(Topic ID: 279148)

Pinside average game values are not realistic in 2020


By d0n

3 months ago



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  • 141 posts
  • 57 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 66 days ago by DocFinlay
  • Topic is favorited by 7 Pinsiders

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    #51 3 months ago

    Stern Nine Ball is valued at 1K. I'll take a project game at that price if anyone has one to sell.

    #52 3 months ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    Well, I see so many “less than desirable” titles jacked to $4k+ after the owner, usually a noob, finds out his uncle has a Genesis in the basement, buys it for $500, dumps a little into restoring it, Does a basic shop job, all LEDs, powder coated everything, new reproduction plastics, new targets, new playfield, new Translite/BG and then throw it up on CL for $5000... yeah, that’s doing us all a lot of favors for sure...

    A different subject altogether, but I find most of that stuff unappealing and avoid games like that. IMO, that person took a decent original survivor game and bastardized it. People replace far too many parts that are totally fine (not talking about consumables like pluger/link, balls, sleeves).

    #53 3 months ago

    Probably not going to happen but Pinside should just charge a listing fee for games and not a commission approach to machine for sale ads. This would probably help the average price algorithm.

    #54 3 months ago

    While I do agree that occasionally Pinside pricing can be a little off, depending on your region, for the most part I think it's pretty accurate. I always use the Pinside average-price as my starting price for any given game. I think of the average-price as the base-price for an average-shape game. Not mint and not roached. Then I plus/minus for the actual cosmetic and physical condition of the game, as well as any mods, improvements, defects, and things like that present on the pin. Giving special bonuses to things that are hard to replicate/repair, such as an immaculate PF or cabinet on an older game, but then not giving as much credit for things I can easily do myself like LEDs and rubber.

    I do this when buying and when selling, so it's all fair. And basically I've found that it's held pretty true in my experience. I always at least break even this way, and I feel like I'm giving each of us (buyer and seller) a fair shake . That's my system, other people have other systems, but mine has so far worked well for me.

    #55 3 months ago
    Quoted from Pinballlew:

    Probably not going to happen but Pinside should just charge a listing fee for games and not a commission approach to machine for sale ads. This would probably help the average price algorithm.

    That would also prevent those who consistently skirt paying those small commission fees AFTER a sale!

    #56 3 months ago

    BTW, from what I've seen the median average (i.e. the price that is halfway between he highest priced and the lowest priced pins that sold). Therefore, in most instances there is plenty of room to sell much higher for a high quality version of a title.

    You can also view the archived sales and sort by date/price/etc. By doing more granular research, you should be able to get an accurate idea of what pins in similar condition in recent months sold for, and therefore educate yourself and potential buyers.

    #57 3 months ago
    Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:

    BTW, from what I've seen the median average (i.e. the price that is halfway between he highest priced and the lowest priced pins that sold). Therefore, in most instances there is plenty of room to sell much higher for a high quality version of a title.
    You can also view the archived sales and sort by date/price/etc. By doing more granular research, you should be able to get an accurate idea of what pins in similar condition in recent months sold for, and therefore educate yourself and potential buyers.

    Exactly, it's more of a starting point rather than an end in and of itself.

    #58 3 months ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    Well, I see so many “less than desirable” titles jacked to $4k+ after the owner, usually a noob, finds out his uncle has a Genesis in the basement, buys it for $500, dumps a little into restoring it, Does a basic shop job, all LEDs, powder coated everything, new reproduction plastics, new targets, new playfield, new Translite/BG and then throw it up on CL for $5000... yeah, that’s doing us all a lot of favors for sure...

    Oh sure, I understand that - that's why ebay exists. Hopefully the buyer can get in touch with someone that really knows value.

    #59 3 months ago

    Along with forcing sellers to disclose sales price & charging a listing fee instead of a selling fee (when listing a game for sale), pinside could make seller check box on games specific condition and click a box for the sellers region or state. So, if you were trying to research what a TZ in players quality is worth in the west (maybe california) in 2020 you could open archived sales (or do a search in a new classifieds search function!?) and look for that area and game condition and BAM, there's your real life, current value! Pinside is missing the boat and could easily become THE HUB for used pinball game valuation. It's a tool that pinball sellers and buyers use daily.

    #60 3 months ago
    Quoted from moto_cat:

    Seems to be your method,
    46 unsold
    “Decided to keep “. Hmm

    This is why Pinside needs to start upfront game sale ads. This will weed out a lot of problems.
    If someone cant pay an upfront fee to list a 1000-10000, well thats just plain greed and your in the wrong hobby.
    Many car sites charge upfront listings.

    #61 3 months ago
    Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

    This is why Pinside needs to start upfront game sale ads. This will weed out a lot of problems.
    If someone cant pay an upfront fee to list a 1000-10000, well thats just plain greed and your in the wrong hobby.
    Many car sites charge upfront listings.

    A listing fee is a great idea. Currently it is too easy to list a game and then take down the listing with zero consequence. If you paid a fee to list a game for sale, there's a good chance you'll price it accurately & leave it up until it sells. "Fishing" & "don't need to sell" ads would be cut down drastically too. $5 for a game up to $1000, $10 up to $2000, $15 from $2k to $4999, $20 $5k - $8999k and $25 $9k and up.

    #62 3 months ago
    Quoted from d0n:

    A listing fee is a great idea. Currently it is too easy to list a game and then take down the listing with zero consequence. If you paid a fee to list a game for sale, there's a good chance you'll leave it up until it sells OR you wouldn't throw that overpriced bait into the water to see if someone bites. $5 for a game up to $1000, $10 up to $2000, $15 from $2k to $4999, $20 $5k - $8999k and $25 $9k and up.

    Ive emailed Robin several times with almost the exact same scale.

    #63 3 months ago
    Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

    Ive emailed Robin several times with almost the exact same scale.

    I guess that tell us all we need to know aboot you guys' idea

    #64 3 months ago
    Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

    Ive emailed Robin several times with almost the exact same scale.

    robin needs to think about his revenue stream.

    #65 3 months ago
    Quoted from d0n:

    robin needs to think about her revenue stream.

    He is a dude. Nice guy.

    Quoted from TheLaw:

    I guess that tell us all we need to know aboot you guys' idea

    Well, this one. Robin has implemented a few of my ideas.

    #66 3 months ago

    I use to follow subscription Auction sold prices. Sold prices can be valuable in the antiques/collectables Market. Sold prices are not anyones business unless they want to pay for the knowledge.
    It is difficult pricing anything that is not a commodity, Pins are not a commodity. A lot of people act like they want set prices for pins, it will never happen. Pinside recommendations will never be more than entertaining reading.
    Could believe Waterworld is a 3000 dollar pin in this over-inflated Market, and it will go up in 1000 dollar increments like several others have in the past 18 Months.
    Just remember we have yet to see the full fallout of economic downturn yet, but its coming.

    10
    #67 3 months ago
    Quoted from Tomass:

    To be fair, he thinks Waterworld is a $2800 pin. So maybe he does have 46 unsold.

    damnit man, i sold a waterworld for $1400. I feel so cheap and used.

    10
    #68 3 months ago

    Op is a habitual negative individual. Op wants to over price his stuff and everyone else is wrong for not letting him. /story

    #69 3 months ago
    Quoted from ccbiggsoo7:

    damnit man, i sold a waterworld for $1400. I feel so cheap and used.

    That might be the going price for a beater like the one on location at PHOF. I saw a Waterworld listed locally that looked like new, and at $2200 it was sold in about 45 minutes. I seriously had enough time to go bio, watch a YouTube video on the game, go back to the listing and it was sold. Maybe in the best interest of my wallet but that’s another story

    If it sells in 45 minutes, it’s underpriced.

    #70 3 months ago

    I think I would agree with others that when buyers base their offer on Pinside prices, it's a good starting point but does not take into account condition of the machine.

    How can you really believe a seller based on pictures or description if you can't see it in action? There's too many potential problems that can't be shown from pictures or text.

    Any time I buy a game from afar I have to consider that what looks like a 7/10 is probably really a 4/10 or a 5/10 especially from an unknown seller or someone who doesn't speak the language of repairing boards, playfield, or cabinet.

    10
    #71 3 months ago
    Quoted from d0n:

    robin needs to think about his revenue stream.

    Yeah how about if you want to list a game for sale you need to contribute to Pinside. There’s so many jagbag gray heart 50+ for sale ad “sold elsewhere “ or “decided to keep” guys on here.

    #72 3 months ago

    For most games I generally agree it’s a good starting point, and actually based on sold prices. Not what people ask.

    High volume games are better represented here. Newer sterns that sell a lot, things like than.

    But, games that have had their value change greatly in the last few years won’t be well represented, or games that don’t come up often.

    Check out Space Jam at $1400. Not saying this is a great game. But I guarantee if you post this game in average working condition for the estimated price it would be sold in under 5 minutes.
    There are other examples like this, just saying

    #73 3 months ago
    Quoted from d0n:

    Honestly, it's really difficult to sell a game through pinside. Mostly due to the pinside average game values being so far off. Then, based on the incorrect average values... the price police trash the game, the asking price and the seller in a subsequent attached forum post that all potential buyers see, most buyers aren't local and want shipping but most sellers don't want to ship, sellers want cash on the glass not an electronic payment etc etc etc.
    But there are obviously LOTS and LOTS of sales on pinside each month. Those sales could be better categorized and data compiled & presented for members in a more useable way.

    Sorry but that’s not really true. We have sold some 15 pins over the last two months via pinside (listed on one of our volunteers accounts not mine). The bottom line is you want high dollar and complain when people aren’t offering high dollar or considering the amazing deals you are offering that pinside is ruining your sales with artificially low estimated prices. A machine is worth what it’s worth. If you list it and someone pays it then it is worth that amount. If they don’t then it isn’t. We listed at or just below the estimated price. Money left on the table ? Sure. But I didn’t have 15 pins just sitting there waiting to get my price. And before you go saying that we are just throwing cash away here, I have some 15 video cabs listed elsewhere. Only sold a handful. Why ? Well pins are more sought after, but honestly because my prices are too high. Now I can argue all day long that the cabs are worth more sold off as parts (they are) or that I paid $X (and I did overpay thru coinopwarehouse that gets sales at prices nobody else seems to achieve), but it’s all irrelevant. People will pay what they think it is worth. If it’s sitting and you don’t want it to sit then lower the price.

    #74 3 months ago
    Quoted from pookycade:

    Sorry but that’s not really true. We have sold some 15 pins over the last two months via pinside (listed on one of our volunteers accounts not mine). The bottom line is you want high dollar and complain when people aren’t offering high dollar or considering the amazing deals you are offering that pinside is ruining your sales with artificially low estimated prices. A machine is worth what it’s worth. If you list it and someone pays it then it is worth that amount. If they don’t then it isn’t. We listed at or just below the estimated price. Money left on the table ? Sure. But I didn’t have 15 pins just sitting there waiting to get my price. And before you go saying that we are just throwing cash away here, I have some 15 video cabs listed elsewhere. Only sold a handful. Why ? Well pins are more sought after, but honestly because my prices are too high. Now I can argue all day long that the cabs are worth more sold off as parts (they are) or that I paid $X (and I did overpay thru coinopwarehouse that gets sales at prices nobody else seems to achieve), but it’s all irrelevant. People will pay what they think it is worth. If it’s sitting and you don’t want it to sit then lower the price.

    "I mean... your points make a ton of sense, but.... I think I would rather just complain on pinside that they should raise all the prices so I can more easily prey on unsuspecting buyers." OP (Probably)

    #75 3 months ago
    Quoted from DudeRegular:

    Op is a habitual negative individual. Op wants to over price his stuff and everyone else is wrong for not letting him. /story

    Awww that's just mean. I don't believe we have ever even met. Yet, you have me pigeon holed as a " habitual negative individual" and are willing to post that "fact" publicly? Interesting. I will admit the numerous a-holes on pinside do bring out my negative side but I am not a negative individual IRL.

    I have almost 500 public reviews (over 4 years) of me as a human being/airbnb host and of my arcade that would challenge your ridiculous off the cuff assumptions of me. Maybe you come stay at my airbnb, play my 50 games and then report back to pinsiders about how terrible of a person I am? I'd even offer you a free stay. What's normally over $200 a night can be yours for free just because I am a habitually nice guy... and you are not. https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/17170419?source_impression_id=p3_1602359591_xNEcXsp3V8ueCkSZ

    -8
    #76 3 months ago
    Quoted from pookycade:

    Sorry but that’s not really true. We have sold some 15 pins over the last two months via pinside (listed on one of our volunteers accounts not mine). The bottom line is you want high dollar and complain when people aren’t offering high dollar or considering the amazing deals you are offering that pinside is ruining your sales with artificially low estimated prices. A machine is worth what it’s worth. If you list it and someone pays it then it is worth that amount. If they don’t then it isn’t. We listed at or just below the estimated price. Money left on the table ? Sure. But I didn’t have 15 pins just sitting there waiting to get my price. And before you go saying that we are just throwing cash away here, I have some 15 video cabs listed elsewhere. Only sold a handful. Why ? Well pins are more sought after, but honestly because my prices are too high. Now I can argue all day long that the cabs are worth more sold off as parts (they are) or that I paid $X (and I did overpay thru coinopwarehouse that gets sales at prices nobody else seems to achieve), but it’s all irrelevant. People will pay what they think it is worth. If it’s sitting and you don’t want it to sit then lower the price.

    If you just sold 15 games at or below pinside average, you left a t-o-n of money on the table. That's fine. You're entitled to sell your games for whatever price you want (need) to. As am I. I don't know you but sadly, it sounds like you had a commercial property/failed business that needed to be liquidated & vacated ASAP due to covid and nonpayment of rent.

    #77 3 months ago
    Quoted from ccbiggsoo7:

    damnit man, i sold a waterworld for $1400. I feel so cheap and used.

    wow, when back in 2015?

    #78 3 months ago
    Quoted from d0n:

    Honestly, it's really difficult to sell a game through pinside. Mostly due to the pinside average game values being so far off. Then, based on the incorrect average values... the price police trash the game, the asking price and the seller in a subsequent attached forum post that all potential buyers see, most buyers aren't local and want shipping but most sellers don't want to ship, sellers want cash on the glass not an electronic payment etc etc etc.
    But there are obviously LOTS and LOTS of sales on pinside each month. Those sales could be better categorized and data compiled & presented for members in a more useable way.

    If you don't start a for sale thread there is no price police to trash the game.

    -3
    #79 3 months ago
    Quoted from RyanStl:

    If you don't start a for sale thread there is no price police to trash the game.

    When the price police think a game is over priced THEY start the for sale thread that's tied to the listing.

    Added 94 days ago:

    How can 3 people vote this down? It is common knowledge that ANY pinball game for sale listing on pinside can be "discussed in a forum post" that can be started by anyone on pinside. For any reason, someone can sully your for sale post with an attached thread about how the price is too high, the game condition is bad or the seller "is a habitually negative person".

    It's a fact. How can people down vote this?

    #80 3 months ago
    Quoted from d0n:

    wow, that's thought provoking and mind altering. I would have NEVER thought of that. Thank you

    Sorry, but it didn't seem so if you constantly had price police problems. Why not post without thread and let it sit, parallel post on FB and CL, and see what platform it sells first on? You don't need visibility of a thread where people are free to comment, good or bad.

    With that said, I do believe based on what people are selling their games for Pinside estimate is low and need to be adjusted in ways you and other have suggested. Games I have recently been looking back appear to be above the top end of Pinside by a few hundred with no intention to negiotiate.

    #81 3 months ago
    Quoted from RyanStl:

    I do believe based on what people are selling their games for Pinside estimate is low and need to be adjusted in ways you and other have suggested. Games I have recently been looking back appear to be above the top end of Pinside by a few hundred with no intention to negiotiate.

    Right. That's because the pinside average value is accounting for sales from 5+ years ago. The $3500 sale of a dirty, players quality TZ 5 years ago should have NOTHING to do with the price of a shopped, clean & LED'ed TZ today. Why average it in in 2020? It's absurd. Why would any seller negotiate below the incorrect pinside average when we all know it's WAY OFF? The real question is why does no one do anything to make it more accurate?

    #82 3 months ago

    Seems to me that the main problem on determining the value of a particular machine is in "grading" the condition of the particular machine and the value of added mods.
    Reminds me of the discussion when buying a used car.
    The same situation exists with purchase of rare coins.
    People become experts at grading those coins to determine the value and they even get a title and get paid for being a numismatic.
    Companies are founded on that principal and some of those coins that are professionally evaluated are desired by many people, due to the established value that comes from these experts that is universally accepted.
    And just like when you buy a used car, people don't want to pay for the undercoat or floor mats that are added by a dealer.
    They search for the dealer that will give them those "adders" for free.
    The value is often in the eye of the beholder.

    #83 3 months ago
    Quoted from Dent00:

    and the value of added mods.

    I think the general consensus is that mods don't actually add a lot of value to a game. They're more of a personal preference thing that the next buyer may hate and simply remove.
    Kind of like putting rims, a fart can exhaust and a kickass stereo system on a honda accord. Sure it cost you $4000 but did it really add value to the car?

    #85 3 months ago
    Quoted from d0n:

    I think the general consensus is that mods don't actually add a lot of value to a game. They're more of a personal preference thing that the next buyer may hate and simply remove.
    Kind of like putting rims, a fart can exhaust and a kickass stereo system on a honda accord. Sure it cost you $4000 but did it really add value to the car?

    Depends on the mod...color dmd, PDI glass, Cliffy protectors add value in my mind....there are some other mods from the really custom guys that also add value i.e. Loirs POTC mods, and the witch and monkey mod for WOZ...most of the other mods certainly add value, but its unrealistic for a seller to recoup all that money.

    #86 3 months ago
    Quoted from d0n:

    I think the general consensus is that mods don't actually add a lot of value to a game. They're more of a personal preference thing that the next buyer may hate and simply remove.
    Kind of like putting rims, a fart can exhaust and a kickass stereo system on a honda accord. Sure it cost you $4000 but did it really add value to the car?

    I would disagree to a point. There are many desirable mods, and some are even no longer available which adds to the value. However, sticking some Hotwheels or cheap action figures on the playfield doesn’t do squat for the value.

    #87 3 months ago

    As someone who sells only very intermittently I have no idea on the value of my pin. Do I sell my em for $500, $1000 or more? I use the average value as a good number and then adjust based on my machines condition. It’s about the only reference I have

    1 week later
    #88 3 months ago
    Quoted from ccbiggsoo7:

    damnit man, i sold a waterworld for $1400. I feel so cheap and used.

    To be honest I would not let my Waterworld go for less than $2500... and right now it is not for sale anyway...

    14
    #89 3 months ago
    Quoted from Lathroum:

    To be honest I would not let my Waterworld go for less than $2500...

    Lucky for you

    Quoted from Lathroum:

    ... and right now it is not for sale anyway...

    Lucky for everyone else

    #90 3 months ago

    Never understoo the Gottlieb Hate. They are great entry level games. Fun to play. Lots of features. Quit drinking the Kool-Aid on here about what is good and what is not. I don't hate any pins. I love to play them all (except Williams Big Ben EM, just kidding... I would still play it) Have you ever played Waterworld? One of the best Ball Locks and Multiballs in pinball. Cool features and a fairly decent rule set if you take the time to learn how it works. Some easy shots, and a few hard ones. Lots of modes. Sits right next to my Rescue 911... Life force mode anyone?

    #91 3 months ago
    Quoted from Lathroum:

    Never understoo the Gottlieb Hate. They are great entry level games. Fun to play. Lots of features. Quit drinking the Kool-Aid on here about what is good and what is not. I don't hate any pins. I love to play them all (except Williams Big Ben EM, just kidding... I would still play it) Have you ever played Waterworld? One of the best Ball Locks and Multiballs in pinball. Cool features and a fairly decent rule set if you take the time to learn how it works. Some easy shots, and a few hard ones. Lots of modes. Sits right next to my Rescue 911... Life force mode anyone?

    My hate comes from firsthand experience. I couldn't stand R911 and couldn't get rid of it fast enough. It is nearly impossible to NOT get multiple multiballs per game. That and those flippers that can trap a ball from an inlane just took all the fun and challenge out of the game. Genesis was better than that but still not Williams quaility of play. To each their own though. If you like them that is a bonus for you since they can be had cheaper than others.

    #92 3 months ago
    Quoted from Lathroum:

    Never understoo the Gottlieb Hate. They are great entry level games. Fun to play. Lots of features. Quit drinking the Kool-Aid on here about what is good and what is not. I don't hate any pins. I love to play them all (except Williams Big Ben EM, just kidding... I would still play it) Have you ever played Waterworld? One of the best Ball Locks and Multiballs in pinball. Cool features and a fairly decent rule set if you take the time to learn how it works. Some easy shots, and a few hard ones. Lots of modes. Sits right next to my Rescue 911... Life force mode anyone?

    maybe I'm guilty of the unfounded hate too but its just everything about them I don't like...the shape of the flippers turns me off, the fonts used on the DMDs turn me off, the typically bad audio, there is no theme they have ever done that resonates with me at all. I will admit I have never played waterworld. I will give any game a chance, I believe every game is worth playing at least once!

    I would definitely love to have a TX-Sector someday, that one I can get excited about. I cant lie!

    #93 3 months ago

    Waterworld is a terrible game, paid $1000 for one and felt ripped off, luckily traded for pinbot a few months later!

    #94 3 months ago
    Quoted from oropuro:

    Waterworld is a terrible game, paid $1000 for one and felt ripped off, luckily traded for pinbot a few months later!

    I would have given you your $1k back for it in a heartbeat and happily taken a Waterworld home.

    #95 3 months ago

    Pinside needs to charge an upfront fee on all listings (hell I'd have paid a lot more but I'd be cool with it) and issue a small credit back for marking the sale price of a machine.

    #96 3 months ago
    Quoted from Tomass:

    My hate comes from firsthand experience. I couldn't stand R911 and couldn't get rid of it fast enough. It is nearly impossible to NOT get multiple multiballs per game. That and those flippers that can trap a ball from an inlane just took all the fun and challenge out of the game. Genesis was better than that but still not Williams quaility of play. To each their own though. If you like them that is a bonus for you since they can be had cheaper than others.

    I've restored two R911 games. It's not a very challenging game, so it's not really a title I like for my personal collection, but the helicopter is a really neat mechanism and it's an instant hit with new players, so it's been a great game to bring to shows for people to play.

    #97 3 months ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    I've restored two R911 games. It's not a very challenging game, so it's not really a title I like for my personal collection, but the helicopter is a really neat mechanism and it's an instant hit with new players, so it's been a great game to bring to shows for people to play.

    I don't begrudge anyone who likes them, but they are definitely not for me. I also do not drink any koolaide Pinside dishes out. If that was the case I would hate just about everything in some way.

    #98 3 months ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    I've restored two R911 games. It's not a very challenging game, so it's not really a title I like for my personal collection, but the helicopter is a really neat mechanism and it's an instant hit with new players, so it's been a great game to bring to shows for people to play.

    Feel the same about R911. If it had a more complex ruleset, I could see owning it. I like to have great tourney games as my keeper collection. Alot of Gottlieb DMD era games have weird mystery rules that make it unfair in competition.

    #99 3 months ago

    Sold two of my EM's on Pinside in about a week and got good reviews. Reported my prices and was happy. Still have one left and still unsure what I am going to do with that one positive all around.

    #100 3 months ago

    I love my R911. The theme, the modes, one thing I really appreciate is that it automatically gives you a second ball if it drains too fast. I usually get 10 balls per game!

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    ModFather Pinball Mods
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