #36 12 years ago

    I rate this thread +3

    #37 12 years ago

    Well, if it don't work you can all ways change it back and work on another method. Lets take it for a test drive and see how it goes...No guts, no glory! No pain, no gain! No....ummmm ....no more whitty sayings!

    #38 12 years ago

    Great! Thanks for the positive feedback, everyone. We should be able to make this work, just like all other community features that make the Pinside great: the map, ratings, rating comments and more.

    I also think that getting feedback on your posts can be refreshing! And there's even more possibilities based on this system (if it works well):
    - forum "karma", resulting in...
    - most helpful forum poster of the week, month, year
    - best scoring thread
    - a way to get appreciation for good posts
    - identify people who only post "crap"
    - ..

    As for the pinball bar, I might have to exclude that from the forum home page, giving that decision some some thought.

    Danj, I really appreciate your well written feedback, never mind you misread my post I still appreciate it.

    I hope to build this system this week, I was also finalizing some other additions, so it will be one big update to the site once again!

    #39 12 years ago

    I don't see how this would work. Sure, it'll probably hide some posts for some people, but it is likely to hide posts that shouldn't be hidden (because of abuse) and it is likely to show posts that should be hidden (because there will effectively be a delay before a number of honest pinsiders have read and rated the post).

    It could be an option for the poster to rate his own post, but then again that would require a honest and considerate poster and if the poster was honest and considerate he wouldn't post this bullshit in the first place.

    What is the reasoning for allowing this in the first place ? Why am I allowed to force fellow pinheads - including children - to be exposed to porn and other sexist attitudes, but I'm not allowed to discuss who should be president ?

    We don't want anybody to be upset by politics, race, religion or hate. But apparently it is totally acceptible to upset other users with porn and sexism.

    On a pinball site.

    Why ?

    #40 12 years ago

    Nevermind...

    #41 12 years ago
    Quoted from PinHog:

    I don't see how this would work. Sure, it'll probably hide some posts for some people, but it is likely to hide posts that shouldn't be hidden (because of abuse) and it is likely to show posts that should be hidden (because there will effectively be a delay before a number of honest pinsiders have read and rated the post).
    It could be an option for the poster to rate his own post, but then again that would require a honest and considerate poster and if the poster was honest and considerate he wouldn't post this bullshit in the first place.
    What is the reasoning for allowing this in the first place ? Why am I allowed to force fellow pinheads - including children - to be exposed to porn and other sexist attitudes, but I'm not allowed to discuss who should be president ?
    We don't want anybody to be upset by politics, race, religion or hate. But apparently it is totally acceptible to upset other users with porn and sexism.
    On a pinball site.
    Why ?

    It's the reason for the change. You just discribed it in a nut shell so to speak. Once you catch on to how it works (see it in action) you will understand it better. As Robin discribed in the authering post, YOU control the content you see by adjusting the settings in your profile. Play it safe and set your's to +1.

    Robin, that should be the default setting and members can change it as they see fit.

    #42 12 years ago
    Quoted from jrrdw:

    Play it safe and set your's to +1.

    That would hide posts I want to see. For instance, the for sale post that nobody else cares enough about to rate it relevant.

    It would also make it very hard to keep track of what threads contain new posts, at least for those of us who visit the site many times every day. (The new posts would be invisible during one visit to the site, they become visible before the next visit but by then they're not new anymore.)

    Once again, why is this necessary in the first place - on a PINBALL site ?

    #43 12 years ago

    I think this will work because there is only a small percentage of people who get out of line and a big number of people who can help moderate them. There also a bunch of people opposed to any kind of moderation (who want to read all, good, bad and ugly) and they are allowed to do so too.

    That's why the idea is called moderation for the masses.

    This proposed system has nothing to do with the fact that I don't want religion, racism or politics on the Pinside (or anything else causing wars around the globe). This system is also not intended to battle porn (which by the way is also not allowed on the Pinside). It's there as a way for the community to rate fellow Pinsiders contributions and hopefully upping the level of discussion on this forum while at the same time allowing freedom of (pinball) speech.

    Example: I could do a rant about why I hate the new AC/DC backglass. But instead of writing a good post with my reasoning I just say "it effin sucks". Well most Pinsiders would agree that this is not a post that contributes to the site and will flag it as -1 and this will in turn hide it (by deault) from users who choose not to view -1 content.

    Additonally, the "not safe for work/family" filter will in fact be useable by the poster himself too. For example, NimblePin* can flag his Selma posts as NSFW/F himself. People who have the filter enabled will then have to manually "unfold" his post (as show in the second screenshot of my opening post) IF they CHOOSE to see his post. Moderators can even hold posters accountable for not flagging their uploads or posts appropriately.

    * Sorry NP for using you as an example

    #44 12 years ago

    I'M NEW BUT I HAVE A SUGGESTION:

    I might suggest something more fun...something pinball specific. Say a plus only system where really great posts can be giving an Extra Ball. I think this would be really usefull when asking for help. If someone has posted a good answer simply give that post an Extra Ball, to reinforce that answer. Personally, I don't like the negative aspect of a scoring system, I think it just brings out more, well...negativity.

    As for postings that have no place in Pinside, how about a Tilt Warning. Get enough warnings and the topic becomes hidden. Users can still view the topic by clicking on a Tilt Warning logo, but that way everyone who doesn't want to view it knows its contents might be NSFW. Users should tag their own posts / topics with Tilt Warning.

    #45 12 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    But instead of writing a good post with my reasoning I just say "it effin sucks". Well most Pinsiders would agree that this is not a post that contributes to the site and will flag it as -1 and this will in turn hide it (by deault) from users who choose not to view -1 content.

    Yeah, that will probably be good WHEN it works as intended. In reality, it is more likely to hide posts that I want to see.

    As you obviously want to provide a system to allow porn and sexism, why stop there ? Why not allow options for racism as well ? After all, nobody would have to read it if they didn't want to.

    Why is this necessary in the first place - on a PINBALL site ?

    #46 12 years ago

    If you are referring to the Felix the Cat images, they were removed by a moderator as soon as he spotted them. But this still caused dozens of people to have to see them. This would have been avoided by a vote system were the post would have been voted invisble in an instant.

    What I'm trying to accomplish here is use the power and collective wisdom of all the visitors to moderate the site contents collectively.

    Again, porn and nudity are no allowed here but not always obvious as being such. That is the gray line we talked about earlier today. I for one am not too happy with such images on the Pinside but not always around to moderate them (due to the time dif)

    Lpeters82, I really like your approach and will definitely keep this in mind when working on this. Keep it positive, I like that!

    Robin out (bedtime here).

    #47 12 years ago
    Quoted from PinHog:

    As you obviously want to provide a system to allow porn and sexism, why stop there ? Why not allow options for racism as well ? After all, nobody would have to read it if they didn't want to.

    Why is this necessary in the first place - on a PINBALL site ?

    I think that's a stretch. In my nearly 3 years of being a Pinsider, I've never seen actual "porn". Naked women yes, but no porn.

    So I'm guessing the NSFW/F filter is a word filter you have to twik?

    #48 12 years ago

    I don't trust the power and collective wisdom of any group of people as much as you do. It's just too easily abused.

    Anyway, I can see that I'm not getting my points across and as a newbie I obviously don't carry any weight in here. That gives me some freedom as I don't have too much time invested in this place, and if things don't improve I will just leave.

    Nuff said.

    #49 12 years ago
    Quoted from PinHog:

    I don't trust the power and collective wisdom of any group of people as much as you do

    It is a pretty good group as a whole, PH. Things ebb here, though. We will have certain times when people seem angry, we have days where suggestive pictures seem to rule, then we have the great majority of the time when the forum seems like a small group of "friends" sharing some laughs, dreams and advice.

    I hope you find the joys here.

    Cheers, TG

    #50 12 years ago

    Sounds great!

    Now if we can just get people to use better topic titles instead of:

    "I was thinking..."
    "How many people..."

    Use descriptive titles people!

    Sorry, pet peeve.

    Great work, Robin!

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